Indian IT Industry

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2015 07:56

Rb is in ces . I am sure a lot of east Asian cos from giants to one suitcase outfits selling phone covers are there.

Bade I was never complacent. Only family issues forced my decisions last two years. Will be more free come April.

I am the most alert on brf about cheeni creeping takeover as composite national power.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Jan 2015 11:03

matrimc wrote:But the question is more to do with whether the IT companies, individually and collectively, litigate against the Govt. and get a stay on the lay offs? What is the reason why unions are not allowed in a country that takes pride in the power of labour unions?

The IT companies as I see it would never confront the GoI (or any GoS) through courts or other means. Because in that case they would get hunted down like pigs. It does not take much time for a government to revise its stand against the IT companies. What IT companies would do would be to negotiate it with the governments or politicians (without much publicity) and get a nudge-nudge wink-wink approval for lay offs. The government may not through the rule book at them. I feel unless this becomes a large scale social problem, governments would just ignore it because IT also brings in large amount of income to the country.

I don't think any IT company has explicitly forbidden its employees from forming up unions/associations. I think some states have banned unions in their EZ (Export Zones). So if the IT companies also operate out of these zones, perhaps unions may not be allowed. When it comes to trade unions in IT, it was the IT employees themselves who did not think about it. Trade Unions still retain an impression of those blue coller workers who can run riot, threaten and bully the management and get their demands met (Gherao etc. etc.). IT employees perhaps thought that such strong arm tactics were not required, and every thing was given to them purely on merit. CITU had tried to form unions in IT company some years back, but it fizzled out. One thing their union leaders of those days also could not get into the IT employee's mind , as they mostly had the Union Leader in a factory mind set.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Jan 2015 19:02

x-Post from Internal Security thread (as it may be more relevant here, than a thread dealing with terrorism, investigations etc.

).

krithivas wrote:I think the following is a threat to the economic ascension of India and belongs here -
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... n-question
First was the attempted but failed Mandalization of the private sector and now the attempted unionization.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 08 Jan 2015 19:46

Sachin: I put it to you that IT people being members of a rising middle class instinctively duskike unions as ur goes against the grain of their libertarian/capitalist philosophy. Unions are same as socialism/communism.

Now if there is a hankering for Union formation, then they think that they are not going to rise above their middle class status and even think that they would sink to lower economic status.

Has IT run its course of growth. What we are seeing is the start of flattening out. Possible?

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 08 Jan 2015 20:00

Is there really an effort to unionise or a clickbaity FDM?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Jan 2015 20:02

IT != Systems Engineering. so, it might not flatten out, but remain exclusive. The future might change where every system or product becomes IT oriented, in the sense there is a smart chip embedded. That is when we will see a possibility of flattening out.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2015 21:30

iT sector already has unions. They gather of facebook pages and change.org petitions and that's all they will do.

If a lockout occurs where will the next Emi come from?

These ppl have something to lose unlike the low end cpim type unions standing valiant guard over jute plants that closed in 50s,
Still drawing salary pensions and waiting for revival pkg.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Jan 2015 22:27

SaiK wrote: it might not flatten out, but remain exclusive.

The pay will probably flatten out.

If you are making 10 lkh PA in IT in India this is ~ to $25,000 in USA pay. Which means the fellow in India is better than 1/3 as productive as fellow in USA making $75,000. IMHO this is the challenge. This what KJo keeps pointing out in his own pithy manner.

If you stick to wage arbitrage there is a vulnerability. If USA fellow doubles his productivity over 10 years, but India fellow does not keep up then either he will take a 50% paycut or he will lose his job.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 08 Jan 2015 22:36

I don't know how one guy can double his productivity? Has it happened in the manufacturing jobs that went to China?

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 08 Jan 2015 22:47

Singha wrote:iT sector already has unions. They gather of facebook pages and change.org petitions and that's all they will do.

If a lockout occurs where will the next Emi come from?

