Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2019 21:41

Good find Singha , The facility looks big enough to service wide body type as well.

This looks like Boeing facility do we have similar facility for Airbus in India ?

AI certinly has a huge facility in Mumbai you see many aircraft parked out there but what type of MRO they do out there is unknown , I heard related to Engine repair.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2019 21:44

AI fleet size is truly awesome , 90 % looks very modern type in service

http://www.airindia.in/fleet-details.htm

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2019 22:03

AeroIndia 2019 Webinar on 'Regional Transport Aircraft of India'


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 22:43

Daily 50 flights are delayed in blr until 8 am due to fog

Not acceptable for third biggest airport

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 07 Jan 2019 12:46

Austin wrote:Good find Singha , The facility looks big enough to service wide body type as well.

This looks like Boeing facility do we have similar facility for Airbus in India ?

AI certinly has a huge facility in Mumbai you see many aircraft parked out there but what type of MRO they do out there is unknown , I heard related to Engine repair.

All 3 companies that I mentioned in my post earlier - Air India, GMR Aero Technic and AirWorks (seen in Singha's YouTube link) can do both Airbus and Boeing narrow-body planes in addition to ATRs. GMR additionally is certified for Bombardier Q400s as well.

Regarding widebodies, although all 3 have hard infrastructure for working on them, the actual capabilities exist only with AI at the moment. No one is willing to invest in the same based on a grand total of 18 frames of Jet Airways spread over 2 different types a(A330 and B777) that constitute the market, not even Jet Airways themselves!!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 07 Jan 2019 12:49

Singha wrote:Daily 50 flights are delayed in blr until 8 am due to fog

Not acceptable for third biggest airport

I think the new second runway will have better facilities and instrumentation when it opens later this year.

I think it will be CAT IIIB ILS which should help out, provided the airline/pilots are certified.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Jan 2019 16:14

manish wrote:
Austin wrote:Good find Singha , The facility looks big enough to service wide body type as well.

This looks like Boeing facility do we have similar facility for Airbus in India ?

AI certinly has a huge facility in Mumbai you see many aircraft parked out there but what type of MRO they do out there is unknown , I heard related to Engine repair.

All 3 companies that I mentioned in my post earlier - Air India, GMR Aero Technic and AirWorks (seen in Singha's YouTube link) can do both Airbus and Boeing narrow-body planes in addition to ATRs. GMR additionally is certified for Bombardier Q400s as well.

Regarding widebodies, although all 3 have hard infrastructure for working on them, the actual capabilities exist only with AI at the moment. No one is willing to invest in the same based on a grand total of 18 frames of Jet Airways spread over 2 different types a(A330 and B777) that constitute the market, not even Jet Airways themselves!!


Nice Info , Thank You Sir

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby hnair » 07 Jan 2019 17:01

manish wrote:Meanwhile, check out AI's MRO ops. They could have been a real player if they had leveraged their assets well. I am told something like 19 hangars across the county belong to them including a fancy wide-body capable one built by Boeing for them at Nagpur. But their 3rd party business market share must be almost non-existent except for the occasional photo op.


We have an adorable little MRO with two connected hangars for 737srun by AI at TRV. You can see it next to the road to beach and is a recent (less than 10 years) one. Thing is always packed, maybe because the type is popular. I have seen other airlines than AI, with their cowlings off and inshallah, hoping to see a P8I at some point

old pic:
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2019 18:21

the GMR MRO in hyderabad looks bigger than the Hosur one



how often do 737 types visit the MRO for airframe work and for engine work ?

we really need engine MRO given the number of LEAP and CFM56 engines here....the domestic fleet is around 700 airframes and set to grow.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 07 Jan 2019 18:49

hnair wrote:
manish wrote:Meanwhile, check out AI's MRO ops. They could have been a real player if they had leveraged their assets well. I am told something like 19 hangars across the county belong to them including a fancy wide-body capable one built by Boeing for them at Nagpur. But their 3rd party business market share must be almost non-existent except for the occasional photo op.


