Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2019 19:53

Making domestic parts and buying out a decent but orphaned design like DO238 would get our ecosystem of parts vendors, test infra and QC in place while more ambitious larger designs can proceed. but it needs vision to make such a call and push it through. NAL can do never do this , they are scientists depending on govt for work and funds. someone maverick like Elon musk or Bezos would fund it, but all we have are Mota bhai types not exactly focussed on national power or STEM.

even if a desi billionaire funded it like that turkish mogul did, HAL and its SJW bands would howl that why they were not given all the work for free on a platter and ask for a ban on domestic airlines buying it. some of these PSUs believe they are not here to serve the country, but the country exists to serve their soft existence.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Jan 2019 21:24

Singha wrote:instead of never ending promises and EGOMs for the RTA, why dont we make a start by buying the rights and start producing, while in parallel looking to upsize this sound design? but then our NAL gods probably want to design the last nut and bolt inhouse! ... as a never ending science project than a shippable product....which they will enjoy working on until retirement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_328

Following the bankruptcy of Fairchild Dornier, AvCraft Aviation acquired the Dornier 328/328JET rights, however this company entered bankruptcy itself less than three years later.[25][26] In June 2006, 328 Support Services GmbH acquired the type certificate for the Dornier 328.[27] It provides maintenance, repair and overhaul services to the existing in-service fleet.[28]

In February 2015, US engineering company Sierra Nevada Corporation acquired 328 Support Services GmbH.[29][25] Shortly thereafter, Sierra Nevada's owner, Turkish-American Engineer Fatih Ozmen, established a private corporation named Özjet Havacılık Teknolojileri A.Ş. at Technopark of Bilkent University, Ankara and signed a Memorandum of understanding with the Transportation Ministry of Turkey in order to manufacture the 328 at Ankara.[30] In June 2015, the Turkish government launched the Turkish TR328 and TRJ328 regional aircraft project, a modernized 328/328JET, with either turboprops or jets for civil and military use [31] and a larger TR628/TRJ-628[32] forecasting a break even level and market of 500–1000 for each type.

While first flight was anticipated in 2019, Turkey abandoned the program in October 2017, after facing increasing costs and no longer confident of market demand forecasts. Believing in the sub 40-seat market, Sierra Nevada Corporation and 328 Support Services GmbH are searching for other means to revive the aircraft, hoping to follow through by the end of 2017 or early 2018.

Image


The thing is a Do 328 or ATR72 will help you build an aircraft and perhaps even let you build an ecosystem to support it over a period of decade with good investment but it won’t let us know why the aircraft was designed in that way and what did they learn in the thousand of wind tunnel test they did to come to a solution Perhaps they were right perhaps they were wrong perhaps they were more right on some things than wrong , what was the so called crequirwment to build the aircraft etc

There are things which you learn designing your own aircraft and learn things to do 1000 different things in wrong way before you do right and gain experience if we are to move in the direction to become a aviation powerhouse or one of it

GOI has to fund nal and be prepared for any outcome they need to also find a initial customer for RTA and long term plans on how many they plan to build and who are the potential customer who they can sell reliastically , a business plan which all civil aircraft come with by doing research in market and speaking to potential customers , with the risk that it could fail for any number of reason beyond their control , it has happend to many players in past

It should not be the case they build an aircraft for commercial purpose and then no one buys or backs out and then its thrust down on the armed forces

Right now GOI has no intent to fund these civilian program and just let nal do R&D work on shoe string budget just to keep nal civil design wing busy and occupied

For a greenfield project goi has to accept all the risk even spectacular failure and persist on , a spectacular failure will still teach you how not to do 1000 of things which went wrong and the go to something else without repeating these mistakes

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 11 Jan 2019 22:22

Indigo airlines starts a direct flight from Varanasi to Bangkok. People are calling it Paap and Prayashchit route.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 11 Jan 2019 23:06

SBajwa wrote:Indigo airlines starts a direct flight from Varanasi to Bangkok. People are calling it Paap and Prayashchit route.


LoL. Bangkok is forever tagged as the eternal Sin City. The name itself sounds horrendously bad and naughty in street English.

Singha
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2019 01:08

unless we start producing aircraft, even if not our original design we will never be a civilian aerospace power, already we are lagging way behind japan , china and brazil. south korea is probably next.

