Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Apr 2019 23:29

Zynda wrote:
nachiket wrote:Basically the FAA's safety inspectors are designated Boeing employees who have been vetted and certified by the FAA to act as its own representatives. But they are still being paid by Boeing!! So the people certifying Boeing's aircraft as safe are Boeing's own employees but they can give them an FAA certificate. Huge conflict of interest here but this has gone on for decades and it keeps getting worse.

Per my experience, this mechanism was designed to avoid huge costs incurred during FAA inspection/certification services. AFAIK, the product company is responsible for covering the travel, per diem, lodging & transportation costs of the FAA inspector as long as required apart from the hourly fees charged by the individual/FAA. For many small companies, this leads to huge costs. The above was seen as a compromise. Further, from what I understand, the designee mechanism also can speed up product development pace. The FAA probably wants to or can hire only so much people and with so many companies wanting to certify different products, the wait list for next available FAA personal can be long and thus delaying product development. The designee can help in alleviating the above. Many companies only invite FAA inspectors/certification folks only during final process while using designee folks for checking for compliance during the early & intermediate design process.

In theory, like you mentioned, the loyalty of the Designee rests with FAA while he is paid by the employer. In one of my peecha company, I knew many such designees. Most of them would refuse to sign or put down their name if they were not satisfied with the process/outcome. One of such person (a fav of mine) would say that if his names comes up as the person who was responsible for signing a faulty design/document, then it would become an express ticket to jail. Many of the other employees, particularly, from different departments would see these designees as an annoyance and nuisance even though they acknowledged the spirit of the intent behind such designee.

But it is possible in bigger OEMs like Boeing, which may have the clout to threaten to disrupt a person's career if that individual does not pay heed to organizations bigger picture or whatever, the designee mechanism may not be accomplishing the required intent. Perhaps, the FAA can re-examine on how to involve FAA inspectors/certification folks early on during the design & testing process.


It is somewhat similar in India too.

A majority of the DGCA check pilots are airline employees and they wield huge clout within the airline pilot community.

Many nasty stories to go with such conflicts of interest and most of them are true.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 09 Apr 2019 12:22

Here's an interesting one. The Comac Lingque-B. Scaled models with lilliputian engines flew in both wind tunnel and open air for the past two years. Cheen make great drones and toys.

They have big plans for the future, especially on their huge home market.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 09 Apr 2019 17:48

I get a feeling that the MAX will simply sweep up, stall and crash in a high lift situation. This would have seen in the simulations, and decided "Hey! We had been flying all these fighters that are designed unstable! Just let the software correct it!"

And the inability to use the Trim Wheel to move the horizontal stabilizer because of air speed might not have appeared in the analysis either I guess. Also, looking at the cockpit layout, I am not sure how well a pilot sitting in the seat can exert sufficient force to rotate the trim wheel against the pressure.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 21:09

are all of todays commercial a/c statically stable as in they will return to level flight with no SW tricks needed, if the pilot dives or pulls up or banks and then leaves the stick alone ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 10 Apr 2019 14:43

It is my understanding that they are statically stable. There is no need or benefit to go otherwise. Remember that stabilizing under software control is energy inefficient. The constantly moving control surfaces cause extra drag etc.

Even the MAX should be stable normally, but go tits up and stall when going at high AoA and high engine thrust.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Apr 2019 02:03

After watching multiple videos explaining the problem and dissecting the preliminary crash report, it is obvious that both accidents could have been avoided if Boeing had done the following three things:

1. Inform pilots and operators about the existence of the MCAS system, what it does and why it is needed.
2. Provide an indication in the cockpit when the MCAS system turns on and off.
3. Provide a turn-off switch for the MCAS alone, without connecting it to the Stabilizer Trim cutout which renders the entire electric stabilizer trim system inoperable.

The only reason they did not do this was to avoid necessitating Pilot retraining so they could advertise that Airlines could save a lot of money by easily moving 737 NG pilots to the new jets. Boeing themselves saved time and money by not testing and verifying all possible failure modes in varying conditions for the MCAS.

They are still not doing this and claiming the problem will be resolved with a Software fix. I personally am going to avoid flying on the MAX even after it gets back into service if they go this route.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 11 Apr 2019 05:46

nachiket wrote: They are still not doing this and claiming the problem will be resolved with a Software fix. I personally am going to avoid flying on the MAX even after it gets back into service if they go this route.
I am thinking this will be the position of many people given BOeing's response after Lion Air crash (where they tried to blame the pilots AND tried to convince people the pilots were made aware of the new system, when they actually tried to do just the opposite.). They still have not made a statement about how the MCAS controls the flight dynamics that clearly changed due to the engine moving forward. Unless that story comes out fully, we dont know what's going on. (I am not convinced that the three things you listed is the sum total of all the current issues with the 787 MAX. I dont have proof, but I dont think that is the whole story. ).

