Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Nov 2018 19:05

Ibnlive

New Delhi: A hijack scare on a Kandahar-bound flight sent security officials at the Delhi airport into a tizzy on Saturday after the pilot "mistakenly" pressed the 'hijack button' when it was taxiing for take-off, sources said.

The Ariana Afghan Airlines plane took off nearly two hours later after "satisfactory" security checks, they said.


While there was no immediate official reaction, the sources said the pressing of hijack button had pushed all agencies concerned, including the anti-terror force National Security Guard (NSG), into action.

NSG commandos and officials of other agencies swiftly responded to the situation and surrounded the aircraft, they said. After a two-hour operation that created panic among passengers on board the aircraft, the plane was cleared for take-off, the sources said.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 Nov 2018 00:18

One cannot hope for safe flying if one presumes pilot understanding of the software is a prerequisite.

The best one can do for the majority of pilots is to provide a set of algorithms. Of course as the branches of an algorithmic tree increase to account for all contingencies, the utility of algorithmic sets is defeated given human limitations.

The skill set required may be quite different. It is similar to a physician and the biological researcher who provides the technology and understanding.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 11 Nov 2018 07:38

As the complexity and the level of control built into such software keeps increasing, we keep getting closer to the point where it will become better to move to fully unmanned planes. The complexity of the Man Machine Interface is beyond just the simplification of displays etc - the understanding of when to override the machine and when not to seems to be getting harder.

While keeping this particular incident aside since we are yet to know the final cause, I cannot help but think that countless instances of controlled flight into terrain/pilot disorientation or even simple confusions such as what happened with Asiana 214 at SFO point to likely better outcomes had the machines been fully in charge.

Of course it will be very difficult for people to probably adjust to this, but just like driverless trains and UCAVs, future of commercial flight would also have to be unmanned. Freighter aircraft would probably be the first to go this way among commercial airliners IMHO.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 Nov 2018 09:19

Unfortunately as the Air France airbus loss over the south Atlantic showed, erroneous readings of altitude angle of attack etc can befuddle software and humans alike.

One possible solution is to provide extrinsic sensors eg satellite surveillance of every observable flight parameter and also perhaps extrinsic overrides for every flight.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Nov 2018 09:36

sanjaykumar wrote:Unfortunately as the Air France airbus loss over the south Atlantic showed, erroneous readings of altitude angle of attack etc can befuddle software and humans alike.

One possible solution is to provide extrinsic sensors eg satellite surveillance of every observable flight parameter and also perhaps extrinsic overrides for every flight.


sanjaykumar ji,

Research the actions of a pilot called bonin who was in the cockpit all through the emergency and the part that he played.

It calls into serious question the crew training, the set up of the cockpit as well as the "authority" assigned to the side stick controllers, lack of tactile feedback vagera, vagera.

Undoubetedly, what you say is true but that is only a small part of the story.

If it was an asian airline, a lot more much would have emerged but the crew was gora and that too from france, the home of the airbus.

The airline in question is also the french national airline, enough said.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 Nov 2018 10:22

Yes I remember thinking that those French pilots did not actually know how a plane is operated. I believe an ex-airforce pilot could have saved those lives. And yes if it had been Air India there would have been no end to the derision of Indians.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Nov 2018 10:29

The AF447 pilot Bonin was definitely an idiot and the primary reason for the crash but the Airbus systems made it worse. When the Aircraft stalled, Bonin pulled back on the side stick and raised the nose up and held it there almost to the end. The left-seat pilot (who was the relief pilot) was pushing the stick down as he should have been. Acc. to Airbus logic the two inputs cancel each other out and nothing happens. There is also no indication to the pilots that they are working at cross purposes leaving them both bewildered as to why the aircraft isn't reacting to their inputs. This situation persists tot his day despite the lessons from this crash.

On Boeing aircraft the control columns are linked together so if one pilot pushes or pulls the column the other sees and feels that movement on his own.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 13:23

Give us back the old fashioned yoke which makes push pull clear

And these 10’ onlee of movement translated by sensors to a actuarors why? If control surface max is 45’ why not same on side stick ? Is there any proof side is better ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 11 Nov 2018 16:54

nachiket wrote:This situation persists tot his day despite the lessons from this crash.

On Boeing aircraft the control columns are linked together so if one pilot pushes or pulls the column the other sees and feels that movement on his own.


