Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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arshyam
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 12 Jan 2018 21:25

Cross-runway operations begin at city airport - The Hindu

In an effort to curtail flight delays, the Airports Authority of India (AAI) began cross-runway operations at the Chennai airport on Thursday.

Officials said simultaneous operation of the runways would increase aircraft movement from 36 to 42 an hour. “It is a trial run that will go on for 10 days. After that we will see what changes have to be incorporated before it can be continued,” an official said.

According to a press release from AAI, there were eight departures from secondary runway, five from main runway and nine arrivals on the main runway on Thursday. There were a total of 22 movements in 55 minutes. At present, the airport witnesses more than 330 aircraft movements a day. The AAI has planned a slew of airside developments recently to cater to the increasing passenger traffic and the growing number of flight services. Recently, a new taxiway ‘Mike’ was commissioned with which an increase in the number of aircraft movement was made possible, officials said. Also, they plan to have two Rapid Exit Taxiways and straighten the existing taxiway ‘Bravo’.

“There are a total of 24 taxiways in the airport now. This is essential because air traffic has been increasing at the rate of 10% here,” said an official. Also, several airlines have increased their services. “The amount of time an aircraft stays on the runway has also decreased after the new taxiway operations began. From about 75-80 seconds for an aircraft, it has come down to 70 seconds now. We want to bring it down further,” the official said. The cross-runway operations are resuming at the airport almost after a decade. “If the work to construct two RETs and straightening of ‘Bravo’ taxiway are completed, then cross-runway operations cannot be continued,” an official said.


The only issue is that the second runway cannot be used for a landing as it is over a river. But it is a start, I guess.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 12 Jan 2018 21:39

Chennai airport to have tunnel to connect to satellite terminal - The Hindu

Image

With a tunnel underneath to transport passengers and baggage, the Chennai airport is likely to have a satellite terminal soon to cater to the growing passenger traffic. For this, the Chennai Metro Rail has been roped in to see how tunnelling can be carried out in the apron area of the airport.

This project is likely to cost around ₹700 crore.

Officials said the Airports Authority of India (AAI) had held discussions with Metro Rail officials recently in this regard.

“The tunnel will be at a depth of 10.5 feet and for a distance of 1.5 km from the main terminals to the satellite terminal, which will be located near the remote parking bays. There will be two tunnels running underneath, one for passengers and another for baggage,” an official said.

The primary reason for a satellite terminal was the greenfield second airport getting delayed, sources said. Once the new terminals, to be built as part of phase II modernisation project, get saturated this will help in managing the growing passenger traffic till the second airport is built, sources added.

Also, most airlines prefer the main parking slot for their aircraft since it is convenient, due to which the remote bays mostly remain unused, officials said.

“When this plan is executed, airlines will begin to use those remote bays as well,” he added.

₹500 crore estimate

Chennai Metro Rail has given an estimate of ₹500 crore for tunnelling work alone, sources said.

According to officials of Chennai Metro Rail Limited (CMRL), they will need to know what runs underneath the airside before they begin to carry out the tunnelling work.

“It will be challenging to carry out this work and we will need to know the flight schedule on a day-to-day basis to plan the work,” he added.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 12 Jan 2018 21:41

Do regulations allow tunnels under a runway? A taxiway is one thing, many airports around the world have them, but this is first I am seeing that might go under a runway.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 12 Jan 2018 21:59

A very good set of recent posts, folks. Thanks for getting this back on track!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Jan 2018 22:03

arshyam wrote:Cross-runway operations begin at city airport - The Hindu

In an effort to curtail flight delays, the Airports Authority of India (AAI) began cross-runway operations at the Chennai airport on Thursday.

Officials said simultaneous operation of the runways would increase aircraft movement from 36 to 42 an hour. “It is a trial run that will go on for 10 days. After that we will see what changes have to be incorporated before it can be continued,” an official said.

