Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Feb 2020 21:32

UlanBatori wrote:How do you save fuel by using full throttle at takeoff? Violates 2nd law of thermo. Unless they were trying to use the rocket launch equation and use up all the fuel in one big impulse on the ground..


yak herder saar,

depending on the number of engines one buys, one is offered a variety of options to choose from as part of the standard fit for one's engines.

Larger customers always get the better (best) deal in terms of these optional modifications and upgrades that are given to them free as part of their large purchase.

This sometimes includes derating the engine from max power to some other professionally and safety decided value concurred by the manufacturer as well as the regulatory authority.

On a derated engine, max power is lower anyway thus "saving" fuel over another similar engine not derated.

This saves on needless wear and tear as also lesser fuel burn, lower maintenance reflected in the reduced total cost of ownership of the derated engine

Many operators, (who don't have the derating option) by virtue of company training and company mandated operating procedures restrict take off power to about 75% max setting, this is again TLC for the engine because of lower stresses, lower temps and probably more life in terms of engine cycles, maybe TBO, lower fuel burn ityadi. Generally, after about 1500 feet or so of climb, the max power anyway kicks in via the flight management system/auto throttle/FADEC whatever but then again, the air is now cooler at height, so the thrust, as well as fuel burn, is better for the climb to cruising altitude.

This 75% max allowed power is not set in stone but determined by altitude, temp, weight, runway condition, ityadi but 99.99% of the time it will fit the 75% power constraint.

the difference in fuel burn during take off and cruise can vary by more than 300%. So fuel management is a vital issue for these guys.

UlanBatori
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Feb 2020 02:21

^Thx, all makes sense, but the allegation is that IndiGo pilots really "go", kicking in max throttle. I can see that reducing engine life but not saving fuel. Then again, they may be overloading planes and taking off using max thrust? If you can go to 100% thrust instead of 75%, that's 33% more thrust, which means maybe double the payload for the same runway length and climb profile. I can see THAT making a big difference and being on Corporate orders, until the injuns start failing.

chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Feb 2020 03:28

UlanBatori wrote:^Thx, all makes sense, but the allegation is that IndiGo pilots really "go", kicking in max throttle. I can see that reducing engine life but not saving fuel. Then again, they may be overloading planes and taking off using max thrust? If you can go to 100% thrust instead of 75%, that's 33% more thrust, which means maybe double the payload for the same runway length and climb profile. I can see THAT making a big difference and being on Corporate orders, until the injuns start failing.


flying these highly automated and fly by wire aircraft is not anymore the old procedure of "kick the tyre and light the fire" type of operations where the pilots literally flew by the "seat of their pants"

It takes many people, including the pilots much time to prepare the aircraft for every flight. All parameters are then input into the aircraft's flight management system before take off.

On most aircraft, the precise weight of the loaded aircraft registers because of the weight sensors on the oleos.


not been able to confirm yet if the indigo engines are indeed derated but it looks like goair engines are pilot restricted to reduced thrust settings during take off.

No one overloads planes these days because it registers in the FDR which is by regulation routinely, periodically and religiously "milked" for the recorded data which is then fed into company-specific analysis software that immediately pinpoints the parameters that have exceeded the predetermined limits.

many parameters would be screaming for further analysis on the FDR on such "overloaded" aircraft. Single engine climb performance after a one engine failure past v1 would be an emergency that no pilot would be willing to risk or compromise under overload conditions. His job would be at stake irrespective of who told him to do it because the regulator would simply take his license away.

Though I know of one african no name airline operator, many decades ago, who once overloaded his passenger 707 by over 10 tons, and it scraped the boundary wall of the airport on takeoff and still managed an uneventful touchdown at the other end of its journey.

It sustained serious structural damage though. The pilot simply walked out of the airport and continued right on out of the country.

UlanBatori
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Feb 2020 05:53

^ Old Alaskan tale:
Say, we shot these three moose. You think we can load all 3 on the plane and take off from this clearing?
Well... we did that a while back.
OK!

Plane labored, and hit trees on takeoff, and managed to crashland.
But! Didn't you say that you did this before?
Yup! And that's what happened the last time too!

Dileep
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 10 Feb 2020 12:35

The correct term would be 'max load'. Not 'overload'. I know Indigo takes a lot of freight on board.

Long time ago, when planes had to almost scrape the fence and screech to halt before hitting containers at our old airport, it was a circus during the afternoon flights. Jet (RIP) flies 737 NGs out of the 6000ft runway. The pilot calculates how many passengers and which all pallets of freight he can carry. Sometimes the poor passenger who showed up last doesn't get a seat because it is a clear, hot sky.

We used to fly freight out on them for export. Our logistics folk will confirm the dispatch after the plane takes off.

chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Feb 2020 14:15

UlanBatori ji probably meant load over and above the "max" load which is why he said overload.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Feb 2020 22:53

Dileep wrote:Long time ago, when planes had to almost scrape the fence and screech to halt before hitting containers at our old airport,

Ah the old airport . They used to shut down the road under the approach on the other side of the runway, causing traffic jams all the way to Trivandrum. I have flown from both airports. The new one is so much more TFTA onlee.

neerajb
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby neerajb » 11 Feb 2020 00:40

Just guessing here. Maybe the pilots are using higher flex temp than needed or using TOGA during hot and high to have more buffer and this is what the report is alluding to. But in any case, it should not lead to failures if they are observing the operational limits.

somdev
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby somdev » 11 Feb 2020 02:10

All airline flights in India are IFR and therefore ought to follow SID and STAR procedures. Moving forward with performance based navigation (PBN) GAGAN SBAS will play a key role and enable Localizer Performance with Vertical guidance (LPV) approaches. LPVs are operationally equivalent to a Category I Instrument Landing System (ILS), but are more economical. LPVs do not require the installation or maintenance of navigation aids at the airport since the navigation service is provided to the aircraft entirely by satellites.