Not quite

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 11 Nov 2018 16:56

Even with a tunnel-vision'ed co-pilot, the ux design of the airbus cockpit and crew management contributed perhaps to the crash. Pprune has a long running thread going over various things that contributed. Enlightening, if a bit dry.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 18:48

CNN IBN :lol: for Chetak saar

Mumbai: National carrier Air India grounded its Director (Operations) Captain A K Kathpalia on Sunday after he allegedly failed in a pre-flight alcohol test, a senior airline official said.

Capt Kathpalia was to operate the Air India's AI-111 flight to London from New Delhi on Sunday afternoon. He was earlier also grounded for a similar offence.

"We have grounded Captain A K Kathpalia as he failed twice in the breath analyser test. He was to operate the London flight from New Delhi, but he failed to clear the pre-flight alcohol test," the official said.

"He was given another chance, but the second test was also found positive following which he was grounded," the official said.

Air India spokesperson was not available for comments on the matter.

Rule 24 of the Aircraft Rules prohibits crew members from partaking any alcoholic drink 12 hours prior to the commencement of a flight, and it is mandatory for him or her to undergo an alcohol test both before and after operating a flight.

Earlier, Kathpalia's flying licence was suspended in 2017 for three months by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) for allegedly skipping the breath analyser test before a flight.

He was subsequently removed from the post of executive director, operations.

However, he was later appointed to the post of director (operations) in Air India Ltd for a period of five years

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 18:56

cnn ibn - looks like a crackdown is on

New Delhi: An Air India Flight from Delhi to Bangkok was forced to return minutes after takeoff and was then delayed by several hours on Sunday after the co-pilot skipped the breath analyser test.

After flying the plane back to the Indira Gandhi International Airport, pilot H S Randhawa as well as the co-pilot, reportedly left from their duty and Air India officials were unable to give any answer to the passengers’ questions.


Several passengers complained that the flight, AI-332, returned just 10-15 minutes after it took off from the Indira Gandhi International Airport and they were made to sit in the plane for four hours without being given any reason for the delay.

Rule 24 of the Aircraft Rules prohibits crew members from partaking any alcoholic drink 12 hours prior to the commencement of a flight, and it is mandatory for him or her to undergo an alcohol test both before and after operating a flight.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 11 Nov 2018 20:00

Singha wrote:CNN IBN :lol: for Chetak saar

Mumbai: National carrier Air India grounded its Director (Operations) Captain A K Kathpalia on Sunday after he allegedly failed in a pre-flight alcohol test, a senior airline official said.

Earlier, Kathpalia's flying licence was suspended in 2017 for three months by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) for allegedly skipping the breath analyser test before a flight.

He was subsequently removed from the post of executive director, operations.

However, he was later appointed to the post of director (operations) in Air India Ltd for a period of five years


What a sorry state of affairs.

The second time his piloting license should be suspended for life and he be banned from working in Airline Industry. If he has made mockery of such clear cut rule where chances of catching so high, its quite likely he might have taken short cuts at many other procedures and protocol

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Nov 2018 20:06

JayS wrote:
Singha wrote:CNN IBN :lol: for Chetak saar

Mumbai: National carrier Air India grounded its Director (Operations) Captain A K Kathpalia on Sunday after he allegedly failed in a pre-flight alcohol test, a senior airline official said.

Earlier, Kathpalia's flying licence was suspended in 2017 for three months by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) for allegedly skipping the breath analyser test before a flight.

He was subsequently removed from the post of executive director, operations.

However, he was later appointed to the post of director (operations) in Air India Ltd for a period of five years


What a sorry state of affairs.

The second time his piloting license should be suspended for life and he be banned from working in Airline Industry. If he has made mockery of such clear cut rule where chances of catching so high, its quite likely he might have taken short cuts at many other procedures and protocol


+1

But for him to be where he is and do what he is doing without the fear of consequence simply means that he is heavily connected.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Nov 2018 20:50

^^people are taking flying high too literally

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 11 Nov 2018 21:14

Re QF72 insidence, I always wondered why they didnt have heating system in pitot tubes right from the starting. That was rather obvious that icing would cripple the sensor and cause major issue to FBW. Even the X31 project suffered a crash due to same issue. It should be fairly simple to put a heating system on the pitot tube.


chetak wrote:
+1

But for him to be where he is and do what he is doing without the fear of consequence simply means that he is heavily connected.

