Bharat Rakshak

I wonder why they didn't declare an emergency. I've been binge-listening to ATC recordings and transcriptions here - https://www.youtube.com/user/victor981994/videos - noticed that less serious issues got the pilots to declare an emergency (I guess to get priority on airspace movements and landing).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45624436
Is this one of the world's most beautiful airports?

India's 100th airport, inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the northern-eastern state of Sikkim on Monday, is arguably one of the world's most beautiful.Sikkim, a tiny former kingdom in the Himalayas, is home to Kanchenjunga, the world's third-highest mountain. The state is connected to Tibet, Bhutan and Nepal through eight mountain passes.The state's first airport at Pakyong, some 30km (18 miles) from the state capital, Gangtok, and carved out of a mountainside has been described as an "engineering marvel".

perhaps AN32 can fly into such places but without a large apron and good roads leading out of it, the ability to induct special forces and top brass is all this gives.

Per this WSJ article, Comac C919 program saved GE's struggling avionics group

How China Systematically Pries Technology From U.S. Companies

Beijing leans on an array of levers to extract intellectual property—sometimes coercively

Full article onlee for paid customers...below is excerpt.

When China set out to build its first large commercial passenger jet in 2008, state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China made clear it would buy components only from joint ventures whose foreign partners would share technology. General Electric Co. agreed.

GE’s venture with state-owned Aviation Industry Corp. of China now is a main supplier of avionics for the domestic C919 aircraft. The joint venture helped GE avoid writing down a struggling avionics unit, according to former and current GE employees.

GE says “there was never a write down at our avionics business, nor was there risk of one.” It says, referring to intellectual property, that GE is “highly sensitive to the protection of our IP whether in our wholly-owned operations or in our” joint ventures.

they are slowly homing in on the crown jewels ... the LEAP/Adaptive cycle engine technology both via covert IP theft and bland bullying to share things.

and after that rampart falls...the day of the dog shall dawn, my friends...

Once upon a time US ran campaign to beg borrow steal textile tech from UK. The world has always been like this.

srin wrote:I wonder why they didn't declare an emergency. I've been binge-listening to ATC recordings and transcriptions here - https://www.youtube.com/user/victor981994/videos - noticed that less serious issues got the pilots to declare an emergency (I guess to get priority on airspace movements and landing).

didn't he have more than an hours' worth of fuel left??

maybe, that's why the mayday call wasn't made??

if short of fuel, there is one mcguire afb in southern new jersey some 60km south of newark that operates C5, C17 heavy haulers of air logistics command. a 777 can land on that runway.
but their ATC may not be meant for civilian airliner processing.

chetak wrote:

srin wrote:I wonder why they didn't declare an emergency. I've been binge-listening to ATC recordings and transcriptions here - https://www.youtube.com/user/victor981994/videos - noticed that less serious issues got the pilots to declare an emergency (I guess to get priority on airspace movements and landing).

didn't he have more than an hours' worth of fuel left??

maybe, that's why the mayday call wasn't made??

A news article said they had 7200 kg of fuel left, and that it was not enough to divert to Albany or other nearby airports. Dont know whether to trust the news article or not. I dont know what is the SOP for carrying extra fuel. Surely there should be enough to divert and land at an airport 30 minutes away. If they did not have that, somebody did not do their job.

I hope there is a thorough investigation as to how there can be a mass failure of cockpit electronics. This has to be extremely rare. Aircraft was not that old.

Singha-
It is possible that the AFB may have had bad weather too.

They seems to have spent time in trying to land at JFK while systems failed one by one that might explain why it went low on fuel. Also for diversion, you not only needs to reach there but should have enough fuel to do couple of passes in case you may not be able to land in very first attempt. Since the large geographical area was under bad weather, the pilots might not have had enough confidence on landing in first attempt.
The pilots deserve some kind of award for their great job. I wonder if FAA has started inquiry on why all three systems failed at a time. This is very serious AW matter and the AWB should be working really hard to get this issue resolved ASAP else they should issue AW advisory for all planes flying with same systems onboard.