These ppl have something to lose unlike the low end cpim type unions standing valiant guard over jute plants that closed in 50s,
Still drawing salary pensions and waiting for revival pkg.

Do IT people in India mostly live paycheck to paycheck like many goras here in the US do?
If I lose my job, I don't have to worry about mortgage payment because I have saved a decent amount for a rainy day. I don't depend on social sec or any handouts.
My Mrs would complain that I am a kunjoos when Kunal was Mr Cool with his new car, new iFoon etc, but then I knew what I was doing. Mental peace is the best luxury one can have. Not materialistic pleasures.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 08 Jan 2015 23:21

Singha wrote: I am the most alert on brf about cheeni creeping takeover as composite national power.

EastEuropeans make the Chinese look soft

. Chinese may be a force in electronics and manufacturing, the EEs are making a mark on software. The ones I met were professional, matter of fact to the point of bluntness,no prima donna behaviour and very smart. They were camping in a good numbers in Bay Area.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2015 23:40

KJo wrote:If I lose my job, I don't have to worry about mortgage payment because I have saved a decent amount for a rainy day. I don't depend on social sec or any handouts.

I do not agree that this is true for the median of the population. KJo has mentioned his background and title, so he probably makes enough to sock away for hard times. In the top 10 cities where more of the employment is in the US the average pay is much less than $100k and I am not limiting to IT-Vity alone. After all the deductions even at $100k, cash in hand to spend is probably not more than $60k, roughly $5k a month. Out of this you will have to pay for house, food, fuel, and car. House itself will take away $2000 at a minimum for a 1200sq ft home as rent or higher in mortgage if you bought the home now. Food and fuel for a family will easily be $1000 at a minimum more like $1500 to $2000. Car payments at lowest end of cars assuming two will again be $500 or more. You are left with nothing to save for a rainy day. You cannot go lower than $2000 in rent for an apt in a decent school district. So the average joe in America has a hand to mouth existence. Only thing he will have is his 401k and SS benefits.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 08 Jan 2015 23:51

Singha wrote:When the American engr mafia blocked huawei from ietf they went long on the Itu.

.

How can/could anyone block anyone else? What happened and what is ltu?

Not many US companies are sending techies to conf as they used to; in some only if you have an accepted paper or presentation otherwise no.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2015 23:58

Forget companies, even univs or institutes do not pay for a trip to a conference if you have nothing to present.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2015 00:32

Bade wrote:..Only thing he will have is his 401k and SS benefits.

err.. the one that he invests by way of mortgage is his/hers! no? of course, he has to sell it to realize it.

will definitely show up only when you say move down from the invested state- like (fully paid up) or after retirement, you move away from your $million home (no more kunal-neha match up) to say good old-age home or retire in desh.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 09 Jan 2015 01:01

Saik,

Are we going to get a new thread.

I don't want to waste my bakwass.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jan 2015 01:04

I am using the rental model. You cannot own a home anymore in inner city areas. I know of researchers with 10+ yrs of work life, who are still renting. I even know of a MBA gent older than me who never bought a home lives in the Bay area renting for the last 20+ yrs. So it depends on location. Most people I know in the greater Chicago areas own homes.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 09 Jan 2015 01:19

Bade wrote:
KJo wrote:If I lose my job, I don't have to worry about mortgage payment because I have saved a decent amount for a rainy day. I don't depend on social sec or any handouts.
I do not agree that this is true for the median of the population. KJo has mentioned his background and title, so he probably makes enough to sock away for hard times. In the top 10 cities where more of the employment is in the US the average pay is much less than $100k and I am not limiting to IT-Vity alone. After all the deductions even at $100k, cash in hand to spend is probably not more than $60k, roughly $5k a month. Out of this you will have to pay for house, food, fuel, and car. House itself will take away $2000 at a minimum for a 1200sq ft home as rent or higher in mortgage if you bought the home now. Food and fuel for a family will easily be $1000 at a minimum more like $1500 to $2000. Car payments at lowest end of cars assuming two will again be $500 or more. You are left with nothing to save for a rainy day. You cannot go lower than $2000 in rent for an apt in a decent school district. So the average joe in America has a hand to mouth existence. Only thing he will have is his 401k and SS benefits.