Yeah. I thought so too that he must be rather well connected to be even given a second chance.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 22:05

capt kathpalia faces a 3 yr ban on flying. the bangkok bound co-pilot who was called back faces 3 month ban + career counselling

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 22:09

did he go and take another peg for the road between 13:29 and 13:50 ? :shock:

atleast the doctors did a good job and refused to be cowed down by this well connected man. or maybe his former backers threw him under bus for some reason

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 Nov 2018 23:21

Just noticed- no ji for moi please.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Avtar Singh » 12 Nov 2018 06:37

The boeing/american propaganda against airbus and its far superior systems has been very strong since pprune started in early mid 1990s
Pushing pulling on yoke/control column and its observations
plus observing movement of thrust levers is a total red herring..
propagated by boeing and its cheerleaders at the time people who had never set foot in an airbus.

In 1990s there were arguments put out that pilots needed all the control that airbus took away in case of extreme situations; it was all poppy cock.

In fact the 777 has an auto throttle trap that has caught out many people despite the so called advantage of observable thrust lever movement

Everything one needs to know is all there displayed infront of you there is no need for any relics of the past that boeing perists with.

I would say one of the best cockpit layouts is HOTAS in f16 with the use of a sidestick, similar applies to airliners.

Sometime back a BA 747 heading to ?kenya? Had a big strong flight deck intruder…had it been an airbus system both pilots could have stepped out of their seats to deal with the intruder knowing the aircraft would take care of itself without falling into uncontrollable situation.
Also said intruder would have had no control column to grab/push pull….
He was a very big fellow… also he could have sat there pushing and pulling the thrust levers and the pilots could have happily ignored him!

All the incidences with airbus have been due to not reading the screens and understanding what they are telling you…. It is called mode awareness
Equally important in a boeing despite having that awful moving yoke between your legs and moving thrust levers.

In the end you disconnect the automatics; push thrust levers forward power comes up, pull the stick back and nose goes up…. It is known as FLYING THE AIRCRAFT… the first and foremost responsibility.

That terrible incident of air chance out of rio and into atlantic, even the french airline/pilots union tried to blame their own manufacturer and various pitot/static systems, instead of admitting to the lack of training for pilots once they got into situation. Beyond the fact they should not have been there in the first place.

All the information to get them out of the situation was there but they were not trained enough to use the information and handle the situation.. but they are not know as Air Chance without reason.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 12 Nov 2018 20:27

Singha wrote:did he go and take another peg for the road between 13:29 and 13:50 ? :shock:

atleast the doctors did a good job and refused to be cowed down by this well connected man. or maybe his former backers threw him under bus for some reason



If someone chugs down lots of alcohol the very first reading will be smaller and if you continue checking it out the BAC (blood alcohol content) will go up. It also depends upon if he has eaten or not. When you eat BAC goes down.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 12 Nov 2018 21:31

From what I know from pilot acquaintance of mine. Two idlis the night before an early morning flight would show up as above normal blood alcohol level.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Nov 2018 22:22

What sort of Idli would that be :?:

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2018 22:31

could be fermented sannas coconut idli of west coast.


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Nov 2018 11:03




If a failed breathalyzer test during a routine check by traffic police can lead to a jail sentence, why should a failed breathalyzer test preparatory to operating a commercial flight as captain/crew be any different?? The checks, as well as the consequences of a failed test, should be far more stringent in this case.

The fiight crew and cabin crew have legally defined responsibilities that should automatically mandate such a sentence, no??

suspension for kathpalia simply means that he will continue to draw full pay but may miss out only on some flight related allowances that he may get for actually operating an aircraft and also the mandatory sim training that helps to keep his license current/valid.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Nov 2018 11:11

Singha wrote:could be fermented sannas coconut idli of west coast.



Considering the temperatures at which idlis are steamed, no alcohol will survive those temperatures to manifest itself in a blood alcohol test.

This is simply a myth and a bad one at that.

When cooking with wine, the alcohol content boils away leaving some solid particulate matter residue in the wine to flavour the dish.

@nandakumar

From what I know from pilot acquaintance of mine. Two idlis the night before an early morning flight would show up as above normal blood alcohol level.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 13 Nov 2018 11:59

There are a very 'small ppm' of population who got a genetic condition that ferments sugar into alcohol. Other than that, it is a myth that sugar/starch will become alcohol in the body.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 13 Nov 2018 14:44

Dileep wrote:There are a very 'small ppm' of population who got a genetic condition that ferments sugar into alcohol. Other than that, it is a myth that sugar/starch will become alcohol in the body.