We have an adorable little MRO with two connected hangars for 737srun by AI at TRV. You can see it next to the road to beach and is a recent (less than 10 years) one. Thing is always packed, maybe because the type is popular. I have seen other airlines than AI, with their cowlings off and inshallah, hoping to see a P8I at some point

old pic:
Image

Well, no surprises there since TRV is where Air India Express has its MX base and the facility was opened specifically to cater to their sizable B737 fleet.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 07 Jan 2019 19:00

Singha wrote:the GMR MRO in hyderabad looks bigger than the Hosur one

how often do 737 types visit the MRO for airframe work and for engine work ?

we really need engine MRO given the number of LEAP and CFM56 engines here....the domestic fleet is around 700 airframes and set to grow.

GMR facility is actually of a different scale altogether in terms of capabilities and equipment, and presently the only one with Amreeki FAA approval in 'South Asia'.

After it's opening the types of IndiGo almost stopped sending planes overseas for airframe checks. It's the biggest player in the market today with probably something like 60%+ share. Everyone other than AI sends their planes there, including Jet sometimes. AI of course has a nice MRO in the very next plot which makes HYD now the biggest MRO hub in the country by far.

In fact, within the HYD airport campus, there are training facilities by Pratt & Whitney and CFM, making for quite an ecosystem.

As far maintenace cycles go, I am told typical A320/B737 base maintenance 'C' checks come up every 18 months or so, linked to the flight hours flown. Some of the more knowledgeable gurus can weigh in here.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 07 Jan 2019 20:50

Nice info manish saar. Good to hear that facilities which can do C & D checks are being cropped up in India. In the not so distant long ago, almost all aircrafts from Indian private operators were being ferried to ME &/or SE Asia for such activities.

Let me ask a few follow up questions...does GMR "run" the entire facility or have they leased the park to various private indian airline operators who in turn have set up MRO shop there? If GMR is running the show including performing maintenance activities, are they (GMR personnel) being trained by OEM folks in diagnosis & conducting repairs? Does GMR hire the required personnel by themselves?

I will also try to look the above up, but you seem to have pretty good insider knowledge. Would appreciate your inputs.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 07 Jan 2019 22:25

Zynda wrote:Let me ask a few follow up questions...does GMR "run" the entire facility or have they leased the park to various private indian airline operators who in turn have set up MRO shop there? If GMR is running the show including performing maintenance activities, are they (GMR personnel) being trained by OEM folks in diagnosis & conducting repairs? Does GMR hire the required personnel by themselves?

I will also try to look the above up, but you seem to have pretty good insider knowledge. Would appreciate your inputs.

GMR indeed 'runs' the place fully, including all the manpower and the specialised equipment.

If you see the video Singha Saar posted above, you see that it used to be called 'MAS GMR' since it was a JV with an arm of Malaysia Airlines. A few years ago, GMR bought out its foreign partner to own it 100%.

More information is at http://gmraerotech.in

By the way all the information I posted is very much available in the public domain. I do not work in the MRO/aviation maintenance sector.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2019 22:50

Livemint

Majority of the planes inducted by the carriers last year, according to available figures, were Airbus A320 neos, with four carriers - IndiGo, GoAir, Air India and Vistara - taking deliveries of more than 60 of these planes besides other types of aircraft.

At present, these carriers together have over 660 planes. Budget carrier IndiGo has 206 planes including A320 neos, while both Air India and Jet Airways have 125 and 124 aircraft, respectively, in their fleets.

IndiGo inducted a total of 55 aircraft, including its first long-range A321 neo; Air India and its subsidiaries took deliveries of 18 planes followed by GoAir 16 and SpiceJet 14 in 2018.


While IndiGo and GoAir A320 neos are powered by Pratt &Whitney engines, Air India and Vistara have CFM engines in their A320 neo planes.

Five carriers combined - IndiGo, Jet Airways, SpiceJet, GoAir, Vistara -- have placed orders for around 1,115 planes with global aircraft makers since 2011.