JayS wrote:They seems to have spent time in trying to land at JFK while systems failed one by one that might explain why it went low on fuel. Also for diversion, you not only needs to reach there but should have enough fuel to do couple of passes in case you may not be able to land in very first attempt. Since the large geographical area was under bad weather, the pilots might not have had enough confidence on landing in first attempt.
The pilots deserve some kind of award for their great job. I wonder if FAA has started inquiry on why all three systems failed at a time. This is very serious AW matter and the AWB should be working really hard to get this issue resolved ASAP else they should issue AW advisory for all planes flying with same systems onboard.

atleast 2 civil airports close by had landable weather- per article. The thing about extra landing passes is well known and is factored into the fuel calc for any flight. If they were short in fuel was it because they took off with less? This must be determined. FAA should get on this double time.

Presence of bad weather was also known and is to be expected and planned for- happens all the time in flying. multiple equipment failures in one shot is just weird.

I haven’t travelled on indigo for a while and travelled today, these guys are now charging for window and aisle seat is this the trend ? while poor AI acts as a good boy and still gets beaten up

suryag wrote:I haven’t travelled on indigo for a while and travelled today, these guys are now charging for window and aisle seat is this the trend ? while poor AI acts as a good boy and still gets beaten up

Saar, AI tickets are already way costlier than IndiGO or GoAir. Even Jet Airways must be finding it difficult to compete with these two with large fleet of A320NEOs doing 8 rounds a day at peak capacity.

Anyhow I think Air India now is profitable on operating basis. But its too little too late.

suryag wrote:I haven’t travelled on indigo for a while and travelled today, these guys are now charging for window and aisle seat is this the trend ? while poor AI acts as a good boy and still gets beaten up

I don't see anything wrong with it. It is their choice to charge us for any excuse and it is out choice.. not to travel within them. They are in business of profit and I personally don't have any problem with it. If you know some air company is getting away with such tactics... I would strongly advised you invest in their share

Having said that as long as they declare their prices before we reach the airport, I am fine. I am against blackmail, where you are asked to fork out in the airport. And regularization against price fixes b/w the companies.

Flying is a privellege, not a right.

nam wrote:

suryag wrote:I haven’t travelled on indigo for a while and travelled today, these guys are now charging for window and aisle seat is this the trend ? while poor AI acts as a good boy and still gets beaten up

I don't see anything wrong with it. It is their choice to charge us for any excuse and it is out choice.. not to travel within them. They are in business of profit and I personally don't have any problem with it. If you know some air company is getting away with such tactics... I would strongly advised you invest in their share

Having said that as long as they declare their prices before we reach the airport, I am fine. I am against blackmail, where you are asked to fork out in the airport. And regularization against price fixes b/w the companies.

Flying is a privellege, not a right.

The airline is simply a service provider and it should know its place in the hierarchy.

There is simply no question of flying being a privilege. It most certainly is not. Tomorrow some guy will up and declare that using an auto riksha is a privilege, It never was and it will never be.

You simply have to buy a ticket, fulfill some legal requirements mostly related to security, be of sound mind and the airline has a limited responsibility to ensure that your presence on board does not endanger the safety of other passengers.

The rest is self-important, opinionated, and egotistic chicanery of an arrogant airline hustling in the marketplace and merciless using every trick in the book to gouge and fleece passengers.

Anyone talking only of the rights of airlines without talking about the rights of passengers is merely blowing smoke.

What happens to the rights of passengers in case of a fire on board?? Realistically, the safety of the window seat and middle seat passengers are at higher risk because in the stampede that is most likely to ensue, and because of a comparatively more restricted access to the escape route which is the aisle pathway to the emergency exits their safety may be compromised.

Do they get a higher rate of compensation in case of death??

