Indian IT Industry

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Javee
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Javee » 15 Mar 2014 13:43

Whatever said and done, TCS is doing a commendable job overall. They hire arts and science grads from tier 2 or tier 3 places, put them in training for 4 months and place them in assignments. Their team leads and PM'sare doing one hell of a job by delivering assignments using these guys.

I heard one of our sales director cribbing, they are offering ASM services for free if the client agrees to make TCS the sole technology partner :-) They have 6000 people working for one account - AC Nielsen. Typically they are 20% cheaper than some IOP's yet they disclose a 27% margin for the street. The rest of IOP's other than CTS are clueless....

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 15 Mar 2014 13:52

TCS is huge they have good people too who work on pretty neat stuff like indigenous MIL products (tactical commn systems for the IA) so it is ridiculous to use a wide brush and look down upon people just because they belong to a certain company.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby kenop » 16 Mar 2014 10:41

It is just a matter of eco-system. Tatas had various stuff going on in pockets. Most of the niche skills/R&D (software model validation to chemical reaction modelling) has come to TCS menu from the likes of TRDDC and CRL. These kind of skills did not exist in Infy as they had no interest in such fields. None of the technologies/fields handled by TRDDC/CRL were money making in the remotest sense, so the body-shopping ninjjas never touched them.
On the other hand, the ability of TCS to show margins is big deal. Wonder where the Infy lost the touch. They did lose a lot of people from the top/near-top level in sales from NA which would have impacted their top line at least.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yagnasri » 16 Mar 2014 14:44

I want to create a web site. Who in India can provide a good and secure service like that. How to go about it? I am not interested in Infy at all and looking for a Indian company only. Any help gurus.

WARNING - I know almost nothing about software etc and basically a lawyer. So you need to spoon feed me like a baby.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 16 Mar 2014 15:54

negi wrote:TCS is huge they have good people too who work on pretty neat stuff like indigenous MIL products (tactical commn systems for the IA) so it is ridiculous to use a wide brush and look down upon people just because they belong to a certain company.


+1.

I have interviewed many a gora sitting in the US for technical positions. They were no different from our chaps and some had openly faked experience in resume. The South American chaps were honest but plain dumb.

Code coolies etc is a term used by the mentally diseased. Work is work, so is mopping and sweeping. Our economy is at a stage where the majority of the work is at a lower level done mostly by freshers and 2 years exp guys. After 10 years of coding and architecture I see people casually call the entire gamut as code coolies. Some of the stuff I am currently working on does not have a peer product out there, my company also provides services apart from it.

Let's just go easy on the words and ape gora man who on seeing his economy and jobs going for toss comes up with such words.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby subhamoy.das » 16 Mar 2014 17:25

+1 well said!

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby kenop » 16 Mar 2014 17:26

Narayana Rao wrote:I want to create a web site. Who in India can provide a good and secure service like that. How to go about it? I am not interested in Infy at all and looking for a Indian company only. Any help gurus.

WARNING - I know almost nothing about software etc and basically a lawyer. So you need to spoon feed me like a baby.

Your email address please. I'll put in touch with somebody.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby subhamoy.das » 16 Mar 2014 17:30

TCS provides a lot of IT enabled services which requires ncihe domain knowledge and does not involve coding. Example CAD models of buildings. Needs civil engineers but not programmes and i would imagine that the billing rate and the profit marging for such survices will be much higher than a programmer skills!

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2014 20:44

interesting article here , read the comments also.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... ml?hpid=z3

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 16 Mar 2014 21:36

Singha wrote:interesting article here , read the comments also.

Tend to agree with the comments. These days I generally "check" the hobbies/interests of my immediate managers and the folks in team. If they give a blank look (especially the superiors), then I know I am in for trouble :D.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 17 Mar 2014 10:33

Sachin wrote:
Singha wrote:interesting article here , read the comments also.

Tend to agree with the comments. These days I generally "check" the hobbies/interests of my immediate managers and the folks in team. If they give a blank look (especially the superiors), then I know I am in for trouble :D.