According to a press release from AAI, there were eight departures from secondary runway, five from main runway and nine arrivals on the main runway on Thursday. There were a total of 22 movements in 55 minutes. At present, the airport witnesses more than 330 aircraft movements a day. The AAI has planned a slew of airside developments recently to cater to the increasing passenger traffic and the growing number of flight services. Recently, a new taxiway ‘Mike’ was commissioned with which an increase in the number of aircraft movement was made possible, officials said. Also, they plan to have two Rapid Exit Taxiways and straighten the existing taxiway ‘Bravo’.

“There are a total of 24 taxiways in the airport now. This is essential because air traffic has been increasing at the rate of 10% here,” said an official. Also, several airlines have increased their services. “The amount of time an aircraft stays on the runway has also decreased after the new taxiway operations began. From about 75-80 seconds for an aircraft, it has come down to 70 seconds now. We want to bring it down further,” the official said. The cross-runway operations are resuming at the airport almost after a decade. “If the work to construct two RETs and straightening of ‘Bravo’ taxiway are completed, then cross-runway operations cannot be continued,” an official said.


The only issue is that the second runway cannot be used for a landing as it is over a river. But it is a start, I guess.


This is where ATC has to be more vigilant to ensure there are no incursions between the taxiways and runways of not just aircraft, but other ground vehicles as well. Given the number of operations, they may have to consider installing an Airport Surface Detection Equipment (ASDE) radar. DEL was suppose to have an ASDE-X installed several years ago. I think I may have seen it from a distance back in 2016, but can't recall.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Jan 2018 22:09

arshyam wrote:Do regulations allow tunnels under a runway? A taxiway is one thing, many airports around the world have them, but this is first I am seeing that might go under a runway.


There probably are guidelines from ICAO, EASA and FAA on this. Runway integrity is the issue over time and most likely this tunnel will have to be very deep relative to tunnels underneath taxiways.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Jan 2018 22:16

deejay wrote:
To avoid getting into unconfirmed personal news kind of situation, I will quote this article though it could have been much more comprehensive on all developments:

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/my-world/shiva-statue-delhi-no-more-tall-order-dial




Thank deejay. So it has become an issue of mitigation rather than moving the statue. With an additional runway planned, and given the traffic growth with heavy fog, they may have to consider a Precision Approach Radar (PAR) instead of an ILS with a localizer. Of course of all of this costs money.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby VKumar » 12 Jan 2018 22:28

Mumbai has a small airport at Juhu. This is unsuitable for conversion to the size required for commercial operations. Helicopters and flying school uses this one. During the 65 and 71 wars there were Gnats stationed here.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 12 Jan 2018 22:50

There were plans a couple of years back to extend the Juhu airport runway (on the sea) to enable shifting of operations of Corporate/Private jets and 50-70 seater planes there. The Environment mafia nixed it.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby rajkumar » 12 Jan 2018 23:50

arshyam wrote:Do regulations allow tunnels under a runway? A taxiway is one thing, many airports around the world have them, but this is first I am seeing that might go under a runway.


Yes London Heathrow has tunnels from Terminal 5 to Satellite terminals. The satellite terminals are equipped with the gates.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Jan 2018 03:16

One way to increase the capacity of Delhi, Mumbai, Blore and chennai would be to make it mandatory flying large wide body aircrafts, between thease cities.
Currently there must be some 70 flights on the Del-Mumbai route alone. Most flown by 737 size. Had they used A380, the flights could have been cut down to 15.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Raveen » 13 Jan 2018 04:11

Rishirishi wrote:One way to increase the capacity of Delhi, Mumbai, Blore and chennai would be to make it mandatory flying large wide body aircrafts, between thease cities.
Currently there must be some 70 flights on the Del-Mumbai route alone. Most flown by 737 size. Had they used A380, the flights could have been cut down to 15.

