Indian IT Industry

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2015 00:54

This is all great and nice to know, but can someone explain the pisskology of people who derided the alleged practices of the socialist republics in the past, now want to wholeheartedly embrace the same for this group of relatively highly paid elites in the Indian context. Even CEOs are not left out for blame.

Man hypocrisy has limits...some of us have long memories.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 05 Jan 2015 02:29

Bade wrote:This is all great and nice to know, but can someone explain the pisskology of people who derided the alleged practices of the socialist republics in the past, now want to wholeheartedly embrace the same for this group of relatively highly paid elites in the Indian context. Even CEOs are not left out for blame. Man hypocrisy has limits...some of us have long memories.

It's simple.
Capitalism is fun only when you are the one making money and taking away other people's lunch. That's when it is called "competition.
When someone else does the same, capitalism is not fun any longer

and you want socialism and you berate the people who deny you your lunch and hate the people who are now stealing it.

More seriously, pure capitalism or pure socialism both don't work very well. There has to be a blend. This exact blend is hard to figure out. CEOs making out with millions in countries like USA, well, not many deserve that kind of cash. Hard to justify CEOs laying off 1000s of people citing cost cutting and then the board rewarding the same fellow with millions. What about the need to cut costs hain jee?? Boards and CEOs in US companies are in cahoots. You scratch my back and I scratch yours. It's one big club populated mostly with white boys with some women and minorities sprinkled for representation. Very hard to get in, but once in, life is good.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 05 Jan 2015 04:40

If the companies have lots and lots of folks doing maintenance of specific modules - it seems like a description of a factory. So unions seem like a logical step though from income and outlook perspective the mindset might be bourgeois

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2015 04:48

The companies have realized that many things can be commoditized even further. Maybe the next step is to distribute it to non-engg folks for the type of work done at places like TCS in these offshore contracts. The engg folks are feeling the pinch and want some preemptive action, hence all this unionizing talks. Welcome to capitalism during bad times for some but still good for others.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Jan 2015 07:37

Bade wrote:The companies have realized that many things can be commoditized even further. Maybe the next step is to distribute it to non-engg folks for the type of work done at places like TCS in these offshore contracts. The engg folks are feeling the pinch and want some preemptive action, hence all this unionizing talks. Welcome to capitalism during bad times for some but still good for others.

What do you mean by non engineering? People who did not do a BE or BTech? If so, companies already hire a significant number of non engineering folks. I think TCS specifically hire many science or math graduates because they work for lesser pay and do not job hop. There were some articles a few years back on this issue.

The fact is IT companies are still increasing their strength which means that the party may not be over yet.

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 05 Jan 2015 07:45

For most of the jobs done in the ASM space an engg degree of any sort is not a pre req. Most of the BCom or BSc folks know basic programming these days and these large companies especially TCS and Infy have robust training to train these folks on company specific skills. After 6 months training these folks are ready for the market or so they claim. The blended onshore offshore rate has considerably gone down in maintenance space and the clients these days require you to reduce support costs if it is a multi year contract. Either the cost can be reduced by reducing the rates or reducing head count and playing around onsite/offshore numbers. The industry has "innovated" on the rates and services that literally nothing differentiates the top 6 vendors who have ops in India. The AD and consulting space is where the next set of differentiation is and there are some big changes occurring in these areas as well.

There is no point in showing fingers at TCS, if you do not have marketable skills for the given price range then you are redundant. It happened in the US and it is happening now in India. That's how knowledge based economy works. The problem for an employee at these MNC's is as you spend some time in the company, as a natural progression slowly your tech skills go away and you get in to resource management. People who does that do not have a career outside of that company. A Java architect can find a job outside but not a program/project manager. This will be a wake up call/learning cycle for middle managers, either you learn marketable skills or you die. Getting in to a MNC does not mean you have a cushy job your entire life. The whole noise is because that dream came crashing down because never in their wildest dreams they thought TCS will let them go end masse.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2015 07:47

The party is clearly not over yet. If the over hyped BE is replaced by BSc/BCom ones they see significant savings perhaps. So this is going to shift recruiting away from tier-1 cities. All big names are increasing their floor space in smaller cities. It just that the old crop are losing their bread and butter.