My manager says that work life balance is about balancing personal life when in office :-))

I ridiculed the idea and he replied that I dont have "passion". I said passion is like snake oil and it needs to be where it needs to be ;-).

We have not been in good terms since, he tried to put pressure on me and I said if he doesnt like me he can let me go and this was not the only company in India! He stopped trying to be dirty since then. :lol:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2014 19:21

a nikamma director in my previous job also used to speak of "passion" and "we are defined by our work"

I wonder what he will do post retirement - probably try to sneak in at midnight and check emails in his old office just to feel normal :rotfl:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 17 Mar 2014 21:06

Ah so bright bulb Nilekani wants reservations in the private sector; I hate these kind of idiots who walk this planet I mean if this is what he really wanted who stopped him from implementing the same at Infosys when he was at the helm ? Now that he has made enough lard for himself and his coming generations he wants to attain sainthood and talk about reservations , it is easy to talk such BS when stockholders and board of directors are no longer in the room to hound you.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yayavar » 17 Mar 2014 21:10

nilekani/murty et al did not really innovate; but they did make money. Not sure why that qualifies them to be considered as thought leaders, be CM/PM/President and what-not.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 17 Mar 2014 23:05

viv wrote:nilekani/murty et al did not really innovate; but they did make money. Not sure why that qualifies them to be considered as thought leaders, be CM/PM/President and what-not.


Exactly! They were lucky to be at the right place at the right time and smart enough to exploit it. They were not innovators, they were good businessmen.

It's good that NRN has been exposed. Nilekani now wants reservations in private sector!

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 18 Mar 2014 00:25

Singha wrote:interesting article here , read the comments also.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... ml?hpid=z3


Interesting read.
For some reason in India we have the mentality of not caring about our personal life, and take it to be a badge of honor to be in the office 24/7. I was talking to my cousin in BLR some years ago and he told me that I "wouldn't survive" :roll: in BLR because people worked so much and we spoiled (and lazy) people in the US would not be able to cope. :lol:
That mindset needs to change in India. Just last month, a coworker's former coworker (an Indian guy) who had been with this Japanese company in it's US location for 18 years got a heart attack and subsequent stroke and went into a coma. He was in that state for 4 weeks and died this past Saturday.
His coworker (I know another guy who worked with him) told me that the company killed him. They overloaded him with work and he just spent all his time doing it. Now he is dead leaving behind a wife and kids.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby girish.r » 18 Mar 2014 01:03

KJoishy wrote:
Singha wrote:interesting article here , read the comments also.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... ml?hpid=z3


Interesting read.
For some reason in India we have the mentality of not caring about our personal life, and take it to be a badge of honor to be in the office 24/7. I was talking to my cousin in BLR some years ago and he told me that I "wouldn't survive" :roll: in BLR because people worked so much and we spoiled (and lazy) people in the US would not be able to cope. :lol:
That mindset needs to change in India. Just last month, a coworker's former coworker (an Indian guy) who had been with this Japanese company in it's US location for 18 years got a heart attack and subsequent stroke and went into a coma. He was in that state for 4 weeks and died this past Saturday.
His coworker (I know another guy who worked with him) told me that the company killed him. They overloaded him with work and he just spent all his time doing it. Now he is dead leaving behind a wife and kids.



Interesting post. But when were we told told thats its ok to get it wrong? I had a senior who emphasized FTR (First time right) to a degree of insanity. All working under him quit eventually and some developed irreversible medical condition.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 18 Mar 2014 01:29

In India the culture is (was?) to come to work 10 mins before the boss and leave 10 mins after the boss. This hopefully has changed since I last heard about it. The focus is on face time, not on getting stuff done and doing it right. There are some people here in the US who do the same, but they get weeded out pretty quickly. In some bad environments I have worked at like PeechaKaroCo which was infested with TCS people, the culture was of spying on people and keeping track of entry and exit. The best places I have worked at do not track this, assuming we are professionals and not school kids.