ROFL - you do realize that despite the name, these aren't busses...and those aircraft (the 777s, 380s) are optimized for longer distance and higher altitude flying. You'd have a better shot flying a 787 between the metros than the 737, but the distances are too short.
Not to mention passengers would lose convenience and timing options.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2018 05:21

Japan has long operated 747 in high density seating on major domestic routes. Some of the inter metro fights could be b777 or a330 in all economy class easily all these flights are 1000km or more except bgl chennai

Limited slots at major apts due to business and reciprocal rules was one of a380 marketing points

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 13 Jan 2018 07:47

rajkumar wrote:
arshyam wrote:Do regulations allow tunnels under a runway? A taxiway is one thing, many airports around the world have them, but this is first I am seeing that might go under a runway.


Yes London Heathrow has tunnels from Terminal 5 to Satellite terminals. The satellite terminals are equipped with the gates.

Thanks, are they across the runway itself?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 13 Jan 2018 07:55

Raveen wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:One way to increase the capacity of Delhi, Mumbai, Blore and chennai would be to make it mandatory flying large wide body aircrafts, between thease cities.
Currently there must be some 70 flights on the Del-Mumbai route alone. Most flown by 737 size. Had they used A380, the flights could have been cut down to 15.

ROFL - you do realize that despite the name, these aren't busses...and those aircraft (the 777s, 380s) are optimized for longer distance and higher altitude flying. You'd have a better shot flying a 787 between the metros than the 737, but the distances are too short.
Not to mention passengers would lose convenience and timing options.

AI did (and perhaps does) operate the B-777 on the DEL-MAA route. In addition, there are some 788s on this route as well. The south routes are long enough for widebodies, and there is a lot of demand.

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 73705.html

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby James » 13 Jan 2018 08:22

I think that Jet has also deployed an A330 on a morning departure from Mumbai to Delhi. Given that the NMIA will take at least 3 more years to commence operations, existing and future passenger traffic growth, limited no. of slots at CSIA, i’d be surprised, if we DON’T see more wide body aircraft on trunk domestic routes from BOM.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 13 Jan 2018 09:36

arshyam wrote:Do regulations allow tunnels under a runway? A taxiway is one thing, many airports around the world have them, but this is first I am seeing that might go under a runway.


Looks like Sydney and Dubai have road tunnels under runways.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=341603

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby rajkumar » 13 Jan 2018 19:40

arshyam wrote:
rajkumar wrote:
Yes London Heathrow has tunnels from Terminal 5 to Satellite terminals. The satellite terminals are equipped with the gates.

Thanks, are they across the runway itself?


No not across runways but across the parking apron at Terminal 5. However there are tunnels which go under the runways and are used to transfer luggage between terminals.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 13 Jan 2018 20:50

I posted this a few pages back and it is still the best explanation of our quandrary, IMHO.

We have added just one extra runway over the past 50 years. But have added many new and glitzy terminals.

Why?

Because our airports need the non-aviation revenue streams provided by the terminals to produce profits.

The solution must come from better financial arrangements which allow airports to concentrate on more aeronautic infrastructure first and worry the revenue streams later.

https://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2017/11/opinion-indias-lopsided-airport-expansion-one-runway-50-years.html

Only one runway in 50 years. India’s lagging airport expansion.

...

Airport capacity
The ability of airports to accommodate flights depends on three major elements:

*Runway and taxiway capacity determine the number of aircraft movements (ATMs or landings and departures) per hour that can be accommodated

*Airside infrastructure includes the size of the aprons, number of parking bays, contact (aero-bridge) stands, non-contact (ladder) stands, air traffic control, etc.

*Terminal capacity determines the number of passengers that can pass through the terminal(s).

The weak link – runway capacity

Like the strength of a chain depending on its weakest link, the smallest of the above three elements determines the final capacity of an airport. Airport companies have lavishly spent on creating glitzy terminals, but have failed to provide a proportionate share of their capital expenditure to runway and airside capacity.

...

The airport disconnect: fancy terminals but no new runways

Passenger demand continues to grow. Yet airports are focused on building larger and fancier terminals. In fact, the newer terminals look like shopping malls with boarding gates attached, rather than the other way around. Unfortunately, this situation is driven by non-aeronautical revenues being critical to airport profitability. Cost over-runs are common, and passengers are often inconvenienced by having to pay more, walk more, and wait more.