Wasn't it Wipro which started this trend, but others are also seeing the benefits.

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 05 Jan 2015 07:51

With 400+ colleges in TN and the same number in AP and KA I think finding a non BE resource with some comm skills will be a challenge for these companies.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jan 2015 07:57

A fact: Wipro alone has 15-20,000 science grads working with them while pursuing BITS 4yr MS program. Every other big company has such programs.

I hope companies offer similar programs in other science/engg fields. That way youth can get jobs after ITI, Polytechnic, 12th grade etc and become better engineers in respective fields.

Perhaps we should close all engg colleges that aren't associated with an industry/company.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 05 Jan 2015 08:18

Bade Sir
As others have said, the move to tier -2 cities, moving from BE to BSC has been there since mid 2000s in the Indian IT services industry. During my stint in TCS, I was involved in the recruitment of people from BSCs from tier -2 colleges and this drive was started for the exact reasons as you mention. Had a few in my team as well. Due to the demand in Bangalore, Kerala and Chennai, AmmaNadu, engineering colleges have proliferated and it is much easier to find BE people than BSC as mentioned by Javee sir. The BE in this area is very much institutionalized learn by rote and there is hardly any learning that you get in BSC. So there is no quality of grads as well.

The current issue is rightly explained by both Javee and the article posted by Anand K. The Indian IT services model has created many IT service delivery managers who become redundant once they are outside of their current company as you don't get to be hands on either on technology or in a domain specific role after 3-8 years. This bolt in the blue is a good lesson for people in the beginning of their career in IT services but tough for middle level pure IT services managers who are left high and dry now as they have nowhere to go. Complaining to PMO or labor commissioner is not going to help either. My very close relative put her papers as she was in the firing line but thankfully she remained a techie and should be able to find a decent job.

Saravana
The mass recruitment at entry level is still on. TCS per press release is planning to hire 25k freshes over the next two quarters. The issue is that they will become redundant once they become senior (8 years or so ) as there won't be many management roles for them to move into and the become a IT services generalists. The question is whether even the 8 years is going to come down drastically.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Jan 2015 10:28

KJo wrote:More seriously, pure capitalism or pure socialism both don't work very well.

+1. Infact even the trade unions were criticised heavily mainly because of the arm twisting tactics they practised as part of the "socialism/communism". I remember reading about the Madhura Coats lock out at Koratty, Thrissur in 1980s. This factory paid decent salary to the workers out there (far high than what they would have got else where). Socialism at its best, and I agree. The first strike happened there because of increasing the food price a bit higher in their already subsidised canteen. It was not because of laying-off people. The management and the union could never get into an agreement after that and the factory finally was locked out. Then every body lost their jobs, and few landed themselves in front of trains going through the adjacent railway track

. Even today this is used as an example on how "militant trade unionism" can destory things. Perhaps US model "capitalism" and commie-heaven West Bengal & Kerala model of "socialism" don't work well? A middle path is required?

.

yayavar wrote:If the companies have lots and lots of folks doing maintenance of specific modules - it seems like a description of a factory.

I remember a friend of mine introducing a business model, which he called "factory model". The way he explained it, it was more like the scene from Charlie Chaplin's "Modern times". A conveyor belt bringing in the work piece, and one chap doing exactly the same step (like screwing a bolt) and sending the piece further down the line

. And when I did meet a young chap whose mandate was to verify (and restart) FTP file movements in his shift, I understood it even better.

Bade wrote:The companies have realized that many things can be commoditized even further. Maybe the next step is to distribute it to non-engg folks for the type of work done at places like TCS in these offshore contracts.

I myself am a non-engineering chap (a B.A degree holder), who just picked up computer programming as a hobby when in school. And then kind of drifted into IT industry - with better pay being a good reason as well

. The work done in all the IT companies I have worked with, can be done by any trained (and motivated) individual. Good B.A, B.Sc, B.Com chap with liking to computer programming and good communication skill can get the work done. There would be exceptions where sound knowledge in electronics, mechanical+electronics is required and where only B.Tech folks can survive (and god knows.. Diploma holders may also do well here).

