Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Neela
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neela » 04 Feb 2019 14:49

Singha
Yes, Atlanta does paint a grey dim picture from outside. More so in winter.
But it has 5 runways. Your pic shows 4. There is another one to the left of your pic which handles cargo.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neela » 04 Feb 2019 15:36

Anyone knows what'll happen to CSIA after Navi Mumbai opening?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Supratik » 04 Feb 2019 18:44

CSIA will continue as before but it has breeched its capacity. Hence, NM airport which is under construction and first phase will be ready by 2020.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 04 Feb 2019 18:56

The new airport is also being built by GVK, right? So I assume they'd use both optimally to maximize RoI. Mumbai anyway has enough population to require at least two full fledged airports.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Feb 2019 19:36

CSIA has to continue. it can handle around 800 flights comfortably and 1000 in surgex mode. there is a vast infra on both sides of it, including MROs, hotels, big approach roads.... it can maybe become a mainly domestic airport because domestic flights at night hours are now routine and getting busier.

but a high speed seamless rail is needed between these two for connecting passengers. leaving them to make track by bus or taxi with heavy combat loads is not fair....cranky kids, 70kg loads, tired backs , sulky wife .... life could not get better.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Feb 2019 22:19

The distance between T2/T1 and the new Airport even in good times would be around 1 hrs 45 mins plus may be 2 but during normal traffic this would be a good 2.5-3 hours journey and a tiring one.

I heard the new airport at Navi Mumbai would handle cargo traffic while passenger would still use T2/T1

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Feb 2019 22:20

CR929


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Feb 2019 22:23

NEW DELHI: New Delhi: IndiGo has grounded an Airbus A320 Neo after yet another trouble with the Pratt & Whitney (PW) engine. The aircraft (VT-ITW) was preparing to take off from Lucknow for Delhi last Thursday (Jan 31) as 6E 447. On the take off point, pilots found that one of the two engines did not have any power. The plane returned to the bay and is now grounded in Lucknow, awaiting engine replacement.
It is learnt that another IndiGo A320 Neo (VT-IVD) was also grounded at Bengaluru on the same day (Jan 31) and sources say this aircraft is awaiting replacement of one of its PW engines. Flight tracking websites showed this A320 new engine option (Neo) had operated a Pune-Bengaluru flight that day after which there are no other flights shown for this registration. IndiGo did not comment on the Bengaluru grounding and whether it was due to a PW engine snag.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neela » 05 Feb 2019 01:29

Singha wrote:CSIA has to continue. it can handle around 800 flights comfortably and 1000 in surgex mode. there is a vast infra on both sides of it, including MROs, hotels, big approach roads.... it can maybe become a mainly domestic airport because domestic flights at night hours are now routine and getting busier.

but a high speed seamless rail is needed between these two for connecting passengers. leaving them to make track by bus or taxi with heavy combat loads is not fair....cranky kids, 70kg loads, tired backs , sulky wife .... life could not get better.


Sirji, 800 flights avg at CSIA in a day is not something to be proud about with just one operational runway.
I cringed when News channels announced there were 1000 arr/deps at CSIA sometime last year. It leaves very little margins between planes and enormous stress on ATC. As it is, in CSIA , you get the feeling that things are really close and in your face.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 05 Feb 2019 03:18

True, when I first read about the 1000 flights per hour with only 1 runway at Mumbai I was scared not proud. Since they have given up on building a third runway and the simultaneous cross-runway operations actually ended up with less throughput it means there is zero scope for increasing flights to Mumbai from anywhere now. If anything they need to reduce the number once NMIA starts operations.

CSIA also has the problem of Juhu Aerodrome being barely 2-3 km from CSIA. As the traffic at CSIA has grown exponentially, there have been near misses between commercial airliners from CSIA and small private aircraft/helos from Juhu as well. So it is not just the flights from CSIA itself that the ATC has to worry about.

One interesting fact about CSIA is that when it was originally built in 1940 or something, it was an RAF base called RAF SantaCruz. AT that time it had three intersecting runways, not 2. I guess one of them was demolished for increasing terminal/apron space somewhere down the line. Another fun fact is that Juhu Aerodrome is even older and was built way back in 1928. It was India's first civil airport when it was built. There were two incidents, a BOAC comet in the 1950's and a JAL DC-8 in the 1970's where the pilot got confused between JUhu and CSIA and landed in Juhu by mistake where the runway is too short for commercial aircraft. The Comet survived and was flown out, but the JAL DC-8 had to be scrapped.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 05 Feb 2019 10:26

Austin wrote:The distance between T2/T1 and the new Airport even in good times would be around 1 hrs 45 mins plus may be 2 but during normal traffic this would be a good 2.5-3 hours journey and a tiring one.

