Indian IT Industry

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Rishirishi
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Rishirishi » 29 May 2009 04:00

What are the greatest Challenges and where do Indians lag behind as compared to Western counterparts?

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Dileep » 29 May 2009 07:20

I knew I wanted to be an engineer when I was 8-9. Simply because engineers build things, and I loved building things. My son loves building things, but he says he is very confused because there are lots of options out there that he likes.

I told him though as a dad "I" would like him to be an engineer, he is free to do ANYTHING that makes a honest living.

People go to medicine because it pays a lot. People go to engineering because that is highly "employable". People go to others because they didn't get the first two.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Bade » 29 May 2009 08:32

People go to medicine because it pays a lot. People go to engineering because that is highly "employable". People go to others because they didn't get the first two.


This attitude was prevalent among Malayalees in the 80's for sure (maybe can be generalized to all South Indians too), but this assumption fails as one goes more north. It is even less so in the east, where a lot of rank holders from engg and medicine used to decide to do pure sciences.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Rishirishi » 29 May 2009 08:41

Bade wrote:
People go to medicine because it pays a lot. People go to engineering because that is highly "employable". People go to others because they didn't get the first two.


This attitude was prevalent among Malayalees in the 80's for sure (maybe can be generalized to all South Indians too), but this assumption fails as one goes more north. It is even less so in the east, where a lot of rank holders from engg and medicine used to decide to do pure sciences.


Mallu, panju, gujju or kallu the logic applies for the whole lot. In the 80's the Baniyas did not focus on studies, because there were no good salried work arround. But now even the Baniyas has started to focus studies.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Bade » 29 May 2009 08:42

Rishirishi wrote:What are the greatest Challenges and where do Indians lag behind as compared to Western counterparts?


The greatest challenges will be in having a large enough critical mass of creative thinkers, who are missing from one of the world's largest collection of engineers and medical practitioners. This will remain India's achilles heel so to speak. We will remain dependent on the west for most inputs to new ideas and technology for some time to come, without a sufficient number of talented people grinding themselves in pursuits for its own sake irrespective of wealth promised in return.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 29 May 2009 10:15

Bade wrote:This attitude was prevalent among Malayalees in the 80's for sure (maybe can be generalized to all South Indians too), but this assumption fails as one goes more north.

Dot on. Infact there is also a lot of pressure from all possible quarters to make a chap take up medicine or engineering. I can still remember the frown many of my folks had when I scored extremely well :roll: in my 10th exams and took up commerce. From medicine and engineering hopes were lowered to becoming a good chartered accountant. Extremely good performance at +2 ensured that I had to move to a graduate degree in Arts :lol:.

Thinking back I realise that for an arts graduate too there were still very many options. Civil Service, Defence Services are all there. One thing I noticed is that in up north, the Civil Services is still a highly chosen career option. Don't think that trend has caught up in Kerala even now.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby krishnan » 29 May 2009 10:19

Where i live, there are about 15 dental students, all going to the same college, living in rented houses. all of them malayalees

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 29 May 2009 10:30

if there were a US/EU style unemployment benefits, social security fund and housing asset price bubble for decades, plus very easy credit, low cost of food and transport relative to income and loan rate as 4%, plus good medical insurance for almost all employed people - Yindus would be far more tolerant of taking risk and also spending money.

india has to become a lot richer country overall before people will start taking risks. right now the margin of error for many families climbing out of the lower middle class is rather thin.

observe the behaviour of deer in a safe area and in a lion infested savana. when no threats are around they will spread out, explore, form new sub groups, try out new routes....

when lions are there, they will go for the % play and stick together into one big herd and the safest routes to grass and water

blame the env (korruption, nehruvian economics, massa machinations) that keeps the lions around, not the deer.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Dileep » 29 May 2009 10:48

Yet another reason I am your fan Singha!

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 29 May 2009 12:17

yeah dark lord is the one man army against the overseas jingos :twisted: .

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby bart » 29 May 2009 12:34

^ +1 :twisted:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Bade » 29 May 2009 19:54

Singha, if you look at the developments with regard to new ideas in the sciences in Europe from the 18th to the 20th century, you will notice that most of the contributors to that success came from poor backgrounds. Some had to undergo immense poverty and denial of social status due to the prevalent politics of the era and despite all that persevered in their searches be it in mathematics, physics or other disciplines. They in fact laid the foundation on which all else is built. If it were just trading and colonization which was the thrust of European supremacy of the last few centuries, then we would not have seen such spectacular rise in the quality of life and technology and dominance. People all over the world have been trading and going on loot and pillage all through the centuries with little to show.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby AkshayM » 30 May 2009 02:45

The bottom line is without risk there is no reward. Idea is to like what you are doing/learning. If you like engineering by all means do that. It is not correct to say or assume that if you didn't get in med/eng you opt for other studies. I didn't try med/eng and went for bcom. Although I should have continued with some specialization after bcom. The cycle of job search --> slog --> quit/layoff --> job search --> slog continues until you die. The fact is if you don't think towards higher goal you will grind through life in average job (and I include VP/Director/lead type job also in it).