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Apr 2019 06:08

SriKumar wrote:
nachiket wrote: They are still not doing this and claiming the problem will be resolved with a Software fix. I personally am going to avoid flying on the MAX even after it gets back into service if they go this route.
I am thinking this will be the position of many people given BOeing's response after Lion Air crash (where they tried to blame the pilots AND tried to convince people the pilots were made aware of the new system, when they actually tried to do just the opposite.).

They might have gotten away that nonsense if it hadn't been for the second crash. It is clear to everyone now (especially he pilot community) that Boeing is at fault here. The preliminary report has sealed their fate. Their initial excuse that the crash could have been avoided if only the pilots had followed the runaway stabilizer trim checklist has been conclusively proven false.

They still have not made a statement about how the MCAS controls the flight dynamics that clearly changed due to the engine moving forward. Unless that story comes out fully, we dont know what's going on.

That is understood well now. The new position of the engines causes a pitch up movement during high thrust situations, like takeoff. Since the nose is already pointed up during takeoff this can lead to stall. So the MCAS monitors the AoA values and if the AoA is in danger of getting too high it pre-emptively take action by using the stabilizer trim to pitch the nose down.

(I am not convinced that the three things you listed is the sum total of all the current issues with the 787 MAX. I dont have proof, but I dont think that is the whole story. ).

Oh I wasn't talking about the issues with the aircraft. Merely how the accident could have been avoided. None of the things I mentioned will fix the design deficiencies of the aircraft or the MCAS system itself. Boeing basically put an automated system that could radically alter the flight characteristics of the aircraft without telling the pilots that it exists and for what purpose. To make matters much worse, they did not provide a simple off-switch for the system that did not also render another important flight control system inoperable. To compound this, no additional training was provided to the pilots and no new standard procedures devised to handle failures. Recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 10:00

India deregisters first Jet Airways 737s

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 7s-457393/

India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has processed the deregistration of seven Boeing 737-800s, while it has received requests to deregister 13 more aircraft.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 13 Apr 2019 20:33

nachiket wrote:To make matters much worse, they did not provide a simple off-switch for the system that did not also render another important flight control system inoperable.
This is quite unbelievable, actually. It seems to suggest they dont fully know how their own systems are integrated.

They can come out with a new 'software fix', but questions will remain about their understanding of their control and actuator systems, their Q/A procedures, failure modes analysis and checks for malfunctioning inputs. These things point to fundamental, process issues and not an 'oversight' in software programming. SUch things take a long time to fix, starting with internal reviews of processes. For this reason, a 'software fix in a month from now' does not generate a lot of confidence. (From my perspective, there should also be an open, technical article on changes to flight characteristics due to engine moving front/larger diameter nacelle/longer plane in various flight regimes; for public review. There are enough professors out there who could (i) either write something, or (ii) critique what is written. Boeing should be the one to publish it, but I doubt they would do it.)

I know posters have said Ethiopian had 1 AoA sensor. Published reports show data from 2 AoA sensors, of which one malfunctioned badly. THe other one was fine. Saw it on the web.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Apr 2019 22:11

Austin wrote:India deregisters first Jet Airways 737s

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 7s-457393/

India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has processed the deregistration of seven Boeing 737-800s, while it has received requests to deregister 13 more aircraft.


It must have someone cost a pretty penny.

There was a lot of drama to deregister the kingfisher aircraft.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Apr 2019 21:04

Jet Airways completely grounded international and domestic , Pilot says won’t fly months of unpaid salary

Went KF way hope some deal reaches to rescue them

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2019 21:54

SriKumar wrote:
nachiket wrote:To make matters much worse, they did not provide a simple off-switch for the system that did not also render another important flight control system inoperable.
This is quite unbelievable, actually. It seems to suggest they dont fully know how their own systems are integrated.