I heard the new airport at Navi Mumbai would handle cargo traffic while passenger would still use T2/T1

Something like ~70%+ of international cargo and around 90%+of domestic air cargo in our country travels in the belly of passenger aircraft. Creation of a cargo only airport has to account for this fact, which is conveniently ignored by politicians who promise these things to the public.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Feb 2019 10:47

By value or volume ? Do you have data sources for that ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2019 12:22

well I cut them some buffer reducing flts to 800 movements from the all time peak of 1000 last year.
tough, but someone has to do it.
it will take some time for NMIA to get all the expway and rail links that will match the convenience of current one. ideally this should happen in parallel with airport.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2019 13:30

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2019 13:30

Deepak Talwar acted as middleman in civil aviation agreements which caused loss to Air India

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s&from=mdr

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 05 Feb 2019 13:34

Austin wrote:Deepak Talwar acted as middleman in civil aviation agreements which caused loss to Air India

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s&from=mdr


yes, indeed.

he was/is a powarful man.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 05 Feb 2019 15:13

Austin wrote:Image

Err... A HAL door opens when an Airbus takes off? What kind of an advertisement is that?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 05 Feb 2019 16:12

Suraj wrote:By value or volume ? Do you have data sources for that ?

By volume Suraj Saar.

I do not have hard statistics, but it's easy to make rough estimates. Even if you obtain airline wise stats, most operators don't reveal split between what they carried onboard a freighter vs in th belly of a pax plane.

Domestic market is the easiest. After 7 decades of independence, we have a grand total of 1 domestic freighter operator in BlueDart with something like 6 B757s in total plus SpiceJet's recent very tentative entry with B737s. What volume will they contribute?

International is where things are more favourable to freighter operators. A combination of cargo size/shape, nature etc often mandates usage of a freighter. So the big airports at DEL and BOM have a good freighter network in place. The freighter numbers fall off a cliff when you move to the next tier at BLR, MAA and HYD.

Now compare these few movements of 60-100 MT per flight freighters to someone like Emirates lifting 20-25 MT per trip on B777-300ERs three to five times a day at places like DEL. By the time you run through the list of passenger widebody operators flying in and out of Delhi, the freighter guys are left far behind. The numbers only get worse for the freighter operators as you move to smaller airports which lack the demand levels to justify large scale frieghter ops.

In fact, globally the rise of the modern cargo-friendly widebodies and the B777-300ER in particular which is practically comparable to a narrow body freighter in terms of cargo uplift, has really hurt the pure freighter segment.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2019 21:11

Looks like serious screw up and serious ego issue in the cockpit

GoAir A320 crew shut down wrong engine after birdstrike

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2019 23:52

One strange accident due to stall , A330 crashes with 3 pilots in cockpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LUGaW6TyE

They need to automate the cockpit if possible for Stall scenario like they do for ACAS/TCAS where the computer take over the aircraft , A small error during stall can lead to accident and humans can get over whelmed or panic

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 01:35

Austin wrote:One strange accident due to stall , A330 crashes with 3 pilots in cockpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LUGaW6TyE

They need to automate the cockpit if possible for Stall scenario like they do for ACAS/TCAS where the computer take over the aircraft , A small error during stall can lead to accident and humans can get over whelmed or panic

Ha! What is the Boeing MCAS if not a automated stall prevention system, albeit for a specific scenario? And we know what happened to the Lion Air jet when the system received faulty data. That is the problem with any automated system. When it receives faulty data due to a sensor failure etc., it either detects it and shuts down so that the pilot can recover (AF 447) or worse, acts based on the faulty data (the Lion air crash). In either situation it is the pilot's skill and training that has to save the day.

There are also automatic stick pusher systems in Boeing aircraft IIRC, which activate after the stick shaker stall warning has been active for a while but the Pilot has not taken the right steps to recover.

There is no substitute for rigorous pilot training and strict performance standards. In the Lion Air case, it was inadequate training (pilot not being told about MCAS), while in AF 447 case one has to wonder how the first officer Bonin managed to pass his qualification tests considering how he reacted to a stall.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Avtar Singh » 06 Feb 2019 03:24

The air chance case was not so simple as…. Recovering from a stall.