But Indians in general all over the world like to show off about hours in the office. My wife's friends do it too "Oh... you know... Kunal was working all weekend to finish a presentation deck for the CEO... you know... CEO said he cannot go to the meeting without Kunal's deck". You will rarely see any desi tell you he spent the weekend taking his son to the museum or playing soccer with him. This along with smoking that many do along with sitting on fat asses at work with no exercise, leads to death at 50.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby panduranghari » 18 Mar 2014 02:48

KJoishy Saar even hakeems do it. TBH except on-call doctors in any department and Trauma units, no one is actually busy.

In the Good, bad, ugly movie- Tuco is in the cave where his friends Pedro, Chico and Ramon are hiding. He says If you work for a living, why do you kill yourself working?

This was one of the memorable quotes from a memorable movie I could remember reading about people killing themselves by overwork.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Raja Bose » 18 Mar 2014 05:08

KJoishy wrote:Oh... you know... Kunal was working all weekend to finish a presentation deck for the CEO... you know... CEO said he cannot go to the meeting without Kunal's deck".


For a moment I read the bolded word as something else. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 18 Mar 2014 05:51

Raja Bose wrote:
KJoishy wrote:Oh... you know... Kunal was working all weekend to finish a presentation deck for the CEO... you know... CEO said he cannot go to the meeting without Kunal's deck".


For a moment I read the bolded word as something else. :rotfl:


ayyayyo... :eek:
You've crossed into the dark side :(( :((

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Mar 2014 10:32

It is a patent stereotype that people in the US do not put in extra hours and weekends are sacrosanct. Quite a bit of our folks who go there are smitten by the white man's bug and in getting over-MUTU peek spewing this like below,

1. Indians are not time conscious. Americans stick to time.
2. Indians are good at repetitive work.
3. Indians are stingy, play politics and are socially akward.
4. Indians buy only Honda and Toyota.
5. Indians do not call before coming home.
6. Indians are caste and colour conscious.
7. Indians are code coolies.


Apart from that, they also repeat the following white man's lines about other cultures.

1. Russian technology is inferior
2. Japanese learnt technology from America
3. Blacks are all gunmen
4. British civilized the world

Now if you believe all these stereotypes then Son, you need to get your head examined. Feel free to add to the list above.

Lest I forget,

Fischer is the greatest chess player of all time. How could I forget this one in the list above. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vikas » 18 Mar 2014 10:36

Funny thing is that even those who complain about burn out and spending too much time in office are the first ones to complain that you didn't respond back to the email at 12:00 in the night or why are you out of office by 6:30 PM.
I personally hate to take work home nor I like my weekends to be disturbed by useless trainings or preparation of presentations.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vikas » 18 Mar 2014 10:38

Yogi_G wrote:It is a patent stereotype that people in the US do not put in extra hours and weekends are sacrosanct. Quite a bit of our folks who go there are smitten by the white man's bug and in getting over-MUTU peek spewing this like below,

1. Indians are not time conscious. Americans stick to time.
2. Indians are good at repetitive work.
3. Indians are stingy, play politics and are socially akward.
4. Indians buy only Honda and Toyota.
5. Indians do not call before coming home.
6. Indians are caste and colour conscious.
7. Indians are code coolies.


Apart from that, they also repeat the following white man's lines about other cultures.

1. Russian technology is inferior
2. Japanese learnt technology from America
3. Blacks are all gunmen
4. British civilized the world

Now if you believe all these stereotypes then Son, you need to get your head examined. Feel free to add to the list above.