All the Major-Colonel-Brigadiers of IT industry have started thinking in these lines at least 3-4 years back. Vegetable Oil.Co had a tie up with BITS Pilani, where they recruit B.Sc folks as apprentices. After four years, they get an MS from BITS Pilani. AFAIK, that scheme is now stopped. Many other companies now actively recruit from Tier-2 cities. Sooner or later they may also start looking for non-Engineering graduates.

Wasn't it Wipro which started this trend, but others are also seeing the benefits.

From what I heard from a few chaps inside, Vegetable Oil.Co is also going to focus more on their Tier II cities based IT parks. They clearly feel costs for operating projects from such centers would lower than say from Bangalore or even Pune.

Sridhar K wrote:The Indian IT services model has created many IT service delivery managers who become redundant once they are outside of their current company as you don't get to be hands on either on technology or in a domain specific role after 3-8 years.

Exactly. I think Singha had shared a link from ToI-let which talks about a company now giving a courses which helps such managers move to different roles - off course with a hefty fee to be paid. Resource Management (a friend of mine doing the same compared it as another form "pimping"

), etc. would become obsolete as many companies are finding ways to automate the whole process.

Complaining to PMO or labor commissioner is not going to help either.

Complaining may not help at all. But perhaps this would clearly list out the employment rules and regulations under which IT companies operate. If the existing laws permit laying-off, then that is it. But what are the ways and means to go about it. If I get it right the new GoI had amended a few labour laws which benefits Small Scale Industries. In similar lines, what are the rules, benefits given to IT companies? Is there a way the severance packages are calculated? Are the employees treated (in official records) as contractors or as full-time employees etc. etc. For quite some time IT folks were not really bothered with all this. Money was there aplenty, their life styles were different and perhaps age was also in their favour.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 05 Jan 2015 22:01

Anand K wrote:The inflexion point for Indian IT industry is here

Interesting comments too... like this one:

This Time & Materials business carried the seed of its own destruction. But it has taken a while to happen. An ex-boss of mine pointed out 5-6 yrs back that for testing projects done by GE partner companies in India, the rate was same as for folks who flip burgers in high wages states in the US like MA, CA etc. The service cos in India have literally destroyed a good white collar profession. If they had at least ended this IT boom on a high note – being known for something it would have been OK. But everyone outside of the stupid and clueless trade press knows how horrible Indian IT service cos are in general with few notable exceptions.

The big myth that got busted along the way was “We will first do services, then transition to products” – We are still waiting. The most successful Indian product companies have been for the most part startups from the beginning though they might have done some consulting on the side to sustain themselves. The industry leaves behind a horrible legacy – greedy landlords who are still unaware that the boom is over, spoilt middle class brats suffering from a severe sense of entitlement but with no matching skills, tasteless builders and their mega projects, myths about programming and mathematical skills, myths about Indians beating the Americans at their own game – the list is endless. Perhaps the worst legacy is the same service industry guys now pretending to be startuppers – some are even VCs.

Since you say that coolies are obliterated by technology consider construction workers in India – they are working like their predecessors did decades back. It is still a labour intensive industry. Whereas in the US you sometimes see a walmart under construction in the morning and by evening it is either complete or nearly so. But with software competition and true globalization seem to be much more true than with say the construction industry. It is very difficult to escape the effects of technology in the software industry.

Wow

This comment encapsulates all that I have been talking about in my previous posts on this thread.

What has happened now is that the Indian IT industry has done what the Chinese manufacturing industry has done. Commoditized a product/service, driven down prices, and made greedy US CEOs believe that they are getting something for nothing and flooded the market with cheap goods. What they are losing is quality. In the 70s, American products were known for their quality. Now US makes nothing, and everything available is cheap Chinese junk. It's similar in software. China does dumping in manufacturing, India does it in software (for most part)

Another thing is that India thinks that they can turn everyone into software engineers and let them have a high paying career forever. This is just not possible, anywhere in the world. I remember how the go-go 00's were. In trains, we had "IT cars" for "techies" to do their work. I guess the cars had work areas or something. IT this, IT that. My sasoorji would call me and gloat about how each street in his neighborhood in Bangalore had at least 3-4 IT companies. Wow. But none of this is sustainable. And you cannot take someone without the aptitude and make him a good software person. In India it worked for a while because the jobs were there, money was there. Now things aren't that easy, so what becomes of the millions who went into this field?
This isn't an easy situation. A shake out will happen, just like what happened in the US in 2001.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jan 2015 22:20

It is mostly simple really…

Capitalism is the province of the private business sector. Let greed/hire/fire/ruthless competition/bending rules/etc reign supreme.
Socialism is the province of government. Government regulates the worst instincts of greed and provides a safety net for those who get crushed and there will always be some who get run over. Courts/Environment/Water/Education/Safety Net/etc

It is when government gets into capitalism or business gets into socialism that things go wrong.