If your goal is to get a "job" or be "employable" then that will be the limit you will succeed to. However, I understand GD's point about the margin of error. But on the flip side the hunger is what should make someone take risk and reach for higher goal. It is especially important when you are young and just starting out.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SriKumar » 30 May 2009 04:57

Bade wrote: ...... kids who knew exactly what they wanted to do by the age of 17. If majority of that age does not know what they want to do in the current age of instant information, it is their loss alone.


Is it reasonable to expect someone to know what they will do for the rest of their life (careerwise) by the age 17? This part boggles mind a little bit. The only situation where this holds good is if the available choices are few/limited. Having access to instant information, IMHO, is only half the picture (or less). The other half is about knowing what will work for oneself. This could take longer. I submit that knowing what to do at a young age would occur to a certain few (Ramanujam knew he wanted to do Math, V. Anand knew it was chess for him), but this cannot be applied at large. It is quite possible that one chooses X and gets fed up of it in 1 year, or 5 years or 15 years and wants to do something else. I can only agree to the extent that practical constraints of living a stable life with steady income forces one to make choices by 17 years of age, in certain societies.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Bade » 30 May 2009 08:02

The point being made was by age 17 one would be expected to know what one wants to do if not necessarily for all of life. The life long exploration of ones capabilities and limitations roughly begins at that age for most. Many want a choice made for entire life around that time....which may be asking for too much.

A widely held belief that course-work tailor made for a particular career does exist in reality is only a myth.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 30 May 2009 09:08

what about people who choose the 'wrong' branch? I went through a agonizing phase after 12th whether to study cse or ee ( was getting in both ) ...asked everybody ... everyone asked me to run with what I liked....problem was I didnt have any idea what was taught in engg college for these and 'job prospects' later. I had no high-profile "stud" elder brother/sisters to help me out
there.

later on in life I kind of realized both were the 'wrong' choices and I might have gone to jj school of arch in mumbai like my close buddy did.

today he does what he wants, has a client backlog of 3 yrs, works his own hours, decides his
own salary, has slimmed down and sports smart beard and snappy shoes.

I sneak down the aisle trying to avoid managers and satisfy myself by reading interior decor and arch magazines :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Yogi_G » 30 May 2009 09:25

Well, I went through this too, but realized that the grass is always green on the other side,

my yum bee yae friend from IIM quit IT before taking it up, landed a job in SE Asia, made big$ and drove hot cars...I would always look at him and think, oh man did I get smthng wrong, but right nw he has been laid off and keeps telling me hw safe an IT-Vity job is compared to Marketing....

In a sense the IT-Vity jobs seem to suit me best, at least in my case its a 10 to 7 job, weekends off, kind of matches my idea of life, a lambretta scooter, a 9 to 5 job and fixed salary, kind of 70ish middle class family kind of thing (my wife wants this too)...err replace the lambretta scooter with a wagon r in my case :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 30 May 2009 09:31

what about people who choose the 'wrong' branch?

Very true ... in my case I never really took anything seriously .Until 12th std my mother wanted me to join the armed forces or become a Doctor while my father wanted me to pursue PhD in physics. :shock: I personally found joining Armed forces a natural choice as all my relatives have served one of the three services, however was booted out during the last stage during the SSB :oops: .
I even gave CBSE PMT and AFMC entrance exams (flunked in flying colors :lol: ) however managed to qualify for a Dental college in the state Govt College but I was never interested in BDS. Finally choice was between Mech,EE,E&TC and CS and in midst of the confusion I first took up CS only to switch to E&TC later.

I always think I would have done very well had I taken Applied Physics or even Mechanical Engg.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 30 May 2009 09:39

Meanwhile.. Premji does not mince words while expressing his views on H1B and Outsourceing as such

H-1B restrictions would choke US of talent: Premji

WASHINGTON: Wipro's executive chairman Azim Premji has warned that a proposal to restrict hiring holders of H-1B visas for skilled workers will choke America of talent coming in and could generate a trade war with countries such as India.

"In my opinion it's a very drastic initiative," he said in an interview with BusinessWeek, referring to a bill in the US Senate basically preventing firms from hiring H-1Bs in the US or bringing in holders of L1 visas for semi-skilled workers.

"It will choke the United States
of talent coming in. You will not be able to substitute the absence of this talent with local hires because it's not easily available," Premji said.

"Also, you'll generate a trade war with countries such as India," he said, calling it as a freedom-of-trade issue. "It's precisely what President (Barack) Obama said in the G20 meeting: The United States will not get into a spate of protectionism."

Premji suggested the US must realize that today 60 to 70% of the growth of the revenues of large American companies comes from India
and China.

"These are the growth markets. It's a simple thing for our government to raise tariffs. It's a simple thing for our government to say no American corporation will get central or state government contracts , or defence contracts," he warned.
..yeah imagine if mamta or like minded yahoo bans likes of pepsi,coke,kfc and Mac-Dee :lol:

Noting that the software and BPO industries for India represent 24% of its exports, Premji said: "These are critical industries for emerging countries... There's no way our government can take it lightly."