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2018 21:18

Rishirishi wrote:One way to increase the capacity of Delhi, Mumbai, Blore and chennai would be to make it mandatory flying large wide body aircrafts, between thease cities.
Currently there must be some 70 flights on the Del-Mumbai route alone. Most flown by 737 size. Had they used A380, the flights could have been cut down to 15.

No. Apart from the error pointed out by raveen there is another issue. I can travel from blr to delhi/mumbai almost any time of day - making it very convenient. But when it comes to a place like Vadodara - there are only 1-2 flights at odd times. How nice it would be if I could get to practically any town or city by air morning, noon or night depending on convenience.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2018 09:27

yesterday 18 flights were diverted out of madras early morning due to "Bhogi" bonfires creating a layer of smoke.
this despite chennai having Cat3x system.

a true khulasa would be how many LCC train their pilots for this, despite the plane and ground systems having it available? during the delhi winter fog boo boo i heard that only AI has trained all its pilots of that sector.

also the Cat3C the media talks of a complete zero visibility landing, it seems is not deployed anywhere in world (?) as it only gurantees a safe landing onto the runway but additional high precision ground taxi systems are needed to take it across the taxiways to the gate and civilian GPS is not accurate enough esp with other large ac in close proximity. there are some special airports like Paris CDG that apparently has such systems and operates 365 days no matter what the conditions. It however needs fitment of equipment on a/c probably. there is talk of HUD, FLIR on civilian a/c to help with zero visibility flying and ground taxi in bad visibility.

US airports tend to shut down if snow or rain escalates.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Jan 2018 15:05

a) CAt 3 requires 75 meters RVR... so like its not 100% blind b) Shiv... i stay in Woodbury Towers..Surajkund Delhi/Faridabad border. :eek: not a ivory tower. I drive often between Delhi Amritsar...house to house its like 503 Km ... which I can easily do in 8 hours with one 30 min stop in a WagonR and about 30/40 min less if in Innova type car. and i do this every month. and also trains .. My ancestral place is Khurja ( UP) which is like 80 km away. Till about 4 years back it took me almost 3 hours to reach my place but now it takes around 90 min... Yes, I dont travel so much by air within india..maybe 5/6 times a year. Going to Bengluru tomorrow (onward to Madikeri) to escape delhi winter. I took the smaller ATR to/fro Bengluru/ Mangalore in May 2016 and it was only 50% full both ways. U conveniently shifted the goalpost ..of about travelling in a rush... i thought u were talking about everyday commute for work. I would like to know how many on the forum know people who do daily commute to work by air?? I dont think there are enough rich people who can afford daily commute by air for work espicially from smaller town.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Jan 2018 15:09

i mean cat3 installed in indian airports/DGCA regulations..

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Jan 2018 20:44

Adult diapers are made for times like this. :wink:


twitter

Turkish Air News

@AnalystTK 7h7 hours ago

Pegasus Airlines skidded out of the runway at Trabzon Airport. New photos in daylight shows Boeing 737 next to the sea. Photos from different Turkish media.

Image


Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2018 22:18

manjgu wrote: I would like to know how many on the forum know people who do daily commute to work by air?? I dont think there are enough rich people who can afford daily commute by air for work espicially from smaller town.


I know people who commute twice a week to work. By air. In India They are paid by their companies. When I want to travel 500 km - I do not want to be the hero I was in the old days and drive 8 hours. I fly. If you book early - you can get flights as cheap as 1500. You are welcome to state what you do but do not reach conclusions about others. Remember that a big car that gives you 15 km per liter long distance burns 65 liters in 1000 km. Multiply that by Rs 70 (current price of petrol) and you pay Rs 4500. Also - if you service your car every 12,000 km/1 year - it would add about Rs 15000 in a year - or Rs 1250 for a 1000 km trip. In effect you are paying Rs 5750 for each 1000 km round trip. But you think "rich people fly"

You know how much it cost me to fly to Chennai and back 2 weeks ago from Blr Rs 3000 for the round trip. Same trip by same big car same price petrol would have cost me 3000 also - but taken 12 hours (both ways) plus driving fatigue and need for rest stops.