Definitely GOI should step in to offer a re-training package of some kind. We can't send these folks home to stew in their juices, bad things come of this. For many years these folks have been paying heavy taxes and floating the Indian economy, they should not be abandoned now. This is when government is actually required, to pick up the pieces and clean up the mess.... ...I'm not holding my breath, GOI did squat for the 25,000 affected by NOKIA... ..the only reason nothing happened is because it was in Chennai where people are willing to swallow the pain and move on. Any other state there would have been an explosion....

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 05 Jan 2015 22:21

KJo wrote:[

Another thing is that India thinks that they can turn everyone into software engineers and let them have a high paying career forever

It may not have turned everyone into software engineer but it figured out a way to churn out industrial grade software, using folks with non CS background. That in itself is a good achievement. Maybe the objective of those companies wasn't to make every employee passionate about software engineering. It uses clever processes which manufactured code which worked.
Folks who have worked for service companies can correct me here. Has any of the projects undertaken by these top 5 companies has ever been a failure or even dragged way beyond deadlines and failed to address the scope. If they were too many, these guys would have been out of business long time back. So maybe the software which were produced doesn't always require hardcore programmers? How many of these software use something beyond an array?
Not all software are complex and if even it was these guys were able to break into bite sized segments which could be coded by a new comer. If put less value on an experienced programmer and that is the flaw for the companies as well as programmers who wanted to stick to technical side. If only they had real R&D, these guy would have found an outlet to express themselves. Too much focus on billing alone, led to a lack of innovation in these places. IMHO.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 05 Jan 2015 22:30

saravana wrote: It may not have turned everyone into software engineer but it figured out a way to churn out industrial grade software, using folks with non CS background. That in itself is a good achievement. Maybe the objective of those companies wasn't to make every employee passionate about software engineering. It uses clever processes which manufactured code which worked.
Folks who have worked for service companies can correct me here. Has any of the projects undertaken by these top 5 companies has ever been a failure or even dragged way beyond deadlines and failed to address the scope. If they were too many, these guys would have been out of business long time back. So maybe the software which were produced doesn't always require hardcore programmers? How many of these software use something beyond an array?
Not all software are complex and if even it was these guys were able to break into bite sized segments which could be coded by a new comer. If put less value on an experienced programmer and that is the flaw for the companies as well as programmers who wanted to stick to technical side. If only they had real R&D, these guy would have found an outlet to express themselves. Too much focus on billing alone, led to a lack of innovation in these places. IMHO.

+ Agree 400%.

This discussion reminds me of the textile manufacturing industry in the 80s and 90s. As wages increased rapidly in latin America and asia, many in the west though the textile manufacturing would return. 30 yrs on, there is still no sign of it ever coming back to US unless someone in states is willing to work 18 hrs a day for $2 in some sweatshop.

Many of you are more closer to the ground than i am. But is it really as bad it is being said here ? What number of people are currently employed directly in IT and ITES in India ? How many of those work for services companies vs those working directly for the subsidiary of a foreign company that has an India location ? I find it hard to believe that an industry which generates direct revenue of over $110 billion USD/yr is so incompetent. Isn't a lot of development and research also outsourced to India ? If it was just bare basic maintenance , i am sure even Pakistan would have exponentially cranked up its IT services industry. Then there is the case of Philippines which started as a IT services based in late 80s and early 90s, it has a huge English speaking population, stable wages, political stability and good infrastructure and yet it has failed to make a dent on Indian IT industry. I remember BPOs moving to Philippines from India in the mid-2000s and 10 yrs on, and most people in the industry thought that was the end of BPOs in India . Yet 10 yrs on, ITES/BPO continues to remain strong as ever , just that they no longer seek a BE graduate to do tier 1 tech support, but hire college kids .