As always, in an actual panic situation, it will be simply every man/woman for themselves and the rest be damned.

SriKumar wrote:

JayS wrote:They seems to have spent time in trying to land at JFK while systems failed one by one that might explain why it went low on fuel. Also for diversion, you not only needs to reach there but should have enough fuel to do couple of passes in case you may not be able to land in very first attempt. Since the large geographical area was under bad weather, the pilots might not have had enough confidence on landing in first attempt.
The pilots deserve some kind of award for their great job. I wonder if FAA has started inquiry on why all three systems failed at a time. This is very serious AW matter and the AWB should be working really hard to get this issue resolved ASAP else they should issue AW advisory for all planes flying with same systems onboard.

atleast 2 civil airports close by had landable weather- per article. The thing about extra landing passes is well known and is factored into the fuel calc for any flight. If they were short in fuel was it because they took off with less? This must be determined. FAA should get on this double time.

Presence of bad weather was also known and is to be expected and planned for- happens all the time in flying. multiple equipment failures in one shot is just weird.

Transcript of ATC conversation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FTw9TQtw38

What I was trying to say is you should have enough fuel to make couple of passes at the diverted airfield. So diversion + 2-3 landing attempts. They already did one approach to land at JFK and abandoned it due to ILS failure. They clearly spent lot of time at 2000ft trying to get ILS work multiple times. Quite a bit of time was also spent in enquiring at various airports for weather. The pilot wanted something like 600ft cloud ceiling for VNAV but best nearby available was 500ft in the vicinity. Flying that low for significant time would have reduced fuel quite quickly.

I dont see a reason to suspect the aircraft was tanked up lower than needed. However what is concerning is multiple failure of both ILS, both altimeters, TCAS, autoland, wind shear, auto breaks and even APU was out. Simply unacceptable. And the plane flew back immediately next day and was back in service.!! We raise hue and cry over much smaller issues for our products which might even remotely have any possibility of AW issue and try to make sure its not gonna be a trouble at war footing. I saw to such issues in recent past, both turned out to be non-critical eventually. But this thing seems to be taken rather lightly by everyone.

Is it usual to have such incidence..? Everything failing simultaneously should be a pretty rare even by design.

PS: The aircraft spent 38min from first failed approach to landing in air.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 860850.cms

It is unbelievable to me that it was allowed to fly (and worse, enter service). If it was allowed to fly the next day, I would assume that neither FAA or Boeing personnel had a chance to examine it. Trying to find a proximate (and root) cause of multiple systems failure (some unrelated like ILS and Aux. Power) should take a week at the least (not a day). I dont really understand this, unless it was something *really* obvious (like 'obvious visual damage to wiring' or something like that). I cannot see pilots wanting to fly an airliner where electrical systems are going kaput and the cause is unknown. I hope DGCA is looking into it and comes out with a public statement.

I looked for how much fuel is a plane 'expected' to carry. I did not find any reliable links...
This one has a discussion on it....so there is an FAA requirement, but I suspect airlines have their own policies.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746995

SriKumar wrote:It is unbelievable to me that it was allowed to fly (and worse, enter service). If it was allowed to fly the next day, I would assume that neither FAA or Boeing personnel had a chance to examine it. Trying to find a proximate (and root) cause of multiple systems failure (some unrelated like ILS and Aux. Power) should take a week at the least (not a day). I dont really understand this, unless it was something *really* obvious (like 'obvious visual damage to wiring' or something like that). I cannot see pilots wanting to fly an airliner where electrical systems are going kaput and the cause is unknown. I hope DGCA is looking into it and comes out with a public statement.

I looked for how much fuel is a plane 'expected' to carry. I did not find any reliable links...
This one has a discussion on it....so there is an FAA requirement, but I suspect airlines have their own policies.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746995

An Indian registered aircraft taking off from India and going to the US will address fuel, diversion and other issues based on Indian law and company procedures.