They can come out with a new 'software fix', but questions will remain about their understanding of their control and actuator systems, their Q/A procedures, failure modes analysis and checks for malfunctioning inputs. These things point to fundamental, process issues and not an 'oversight' in software programming. SUch things take a long time to fix, starting with internal reviews of processes. For this reason, a 'software fix in a month from now' does not generate a lot of confidence. (From my perspective, there should also be an open, technical article on changes to flight characteristics due to engine moving front/larger diameter nacelle/longer plane in various flight regimes; for public review. There are enough professors out there who could (i) either write something, or (ii) critique what is written. Boeing should be the one to publish it, but I doubt they would do it.)

I know posters have said Ethiopian had 1 AoA sensor. Published reports show data from 2 AoA sensors, of which one malfunctioned badly. THe other one was fine. Saw it on the web.


Ethiopian had 2 AOA sensors however only one provided data at any given time and the other was out of the loop.

There was no means or method to compare the data from these two AOA sensors on the Ethiopian aircraft because Ethiopian had not purchased the mod to enable the simultaneous use of the 2 on board AOA sensors.

All Max8s have 2 AOA (pilot and copilot) sensors but very few airlines have paid boeing to install the mod for both these sensors to provide inputs at the same time and in case of a mismatch, generate a caution/warning in the cockpit to indicate "AOA Disagree".

Obviously, the FDR will record AOA (pilot and copilot) sensor data separately and in the Ethiopian max8, the MCAS could see only the data from the malfunctioning AOA sensor and not from the functioning AOA sensor.

In the Ethiopian case, the MCAS trimmed the nose down by a total of 5 degrees. The pilot apparently did not know or realize that when he switched on the trim again, the MCAS kicked in. The first time the MCAS had trimmed the nose down by 2 and a half degrees and it further trimmed the nose down by 2 and a half degrees when he switched it on again.

He switched on the trim because if he had used only the manual trim wheel to correct the nose down trim. it would have taken them a long time and very many rotations of the manual trim wheel to neutralize the trim so he wanted to do it electrically to save time.

He was already in a dangerous situation because of his low altitude and much higher than normal speed.

The aircraft apparently entered the steep fatal dive shortly after the MCAS commanded the second 2 and a half degrees nose down trim.
Last edited by chetak on 14 Apr 2019 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Apr 2019 22:05

Jet Airways Pilots Say They Will Not Fly From Midnight


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2019 12:58

with 48 month construction time , turkiye has built a gigantic new airport in istanbul ... 2 runways (capacity of 6) ... 90 mil pax for now, 200 mil expansion limit. 150 aerobridges.

turkish airlines is already a giant with lot of routes.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby rajkumar » 15 Apr 2019 16:01

Singha wrote:with 48 month construction time , turkiye has built a gigantic new airport in istanbul ... 2 runways (capacity of 6) ... 90 mil pax for now, 200 mil expansion limit. 150 aerobridges.

turkish airlines is already a giant with lot of routes.


Turkish Airlines is about to give Emirates & Eithad a run for their money. Indigo already has a code share with Turkish and will use its smaller 2 engined fleet.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 16 Apr 2019 13:00

What a mess. But the industry needs consolidation after the heady days of constant expansion and irrational price wars. It was good for the consumers but damaging for the airlines.

Things will be more expensive ... and sustainable after a few rounds.

https://twitter.com/NewsBFM/status/1118000109201969152

BFM News
@NewsBFM
India's Jet Airways has extended its cancellation of all international flights until Thursday, as it fails to secure emergency funding from its lenders. Jet's debts now stand at more than US$1.2 billion, with all but 7 of its aircraft seized by creditors.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby srin » 16 Apr 2019 19:23

I'm puzzled. In one of the fastest growing markets, why do these airlines (KF, AI and now Jet) so debt ridden and/or going out of business ? Are they selling tickets below cost to gain marketshare ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2019 22:04

The Unravelling Of Jet Airways, Revealed By A Pilot

https://www.ndtv.com/blog/the-unravelli ... topstories

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ldev » 17 Apr 2019 11:26

Singha wrote:with 48 month construction time , turkiye has built a gigantic new airport in istanbul ... 2 runways (capacity of 6) ... 90 mil pax for now, 200 mil expansion limit. 150 aerobridges.

turkish airlines is already a giant with lot of routes.


Was there last week, 6 days after it opened. Tremendous achievement. Yes, ground breaking to commercial opening in 48 months. A massive increase in size/capacity compared to the old Ataturk airport. And it is built on a land area greater than the size of the island of Manhattan. 2 runways operational now, 6 in total eventually, parking for ~400-500 aircraft, 40,000 car garage in Terminal 1 currently, more Terminals to be built. Turkish construction companies are very good, besides doing all the mega projects in their own country such as this airport and highway projects, they have built a number of projects in CIS countries to the north and even in Russia and Ukraine.