Well Saar, I am not very TFTA salary wise. It's been a challenge with the recession, racism, etc. If I was in the Bay near RB, then it may have been different. I didn't get all the great career breaks that some people got. No fancy McKinsey, Booz, Bain mgmt consulting. When I graduated from Biz skool, no one was hiring (2008).

But I have saved and sacrificed. Until recently I was driving a 98 Accord which I bought new. I didn't care what people thought. Now I feel I can afford it, so I upgraded to a Bummer. But not a TFTA 7 series, just a very SDRE 328. And one I got for a great deal too with only required options. Investing for 15 years, that paid off Yem Bee Yay myself with no loan and house down payment (20%). Stayed away from debt except mortgage. Now I have another car payment, but i will get rid of that when I can. Kunal and Neha suspect my father has been funding all of this, but it is not true at all. No dowry either.

Wife just started working in Aug, so single income onleeee. I don't buy the hottest phone models, I just recently bought a used iPhone5s on eBay. Bought same one for Mrs KJo wen Kunal and Neha were toting iPhone6 phones with a flourish. Went to very few vacations, but hope to go to more.

If something bad happens, I think I have saved enough to get by. That's what I am talking about that I think nanhas in India don't seem to be doing. They seem to think prosperity will last forever. I hope I am wrong because a fall will be really bad.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2015 01:25

It is sad to know researchers remain subdued by advancing IT men who deny money to r&d beyond a particular time period. it could be because of the research area complexity or the product+services have moved away from the research output. may be this is the same issue hitting hard on product deliveries, that are heavily dependent on software/IT/embedded systems in desh as well. The mighty example is LCA [not saying the fault of researcher, but I would qualify as there is a deep disconnect in what one is researching and what might actually end up getting used by people to generate revenue for business].

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jan 2015 01:28

I am little more in house debt now, but mortgage is same as what I would have to pay in rent for the same. So it is ok, but single income status for the last few years hurt surely. I have socked away in assets in India, so that is the only comfort zone to face any calamity. The old TH is getting me rental above mortgage for now, so have not sold it either. It is always a worry, the best is to dispose it off and reduce the mortgage outgo. It is a balancing act for now. Previously it was a good deal as mortgage on TH was lower than what I would have paid in rent, this was true even wen I bought it in early 2000 just after the dot-com bubble burst. So far investments have turned out wise, but it is all on paper

no guarantees in life.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jan 2015 01:28

This year's CES is meh. Daimler has a cool concept but products wise it all sux. Even Occulus down the aisle is just showing off old crap to the clueless. Media is also dejected....not one could tell me anything interesting they saw when I asked. The chipanda Shenzhen folks are rough around the edges but poised to dominate. Somebody referred to the huge line of Shenzhen stalls next to Occulus as the Shenzhen Night Market

Lots of imported chipanda PYTs, imported in to attract visitors. Perhaps mort is right...time to close down CES.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jan 2015 01:29

SaiK, even in applied research areas which are not fundamental sciences, the pay is poor. If you like your job then it is likely the pay will be poor.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 09 Jan 2015 02:16

Raja Bose wrote: Lots of imported chipanda PYTs, imported in to attract visitors. Perhaps mort is right...time to close down CES.