If there were flights to the towns that you travel to - you would find that far better than driving. And not as expensive as you imagine.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 15 Jan 2018 08:14

a) the amritsar example was to show u the approx travel times. I am not for a moment alluding that someone should do 8 hrs every day. 400+ km is not doable daily often but certainly twice a week. 8 out of 10 people whom I know who do Delhi >chandigarh frequently prefer to drive down ( self or a driver) rather than fly ( around 240km). b) i cant see ur original post where u had given example of USA..people doing daily commute ( not in a rush or bi weekly). Bi weekly is v different from daily commute. I mean if somebody needs to fly daily to a place X for work then better he stay there ( unless there is some other pressing reason). it was in context of daily commute that I had said I would like to know how many of us know such people? c) the maths u have provided is v impressive but something which mango man like me do... car ka average kitna hai..toll tax kitna hai. The business people / senior executives dont bother with these mundane things ( atleast in north india) . In delhi chandigarh example the flexibility of starting at own time with a car plus the availability of a vehicle in chandigarh outweighs flying. d) I am sure you are aware majority of routes run by airlines are loss making which is made up by profitable routes like Delhi > srinagar, Delhi > Mumbai..Delhi > bengluru and few other metro routes. I would think the need is of comfortable fast trains.. to connect cities in 300 to 500 km radius.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Jan 2018 09:43

manjgu wrote: maths u have provided is v impressive but something which mango man like me do... car ka average kitna hai..toll tax kitna hai. The business people / senior executives dont bother with these mundane things ( atleast in north india) . In delhi chandigarh example the flexibility of starting at own time with a car plus the availability of a vehicle in chandigarh outweighs flying. d) I am sure you are aware majority of routes run by airlines are loss making which is made up by profitable routes like Delhi > srinagar, Delhi > Mumbai..Delhi > bengluru and few other metro routes. I would think the need is of comfortable fast trains.. to connect cities in 300 to 500 km radius.

You are saying own car and fast trains will be better than air travel. That is your opinion.

Air travel has literally "taken off" in the last 10-15 years and can become much cheaper with effective feeder liner aircraft of 10-30 seats serving small towns. Time is money and trains are simply too slow and overbooked because they are cheap. Fast trains are not going to come soon because of infrastructure and land acquisition problems.

India is big enough and rich enough to have a good air feederliner service to small towns. Your rich poor argument is wrong. You are saying that people are rich enough for car and fast trains but too poor for air travel. That does not sound like impressive maths to me. In fact better than car and train for hundreds of thousands of people are luxury buses that have freely available tickets that can be booked at the last minute after trains are overbooked. It only indicates that as more and more people travel - a wider choice of travel facilities makes sense. There will always be arguments "Our people are too poor." "Someone is making a loss". "Someone will make a loss" "I prefer driving". These are simply excuses. For a place like Bangalore - it may take you 3 hours to drive from 200 km away, but it will then take 2 more hours to drive into Bangalore from the outskirts because of clogged roads. As people buy more cars this will happen in all busy cities. Mass public transport including flights will be the only way forward. Car joy is for towns where people are only now finding out about cars maybe.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2018 09:49

>>will then take 2 more hours to drive into Bangalore from the outskirts because of clogged roads.

that is true for any airport also. only the old HAL airport is in middle of town.

also consider volvo and scania type buses which drive as fast as cars but very comfortable and no need to drive oneself. and they start from major points in cities.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 15 Jan 2018 09:54

shiv wrote:
manjgu wrote: maths u have provided is v impressive but something which mango man like me do... car ka average kitna hai..toll tax kitna hai. The business people / senior executives dont bother with these mundane things ( atleast in north india) . In delhi chandigarh example the flexibility of starting at own time with a car plus the availability of a vehicle in chandigarh outweighs flying. d) I am sure you are aware majority of routes run by airlines are loss making which is made up by profitable routes like Delhi > srinagar, Delhi > Mumbai..Delhi > bengluru and few other metro routes. I would think the need is of comfortable fast trains.. to connect cities in 300 to 500 km radius.