“With a total of 1,055 aircraft on order, as many as 100 planes consisting of wide-body, narrow-body and regional ones are to be delivered to Indian carriers each year for the next five years,” Sydney-based aviation think-tank Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) had forecast in 2017.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Jan 2019 23:37

Those who bought NEO with P&W engine made a smart choice :P

These purchases of 600 plus NEO are mostly leased ones isnt it , The airlines dont buy it just lease it so that they can return it back in end of lease period or if they dont wish to operate.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 07 Jan 2019 23:47

Singha wrote:
“With a total of 1,055 aircraft on order, as many as 100 planes consisting of wide-body, narrow-body and regional ones are to be delivered to Indian carriers each year for the next five years,” Sydney-based aviation think-tank Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) had forecast in 2017.

Not getting screwdriver work here for these will be a criminal waste of an opportunity!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2019 00:14

I think most of the pvt carriers are leasing their planes in some shell game with large leasing cos ? or do they own the inventory? due to this leasing business they are not in a position to demand and get offset work.

cheen operators outright buy them I think. being economically viable is not a huge concern there, as their operators are quasi govt.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 08 Jan 2019 00:49

Singha wrote:I think most of the pvt carriers are leasing their planes in some shell game with large leasing cos ? or do they own the inventory? due to this leasing business they are not in a position to demand and get offset work.

cheen operators outright buy them I think. being economically viable is not a huge concern there, as their operators are quasi govt.

China procures aircraft centrally through China Aviation Supplies Holding Co which later 'allocates' the planes to individual airlines. Gives them immense leverage in the market.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Jan 2019 02:39

It's not a shell game. Aircraft leasing is a big money business. GECAS is big in it. It requires a very capital surplus entity to get into the business of buying and leasing out aircraft to one entity after the other. Our banking and financial system is not very capital surplus, quite the opposite.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2019 08:15

Mumbai: The recurring glitches on the Pratt & Whitney-powered Airbus planes have forced the Wadia group-run budget carrier GoAir to ground as many as seven A320 Neos, a source said Monday.

The city-headquartered airline has 49 planes in the fleet and 30 of them are Airbus A320 Neos.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 08 Jan 2019 09:34

P&W GTF has been problematic for many operators saving grace is so far it has not met with any major accidents , GTF engine I read are also maintenance intensive , Need a comparison table if any between GTF and LEAP for NEO , with data from running operators because the brouchere giri and real world performance might differ.

In India every private player seems to lease aircraft as per their business plans capital and benefits same goes even for AI where it tries to buy from both to keep both happy ! With such scattered self serving business model it is hard to see any of the them give us any thing more than MRO facility

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2019 10:25

yes leasing is typically the strategy where a guy who can buy a camry wants to ride a BMW5 with the same EMI.
the car is not really his until he exercises option to buy out at end of lease.

so no surprise we have no leverage over Airbus/Boeing to setup a assembly line here - not that they will share the crown jewel aspects but final assembly and parts procurement as they do in china and japan. for china it makes sense to steal and learn from there to txfer onto C919 and C929/Y20/H20 projects

if AI were a giant like gulfies, turkiye and SIA it would be different story.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Jan 2019 11:28

It's not CAAC / Air China that has the leasing arm. It's PRC govt pushing its big four banks flush with cash to do so. Airlines themselves are usually not moneymakers. The leasing arms run separately as subsidiaries of financial conglomerates, are. If India sets up an aircraft leasing business, it'll be from the financial sector and not the aircraft sector.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby yensoy » 08 Jan 2019 14:49

Exactly. There is no reason to have a leasing company in India. Aircraft leasing is the play of the rich, those with large surpluses for whom this is a wealth preservation effort (and in the case of the western world, a lot to do with tax deduction via depreciation). With aggressive priced leases thanks to a surfeit of Chinese capital and Chinese owned aircraft, we are better off putting our savings into fundamental growth drivers like factories and investing in training, rather than parking it in marginally profitable but stable rent earners like aircraft.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Jan 2019 23:57