As for the "spoiled middle-class", when is aspiration a bad thing ? Or is aspiration of shelter and mobility only for those in the west ? Despite the "spoiled middle-class", we have the second highest domestic savings rate in the world and a strict lending standards that keeps banks solvent.
Certainly the wage inflation is high in India, but we need to consider the massive devaluation of rupee and the real inflation ( not GoI published core inflation ) that exists . Inflation and devaluation adjusted, the wage increase is on par with any other country in an industry with 10% growth yoy. The wages will adjust as per demand and supply like it always does.

As nations move from one stage of development to another, there will always be resource shift. Those who cannot be employed in IT will move to other sectors. Back in the 70s, nobody thought a bunch of Chinamen and Indians in the little city of Singapore could ever contribute anything worthy. Today, it is a country known for one of the highest standards of living in the world, and center of excellence in everything from banking to semiconductors. It is inevitable that IT in India will go through ups and downs, but i don't see it going away anywhere anytime soon despite some periodic readjustments.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jan 2015 22:42

While discussing this we should not be attacking TCS or any other top brass for their business plans IMHO. If they fail, they will pay for it with their jobs and maybe their company. This is not to say they may not be the worst kind of human being out there but that is a complete other argument.

TCS is well within its rights to fire high expense employees to hire lower expense employees. This is the real world.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 05 Jan 2015 22:56

Theo_Fidel wrote:While discussing this we should not be attacking TCS or any other top brass for their business plans IMHO. If they fail, they will pay for it with their jobs and maybe their company. This is not to say they may not be the worst kind of human being out there but that is a complete other argument.

TCS is well within its rights to fire high expense employees to hire lower expense employees. This is the real world.

I agree with what you say.
I am not sure that the top brass will pay necessarily because these guys take care of each other at the top. Even if they get fired, they will have a juicy severance and another buddy will hire them.

In a capitalist setup, a company can layoff people as per business conditions. And an employee can leave and go somewhere else for more money. I think the problem in India right now is the mindset. People want to enjoy the fruits of capitalism but not the downsides of it, and want to run to socialism when that happens. That cannot work. Modi cannot call up TCS and order the CEO to hire everyone back. That will amount to the Govt telling industry how to run their firms and Modi will not do that.

On the other hand, the hire and fire mindset in US companies is brutal and heartless. A company can hire someone onto a full time job for a project but secretly plan to lay him off in 3 months after a project is over. This causes the employee a lot of difficulty and families are at stake and companies should not be allowed to do this. The only way I think can think of to prevent this bait and switch is to put companies on the hook for a severance settlement if this happens.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2015 23:08

^no way kJo-Ji, your wishes will be granted! by the higher order of bijnej elites and echelons of massan clubs. you are challenging the yayless, hairbraids, and mellons for rearchitecting & marketecting their existing grass roots to your theories and thoughts. you are way too socialistic for them.

the blue is a different color with a standardized pay packet and social economic setup. aah! who said they dont have social caste-class sections. all fooled under one roof! of kopitolijm. but then, you are a better slave than in desh, just because of living stds onlee. so, that ij all you get.

this is akin to segregation and caste fights in desh! they want quota, here they want no fire!

chilarai · Post by **chilarai** » 05 Jan 2015 23:34

On the other hand, the hire and fire mindset in US companies is brutal and heartless. A company can hire someone onto a full time job for a project but secretly plan to lay him off in 3 months after a project is over. This causes the employee a lot of difficulty and families are at stake and companies should not be allowed to do this. The only way I think can think of to prevent this bait and switch is to put companies on the hook for a severance settlement if this happens.

In Netherlands, companies can give an employee a temporary contract only for 2 times consequtively. After that a permanent contract is must and permanent employees when fired are paid higher severance ( 3 months salary or so in average i think ) . Not ideal but can control the hire and fire situation.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2015 23:40

All these solutions offered for reduced hire and fire works for a society with a small stable population. India has many more eligible unemployed. What about them ? Only capitalism can provide the way to distribute wealth for large populations. Fire the old and hire young is the perfect "socialist" solution for the Indian case.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jan 2015 00:07

Logans Run Carousal….