You are saying own car and fast trains will be better than air travel. That is your opinion.

Air travel has literally "taken off" in the last 10-15 years and can become much cheaper with effective feeder liner aircraft of 10-30 seats serving small towns. Time is money and trains are simply too slow and overbooked because they are cheap. Fast trains are not going to come soon because of infrastructure and land acquisition problems.

India is big enough and rich enough to have a good air feederliner service to small towns. Your rich poor argument is wrong. You are saying that people are rich enough for car and fast trains but too poor for air travel. That does not sound like impressive maths to me. In fact better than car and train for hundreds of thousands of people are luxury buses that have freely available tickets that can be booked at the last minute after trains are overbooked. It only indicates that as more and more people travel - a wider choice of travel facilities makes sense. There will always be arguments "Our people are too poor." "Someone is making a loss". "Someone will make a loss" "I prefer driving". These are simply excuses. For a place like Bangalore - it may take you 3 hours to drive from 200 km away, but it will then take 2 more hours to drive into Bangalore from the outskirts because of clogged roads. As people buy more cars this will happen in all busy cities. Mass public transport including flights will be the only way forward. Car joy is for towns where people are only now finding out about cars maybe.


Shiv ji, distances < 900km, HSR is better than air travel.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 15 Jan 2018 10:13

a) The feeder routes to small towns as of today are making losses for airlines.... there is not sufficient demand inspite of the low fares that prevail as per u.b) which towns in ur opinion can be served by such a service if we take example of Delhi, Mumbai ( if u r familiar with these 2 cities ). c) I am saying cars will be better than air travel for distances upto 250 Km... and fast train better than air travel in the range of 300 to 500 .. all figures approx.. ofc its my opinon just as air travel being better is urs.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 15 Jan 2018 10:48

Singha wrote:yesterday 18 flights were diverted out of madras early morning due to "Bhogi" bonfires creating a layer of smoke.
this despite chennai having Cat3x system.

a true khulasa would be how many LCC train their pilots for this, despite the plane and ground systems having it available? during the delhi winter fog boo boo i heard that only AI has trained all its pilots of that sector.

US airports tend to shut down if snow or rain escalates.


Pilots are trained but the constraint is the airports being equipped with CAT 2 & 3 A/B ILS.
Airports in India have been extremely slow to implement this even when funds are sanctioned. When airports are affected by fog for 2-3 days in winter (e.g. Bangalore), the airport (private airports can decide on their own) does not want to invest in an expensive upgraded ILS.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 15 Jan 2018 11:08

manjgu wrote:a) The feeder routes to small towns as of today are making losses for airlines.... there is not sufficient demand inspite of the low fares that prevail as per u.b) which towns in ur opinion can be served by such a service if we take example of Delhi, Mumbai ( if u r familiar with these 2 cities ). c) I am saying cars will be better than air travel for distances upto 250 Km... and fast train better than air travel in the range of 300 to 500 .. all figures approx.. ofc its my opinon just as air travel being better is urs.


In general a vehicle (ideally a bus) is better than air upto 250 km as you suggest, though the congestion in our cities - which increases road travel time would also make helicopters a viable option for time constrained business travellers. A HSR is the best option for distances upto 500km, but as Shiv mentions, this will not be an option for several years, so there will continue to be demand for air travel to smaller cities within 3-500 km of larger hubs. What makes air travel in its current form unviable for shorter distances is:
- Choice of aircraft: The A320 and B737 are far too expensive in terms of Cost per seat km, for shorter distances. The ATR or Q400 is better, (as will be the Embraer jet over a longer distance) but we don't have too many of them.
- Lack of slots at hub airports - and high charges (which translate to a high cost per km over a short distance).