Ah! That explains. And I also knew he would scrupulously avoid alcohol at club get togethers if he was scheduled to fly the next day. So I honestly didnt think he was fibbing. Of course I didn't know the science of it.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Nov 2018 17:57

nandakumar wrote:
Dileep wrote:There are a very 'small ppm' of population who got a genetic condition that ferments sugar into alcohol. Other than that, it is a myth that sugar/starch will become alcohol in the body.

Ah! That explains. And I also knew he would scrupulously avoid alcohol at club get togethers if he was scheduled to fly the next day. So I honestly didnt think he was fibbing. Of course I didn't know the science of it.



lucky guys.

no daru expenses, free daru onlee.


Auto-brewery syndrome or gut fermentation syndrome is a condition in which ethanol is produced through endogenous fermentation in the gastrointestinal (GI) system. Spontaneous ethanol production occurs via a different metabolic pathway. Auto-brewery syndrome occurs in patients with alcohol intoxication after they ingest carbohydrate-rich meals.

Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a type of yeast, is identified as the pathogen. Endogenous fermentation or auto-brewery syndrome has been used as a defense against drunk driving charges although there is no literature quantifying the success rate of raising this defense. However, it is unlikely auto-brewery syndrome would cause significant levels of blood alcohol that would be high enough to induce ntoxication that would produce illegal levels of blood alcohol.

A variation of the disease occurs in individuals with liver dysfunction that prevents them from excreting alcohol in a normal fashion. Patients develop signs and symptoms of auto-brewery syndrome when the yeast in the gut produces a quantity of alcohol that is too meager to induce intoxication in a normal individual but may induce signs and symptoms in individuals afflicted with auto-brewery syndrome.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2018 20:10

NDTV excerpt

there have also been allegations of sexual harassment against Captain Kathpalia that sources say were covered up by the pilot and his friends at Air India.

Incidentally, the senior pilot's father, GR Kathpalia, worked with the DGCA for over thirty years. Captain Kathpalia is an important man in the national carrier too, having flown many dignitaries -- including former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh -- on their travels across the globe.

The sexual harassment controversy first broke out nearly 10 years ago, when a senior woman pilot with Air India alleged that she was targeted by Captain Kathpalia while she was still undergoing command training. The way her complaint was covered up is a stark portrayal of how influential men's clubs in the airline help people with dubious track records get promoted to high positions.

The woman told NDTV that the committee constituted to probe the case was heavily biased in favour of Captain Kathpalia, and all its members seemed eager to clear his name. She alleged that the senior pilot used to come late to each meeting, and when he did, the panel members would let him cross-examine her while denying her the same courtesy.

The woman also filed a complaint with the police, but the case wasn't taken up by a sessions court until 10 years later, in 2015. She said that when the matter did come up for hearing, Captain Kathpalia kept skipping court appearances until he was eventually cleared of all charges for lack of evidence.

The woman said she did not speak up against Captain Kathpalia for two years after the incident for fear of being labelled as a "sensitive girl" who "doesn't know how to fly" by higher-ups who supported him unconditionally. "He never looked me in the eye after the incident because he knew he was guilty. But in the end he got what he wanted, like he always has. When I read about the #Metoo accounts being shared online, I wondered if coming out with my story once again will mean anything to this man... But if his licence has been revoked for three years, he's got what he deserved."

Other charges against Captain Kathpalia pertain to faking his date of birth in an attempt to delay his retirement and colluding with administration staffers to the extent that fellow pilots he got drunk with were caught in breathalyzer tests while he was given a clean chit.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2018 20:15

New Delhi: Air India on Tuesday sacked Captain Arvind Kathpalia as its Director of Operations

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sum » 14 Nov 2018 06:59

The LionAir issue seems to be a absolute f**k-up by Boeing in multiple respects:
Indonesia 737 crash caused by “safety” feature change pilots weren’t told of
First approved for commercial operation by the FAA on March 8, 2017, the MAX is just beginning to be delivered in large volumes. Lion Air was one of Boeing's primary foreign customers for the MAX, which is also flown by Southwest Airlines, American Airlines, and Air Canada. The Lion Air aircraft lost in the accident was virtually brand new, delivered by Boeing in August; this was the first accident involving an aircraft touted for its safety.
Update: But Boeing never told pilots about one key new safety feature—an automated anti-stall system—or how to troubleshoot its failure. The manual update raised an outcry from pilots in the US.
Allied Pilots Association spokesperson and 737 captain Dennis Tajer told Reuters that his union members were only informed of a new anti-stall system that had been installed by Boeing on 737 MAX aircraft after the Lion Air crash. “It is information that we were not privy to in training or in any other manuals or materials,” Tajer told Reuters.
Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, told Bloomberg, “We don’t like that we weren’t notified.” Southwest has ordered 257 737 MAX aircraft; American has orders for 85 still pending.