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jan 2015 00:18

had to search for what it meant. The old can go plant fruit bearing trees along highways that the next generation will benefit from or retire early and seek moksha...win win for all. In the end there is only so much space for all, people should have thought about the consequences of high rate of breeding.

The whole IT industry employs just ~ order of a few million in India a small drop still.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 06 Jan 2015 00:29

Bade wrote:All these solutions offered for reduced hire and fire works for a society with a small stable population. India has many more eligible unemployed. What about them ? Only capitalism can provide the way to distribute wealth for large populations. Fire the old and hire young is the perfect "socialist" solution for the Indian case.

I don't think there is any perfect solution that fits all needs.
However I think we can do what is best possible so that least people are affected.
"Hire the young and fire the old" works from the business perspective. What about from the other side? How will the country deal with the millions of unemployed with families? Kids are affected and they will turn to crime.
A small dose of socialistic protection is needed I think. Social Security here is a good idea, but in India it will be misused more than here.
The whole problem is that the Indian IT economy is based on "we are cheap, hire us!". This is not good for long term.

There are several reasons why many companies offshore to India. "Everyone else is doing so, we should too" is one. India has first mover advantage and has large companies like INFY and TCS which are known to everyone in the tech industry. Indian companies are also known to be more responsive than European ones. I work with Belarus and are shifting QA to Bangalore. I know I can make a call, talk to the guy in Kannada and it will get done. The Belarus people will argue.

In any case, there is no other option but churn. US faced this, and so will India. Unfortunately this is part of the game.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jan 2015 03:11

"Logan's run" was quite an influential book followed by the movie which came out during 1970s. I have seen the movie (and have the book on my shelf not read) depicts forced euthanasia. Voluntary euthanasia might work where everything else fails.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jan 2015 03:15

KJo wrote: Modi cannot call up TCS and order the CEO to hire everyone back. That will amount to the Govt telling industry how to run their firms and Modi will not do that.

Even if the govt. does tell and the company does not follow what then? What options are open to the govt.?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Jan 2015 03:31

matrimc wrote:"Logan's run" was quite an influential book followed by the movie which came out during 1970s. The movie depeicts forced euthanasia where as voluntary euthanasia might work where everything else fails.

Vaanprastha or retirement - but one needs to be contented with the expected simpler living

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 06 Jan 2015 03:59

For those of you who think Indian cos are bad, take a look at the way SAP was implimented. Look at the number of software that failed in the west.
TCS and the likes keep on increasing revenue, headcount and profits. Margins are taking a hit, but that is just natural in a Industry where the margins have been up to 35% Gross. In the west it is typically arround 5-9%.

For many companies outsourcing is the first step towards moving administrative and it operations abroad.

What scares the shit out of me is what will we do here in the west? manufacturing is gone, IT and admin work is going. what will be left??
We used to laugh at a dude who did not get into Uni and ended up working in a Pizza place. You know what, after 20 years of working life, we already feel the preshure from the younger ones. The Pizza dude now own some 5-6 Pizza shops and earns a hell of a lot more then we do.

We got parties, got to travel, got to work in posh offices, we were made to feel important. But in actual effect we are just usefull idiots. At the age of 45 when we have given our best years, they are already planning to get rid of us.

Basically stay away from large corporates.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Jan 2015 04:35

nobody is indispensable. that is the cold hard truth folks in IT need to understand.

1. keep yourself sharp and current, this might help you extend your stay in job or switch when you can't stay anymore.

2. save when you can and live within means, this is your net to catch you if you fall

3. family is everything. career is secondary. remember that when spending extended hours on work.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2015 05:01

yes.. but on the 2, if you have a spendthrift shq, you are back to year 1 of earning.

i have bumped up retirement kitty.. but heck, the stock market will dive you there too.

it is all kopitalistic suckers all the way to death!

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 06 Jan 2015 05:33

Gus wrote:nobody is indispensable. that is the cold hard truth folks in IT need to understand.

1. keep yourself sharp and current, this might help you extend your stay in job or switch when you can't stay anymore.