I think they were careless/not paying attention, no doubt in my mind, flew into a thunderstorm. Once pitot/static/aoa and everything is iced up, data from them will be corrupted and all fcs will throw their hands up and fall over…

warnings; over speed/stall/computers going off line/autopilot/auto-throttle disconnecting will all be going off…together

the only valid information that remains is that from the irs systems since they do not require external inputs… one has to be able to read/interpret it
a lot of procedures and training came into place after this.
Generally under the title “unreliable airspeed”

air chance pilots are no doubt well looked after…..
I can imagine them sitting there lights turned up enjoying 3 course meal with wine… Not paying attention to weather radar.. Before they know it all hell breaks loose, turbulence would have been very rough along with everything going off in the cockpit.

air chance/pilot union at the time did try to blame it on airbus pitot/static systems but ultimately the pilots did not have training to cope with ensuing situation
air chance do tend to crash quite a lot

I think, due lack of seating, one family actually split up; one child stayed with the wife and other child stayed with father. Half the family stayed behind and survived.

All systems are useless without the data… which was not there in the air chance case.



London Gatwick only has 1 runway… the second runway talked about in video is emergency runway only and functions as a taxiway.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 03:52

Avtar Singh you are right, the AF case was more complicated than simple stall. But the fact remains that the left seat pilot did react correctly and tried to push the nose down to recover from the stall once it developed. It was Bonin who IMHO was the main reason for the crash since he continued holding his stick back the entire time, nullifying the efforts of the other pilot (who became more confused seeing his inputs having no effect). In fact, the stall itself did not occur immediately after the Autopilot and auto-thrust shut off. It developed because Bonin pulled back on his stick and continued holding it there.

Bottom line is that the pilots had 2 perfectly fine engines, all control surfaces working, artificial horizon and the altimeter as well. Any decent pilot should be able to keep the aircraft flying level in this scenario even with an unreliable airspeed indicator. But I feel with all this reliance on automation a lot of pilots don't have the skill and confidence in themselves to fly these jets when those systems fail or misbehave.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Feb 2019 09:57

Nachi , Avtar , Good post and valid point .....I agree with AF447 Bonin did an elementary mistake which lead to other events and finally leading to the crash with all hands in cockpit. The captain should not have either gone to sleep when the weather situation turned bad or should have been woken up

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neela » 06 Feb 2019 11:58

Austin,
CAptain going to sleep and pilot rotation is standard practice in the industry for long haul flights.
1 captain + 2 flight officers is usually required.
2 staff at all times in the cockpit
All 3 officers must be in cockpit for takeoff and landing.
The exact times at which rest are taken are usually decided at the pre-flight briefing.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neela » 06 Feb 2019 12:06

Avtar Singh wrote:air chance pilots are no doubt well looked after…..
I can imagine them sitting there lights turned up enjoying 3 course meal with wine… Not paying attention to weather .

The above is conjecture and I doubt if it is true.
Accident investigation results are out in the open for the flight. .
Thunderstorms were expected. The captain informed the other 2 before going to take rest.
Also doubt the wine statement. I doubt if they are served alcohol in the 1st place.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Feb 2019 14:53

Neela wrote:Austin,
CAptain going to sleep and pilot rotation is standard practice in the industry for long haul flights.
1 captain + 2 flight officers is usually required.
2 staff at all times in the cockpit
All 3 officers must be in cockpit for takeoff and landing.
The exact times at which rest are taken are usually decided at the pre-flight briefing.


Yes what the Captain did was not technically wrong but I was watching a good documentary on this crash and it seems the Captain went to sleep knowing the weather was getting bad something he could have avoided

here is the documentary , this is the better one I found on the crash


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 07 Feb 2019 07:32

Austin wrote:
Neela wrote:Austin,
CAptain going to sleep and pilot rotation is standard practice in the industry for long haul flights.
1 captain + 2 flight officers is usually required.
2 staff at all times in the cockpit
All 3 officers must be in cockpit for takeoff and landing.
The exact times at which rest are taken are usually decided at the pre-flight briefing.


Yes what the Captain did was not technically wrong but I was watching a good documentary on this crash and it seems the Captain went to sleep knowing the weather was getting bad something he could have avoided
Did not see the video but the accident report is out there, with lot of detail including roll angles of the craft and maybe even the conversations (which I did not hear).

That zone is famous/notorious for its storms ...which are routine. They still happen. So this was just one more. These storms run quite high in altitude so there was no overflying it. Basic issue started with the air speed indicators going kaput (the plane sent automatic messages to the HQ about equipment malfunction ?).