If Turkish airlines flying to the largest number of cities in the world and with over 200 aircraft can be profitable, I don't know what ails airlines in India.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby negi » 17 Apr 2019 11:35

Austin wrote:The Unravelling Of Jet Airways, Revealed By A Pilot

https://www.ndtv.com/blog/the-unravelli ... topstories

Pilots were part of the gravy train ; it's sad to see the airline go down due to malpractices of few but when you sign up for an organisation , within months of working for any institution one can tell if it carries out shady business , the right thing to do is to abandon such a ship when one can on one's own terms. I hope someone acquires Jet while it is still worth something.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Apr 2019 13:56

Negi , Not an easy decision to move if your next big carrier is all Airbus and you have then to move from B to A do the type ratings and stuff like that.

Many pilots are on loans either from training or personal which they have to make sure their EMI goes and prefer stability in their career so moving jobs is not easy and there is always hope things will be fixes.

I am wondering what happens to the 1000 Boeing Pilots who become jobess over night not to mention not paid for 3-4 months , Does the Aviation industry has the capacity to absorb them ? How many big airlines runs B versis A ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 17 Apr 2019 14:46

A lot of Boeing type rated pilots jumped ship and moved overseas, some opted in for the GoAir/Indigo bait offered. The Airbus boys are playing the wait and watch game if Vistara/Air Asia choose to bid for Jet's slots. These guys lived like kings even customising their roster and destinations, such was the rot in their operations.

The real losers are the administrative staff and technical ground crew who have nowhere to go in the interim but with skills transferable will most likely move out of aviation.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 17 Apr 2019 16:25

srin wrote:I'm puzzled. In one of the fastest growing markets, why do these airlines (KF, AI and now Jet) so debt ridden and/or going out of business ? Are they selling tickets below cost to gain marketshare ?


Yes, it does comes down to that. In the end, business really is in simple red and black.

But the complications in making sure you are in not in the red are legion!

Inability to reduce waste, inability to retain skills (thereby incurring endless retraining costs), inability to compete on the most profitable routes, etc.

But in the end, you need marketshare to generate revenue but you need competitive pricing (especially among desis!) to capture marketshare. So if there is a price war then you have little leeway. I think it is safe to say that the price wars lowered the margin of error for many airlines like Jet, KF, Zoom, etc.

And on top of that, there is the little matter of Air India sitting on many potentially profitable routes who gets the advantage of GOI subsidies to sustain their operations over yours.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 17 Apr 2019 16:36

Austin wrote:Negi , Not an easy decision to move if your next big carrier is all Airbus and you have then to move from B to A do the type ratings and stuff like that.

Many pilots are on loans either from training or personal which they have to make sure their EMI goes and prefer stability in their career so moving jobs is not easy and there is always hope things will be fixes.

I am wondering what happens to the 1000 Boeing Pilots who become jobess over night not to mention not paid for 3-4 months , Does the Aviation industry has the capacity to absorb them ? How many big airlines runs B versis A ?


many of these guys already have offers from the gelf airlines but the pay scales there are not so fancy for relocating jet pilots.

spice has hired ex jet guys at less than 50% of what they are making now and that is still more than 99.9999999% of what the rest of the country makes.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby neerajb » 17 Apr 2019 16:50

Dileep wrote:It is my understanding that they are statically stable. There is no need or benefit to go otherwise. Remember that stabilizing under software control is energy inefficient. The constantly moving control surfaces cause extra drag etc.

Even the MAX should be stable normally, but go tits up and stall when going at high AoA and high engine thrust.


Dileep, The stability comes at a cost i.e. drag. In a stable aircraft, the tail is trying to compensate for nose heavy (cg before cp) tendency by applying downward lift. This costs drag and has net negative contribution towards total lift.

In unstable aircraft, it is opposite, tail tries to balance the nose up by upward lift contributing positively to total lift and hence less drag. You can have a smaller wing for same lift (tail is contributing positively) which further reduces the drag etc.

The challenge is to keep the aircraft stable under all conditions using electronics. Traditionally designers took a hit on efficiency for sake of safety and simplicity.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nits » 17 Apr 2019 17:07

mmasand wrote:A lot of Boeing type rated pilots jumped ship and moved overseas, some opted in for the GoAir/Indigo bait offered. The Airbus boys are playing the wait and watch game if Vistara/Air Asia choose to bid for Jet's slots. These guys lived like kings even customising their roster and destinations, such was the rot in their operations.