Lest I forget,

Fischer is the greatest chess player of all time. How could I forget this one in the list above. :mrgreen:


That Indians spend lot of time in office chatting
That Indians carry smell of curry and sambhar

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Mar 2014 11:47

I used to work in a major product company on what was the most happening product in the ALM space. Folks at onsite, the goras would work their a$$ off and stay awake till late into night and then would log back in early. Managers at offshore would never allow us to work late and the folks would promptly come in at a time of their choice, put in 8 hours of work and leave accordingly. The onsite folks would be very angry at this and during sprint planning meetings they would try to pile on stories but the folks and managers would have none of it and would only accept for a few. This went on very smoothly and still continues to do so long after I left the organization. I hear that the goras at onsite still work their a$$es off to save their jobs. There was once an occassion where folks were required to come in on a saturday and this became a big issues, WORKING ON A SATURDAY! This one saturday is still spoken about even now.

Now run past me that stereotype again of Indians wanting to walk long times etc etc???????

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 18 Mar 2014 15:16

Yogi_G wrote:The onsite folks would be very angry at this and during sprint planning meetings they would try to pile on stories but the folks and managers would have none of it and would only accept for a few. This went on very smoothly and still continues to do so long after I left the organization.

I don't doubt the story at all, but I seriously doubt how many managers or superior staff would have the balls to inform the Gora that they would NOT work on a week end, even if the Goras plan to work. Perhaps your company may have been an exception :). In my career, so far the only management style I have seen is that "if one Gora plans to work over a week end - it is a crisis situation - and ten Indians should be ready for work"

KJoishy wrote:You will rarely see any desi tell you he spent the weekend taking his son to the museum or playing soccer with him.

It pretty much boils to what I said earlier. That many of these folks (especially in IT) does not have a life outside the office. They may watch a match of cricket, but most of them don't even go for a morning walk ! :). Taking a kid to any place (which does not help him in "education" i.e wrote learning, is a waste of time. Off-course I have seen plenty of exceptions to this. Many people do insist that they spend quality time with their near & dear ones. But 90% of the folks were NOT from IT industry.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Mar 2014 15:57

Sachin ji,

My previous company had directors sitting both in India and in Florida so it was an equal equal partnership and maybe things worked out. Its in the service domain in the customer-vendor relationship where what you say happens on a frequent basis. "Let's do this else he will go to my competitor". I remember once when we finalized on a major JS tool for our calendar requirements in the application. We wanted it customized on an urgent basis and we learnt after the delivery that 2 goras and one Ruskie dude sitting in E.Europe worked over the weekend for our deadline. So this happens across the board. When in a major bank in the US I would see the business partners squeezing the project manager for tight deadlines and many a gora coding away into late nights. I dont think its restricted to SDREs only.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby vishvak » 18 Mar 2014 18:04

"That Indians carry smell of curry and sambhar"

Well now aren't we Short Dark Rice Eating Indians not used to absence of curry and sambhar. It is but natural.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 18 Mar 2014 20:47

viv wrote:nilekani/murty et al did not really innovate; but they did make money. Not sure why that qualifies them to be considered as thought leaders, be CM/PM/President and what-not.

Innovation is not just about comping up with patents; they had an idea which they were able to successfully implement so that credit goes to them . Leave idea/innovation etc etc not being able to innovate is not a sin fck innovation for sake of innovation is not even needed. They were able to execute well Infy today is doing pretty ok if not well that itself is a praiseworthy achievement.

Nilekani's political tenure is only revealing his personal attributes and qualities aside of his contributions to Infy which I am not aware of personally.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yayavar » 18 Mar 2014 21:33

negi: you should be able to decipher the intent of the above comment. But anyway, there were lots doing the same 'innovation', and yes, Infy-men were good businessmen and so are many others too. So the comment is how come that qualifies them for all those other political posts? Ratan Tata, Premji, Ambanis and a host of others have also made money - and innovations without patents - so why not them?

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Mar 2014 22:19

If building a global delivery model and ramping up in scales as Indian IT companies were an easy thing to do then the Eastern Europeans would have been at the top of the IT pecking order. They are not!