There is therefore scope to deploy light aircraft (e.g. Saras) operating from new `no frills' airstrips (e.g. Juhu in Mumbai) for services to small towns.
It will also result in private jets moving out of hub airports , which would slightly augment their capacity.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 15 Jan 2018 14:07

James wrote:I think that Jet has also deployed an A330 on a morning departure from Mumbai to Delhi. Given that the NMIA will take at least 3 more years to commence operations, existing and future passenger traffic growth, limited no. of slots at CSIA, i’d be surprised, if we DON’T see more wide body aircraft on trunk domestic routes from BOM.


In general, given the distances between major city pairs in India and demand, the A320 & Boeing 737 derivatives are best aircraft, in terms of
`Cost per seat km' (CASK). A bigger aircraft results in a higher CASK. Since there is limited scope to increase fares, a higher CASK results in fewer tickets (lower load) and hence losses.
At current fuel prices, a private airline breaks even at about 80% load. 2017 was the first year in which the major airlines (excl AI) reported
80% + loads even in the non peak season. a 10% rise in ATF or a 10% reduction in avg. load (which will happen with larger capacity aircraft) is enough to convert a profitable airline to loss making. Hence, it is only when there are sustained high loads, that airlines look at increasing their aircraft capacity.

Increasing the capacity of individual aircraft implies that if the aircraft is on a route with lower passenger demand, the loss on that route, from a higher capacity aircraft will increase. There is also a lot of complexity in multiple aircraft types or in operations (e.g. if a higher capacity aircraft is unavailable, how are passengers accommodated in a regular (lower capacity) aircraft ?

That said, my feeling is that the industry will start moving towards the A321 (replacing some A320's) and the B 737 800 & 900 series (both are available in the new configuration (MAX for Boeing and NEO for Airbus). These have about 20 more seats, giving a 10% capacity increase with least downside risk to profitability.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 15 Jan 2018 20:27

Deans ..a) also there is nothing like a no frills airport. it has to be a regular airport..security..perimeter security..QRT..sniffer dogs..loaders..ATC..cleaning staff.. taxi ...etc etc. this has a cost. They built a v fancy airport in Jaisalmer or some other city in Rajasthan which lies unused !! IIRC. b) IMHO there is not enough economic activity to make such feeder service useful currently. Only states like Karnataka,,Gujarat..TN..AP have some degree of real industrialization/ incomes. c) also there is a pattern to passenger traffic.. morning shatabdi is full of businessmen going to delhi to collect payments etc.. make deals .. who spend 4/5 in delhi before catching the evening shatabadi. So morning people from small towns go to bigger towns and return in evening. flights also mimic this pattern. Its easier to get booking on morning shatabadi going out of delhi to Amritsar as compared to evening shatabdhi.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 15 Jan 2018 22:57

If successful, this will herald a new age in India that will go far beyond just airlines. Think of all PSU’s and how we can release their assets into the rigor, energy and innovation of the private sector.

Think even HAL and the naval shipyards. It will make us more like the Amreeki model. If we can successfully transform a lumbering behemoth like AI then all others are fair game.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/0RG5twyzu4M6LQRUGRMcuK/Air-India-privatisation-India-to-split-airline-into-four-co.html

Govt to break up Air India into four parts to speed up privatisation process
Air India and Air India Express will be sold as one unit while its regional aviation arm, ground handling and engineering operations will be hived off separately

Last Published: Mon, Jan 15 2018. 09 17 PM IST

New Delhi: The proposed privatisation of Air India Ltd has gained momentum, with the government deciding to break the airline into four units and offer to sell at least 51% in each of them besides transferring most of the non-core debt owed by the carrier to its own balance sheet.