The real losers are the administrative staff and technical ground crew who have nowhere to go in the interim but with skills transferable will most likely move out of aviation.


there are Lot of Trainees who paid jet in tune of 95 Laks for learning and becoming Pilots - Number is 150+ this trainees have already paid money for 2 years and have just cloaked 500 Flying Hours where as minimum is 1500 Hours of Flying for Pilot Licencse

Not only they have lost money but there training has stopped mid way... Sad

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 17 Apr 2019 18:03

nits wrote:there are Lot of Trainees who paid jet in tune of 95 Laks for learning and becoming Pilots - Number is 150+ this trainees have already paid money for 2 years and have just cloaked 500 Flying Hours where as minimum is 1500 Hours of Flying for Pilot Licencse

Not only they have lost money but there training has stopped mid way... Sad


Indeed, there was a period about 10 years ago after KF went out of business, several of these trainees waiting to rake up flight hours were unemployed for 2-3 years. Eventually things will turn around for them, a lot of Indian pilots are replacing the Aussies/Kiwis/Brits in Indonesia and surrounding islands.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 18 Apr 2019 00:58

I dearly hope Jet's widebody fleet is picked up on the cheap by another Indian carrier. The banks will be auctioning off these jets pretty soon, if they haven't done so already. There isn't a single Indian private carrier with widebodies being operated or on order. It is basically just Air India now. Good chance for one of the new entrants to leapfrog the likes of Indigo without having to spend on expensive brand new B777s. Jet's 777's aren't that old and will have a lot of life left in them.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby srin » 18 Apr 2019 08:21

Two analyses:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-17/what-jet-airways-near-collapse-says-about-india-s-economy
On one level, you could argue that this is a good sign for India: Its institutions are holding up. State-owned banks are Jet’s biggest creditors and they seem unwilling to throw more money at the airline without a clear revival plan. This is a big change from the past, when they kept supporting one of Jet’s rivals, the ill-fated Kingfisher Airlines Ltd., long after it seemed rational to do so.

In the end, however, the market wins out. If you are competing against low-cost airlines that still somehow provide equivalent service in economy class -- not to mention a full-service airline, Air India Ltd., that’s state-owned and can absorb whatever losses it wants -- you can’t dodge fate forever.


If Jet collapses, we should see its demise as another sign that sectors in even an increasingly prosperous India may not look like their counterparts elsewhere. Or perhaps we are just ahead of the times, and low-cost carriers may slowly eat away at full-service airlines across the world.


https://www.deccanherald.com/business/five-things-that-went-wrong-for-jet-airways-729113.html
Many aviation experts believe the start of Jet's financial troubles can be traced back to the 2006 purchase of Air Sahara for $500 million in cash. Founder Naresh Goyal reportedly ignored the advice of professional associates who said he was paying too much. Market reaction to the deal was also decidedly mixed. The budget carrier was rebranded "JetLite" but it haemorrhaged money and in 2015, Jet wrote off its entire investment.

"Jet always catered to corporates and failed to recognise that low-cost carriers were attracting customers who were price sensitive," he added.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Apr 2019 09:24

GOI need to set up a certain base price for Airline ticket keeping into account the sustainability of Airlines that cater to customers across range and reduce fuel surcharge tax so that we dont have constant collapse of airlines catering to mid-premium segment.

At this rate only the Enternally bailed on public money Air India and Sweat Shop Air Indigo types will survive.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 18 Apr 2019 09:53

nachiket wrote:I dearly hope Jet's widebody fleet is picked up on the cheap by another Indian carrier. The banks will be auctioning off these jets pretty soon, if they haven't done so already. There isn't a single Indian private carrier with widebodies being operated or on order. It is basically just Air India now. Good chance for one of the new entrants to leapfrog the likes of Indigo without having to spend on expensive brand new B777s. Jet's 777's aren't that old and will have a lot of life left in them.


Unlikely boss, most of these wide bodies belong to lease companies. If any of them have been paid up, they will most likely be sold at very competitive rates in the intl market. Indigo is not keen on diversifying its fleet, they've dropped their order for A330's and chose to enter a code share with Turkish for long haul. Without slots, there is no point in putting in a wide body or two without enough crew to fly them.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 18 Apr 2019 11:16

nits wrote:
mmasand wrote:A lot of Boeing type rated pilots jumped ship and moved overseas, some opted in for the GoAir/Indigo bait offered. The Airbus boys are playing the wait and watch game if Vistara/Air Asia choose to bid for Jet's slots. These guys lived like kings even customising their roster and destinations, such was the rot in their operations.