The global delivery model of Indian IT companies is an amazing product of globalization thought up by Indian minds! It is no trivial thing and is innovation at its best.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 18 Mar 2014 22:33

India had lots and lots of inexpensive people, that's about it. That is the sole reason why India got the business and not Europe. And we knew better English, did not have many demands, would work "24/7" etc etc.
This is not a sustainable for the long term and you see this model crumbling down slowly with SE Asia picking up. Let's not kid ourselves, we did not make this happen, we just happened to be at the right place.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Suraj » 19 Mar 2014 04:55

There's a lot of self goal scoring here. There are plenty of ways the Indian IT industry ethos can improve, but an industry doesn't go from a ~$1 billion one to a ~$100 billion 2 decades without a significant number of people doing the right thing at the right time for a sustained period of time.

Indian economic history is rife with having been at the right place at the right time and done nothing with it. The entire contract manufacturing / FDI industry passed us by in the 1960s to 1980s as a result. A lot of it continues to pass us by today, despite still being a competitive option on paper, because of our lack of initiative at grabbing the opportunities.

That was the line of work we were supposed to be good at - lower capital demand, medium/high labour input and repetitive work - like making garments, footwear, craftworks and low end manufacturing. Missing that boat - for those between 20s and 30s - cost your parents their economic prosperity. For those older than that, you know that missing that boat cost you your own economic prosperity, unless you made it out of India or were one of the lucky few to live relatively comfortably.

After missing everything we were supposed to have grabbed, we instead dominated an industry we weren't supposed to have a chance at - high capital, infrastructure and energy input, high labor education standards (relative to the average educational standard of the population), requiring deep integration into the global economic backend at a time when we were essentially just stepping out after being completely outside that loop as a closed economy.

To get into and dominate this industry despite all that is quite frankly incredible. Of all industries we could have gotten into and generated wealth using, the IT industry is the most incongruous one. One can argue about some snake oil about how 'Indians are good programmers and know English' etc, but that is just glib talk that does not address larger economic fundamentals. The economic entry barriers into this industry were very high, compared to the low/mid end of the economy (which China dominated), combined with the fact that our history of grabbing opportunities when they came, was non-existent at that time.

The work culture may need a lot of improvement, and innovative packaged product delivery, venture capital availability and various other things may remain behind the best options elsewhere. But the fact is this industry has generated extraordinary amounts of wealth, not just directly, but through the multiplier effect of increasing employment elsewhere. If you told someone in 1994 that in 20 years these 'computer-wale' would be generating a $100 billion/year and dominating their industry, you'd be told to get rid of whatever you were smoking.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Mar 2014 10:11

There are plenty of ways the Indian IT industry ethos can improve, but an industry doesn't go from a ~$1 billion one to a ~$100 billion 2 decades without a significant number of people doing the right thing at the right time for a sustained period of time.


+72

Indians are just as fallible as everyone else and will keep on improving.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 02 Apr 2014 12:58

Cleared a few rounds of technical grilling from a "product" company here. Now they want me to hand over my original education ceritificates once I accept their offer and collect it when I join :rotfl:. The reason they say for this is that they operate in a no-bench model and want to "ensure" the resource joins the organization. Funny thing is they are quite a well known company specializing in some specific domains. The HR person also boldly told me that many "directors" at "Executive" level have handed over their educational certificates and received an "acknowledgment" letter on doing so and collected the certificates upon joining.

I need some help in coming up with some choicest of "parliamentary" words in getting it across to them that they cant do this this in the 21st century in my "offer rejection" letter.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SanjayC » 02 Apr 2014 13:14

Suraj wrote:If you told someone in 1994 that in 20 years these 'computer-wale' would be generating a $100 billion/year and dominating their industry, you'd be told to get rid of whatever you were smoking.


In 1996, I was working for a magazine and interviewed Devang Mehta, the president of NASSCOM (who died later due to a heart attack in Australia because of his grueling schedule). He used to tell me the kind of lobbying he used to do with the Government and how the babus used to laugh on his face. One top bureaucrat told him that Mehta was lobbying for extra privileges for an industry whose turn-over was then equal to the plastic bucket manufacturing industry of Faridabad!!