Odd thing is that though the CVR and black box (which told the full story) were recovered almost 2 years later (after a systematic submarine search of the sea floor conducted by French govt), the French govt. had a good idea of the basic cause almost immediately. The recommendation to change to a heated pitot tube (Thales?) went out within a week of the accident. I have no idea how they figured it out with zero data on the terrible event.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Feb 2019 09:04

SriKumar wrote:
Austin wrote:
Yes what the Captain did was not technically wrong but I was watching a good documentary on this crash and it seems the Captain went to sleep knowing the weather was getting bad something he could have avoided
Did not see the video but the accident report is out there, with lot of detail including roll angles of the craft and maybe even the conversations (which I did not hear).

That zone is famous/notorious for its storms ...which are routine. They still happen. So this was just one more. These storms run quite high in altitude so there was no overflying it. Basic issue started with the air speed indicators going kaput (the plane sent automatic messages to the HQ about equipment malfunction ?).

Odd thing is that though the CVR and black box (which told the full story) were recovered almost 2 years later (after a systematic submarine search of the sea floor conducted by French govt), the French govt. had a good idea of the basic cause almost immediately. The recommendation to change to a heated pitot tube (Thales?) went out within a week of the accident. I have no idea how they figured it out with zero data on the terrible event.



maybe, recovered parts of the wreckage gave them a clue as to how the aircraft impacted the water, inspection of the engine gave them a clue as to what the engine was doing at the moment of impact.

If you have some idea of these two, you can work back logically to a set of probable circumstances and develop further from there.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2019 10:37

SriKumar watch the video when you get a chance to do its good including pilot conversation from FDR/Blackbox etc its something I watched multiple times and it haunts me.

If I heard it right they say had the pilot continued flying for 5 minis the pitot tube would have recovered and there was no other issue with the aircraft but Bonin panicked and did all the wrong thing making a simple issue into a crash , The Captain came in late by then the aircraft was in stall although to his credit and experience he figured out what was wrong although it was late by then like may be few seconds before hitting the ground.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2019 15:03

Image

Manu Pubby

Verified account

@manupubby
Follow Follow @manupubby
MoreThis is what Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd plans to do at the Nagpur facility - aims to build the entire Falcon 2000 jet here.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2019 03:22

SriKumar wrote:Odd thing is that though the CVR and black box (which told the full story) were recovered almost 2 years later (after a systematic submarine search of the sea floor conducted by French govt), the French govt. had a good idea of the basic cause almost immediately. The recommendation to change to a heated pitot tube (Thales?) went out within a week of the accident. I have no idea how they figured it out with zero data on the terrible event.

There had been several prior incidents of icing in pitot tubes causing loss of airspeed information in Air France's Airbus fleet. They already knew the Thales pitot tubes were faulty and had replaced them on part of their fleet. When the ACARS messages from AF 447 indicated a fault in the pitot-static system they put 2 and 2 together. Did not need the FDR for that.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2019 03:23

Austin wrote:Manu Pubby

Verified account

@manupubby
Follow Follow @manupubby
MoreThis is what Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd plans to do at the Nagpur facility - aims to build the entire Falcon 2000 jet here.

That is incredible if it is carried through.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Feb 2019 03:40

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote:Manu Pubby

Verified account

@manupubby
Follow Follow @manupubby
MoreThis is what Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd plans to do at the Nagpur facility - aims to build the entire Falcon 2000 jet here.

That is incredible if it is carried through.


something is stirring in India.

First it was lockheed with their F-16 and now dassault with their falcon.

maybe the china dream is slowly fading for these guys??

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 03:53

The china dream is only vague memories of being drugged and molested. Every mnc has been through that hype cycle followed by waking up on road the morning after - wallets clothing and IP all gone

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Feb 2019 04:27

Austin wrote:Looks like serious screw up and serious ego issue in the cockpit

GoAir A320 crew shut down wrong engine after birdstrike




Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 08 Feb 2019 13:31

Singha wrote:The china dream is only vague memories of being drugged and molested. Every mnc has been through that hype cycle followed by waking up on road the morning after - wallets clothing and IP all gone


Hopefully they still have their kidneys.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Feb 2019 14:23

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:Looks like serious screw up and serious ego issue in the cockpit

GoAir A320 crew shut down wrong engine after birdstrike




Image


:lol: :lol:

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Feb 2019 14:27


Austin
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Feb 2019 16:08

Jumbo/Queen of Skies Turns 50 Today

https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/sta ... 9913761793


Probably the only Civil Aircraft design that was far ahead of its time


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