2. save when you can and live within means, this is your net to catch you if you fall

3. family is everything. career is secondary. remember that when spending extended hours on work.

Satya vachan shreeman!!

No 2 is something that a lot of ITvity nanhas in India have done poorly. Which is surprising since their parents were typical penny pinching SDREs. Many bought lavish homes, cars and other electronic toys without thinking about the future and what if tomorrow is not like today. People forgot the virtues of humility and thought that they were taking over the world. My ex-classmate would send me articles and post on FB how US was going down and India was going up. It is better to be careful before airing such notions.

When Kunal was doing management consulting and traveling all the time, he would show off in front of the ladies about how traveling was part of the deal and how career was No 1 etc. All the wimmens were impressed and he appeared like a hot-shot go-getter. Even Mrs KJo asked me why I was averse to everyday travel (in those days Kunal was Cool-nal). Now the same Kunal laments to me that he missed the initial growth years of his kids. He shifted to a non-traveling job a few years ago, but what is gone is gone. So give family it's rightful place and spend time with wife and kids. Many people these days neglect spending time with the spouse especially in initial years and end up divorcing because the spouse finds companionship in some workplace herrow. It happened to someone Mrs KJo knows very closely in BLR. She was traveling all the time in her HR job for an MNC and her parents would show off. I wondered how the F did husband and wife connect? Sure enough, an FB post from her with her new husband.

Looks like she met him somewhere, dumped her first, and got on to her second. She has a kid also.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2015 06:19

Bade wrote: had to search for what it meant. The old can go plant fruit bearing trees along highways that the next generation will benefit from or retire early and seek moksha...win win for all. In the end there is only so much space for all, people should have thought about the consequences of high rate of breeding.

The whole IT industry employs just ~ order of a few million in India a small drop still.

Don't know about others, but that's my goal. Thought would reach that stage by end of 2015. But need to work a couple more years for my charity project.

Will retire when I turn 45. Kids done with college and should be on their own.

If SHQ agrees, two jobs are made available to next gen

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jan 2015 09:59

Theo_Fidel wrote: Government regulates the worst instincts of greed and provides a safety net for those who get crushed and there will always be some who get run over. Courts/Environment/Water/Education/Safety Net/etc.

+1. So as I have been repeating here the government should first clarify on what conditions in which IT companies operate in India. As some one already said, Modi (or GoI) cannot dictate terms to private companies as to how they should run the business. But if it is violating any laws, certainly the government should pitch in.

KJo wrote:The only way I think can think of to prevent this bait and switch is to put companies on the hook for a severance settlement if this happens.

+1. Yes, even GoI had earlier schemes like Voluntary Retirement Scheme (VRS). This again was used to quickly fire older employee and give job opporutunities for younger employees. Why many of the oldies still tried to hang on is again of an assured pay and perhaps a decent pension. VRS ensured that they would not lose out much if they retire a few years earlier. So it was a win-win situation for both, oldies and the young.

matrimc wrote:Even if the govt. does tell and the company does not follow what then? What options are open to the govt.?

I don't think GoI is in such a bad shape that the IT big-wigs can even bully them down. The laws are pretty vague, and certain relaxations had been given to IT companies in order to help them establish here. States like Karnataka for example have been giving tax exemption for quite some time. State specific labour laws were changed in order to enable women employees to be employed in night shifts etc. So clear spelling out of the labour laws regarding IT companies and the monitoring their implementation is required. There are enough and more options for any government to harass a company and make them run for cover. But right now for IT Industry is still a cash cow. GoI (and state governments) would only perhaps take a call after considering the benefits IT industry brings in, vis-a-vis the social problems which may be caused to due large scale firing.

Rishirishi wrote:You know what, after 20 years of working life, we already feel the preshure from the younger ones. The Pizza dude now own some 5-6 Pizza shops and earns a hell of a lot more then we do.

In my friend's circle, most of the folks are non-IT folks. Many of them have landed up in state government jobs, or run small business establishments. If I get into that typical IT Techie mode and ask them about CTC, Perks etc they would not come to close. But they have job security, and can be assured of what ever little they get. And plus, these folks have such a good network that many of the tough tasks for techies (like running around government offices) is child's play for them. To be frank, it is this very friend's circle which taught me not to get too high on the IT mode of life and have a more closer idea on how the society works.