I would not say stable rent earner. Aircraft leasing can be a fickle and cyclical business where planes have to be parked and incurs a substantial carrying cost during weak periods. Most major lessor companies run out of Ireland for the tax benefits. Not quite something we can do at the moment, for several reasons that have little to do with airplanes themselves.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Jan 2019 01:54

Jet Airways, despite being in doldrums at the moment, is the only Indian airline with widebodies on order currently if I'm not mistaken. If TATA can pull off a coup and buy it out and merge with Vistara it would be great. It would be nice to have more international flights available on Indian airlines without it being IndiGo style lunacy of returning to the era of Boeing 707's and flying single-aisle aircraft to London from India with a halt because they don't have enough range.

It would not have been too difficult for them to cut down on their gigantic narrow-body order and buy a few A330's instead. The A330 has a NEO version available which is more efficient than the vanilla A330 but costs much less than the B787 or A350.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 09 Jan 2019 06:03

600 Airbus NEOs ordered in India, should mean that they should be MAKE IN INDIA, not MAKE in China or Make in France

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2019 07:12

Dgca may ground all gtf neo planes in india

https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 07962.html

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Jan 2019 10:24

High Time they did that for safety of passenger and crew. The saving grace has been no serious accident have happened.

P&W needs to find out the root cause of these multiple incident and fix them before they are given flight worthy status.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2019 11:13

yes let them bring a company plane to hot/high/polluted/dusty climes in india and run it for a while embedded with all sorts of extra sensors.

not that in germany they have fared much better - cold and no dust.

it cannot be blamed on the yindu here.

I am pretty sure someone is going to die soon at this rate of 'incidents'.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 09 Jan 2019 11:24

Lease or outright buy, these planes are used here. Any country would use it to its advantage. I'm sure companies like L&T and Tata would love to setup an assembly line for these jets. Just needs government b@lls.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 10 Jan 2019 08:36

Gagan wrote:600 Airbus NEOs ordered in India, should mean that they should be MAKE IN INDIA, not MAKE in China or Make in France


Indian negotiators usually do a sh&t job of negotiating useful offsets for India, despite tens of billions spent.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Jan 2019 09:15

Government has no say on which type aircraft Go AIr or Spicejet or Indigo buys these private player leases types based on the sops they get both over and under the table like our Civil Aviation ministry

GOI has only say in what AI buys and traditionally they have divided their fleet to please both Boeing and Airbus ( airbus for local and boeing for intl if I am not wrong ) .

We can best hope for consoladated MRO facility at 2-3 locations in India in which all the private player and AI can maintain and overhaul the engine and other aspects ....other than that be a part of global supply chain to these players , Like HAL has been making Airbus doors. Even getting these done is a tall ask for our Civil Ministries and babus if they cant consolidate their existing infra which they have why to expect any thing new.

They wont let us assemble any Boeing or Airbus in India for sure many reasons.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Jan 2019 16:44

Airbus
‏Verified account @Airbus

With the delivery of 800 commercial aircraft in 2018, Airbus sets another record with deliveries up for the 16th year in a row. Last year's 747 net orders bring our backlog to 7,577 aircraft, an industry record

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Jan 2019 16:50

Not surprising Airbus has success with Narrowbody & New , Compared to Boeing its a 20 years old newer design , If any one sat in 737-800 and A-320 knows too well that the latter is far more comfortable to sit due to wider fuselage , The 737 is too bloody narrow .....there are other issues too to add but any one buying a 737-800 or MAX series is being fleeced when its closest competitor Airbus is much better by every thing ....