>> Right now GOI has no intent to fund these civilian program and just let nal do R&D work on shoe string budget just to keep nal civil design wing busy and occupied

this is a train to nowhere. to what end will this science serve our country. the NAL people will work and retire and next gen will also work and retire. unless we produce products and deploy at some scale its all going to remain inside ivory tower and research papers. in russia while TsAgi/gromov does the science, its the HAL type agencies who also produce something of that science,

atleast for a ATR72 sized ac they can both buy a DO328 design to work on production aspects and in parallel get NAL to design a C130 sized plane that GOI will fund, a dual role austere airline and military cargo plane like the DC3 dakota used to be

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 12 Jan 2019 01:52

Singha wrote:unless we start producing aircraft, even if not our original design we will never be a civilian aerospace power, already we are lagging way behind japan , china and brazil. south korea is probably next.


We’ll be behind Saudi Arabia too when the An-132 takes off:
Image

Image

Saudis were smart enough to pick the bones of the Ukrainian aviation industry.

We used the An-32 in large numbers for many years. Why did we not partner in this? We should have been the beter and more obvious choice if we had pursued it imo.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 12 Jan 2019 05:50

Bengaluru Kempegowda International Airport to have new terminal, runway and more.

Bengaluru’s Kempegowda International Airport in Karnataka is all set to receive a major infrastructural upgrade. A Rs 13,000 crore programme has been envisioned which will include the development of a new terminal, a second runway, access roads, internal road infrastructure, airport service utilities and a multi-modal transport hub. The airport authorities, while expecting a surge in traffic, are planning to undertake a big expansion programme of the airport to accommodate the high demand of passengers. The expansion programme planned for the airport, which is expected to be completed by the year 2021 is likely to provide jobs to 45,000 people, and will increase the manpower to about 25,000 from the existing 20,000 employees.

The new terminal will be constructed in a cost-effective way.Some of the other salient features about the project are as follows:

The terminal will be built at the most affordable cost and in a responsible way.
The terminal will be world class in all aspects, as it will be built in a sustainable manner including its design, operation and performance.
It will be environmentally sustainable as there will be inclusion of solar energy, which is a renewable form of energy. With this, there will be zero electricity consumption during the day time.
Arrangements have also been made for self sustainability in terms of water requirements for the terminal.
It will be built keeping in tandem with environmental sustainability

Hari Marar, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Bangalore International Airport Infrastructure Limited (BIAL) has said that the Phase-2 development programme of the airport involves Rs 13,000 crore, which includes a component of Rs 2,000 crore interest. The cost of the new terminal itself is roughly about Rs 3,500 crore. BIAL owns and operates the Kempegowda International Airport and is responsible for the operations, commercial activities and infrastructure development of the airport, in terms with growing air-traffic.

The infra boost will efficiently handle the growing air passenger traffic
The Kempegowda International Airport is the third busiest in the country recording 27 million passengers in the year 2017-2018, and is expecting passenger traffic to increase three-folds over the next 10 years. The Bengaluru airport is expecting a surge of nearly 70 percent passenger traffic over the next two years due to several multinational companies located in Bengaluru, also known as the Silicon Valley of India, attracting professionals day by day.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Jan 2019 10:42


atleast for a ATR72 sized ac they can both buy a DO328 design to work on production aspects and in parallel get NAL to design a C130 sized plane that GOI will fund, a dual role austere airline and military cargo plane like the DC3 dakota used to be


Indeed , there is no will or desire among any goi to fund civilian program , simply happy to buy it out ... even Saras was funded with great reluctance and delay and other than IAF no one has committed to buy not even in single digit

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2019 11:30

Bial is expected to grow by 15-20% per annum for next decade. From 27mil now the 50 mil will come fast

They need to construct the airport metro fast

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Jan 2019 12:17

Few pilots I have interacted with spoke about lack of Cat 2 and Cat 3 being a hindrance for BIAL , They would rather have this first than any other thing there. Again this is just an informal conversation with them cant really confirm


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 12 Jan 2019 20:43

The 2nd runway at BIAL is supposed to be of CAT-3B standards and the first runway will be upgraded as well. But in the press release articles, I could not find what the upgrade of 1st runway entails (apart from expansion mentioned) i.e. if they will be upgraded to CAT-3 as well. I suppose installing & maintaining 2 runways with CAT-3 standards may be expensive and hence they might retain existing Cat-1 systems for the first runway.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2019 21:33

a 50 million pax airport ought to be able to maintain 2 runways with the best equipment. big hubs worldwide have upto 6 runways.

the L1 least cost approach will be a disaster for BIAL.

with land only for 2 runways, beyond 50 mil its better that Hosur airport be developed as the 2nd airport for the greater blr region. people from TN krishnagiri/ambur side will also benefit.

local politicians will oppose it saying all the money will go to TN. they will instead try to suggest an airport in the west on mysore road where there is no free land available to pocket profits from the realty boom.