In 1998, Mehta's NASSCOM gave a software export estimate of $50 billion by 2008 (I still remember this figure) and it caused much mirth in Government circles.

Added later:

I am proud of one story I did in 1996 about how software companies in Noida were then mandated to get air and water pollution certificate from the Government, like any other manufacturing factory. This created great embarrassment to NASSCOM as the lobbying body. But to the credit of Devang Mehta, he got software companies exempted from this regulation in 10 days after the story got published, by lobbying with the babus.
Last edited by SanjayC on 02 Apr 2014 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 02 Apr 2014 20:49

Marten wrote:FC Kohli and Dr Kanodia have been forgotten by the same industry that they built. All of these folks, including NRN and Premji are followers who did well using the same model.


Martenullah, here's a true story.

Way back in the 70s, my dad worked at this top chip design company in the US. He had plans to R2I around mid 70s. FC Kohli somehow heard about him and he was visiting the US for recruitiment, so he wanted to meet my dad. My dad wanted to start his own company in desh, so he declined, but Mr Kohli insisted and so they met at the Memphis airport on Aug 16, 1977. The date is significant because Elvis Presley died on that date in that same city of Memphis as the conversation was on. After the interview, Mr Kohli wanted my dad to join him at TCS. :D . My dad declined because of entrepreneurship plans. We all moved to Desh. My dad is from Mumbai, so when he was visiting his family, he paid a visit to Mr Kohli who renewed his offer which my dad did not take.

Who knows, if my dad had joined a fledgling TCS, he may have become CEO by now. :)
And I would not be trashing TCS at every available opportunity. :)

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby girish.r » 02 Apr 2014 21:02

Yogi_G wrote:Cleared a few rounds of technical grilling from a "product" company here. Now they want me to hand over my original education ceritificates once I accept their offer and collect it when I join :rotfl:. The reason they say for this is that they operate in a no-bench model and want to "ensure" the resource joins the organization. Funny thing is they are quite a well known company specializing in some specific domains. The HR person also boldly told me that many "directors" at "Executive" level have handed over their educational certificates and received an "acknowledgment" letter on doing so and collected the certificates upon joining.

I need some help in coming up with some choicest of "parliamentary" words in getting it across to them that they cant do this this in the 21st century in my "offer rejection" letter.


Interestingly, i was going through a similar situation. My inputs (based on some website i visited sometime ago):

1 Legally there is nothing to stop employer from asking these documents

2 I think the risk for the employee is too high to get his documents back is non existent

3 Employee needs to decide if he is desperate enough to do this

4 few companies have the system and control to prevent misuse of such documents. Companies have been lucky so far

No reason is justified for holding an employee on tight leash (pardon my language). Not sure if you are really keen to indulge yourself into this scenario, but if its not hurting now, dont do it.

Good Luck for your dream job :)

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8216
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Gus » 02 Apr 2014 21:18

turn it back on them and ask for a request letter on company letter stating the company policy of asking for and retaining your original certificates, along with policies of storage and liabilities in case of loss or damage, and finally the return policy on these certificates - and that it has to bear company seal and sign from appropriate authority.

achit
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 14 Feb 2005 20:07
Location: USA

Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby achit » 03 Apr 2014 04:10

SRoy wrote:.
.
.

The negatives.
1. Architects have a minimal role. Unless there is some oversight mechanism, the end result will be an unmaintainable mess.


There is not much experience with Agile in my organization. It is learn as you go kind of situation.
I am currently working as an architect on a scrum team. I agree 'Architects' have minimal role in day to day development ( and position may not be required for all projects).
For larger and complex efforts 'architect' is a must for satisfying 'non-functional'/qualities of system (scalability, maintainability etc.).
In addition to 'product owner' stories, we have technical stories (some call in architecture runway) that I own. It is working well for now but we will know if few months :).

Agile Architecture Emerges -- or Does It?


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