In the past, anti-stall systems have either issued audible warnings to pilots or, as in newer systems, used a sensory feedback system that warns the pilot by putting more resistance on the aircraft's control stick or yoke when the pilot is approaching the critical angle. But the new system in the 737 uses data from the aircraft's AOA and airspeed sensors to proactively counter pilot error, adjusting the aircraft's controls to push the nose down if the sensors indicate the aircraft could stall.


Initial data from the investigation of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 indicates that the AOA sensor was providing "erroneous input," according to a Boeing statement. The aircraft had recently had an AOA sensor replaced, and had experienced additional unidentified issues; a maintenance technician was aboard at the time of the crash, but not because of the AOA sensor.



One more informative article:
Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Nov 2018 09:23

Singha wrote:New Delhi: Air India on Tuesday sacked Captain Arvind Kathpalia as its Director of Operations


Well, he seems just like any other normal everyday sort of dilli billi type, a well connected heavy hitter who thought he was invincible until he wasn't.

He was also an AI board member.

BTW, this company abounds with many many kathpalia types. Go figure.

Curiously, no report mentions his resignation or sacking from the company so for all intents and purposes, he is still employed by AI and therefore, like a true dilli billi, he will continue to draw his salary for doing jack, and of course, is paid by us, the long suffering taxpayers.
Last edited by chetak on 14 Nov 2018 09:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2018 09:24

^^^ arstechnica ... full on AI running amuck and not handling prolonged bad inputs.

WSJ has the same details. someone in Boeing dropped the ball and failed to push this bulletin to airlines and into the simulator vendors.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Nov 2018 09:50

Singha wrote:^^^ arstechnica ... full on AI running amuck and not handling prolonged bad inputs.

WSJ has the same details. someone in Boeing dropped the ball and failed to push this bulletin to airlines and into the simulator vendors.


If true, there may be very heavy liability issues to sort out and horrendous compensations to pay.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2018 10:04

testing any SW, let alone the worlds premier FCS sw against a barrage of creative negative inputs is part and parcel of any cycle.

calls into question if the FCS was ever tested for this failure of input data stream ....and what other such uncaught bugs lurk.

sw bug also happened in that Qantas a300 incident.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 14 Nov 2018 16:59

Singha wrote:testing any SW, let alone the worlds premier FCS sw against a barrage of creative negative inputs is part and parcel of any cycle.

calls into question if the FCS was ever tested for this failure of input data stream ....and what other such uncaught bugs lurk.

sw bug also happened in that Qantas a300 incident.
so your suspicion was right . The pilot was fighting the FCS for control of plane. Nasty situation for pilot and passengers.
It was going fast at the end, as I understand it.
The same craft had a previous similar incident a few weeks prior. (Faulty sensor input leading to a/c doing its own thin) Why did Boeing not fess up then?

Also this 'we forgot to tell the pilots' does not compute. Boeing makes a major change to the FCS that takes control away from the pilot ....and they 'forgot' !! to tell the pilots

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2018 21:35

- per my rough estimate it must have been around 400-500kmph max just 15km out of airport and 5000 feet height. at that speed it would be around 20-30 SECONDS to impact in a dive and speed would increase. flightradar watchers said 600kmph was the impact speed. at that speed most of us would struggle to find our own backsides with our two hands , than get into thinking mode and even if he struggled to pull the nose up which he surely did, the FCS would have locked him out and "taken charge of things"

- on the preceding flight from denpasar(bali) to jakarta, this issue occurred at high level and the plane dropped several 100 feet before the problem probably self-corrected . the pilots also noted jittery air speed readings. they continued on flying to jakarta safely.

the thought link between the faulty sensor and the sudden wild behaviour of the plane was not made .... maybe the earlier occurences were milder as the plane was in level flight. ... so could have been mistaken as clear air turbulence....here it was climbing and the nose was already pointed up, so maybe that triggered a "rageboy mode" and pitch the nose down 2X of what occurred at high level with nose level.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2018 21:50

if the 189 dead had a dozen of so americans a lawsuit would be filed next week against boeing, given the revelations.

it might still be filed if someone from OECD was in there and has legal assistance. for poor ASEAN types the Govts are all powerless vs US govt so wont happen.


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