That said, DGCA requirements of fuel, diversions and operating procedures will not be so very different so as to directly conflict with US FAA mandated requirements.

And, finally, it is the sole decision of the aircraft captain to carry extra fuel, above and beyond the mandated fuel loads for that flight plan and destination, considering diversions, weather at destination, anticipated holding times etc.

A lot of captains do carry some extra fuel to be on the safer side.

After all, the pointy end usually hits the ground first, right??

SriKumar wrote:It is unbelievable to me that it was allowed to fly (and worse, enter service). If it was allowed to fly the next day, I would assume that neither FAA or Boeing personnel had a chance to examine it. Trying to find a proximate (and root) cause of multiple systems failure (some unrelated like ILS and Aux. Power) should take a week at the least (not a day). I dont really understand this, unless it was something *really* obvious (like 'obvious visual damage to wiring' or something like that). I cannot see pilots wanting to fly an airliner where electrical systems are going kaput and the cause is unknown. I hope DGCA is looking into it and comes out with a public statement.

I looked for how much fuel is a plane 'expected' to carry. I did not find any reliable links...
This one has a discussion on it....so there is an FAA requirement, but I suspect airlines have their own policies.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746995

By now, the aircraft is swarming with Boeing company investigators, AI company guys, DGCA as well as FAA guys. Everyone is a stakeholder in determining why what happened actually happened.

Other operators of similar aircraft are also keenly watching and awaiting the results of the investigations.

I suspect that it will not be so easy to release this particular aircraft for flight so quickly.

chetak wrote:

SriKumar wrote:It is unbelievable to me that it was allowed to fly (and worse, enter service). If it was allowed to fly the next day, I would assume that neither FAA or Boeing personnel had a chance to examine it. Trying to find a proximate (and root) cause of multiple systems failure (some unrelated like ILS and Aux. Power) should take a week at the least (not a day). I dont really understand this, unless it was something *really* obvious (like 'obvious visual damage to wiring' or something like that). I cannot see pilots wanting to fly an airliner where electrical systems are going kaput and the cause is unknown. I hope DGCA is looking into it and comes out with a public statement.

I looked for how much fuel is a plane 'expected' to carry. I did not find any reliable links...
This one has a discussion on it....so there is an FAA requirement, but I suspect airlines have their own policies.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746995

An Indian registered aircraft taking off from India and going to the US will address fuel, diversion and other issues based on Indian law and company procedures.

That said, DGCA requirements of fuel, diversions and operating procedures will not be so very different so as to directly conflict with US FAA mandated requirements.

And, finally, it is the sole decision of the aircraft captain to carry extra fuel, above and beyond the mandated fuel loads for that flight plan and destination, considering diversions, weather at destination, anticipated holding times etc.

A lot of captains do carry some extra fuel to be on the safer side.

After all, the pointy end usually hits the ground first, right??

I dont understand the tone behind the last comment. It seems like you are contradicting something I am saying? If so, I would refer you to a statement in the very post of mine you quoted, that says the same thing.

By now, the aircraft is swarming with Boeing company investigators, AI company guys, DGCA as well as FAA guys. Everyone is a stakeholder in determining why what happened actually happened.

Again, some 'galat family happening here..' This is would be my expectation too (As I had indicated in my post). I am going by JayS's comment that the aircraft has been flown since (and next day to boot).

SriKumar wrote:

chetak wrote:
An Indian registered aircraft taking off from India and going to the US will address fuel, diversion and other issues based on Indian law and company procedures.

That said, DGCA requirements of fuel, diversions and operating procedures will not be so very different so as to directly conflict with US FAA mandated requirements.

And, finally, it is the sole decision of the aircraft captain to carry extra fuel, above and beyond the mandated fuel loads for that flight plan and destination, considering diversions, weather at destination, anticipated holding times etc.

A lot of captains do carry some extra fuel to be on the safer side.