The core airline business comprising Air India and Air India Express—the low-cost overseas arm—will be offered as one company, and the process will be completed by the end of 2018, minister of state for aviation Jayant Sinha said in an interview with Bloomberg on Monday. Its regional arm, ground handling and engineering operations will also be sold separately in the same process.

“The aviation sector is a very fast growing sector, with really exciting opportunities for all participants, so we felt all of this will unlock growth and competitiveness of Air India group,” Sinha said. “We expect it to be a very bright future for its employees.”

On the weekend, Sinha told Network 18 in an interview that the government may keep a stake in the airline as well.

“If Air India does extremely well going forward, which is what we hope it will do, then the residual stake that we will have in Air India will become quite valuable and that will enable us to pay down the debt that the government will be absorbing as part of the disinvestment process,” he said, referring to carmaker Maruti Suzuki India Ltd which after disinvestment has “become very very valuable”.

...

The airline has a fleet of about 140 planes, with a 17% share of traffic on routes linking India to international destinations and about 13% share of the domestic market.

The national carrier, which is part of the world’s biggest airline grouping, Star Alliance, also has prime slots at airports across the world as also land banks and buildings among its assets.


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 16 Jan 2018 00:28

manjgu wrote:Deans ..a) also there is nothing like a no frills airport. it has to be a regular airport..security..perimeter security..QRT..sniffer dogs..loaders..ATC..cleaning staff.. taxi ...etc etc. this has a cost. They built a v fancy airport in Jaisalmer or some other city in Rajasthan which lies unused !! IIRC. b) IMHO there is not enough economic activity to make such feeder service useful currently. Only states like Karnataka,,Gujarat..TN..AP have some degree of real industrialization/ incomes. c) also there is a pattern to passenger traffic.. morning shatabdi is full of businessmen going to delhi to collect payments etc.. make deals .. who spend 4/5 in delhi before catching the evening shatabadi. So morning people from small towns go to bigger towns and return in evening. flights also mimic this pattern. Its easier to get booking on morning shatabadi going out of delhi to Amritsar as compared to evening shatabdhi.


Mangju, While I don't disagree with your points, I think airports can be made more no frills than they are now. The biggest cost is land acquisition, which can be handled if LCC operate from more distant airports connected by better roads. (Like Ryanair and easyjet). Why should there airports
need air-conditioning, wifi etc. Airline staff handling security and check in can be shared (currently it is not possible).

Time of day does influence plane loads. The problem is that the aircraft had to fly throughout the day (6.5- 7.5 flights a day in India) at a high load.
People from almost every location in India would ideally like to reach Delhi at the start of the business day, but that is not possible.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 16 Jan 2018 12:10

We have a stellar example of Low Cost Airport. Cochin International.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 17 Jan 2018 10:55

2017 is termed as the Safest year ever for Aviation Travel. Not a single jet accident or not a single live lost. Though some serious accidents happened e.g. Fan module loss from French A380. But overall pretty impressive feat. As of today the chances of a Jet involving in an accident is 1 is 16 Million.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 17 Jan 2018 20:33

Air India to be split in four parts, sold
India will break up its debt-burdened flag carrier into four separate companies and offer to sell at least 51 percent in each of them as part of a disinvestment proposed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The core airline business comprising Air India and Air India Express -- the low-cost overseas arm -- will be offered as one company, and the process will be completed by the end of 2018, Junior Aviation Minister Jayant Sinha said in an interview Monday. Its regional arm, ground handling, and engineering operations will also be sold separately in the same process.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 18 Jan 2018 04:42

chola wrote:I posted this a few pages back and it is still the best explanation of our quandrary, IMHO.

We have added just one extra runway over the past 50 years. But have added many new and glitzy terminals.

Why?

Because our airports need the non-aviation revenue streams provided by the terminals to produce profits.


While that is certainly one reason, the other and IMHO more important one is land acquisition headaches. Runways and accompanying exits and taxiways need a lot more land to build than expanding terminal buildings. There were plans of a third runway in the original plan for BOM after GVK took over but they dropped it after it was clear the land needed would be impossible to acquire.


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