Not to mention they screwed up big time with MCAS and looking to find fault with Pilot and Maintenance crew

Here is some interesting pov on this topic https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1385323

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Jan 2019 21:07

One more issue with P&W engine with A320NEO this time with GoAir

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/goair-f ... -topscroll

"GoAir flight G8319 departed for Delhi from the Mumbai airport at 10.17 am. However, mid-air, one of the aircraft engines experienced high vibrations, forcing the pilot to seek ATC's permission to return to Mumbai," the source said.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 10 Jan 2019 21:21

Neshant wrote:
Gagan wrote:600 Airbus NEOs ordered in India, should mean that they should be MAKE IN INDIA, not MAKE in China or Make in France


Indian negotiators usually do a sh&t job of negotiating useful offsets for India, despite tens of billions spent.

The first step is to have a domestic civil airliner project up and running, which I think this GoI has revived now.
The next thing is to get all stake holders in one room and do a concerted deal. But for that to happen, GoI will have to give concessions to the airlines as well - they are all private players, fighting it out in a tough business environment. Past GoIs have be very apathetic to their needs, and have taxed them to the hilt !
The goal is not screwdrivergiri or making some parts, but eventually an entire plane, parts, technology, ancillaries - another ecosystem, that is way bigger than what LCA Tejas created.
Out of this will come forth a heavy duty C-17 like heavy lifter and a supersonic long range bomber

But the initial steps have to be taken
AoA

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Jan 2019 10:08

Came in todays TOI quoting seatle times , seems 737 has serious issue with its rudders , rudder’s propensity to deflect on its own

A question of safety or ethics: The Boeing 737

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2019 17:23

instead of never ending promises and EGOMs for the RTA, why dont we make a start by buying the rights and start producing, while in parallel looking to upsize this sound design? but then our NAL gods probably want to design the last nut and bolt inhouse! ... as a never ending science project than a shippable product....which they will enjoy working on until retirement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_328

Following the bankruptcy of Fairchild Dornier, AvCraft Aviation acquired the Dornier 328/328JET rights, however this company entered bankruptcy itself less than three years later.[25][26] In June 2006, 328 Support Services GmbH acquired the type certificate for the Dornier 328.[27] It provides maintenance, repair and overhaul services to the existing in-service fleet.[28]

In February 2015, US engineering company Sierra Nevada Corporation acquired 328 Support Services GmbH.[29][25] Shortly thereafter, Sierra Nevada's owner, Turkish-American Engineer Fatih Ozmen, established a private corporation named Özjet Havacılık Teknolojileri A.Ş. at Technopark of Bilkent University, Ankara and signed a Memorandum of understanding with the Transportation Ministry of Turkey in order to manufacture the 328 at Ankara.[30] In June 2015, the Turkish government launched the Turkish TR328 and TRJ328 regional aircraft project, a modernized 328/328JET, with either turboprops or jets for civil and military use [31] and a larger TR628/TRJ-628[32] forecasting a break even level and market of 500–1000 for each type.

While first flight was anticipated in 2019, Turkey abandoned the program in October 2017, after facing increasing costs and no longer confident of market demand forecasts. Believing in the sub 40-seat market, Sierra Nevada Corporation and 328 Support Services GmbH are searching for other means to revive the aircraft, hoping to follow through by the end of 2017 or early 2018.

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 11 Jan 2019 18:26

Gagan wrote:The first step is to have a domestic civil airliner project up and running, which I think this GoI has revived now.
The next thing is to get all stake holders in one room and do a concerted deal. But for that to happen, GoI will have to give concessions to the airlines as well - they are all private players, fighting it out in a tough business environment. Past GoIs have be very apathetic to their needs, and have taxed them to the hilt !
The goal is not screwdrivergiri or making some parts, but eventually an entire plane, parts, technology, ancillaries - another ecosystem, that is way bigger than what LCA Tejas created.
Out of this will come forth a heavy duty C-17 like heavy lifter and a supersonic long range bomber

But the initial steps have to be taken
AoA


Crossposting from the International Aviation thread:
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/how-china-could-challenge-the-boeing-airbus-duopoly-11546786800

Airbus itself is a government subsidized program and Europe is full of private companies.

Without state involvement, the world would still be in a Boeing monopoly.

India is a continental sized like Europe and Cheen, we must start down this path.


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