GAGAN is already made available.

gagan.aai.aero/gagan/content/faq-0

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 15 Feb 2020 11:37

Bombardier exits commercial aviation, ending bold bet on promising jet

End of an era. Posting in full...
MONTREAL/OTTAWA (Reuters) - Bombardier (BBDb.TO) exited commercial aviation on Thursday, selling a loss-making plane program that ended its high-stakes gamble on a new jet that once drove it to the brink of bankruptcy.

The Canadian plane and train maker sold its minority stake in the A220 jet, formerly known as the CSeries, to Airbus SE (AIR.PA) for $600 million, and said it would take a $1.6 billion charge on the program.

Bombardier once threatened to reshape global aviation with the first all-new narrow-body jet in 30 years, triggering a race by major rivals to develop their own new planes.

But the $6 billion program was beset with delays and cost overruns. Bombardier, which required government bailouts in recent years as it struggled to fund the program, finally sold a majority stake to Airbus in 2017 for one Canadian dollar, partly to avert a potentially devastating trade challenge from U.S. planemaker Boeing Co (BA.N).

The latest deal gives Airbus a 75% stake in the A220 program and the Canadian province of Quebec will own 25%. It also allows Bombardier to avoid future capital investments of about $700 million.

Quebec, which agreed to invest $1 billion in the program in 2015, said it would not spend further on the venture.

Airbus will buy back Quebec’s entire stake on Jan. 1, 2026, said provincial Economy Minister Pierre Fitzgibbon.

“Yes, the aerospace sector has experienced some turbulence these past few years but I think this will soon be behind us,” Fitzgibbon told reporters in Quebec City. “I think this step was essential for the firm to continue its activities.”

The Canadian government, meanwhile, was confident that a C$372 million ($280.59 million) loan it gave Bombardier in 2017 will be repaid and Ottawa will not write it off, a government source said.

The source added it wasn’t yet clear whether Bombardier or Airbus would be responsible for paying the rest of the loan.

Bombardier has been shedding businesses to turn itself around. Chief Executive Alain Bellemare told analysts on Thursday that the “clean up over the past five years” would continue.

“We have options and we are going to continue looking at our options to see if there (are) ways that we can accelerate the deleveraging phase of the turnaround plan,” he said on a conference call.

The company forecast a near-positive cash flow, a closely-watched metric, for 2020. Its cash flow was a negative $1.20 billion in 2019.

The company is weighing a possible sale of its remaining business jet or rail divisions.

Bombardier’s shares were down 1% in afternoon trading after earlier dropping 9% on disappointment the company did not announce a deal to sell its rail unit to France’s Alstom (ALSO.PA).

Bombardier has faced higher rail costs due to a few challenging contracts and has $9.7 billion in outstanding bonds according to Refinitiv data.

The company sees 35-40 deliveries of its flagship Global 7500 business jet in 2020, which list for $73 million each.

Firstly, the Canadian Govt. (or Quebec...not sure which one) rejected sale of Bombardier C-Series production line to a Chinese company. But approved sale to Airbus, which renamed C-series to A220.

Bombardier Rail had made a pitch to IR about thier TRAXX-3 electric loco.

Anyways, it would be wise if GoI can encourage some Indian Pvt. conglomorates to bid for buying Bombardier's Business Jets & Rail groups. Would bring in decades worth of product development experience.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arvin » 15 Feb 2020 13:36

https://www.urbantransportnews.com/alst ... 6-billion/

Their rail biz had already been snapped up by Alsthom for $ 7.6B. Their A220 design would have been worth laying hands on to cut short the learning curve.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 15 Feb 2020 22:21

I guess Alsthom wants to remove as many competition road blocks as possible to compete against the Chinese...so they are now going after Bombardier.

I guess Bombardier's business jets group is still a gold mine...may not make much sense from Business POV but from learning perspective...it is a great buy.

UlanBatori
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Feb 2020 03:14

Dang! those are/were cozy jets, where one just stepped off down to the runway like a big Exec. Also single-class which is very unusual in Khanistan. I really liked those. Remember sitting next to 4-star Jarnail once.

chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Mar 2020 10:47

arvin wrote:https://www.urbantransportnews.com/alstom-to-acquire-bombardiers-rail-business-for-usd-7-6-billion/

Their rail biz had already been snapped up by Alsthom for $ 7.6B. Their A220 design would have been worth laying hands on to cut short the learning curve.



come what may, they would NEVER have sold to India.

chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Mar 2020 10:49

pigeon in goair flight


After rumours of him gone rogue, Griffin came out in a assertive display of aggression in this GoAir flight. This is symbolic as the Western Air Command has failed to detect this low flying object.



https://twitter.com/aniket0608/status/1233629761647214592

deejay
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 07 Mar 2020 11:02

Anyone attending Wings India 2020 from 11th to 15th Mar 2020 at Hyderabad? Let me know here.

https://www.wings-india.in/


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