After all, the pointy end usually hits the ground first, right??

I dont understand the tone behind the last comment. It seems like you are contradicting something I am saying? If so, I would refer you to a statement in the very post of mine you quoted, that says the same thing.

By now, the aircraft is swarming with Boeing company investigators, AI company guys, DGCA as well as FAA guys. Everyone is a stakeholder in determining why what happened actually happened.

Again, some 'galat family happening here..' This is would be my expectation too (As I had indicated in my post). I am going by JayS's comment that the aircraft has been flown since (and next day to boot).

After all, the pointy end usually hits the ground first, right??

the pointy end is where the pilot sits.

He will worry about his safety before he starts to worry about yours.

GMR wins bid for expansion, devpt of Nagpur airport

The estimated cost of the project is Rs 1,685 crore and it will be based on design, build, finance, operate, transfer mode

At the end of the first phase of development by 2022, the annual passenger capacity will go up to 40 lakh from 10 lakh at present. As against the current annual capacity, Nagpur airport handled 19 lakh passengers in the financial year 2017. The passenger capacity surged by 14 per cent to 21 lakh during the financial year 2018

.

The plan is to construct a new runway that will be 4.5 kilometre long and 60 metre wide. Also, the bid-winner will have to construct the terminal building, hangars and a taxiway that can be used to evacuate aircraft to the two upcoming maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facilities. The airport currently has one MRO, run by Air India.

Similarly, a new apron, approach road, parking facility and better passenger services will have to be provided according to the contract. A world-class terminal building with an increased capacity for cargo and passenger planes will have to be built. The new airport will be able to handle a total 35 planes including two cargo planes.

IBNLIVE - the inter metro routes can easily take the A330/A350 sizes but issue is can they be kept running all day to and fro with full occupancy... ?
shortage of slots will surely drive this in.

MUMBAI: National carrier Air India is set to fly its 423-seater, double-decker Boeing 747 aircraft to two key domestic destinations, Mumbai and Kolkata, starting October 16 to meet the demand during the festive season.
With 12 seats in first class, 26 in business and 385 in economy class, the 'Jumbo' plane will operate one flight per day each to Kolkata and Mumbai from New Delhi between October 16 and October 21, Air India said in a statement.

Kolkata will be covered in the first phase and Mumbai in the second phase (November).

The 747 must be rather inefficient at such short distance. But perhaps AI can still manage to make money through inflated air fare during the Diwali season.

One question i had for gurus. The major problem with AI seems to be the debt it took to acquire the aircraft. Can a consortium of healthy PSUs pick up the debt and refinance it(because of their healthy balance sheet) at lower price for a stake in AI. AI will then be free of this burden and make good progress on international routes and make more money. Let them pay the dividend to GoI and to the PSUs and in return GoI will let the PSUs to have a seat in the board ?

It is the PSU mind set which needs to change. No use perpetuating inefficiency and throwing good money after bad.

Air traffic data up to and for August 2018
April-August:
DEL: +12.3%
BOM: +6.1%
BLR: +31.3%
HYD: +24.1%
MAA: +15.5%
COK: -0.4% (due to -45% in August during floods)

DEL has almost 30M pax in just 5 months, and is on track to top 70 million for the full fiscal year.
All monthly data at AAI traffic news data

I am confused. Is the entire Nagpur airport going to be owned by GMR i.e. privatization like Del/Mum or is this some part of the airport that they are doing?

Supratik wrote:I am confused. Is the entire Nagpur airport going to be owned by GMR i.e. privatization like Del/Mum or is this some part of the airport that they are doing?

Quite similar to DEL/BOM. 'Ownership' in the strict sense would always remain with the entity granting the airport development and operations concession to GMR, in this case MIHAN.