Gus wrote:
2. save when you can and live within means, this is your net to catch you if you fall

On point #2, I had a colleague who used to boast that her one's month's salary pretty much goes as the payment of the previous month's credit card bill. But we must also note that in a few situations an entire area/place/city becomes expensive thanks to IT industry etc. Take for example Bangalore, pretty much every thing is highly priced. So many of the people would have to shell out money, even if they don't want to. But yet there are people who kind of plan it well, and have parallel investments done in other parts of the country.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jan 2015 20:06

ChandraV wrote:So, the kid takes a loan to purchase a flat for Rs. 65 lakh.

Hm! Something does not compute here....

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 06 Jan 2015 20:34

^^actually its beyond living one's own means. You are betting on your future income. When has 12-13 lakhs to invest they should invest. Not go into deficit. If invested properly, you can generate sufficient returns to offset rent. Even if one buys a home for 65 lakhs, assuming 50 lakhs is loan amount at 10% annual interest it will take 3 years totake the posession of the house by that time you would have paid 15 lakhs interest (3years x 10% x 50 lakhs) even the loan is for 10 yrs, you would have paid 1.3 crores for the house. That is when the house will become yours. Till then the house is the property of the Banker who financed you. There is no guarantee that you will live for the next 10 years. So you have to pay 20,000/- per month for your insurance. For Rs 20,000/- per month you can live in a fully fully furnished house in L&T Eden park.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 06 Jan 2015 21:22

Looks like folks these days have interesting notions of "living within one's means"

That means making sacrifices, not taking too much debt, not buying the latest gizmo that chacha or FruitCo puts out but buying a previous version for cheap. Not comparing oneself to Kumar who drives a Merc and wondering "why don't I get one? I deserve it! Don't I work hard, hain jee??" instead, see if one can truly afford it.

But this is understandable. The last 15 years of prosperity has made people believe that that is the normal. No one knows of a time when even for jobs at INFY, you had to do puzzles and take quizzes and do group discussion.

Of course that was before INFY became Walmart.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jan 2015 21:40

ChandraV wrote:Everyone needs a home. A solid roof above one's head. If you keep saving money in the bank, you will never be able to match the constant rise in Real Estate prices, you will play catch-up forever. The only solution is to take a housing loan.

Theo_Fidel wrote:Hm! Something does not compute here....

In cities like Bengaluru (and perhaps Chennai and Kochi as well) this trend of every one trying to get a house quickly has also sky rocketed the land prices. Even sub-standard flats are given out at jacked up prices. Many fall for this as they really would be thinking that Bengaluru/Chennai/Kochi would provide them a job for ever and so it is better to stay here. And since they decide to stay here, the next move is to get a home quickly. Off course "Keep up with the Jones" mentality is also a killer here.

BTW, Commercial Taxes have started investigations on the real estate cheating tricks at Bengaluru.
City’s top builders feel full weight of Comm Tax dept

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 06 Jan 2015 22:44

ChandraV's point was not about spending money on frivolous stuff like buying iphones or high end cars but buying a house. I haven't seen folks flaunting their gizmos or the rims too much in India. If you see the office parking lots, you could count the expensive cars in one hand.
Even before the IT boom, buying a house was always a stretch goal, which involved sacrificing other expenses. And houses built in metros 30 years back are worth crores now and the current generation is enjoying that. The ideal trick is to get the EMI close to the rent but it is a long process to get there.
Compared to the really high rollers in other industries and businesses, IT munnas are the least blingy.
I don't understand the vibe that IT folks in India need to be apologetic and defensive about their profession and the money derived out of it. Folks here do pretty much the similar work in their respective domains irrespective of the location.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jan 2015 22:58

Saravana,

It is not the house that is worth that much but the land.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 06 Jan 2015 23:05

Am guessing it is the price of an apartment where only a theoretical patch of land is deeded. Land prices are much north than these numbers I guess!

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 06 Jan 2015 23:24

Does it make any (financial) sense to buy home in (some cities) India?
Or is it better to just rent, Save & Invest and buy post-retirement home in tier-3 city?