The real losers are the administrative staff and technical ground crew who have nowhere to go in the interim but with skills transferable will most likely move out of aviation.


there are Lot of Trainees who paid jet in tune of 95 Laks for learning and becoming Pilots - Number is 150+ this trainees have already paid money for 2 years and have just cloaked 500 Flying Hours where as minimum is 1500 Hours of Flying for Pilot Licencse

Not only they have lost money but there training has stopped mid way... Sad


where is this written and under which regulation is it??

don't post junk just because you have access to a keyboard.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 18 Apr 2019 14:30

Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 18 Apr 2019 15:12

nandakumar wrote:Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.


^^^ You are right. There is something very fishy here. I looked at their numbers and their passengers and revenue both doubled between 2010 and 2018. This is not an airline hemorrhaging paying customers as one might expect from a failing business. Until they stopped flights this month, they were the number 2 carrier in the nation with passenger growth in every year.

Jet always had unsavory rumors linking it to the desi underworld, especially the muzzi mafia under Dawood and Chakeel. One wonders if revenue were siphoned.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 18 Apr 2019 15:24

nandakumar wrote:Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.


A full service carrier is not just limited to your domestic 3 hr flight experience minus the meals and a lounge. You're speaking about reduced capacity, increase in legroom, additional crew, wide body, privileges to J/F class pax, five star hotels to crew plus allowances. Their fixed overhead is a lot higher than a LCC.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 18 Apr 2019 15:25

I used to be really proud of Jet and their service in their heyday, but seeing how they have gone in the recent past, I have little sympathy for them. They basically (along with UPA) threw in the towel and let themselves become a feeder airline for Etihad, after being driven into the ground by Naresh Goyal's ego. Whatever solution, if any, is worked out with the banks for Jet, I hope that he is totally removed from the picture.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ldev » 18 Apr 2019 17:44

chola wrote:
nandakumar wrote:Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.


^^^ You are right. There is something very fishy here. I looked at their numbers and their passengers and revenue both doubled between 2010 and 2018. This is not an airline hemorrhaging paying customers as one might expect from a failing business. Until they stopped flights this month, they were the number 2 carrier in the nation with passenger growth in every year.

Jet always had unsavory rumors linking it to the desi underworld, especially the muzzi mafia under Dawood and Chakeel. One wonders if revenue were siphoned.


There were news reports about Etihad saying that if they took over the airline they will cancel all existing ground handling contracts. Maybe they suspect that something is not quite right there.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 18 Apr 2019 18:28

chola wrote:
nandakumar wrote:Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.


^^^ You are right. There is something very fishy here. I looked at their numbers and their passengers and revenue both doubled between 2010 and 2018. This is not an airline hemorrhaging paying customers as one might expect from a failing business. Until they stopped flights this month, they were the number 2 carrier in the nation with passenger growth in every year.

Jet always had unsavory rumors linking it to the desi underworld, especially the muzzi mafia under Dawood and Chakeel. One wonders if revenue were siphoned.


Just where was Naresh Goyal having the money to make a personal bid for the airline in the last 2 weeks? Remember all his shares were already hypothecated/pledged with the Banks and the airline had not declared worthwhile dividends in the last 8-10 years for him to have that source of money. So what is his source of income for maintaining his lifestyle with multiple residences in at least 3 different countries and also for making a multi hundred crore bid?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 18 Apr 2019 18:54

ldev wrote:
chola wrote:
^^^ You are right. There is something very fishy here. I looked at their numbers and their passengers and revenue both doubled between 2010 and 2018. This is not an airline hemorrhaging paying customers as one might expect from a failing business. Until they stopped flights this month, they were the number 2 carrier in the nation with passenger growth in every year.

Jet always had unsavory rumors linking it to the desi underworld, especially the muzzi mafia under Dawood and Chakeel. One wonders if revenue were siphoned.


There were news reports about Etihad saying that if they took over the airline they will cancel all existing ground handling contracts. Maybe they suspect that something is not quite right there.


jet mostly did its own ground handling and they were pretty efficient at it too. Their engineering dept ran a nice tight ship.

ground handling is not the issue. Money is usually siphoned off in spares and aircraft lease charges as these are dollar denominated payments and the lessors are willing to let you skim the cream off the top just so as long as they get paid first. That is what happened in KFA along with thieving and corrupt upper to top management who ran riot pocketing everything in sight, gouging service providers and contractors.


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