Ok yes, similar to Del/Mum.

http://www.uniindia.com/gmr-wins-bid-fo ... 66246.html

Despite not having the huge catchment area of delhi the bial continues to grow fast. Points to lot of migrants from all levels making a home in blr and doing good to afford flights

Carpenters masons ironworkers cooks et al now go by flights to jaipur udaipur lucknow varanasi patna bhubaneswar etc
Goodnumber of them earn 20-30k per month

Bial t1 capacity 21mil is handling 27 mil

In other words the 25 million capacity in Terminal 2 will be reaching saturation limit within the next 6-8 years. Is there any planning being done for another airport in Bangalore?

There is quite a bit of room for another terminal I think. Also, another parallel runway apart from the new one planned south side of the existing terminal.

yes another runway between the new runway and the huge KIADB industrial park on the heights should be possible, along with more terminal and support areas along the road.

bangkok suvarnabhumi is 60 million .... we need to reach the 50+ level asap to be considered a tier1 airport.

with mumbai continuing to axe its own feet and business migrating to pune, who knows inshallah BIAL could > MUM one day, just as we crossed CCU and MAS "its time for a change in the old order" ... the gates of the red fort are not far

MUM has already lost lot of gulf traffic as the gulf traffic flies directly from all over india

suryag wrote:One question i had for gurus. The major problem with AI seems to be the debt it took to acquire the aircraft. Can a consortium of healthy PSUs pick up the debt and refinance it(because of their healthy balance sheet) at lower price for a stake in AI. AI will then be free of this burden and make good progress on international routes and make more money. Let them pay the dividend to GoI and to the PSUs and in return GoI will let the PSUs to have a seat in the board ?

Its still money from the public trough, feeding a greedy, bloated, lazy and entitled pig with a lot of lipstick.

But per your idea, it should go now through many pockets to the very same source and ultimately be used to sustain a bunch of no good freeloaders just like its doing at present??

How does one calculate dividend on losses??

Singha wrote:Despite not having the huge catchment area of delhi the bial continues to grow fast. Points to lot of migrants from all levels making a home in blr and doing good to afford flights
Carpenters masons ironworkers cooks et al now go by flights to jaipur udaipur lucknow varanasi patna bhubaneswar etc
Goodnumber of them earn 20-30k per month

BLR is the new Gelf, which is awesome because it comes with Indian freedoms and the labour helps better the Indian economy.

true that - these skilled workers earn far more than what they could manage at home.
from personal experience - a security guard from assam earns 12k. his wife as a maid either full time or N*part time earns 12k.
they share a 1 room cum kitchen in a village labour dorms area with shared bathing/toilet facilities..the rent is around 2k. then food, power, water, 3G and cable tv expenses. each occupant has some plastic drums outside....water is brought at set time by tanker couple times a week.

both will have 3G plans. husband will have a cycle to start with and later maybe a scooter. all have cable TV and mini LPG cylinder.

the ones who are really exploited are the manual workers at lowest end of small scale construction industry. they are landless or drought stricken farmers brought with wives and kids by ruthless contractors. a tin walled shed is not guaranteed, many have only blue plastic tarp tents and are moved from work site to work site. they cook over wood in the open and crawl into the tents to get some sleep. some sniff glue or do drugs to forget the hellish conditions. even some BBMP contractors here use such means like work on the agara lake project.

these mute , scared and voiceless people have none to help them

photos - AI flight struck a wall in trichy due to late rotation on takeoff, ripped a big slash in its belly. landed safely
https://www.rt.com/news/441056-india-fl ... l-airport/

Singha wrote:photos - AI flight struck a wall in trichy due to late rotation on takeoff, ripped a big slash in its belly. landed safely
https://www.rt.com/news/441056-india-fl ... l-airport/

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn, standard response, pilots de rostered.

Everyone goes back to sleep again.

Dismiss such pilots after permanently canceling their licenses, with no chance of restoration, ever.

The little darlings have flown more than a thousand kms to their destination after the accident.

And there was no alarm from damaged systems or change in behaviour of plane is amazing looking at the giant gash