TN should just go ahead and offer Hosur as a gateway airport to south Blr.

BIAL should acquire land in the north side if possible for 3rd runway. south side is a higher plateau area where a huge SEZ with road grid is now open

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kempe ... 77.7065928

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 12 Jan 2019 22:33

Singha wrote:a 50 million pax airport ought to be able to maintain 2 runways with the best equipment. big hubs worldwide have upto 6 runways.

the L1 least cost approach will be a disaster for BIAL.

with land only for 2 runways, beyond 50 mil its better that Hosur airport be developed as the 2nd airport for the greater blr region. people from TN krishnagiri/ambur side will also benefit.

local politicians will oppose it saying all the money will go to TN. they will instead try to suggest an airport in the west on mysore road where there is no free land available to pocket profits from the realty boom.

TN should just go ahead and offer Hosur as a gateway airport to south Blr.

BIAL should acquire land in the north side if possible for 3rd runway. south side is a higher plateau area where a huge SEZ with road grid is now open

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kempe ... 77.7065928

BIAL with ~4,500 acres of land and minimum 2 independent parallel runways can easily be scaled up to 80+ million annual traffic, although the original planners couldn't really foresee that kind of demand in what was essentially an aviation blackwater of a country in late 1990s.

It would be less efficient operationally and commercially to split the traffic across 2 airports in the Indian context at 40-50mil traffic.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2019 23:24

the top 6 airports score 2/3 of traffic @ 200 mil while rest of pack add another 100 mil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... er_traffic

problem with 2 runways @ 50+ mil will be hitting limit of takeoff and landing slots in the peak periods of morning and evening, leading to less convenient times.

still given that hosur apt is only a small land parcel, we have no option but to keep going with BIAL upto 80-100 mil levels.

east and south of blr is TN
west is densely populated mysore road
only NW tumkur road and north of BIAL toward AP border offer sparser tracts for a peking type airport with 4 runways

the eventual huge new airport (HNA) will need minimum 4 runways and be located north of BIAL imo.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 12 Jan 2019 23:49

Austin wrote:Few pilots I have interacted with spoke about lack of Cat 2 and Cat 3 being a hindrance for BIAL , They would rather have this first than any other thing there. Again this is just an informal conversation with them cant really confirm


sirji,

why would any pilot bother about Cat 2 and Cat 3??

They get paid, whether they take off or not.

OTOH, the airline management would worry a lot about Cat 2 and Cat 3.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 12 Jan 2019 23:55

Singha wrote:the top 6 airports score 2/3 of traffic @ 200 mil while rest of pack add another 100 mil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... er_traffic

problem with 2 runways @ 50+ mil will be hitting limit of takeoff and landing slots in the peak periods of morning and evening, leading to less convenient times.

still given that hosur apt is only a small land parcel, we have no option but to keep going with BIAL upto 80-100 mil levels.

east and south of blr is TN
west is densely populated mysore road
only NW tumkur road and north of BIAL toward AP border offer sparser tracts for a peking type airport with 4 runways

the eventual huge new airport (HNA) will need minimum 4 runways and be located north of BIAL imo.


guess which humbling farming, père et fils own an obscene amount of land in these areas and things are proceeding just according to plan??

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 Jan 2019 00:00

It is not just about their pay in low viability condition they would want to have that facility at the airport.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2019 00:15

in a few years the individual ILS systems for each end of each runway could get replaced by GBAS systems that are maturing fast though not yet in service @ cat3 level

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local-are ... ion_system

One of the primary benefits of LAAS is that a single installation at a major airport can be used for multiple precision approaches within the local area. For example, if Chicago O'Hare has twelve runway ends, each with a separate ILS, all twelve ILS facilities can be replaced with a single LAAS system. This represents a significant cost savings in maintenance and upkeep of the existing ILS equipment.

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 15 Jan 2019 20:03

Min of Civil Aviation realeased Vision 2040 document. Some ultra ambitious goals like 70% local assy of all airliner and even some exports.

Most interesting of all is possibility of our own leasing industry. We have had discussions on this part here.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ma-455019/

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 16 Jan 2019 05:41

JayS wrote:Min of Civil Aviation realeased Vision 2040 document. Some ultra ambitious goals like 70% local assy of all airliner and even some exports.

Most interesting of all is possibility of our own leasing industry. We have had discussions on this part here.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ma-455019/


If it's anything like the way military aviation purchases have been incompetently negotiated, the country is set to hemorrhage forex like a river.


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