From wikipedia

"Booth babes" controversy

Part of the press, like the BBC and The Verge, ran stories (in 2012–2014) about the alleged unsuitable presence of "booth babes" (scantily dressed glamor models) at the show.[67][68] Other publications, like PC Magazine, although aware of the controversy relished however in publishing galleries of booth babes without negative commentary.[69][70] In 2013, CES organizers released statements in which they claimed that enforcing business casual attire for the exhibitor personnel would be impractical and would detract CES staff on the ground from their main focus of providing security.[71]

In a background story in The Wire, Rebecca Greenfield wrote that "booth babes" were initially called "CES Guides" and they "date back to the beginning of the Consumer Electronics Show" (1967) and that "they've been the subject of controversy and nerd fantasy alike". According to Greenfield's research, the first use of the term "booth babe" appeared in a Toronto Star article covering the 1986 CES. She also writes that the "scantily clad" attire "became norm" at CES in the 1970-1980 decade, in synchrony with similar developments in the auto show industry. Greenfield also remarks that complaints about booth babes at CES are not entirely new; she points out for example that Network World "wrote a few separate times that it was flat-out tired of booth babes — not because of the sexism so much as the predictability." For example, in 1999, Network World's Dave Breuger criticized the practice of employing spokesmodels, "most of whom wouldn't know an ATM module if it bit them on their overexposed games." Greenfield notes that other electronics shows like E3 have adopted a similar practice of encouraging "booth babes" in the late 1990s, but abandoned it in 2006 after outcry, with E3 organizers later threatening to fine any exhibitor for "nudity, partial nudity, and bathing-suit bottoms".[72]

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jan 2015 02:37

The gori booth babes this year mostly seem to be ones who were probably in their prime during the 1967 CES. One of our liasons is a stunning 6ft Swedish blonde with the classic Scandinavian look. On top of that she wears 6 inch heels....makes it very hard to speak up to the tower.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 09 Jan 2015 03:03

Raja Bose wrote:The gori booth babes this year mostly seem to be ones who were probably in their prime during the 1967 CES. One of our liasons is a stunning 6ft Swedish blonde with the classic Scandinavian look. On top of that she wears 6 inch heels....makes it very hard to speak up to the tower.

Did her knockers poke your eyes out??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2015 03:19

so bose babu seeing this all in "eye tee" onlee.

bade sahib, per prof kashyap (perdue), 'was told gets huge darpa funds! he has multiple projects perhaps running at least couple of millions

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jan 2015 03:48

^^ see told about the shenzhen crowd.

the line between degrees and branches is blurring. in india we used to be very stuck up about allowing only ECE and CSE grads to apply for jobs in IT.
some cos did not consider even MCAs. well know anyone who knows programming and maths well can compete globally and make life tough for the narrow itvity munna types. my cousin was telling me of his workplace in palo alto and his nearest neighbours are two middle aged ex-profs from europe and a guy who did his phd in another discipline from a top univ but changed over to big data scientist.

so overall, the era of getting by with just learning some pkgs is perhaps ending.....concepts have become very important. I doubt the most talent driven smaller cos care which branch you did as long as you meet their criteria.

but ppl even in massa with decades of loyal service in bigger cos consider it their stable temple and immune from Kronos. problem is Kronos does not care. amid the falling ramparts people might still clutch the round pillars as the temple crashes...

india also ppl have started using hackathons to recruit talent and no limits to who can try via online link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#med ... fig274.png

after 15 yrs in the sleepy EDA field my cousin shifted to the front end of web solutions and does javascript,c#, ruby and their vast library systems now. he delivered me a sharp slap on my wrist and told me while its fine to remain at back end of things (if its a good job), to learn all the front stuff to asap.

Singha a month ago

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/ ... unkcat.jpg

Singha now

http://www.our-happy-cat.com/images/sca ... hiding.jpg

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jan 2015 03:59

KJo wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:The gori booth babes this year mostly seem to be ones who were probably in their prime during the 1967 CES. One of our liasons is a stunning 6ft Swedish blonde with the classic Scandinavian look. On top of that she wears 6 inch heels....makes it very hard to speak up to the tower.
Did her knockers poke your eyes out??

Her...um...knockers go way above my head. We have an ex West Indies kirketer of the Curtly Ambrose build and even he felt a little dwarfed by le blonde.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2015 05:01

aye aye.. eye tee and yell yum goes hand in hand!

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 09 Jan 2015 07:31

Singha wrote: so overall, the era of getting by with just learning some pkgs is perhaps ending.....concepts have become very important. I doubt the most talent driven smaller cos care which branch you did as long as you meet their criteria.

True. Fundamental understanding of concepts and the ability to adapt them to situations is crucial , something which our Indic education never teaches us. Then again i doubt dinosaurs would just fall down and die without putting up a fight. The Jurrasic extension event is yet to be written and it could be very well be a Triassic to Jurassic period change looking at the current level of mass hiring still happening.

Either case, i am okay with Jurassic level event and only hope that it is not a Permian great dying

.

Singha wrote:
after 15 yrs in the sleepy EDA field my cousin shifted to the front end of web solutions and does javascript,c#, ruby and their vast library systems now. he delivered me a sharp slap on my wrist and told me while its fine to remain at back end of things (if its a good job), to learn all the front stuff to asap.

How could someone change from EDA (I guess some Verilog/VHDL or PCB) to JS/C# ? Wouldn't that be a leap to big to jump and one would be forced to start from scratch ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jan 2015 07:55

he is btech cse from iit kanpur and national IMO finalist. had a trouble few yrs but seems to be back in ebullient combative flow mode now, regaling me with he pulls the legs of people with fancy 'scientist' designations with math problems they cannot solve.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 09 Jan 2015 10:03

Altair wrote:Can anyone here help me in getting a mandate to place pre-trained freshers in IT industry? (DOT NET, JAVA, TESTING etc..)
Freshers have been screened and filtered already.
They are from 2013,2014 batches.
I heard companies like HCL,Mindtree and Wipro tie up with few vendors to get pre-trained freshers at a cost which is beneficial to everybody.

I am trying to place very poor people. Their parents are daily wage laborers,housemaids, few are orphans.
If anyone here can connect me to corporates, it would be very helpful. I will take care of all the infrastructure needed to train these people including trainers.

Pls email me at rajesh.bhaskar on google.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Jan 2015 10:26

matrimc wrote:I put it to you that IT people being members of a rising middle class instinctively duskike unions as ur goes against the grain of their libertarian/capitalist philosophy. Unions are same as socialism/communism.

I tend to agree with you. IT during the boom period (1990s to say even upto 2005 or so) provided a few people large amounts of money. IT companies also encouraged their employees to think as "individuals", and that "individual merit and competency" was what mattered. It is in IT companies which I saw offer letters and some times salary hike letters having statements like, this information is confidential and it should not be shared/discussed

. Where as in other industires pay scales were pretty much well known. IT employees also find it all okay, because after all they get paid pretty much okay and it was "individual contribution" which mattered the most. The high focus on individualism may also be a reason why IT company employees generally are not very united. But now things are changing and it is large groups of people who are getting effected, so that may be a reason when IT employees are now think of unions etc.

.

Now if there is a hankering for Union formation, then they think that they are not going to rise above their middle class status and even think that they would sink to lower economic status.
.....
Has IT run its course of growth. What we are seeing is the start of flattening out. Possible?

My gut feeling is that IT would soon be like another job, say in banks or other commercial establishments. Openings would be there, people would get recruited but they would never become "super rich" by working in IT establishments. Earlier there were "onsite oppurtunity" aplenty, but that again is changing. Many companies have reduced their Onsite salaries etc., so people with family some times even prefer to work out of India. I feel a flattening out would be coming in sooner than later. Various other non-IT sectors have started getting better wages/salaries, and they are much more organised in putting up their demands. In a city like Bengaluru (where pretty much every thing is over priced), an IT employee is just the middle class.

Singha wrote:iT sector already has unions. They gather of facebook pages and change.org petitions and that's all they will do.

In that way IT folks are like AAP-tards. If Mao said - "Revolution through Gun barrels", for IT folks it is mainly revolution through Facebook or Change.org.

KJo wrote:Do IT people in India mostly live paycheck to paycheck like many goras here in the US do?
If I lose my job, I don't have to worry about mortgage payment because I have saved a decent amount for a rainy day.

Yes very much sir!

. Off course there would be IT folks who have saved money and can rework on their loans etc. But there are lots of others who have not saved any money (which I feel is their own fault), or have taken up too many loans which they may find to repay.

Bade wrote:I am using the rental model. You cannot own a home anymore in inner city areas.

An economist in Bengaluru had once come up with a theory, where in certain places it is better to stay on rent rather than buying a villa/apartment. I got this through other friends (on e-mails etc.), so I don't have very accurate information. But this economist had come up with a kind of scenarios in which renting a home (even if it is for 15-20 years) is much more economical than buying a home in that place.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 09 Jan 2015 10:28

EDA is not only Verilog/VHDL. Layout, Placement, routing, verification, pre- and post- optimizations, synthesis, signal integrity, electro migration, Monte Carlo, design centering, process simulation, spice itself, power grid (one of the important areas right now), package both electrical and heat, HW-SW co-simulation, ... The list goes on. MICs (uW ICs) involve another level complexity.

Backend is much bigger than the front end languages and extraction.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 09 Jan 2015 12:49

rajpa
pliss to check mail.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Jan 2015 13:00

No one will rent out the same house for more than 1 year atleast in chennai , unless they known you very well , even then rents will go up by min 10%

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2015 21:39

matrimc wrote:EDA is not only Verilog/VHDL. Layout, Placement, routing, verification, pre- and post- optimizations, synthesis, signal integrity, electro migration, Monte Carlo, design centering, process simulation, spice itself, power grid (one of the important areas right now), package both electrical and heat, HW-SW co-simulation, ... The list goes on. MICs (uW ICs) involve another level complexity.

Backend is much bigger than the front end languages and extraction.

Just saw this:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1822 ... in-savings

With India's AHWR reaching maturity, we should also think about distribution and grid!

backend is where the bijnej meets!

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 12 Jan 2015 00:15

Mrs KJo just called her up parents in BLR. My sasoorji is the typical person living in India these days, all bluster about how great India is, how US sucks and how downfall is imminent etc. So he was gloating about INFY giving "100% bonus". Why did he bring this up? He isn't getting any money and neither are we. Chumma show off. I hadn't heard of it, so I googled it up afterwards and something like that was announced today.

Infosys to pay 100 per cent variable bonus to employees for December quarter

NEW DELHI: Infosys on Friday said it would pay out 100% variable bonus to employees for the quarter ended December.

"We have made 100% variable payout for Q3 and have seen a further decline in attrition as a result of multiple initiatives taken over the last few quarters," said U. B. Pravin Rao, Infosys chief operating officer.

So what sasoorji didn't say was that INFY was giving money to employees because they were going to leave because morale was down because INFY sucks.
Then Mrs KJo asked him about TCS layoffs and he feigned ignorance.

He'd never heard of this which was making big news all over the country and among desis the world over.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2015 00:28

^ I don't think INFY is giving every employee 100% of their salary is bonus. I think what they are saying is they are going to pay 100% of variable pay which often is about 20-40% of total pay. Often they pay only a part of variable pay after discounting it based on individual performance.

Am I wrong?

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 12 Jan 2015 01:12

RamaY wrote:^ I don't think INFY is giving every employee 100% of their salary is bonus. I think what they are saying is they are going to pay 100% of variable pay which often is about 20-40% of total pay. Often they pay only a part of variable pay after discounting it based on individual performance.

Am I wrong?

I didn't go into the details since I had to do other things, but I told my wife that the 100% bonus always comes with 100000000 caveats. Like it would apply only if you are with INFY for 5+ years and if your rating was above some level and if you belonged to a division making at least 'x'% revenue growth etc etc. In the end, only a small percentage make any money. I bet even the 100% is over a small percentage of the salary, I don't think anyone's take-home is doubled for the year.

But when has small details stopped the IT jingos in India? "100% bonus" makes a great sound bite. In the years gone, my sasoorji would boast that "in my neighborhood, every street has minimum 2-3 IT companies coming up".