Asked what would happen if the bill passes, the Wipro chief said Obama "is too sensible to pass it. He's too mature".

Describing global trade in IT as vital "because the economies of all countries are getting more and more the dominance of services, versus manufacturing and agriculture", Premji said: "To risk a cycle of protectionism, it's not worth it."

"What's the total of visas issued in a year? 20,000 to India. What will you achieve? The 20,000 will come down to 12,000. You'll create 8,000 more jobs, theoretically, with the rules. "What's that compared to 9% unemployment on a total labour force of 100 million?" he asked, calling it "a very short term approach".

Asked why IBM and Accenture were employing so many people in India, Premji said: "They like the low labour rates... the quality of the people, the willingness to work hard. They're not getting the people they need in the United States. That's the bottom line."

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 30 May 2009 15:17

Yogi_G wrote:In a sense the IT-Vity jobs seem to suit me best, at least in my case its a 10 to 7 job, weekends off, kind of matches my idea of life, a lambretta scooter, a 9 to 5 job and fixed salary, kind of 70ish middle class family kind of thing (my wife wants this too)...err replace the lambretta scooter with a wagon r in my case :mrgreen:

Beautifully put, and it echoes pretty much my sentiments as well ;). I am now trying to pursue some of my hobbies which I had left long back.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Dileep » 30 May 2009 15:35

I liked architecture too, but that was not a viable option for this village boy. I was already well into electronics hobby, so ECE was a natural choice.

I too like the low tension ITVty job :lol:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SriKumar » 30 May 2009 21:02

Singha wrote:what about people who choose the 'wrong' branch? I went through a agonizing phase after 12th whether to study cse or ee ( was getting in both ) ...asked everybody ... everyone asked me to run with what I liked....problem was I didnt have any idea what was taught in engg college for these and 'job prospects' later.
Here's where the inflexibility of the education system and the job market comes into play. If the opportunity was there, I suppose you might have preferred doing a minor in one and got a flavor of both. I think this is more about the societal mind-set rather than a lack of resources.

later on in life I kind of realized both were the 'wrong' choices and I might have gone to jj school of arch in mumbai like my close buddy did.
Different strokes for different folks.....I could have done Arch. at Khgpr but had no interest in that field as a career. I do have a great interest in 'artistic architecture' :lol: i.e. temple/church architecture and sculpture.

Ultimately, the inflexibility of the societal mindset is the root cause of the strait-jacketed life and career, IMHO. I personally see a huge positive in a student who takes 5 years to complete his B.E. but takes courses outside his major field. I dont think most employers/interviewers would see it this way, though.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby markos » 31 May 2009 00:15

negi wrote:Meanwhile.. Premji does not mince words while expressing his views on H1B and Outsourceing as such

H-1B restrictions would choke US of talent: Premji


I don't think Premji propaganda has many takers these days. There are plenty of unemployed americans available in the market.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/art ... src=kc_top
U.S. government is raising broad questions as part of a federal case over H-1Bs about the connection of visa fraud to the unemployment of IT workers.

The government's interest in H-1B fraud-related unemployment turned up in court filings in a case in U.S. District Court in Iowa against a New Jersey IT firm, Visions Systems Group in South Plainfield, NJ, which was indicted in February on visa-related fraud charges.

Visions Systems was included in a sweep that led to arrests of some 11 people in six states. The government, in announcing its action, said the companies and people involved were "displacing qualified American workers," but didn't identify how many. In court papers filed last month, the U.S. indicated it may be getting ready to do just that.


With Durbin/Grassley proposed reforms, I can see how Premji will be concerned because his firm is not that different from crooks like vision systems when it comes to discriminating against americans. How many american citizens/permanent residents are employed by Wipro? While Wipro requests nearly 3000 H1 visa and countless L1s, how many americans are on Wipro's payroll?

Coke and Pepsi aren't bringing americans to do business in India.

Also Obama may have read the following article :rotfl:
http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2 ... s-sena.htm
The Income Tax department has agreed to give priority to 'sons of soil' and use of Marathi language in its offices, a Shiv Sena leader has said.
'Two key demands of the Shiv Sena -- priority to 'sons of soils' and use of Marathi in the department's offices have been accepted by the I-T Chief Commissioner (Mumbai region),' Anil Desai, who led the delegation of Sthaniya Lokadhikar Samiti Mahasangh, a Sena outfit which seeks to promote job opportunities for locals, told PTI.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 31 May 2009 01:05

Markos you are taking advantage of the anonymity on the internet and posting utter BS .

The current economic meltdown has lead to increase in unemployment across the globe across the Industry , IT and Outsourcing is a small chunk of the huge pie.

The total number of unemployed Americans are not just limited to IT services , secondly even the H1B or other visa holders have lost their job so I don't see how this loss in jobs is being attributed to the H1B holders . Lastly you need to read the article more carefully

"What's the total of visas issued in a year? 20,000 to India. What will you achieve? The 20,000 will come down to 12,000. You'll create 8,000 more jobs, theoretically, with the rules. "What's that compared to 9% unemployment on a total labour force of 100 million?" he asked, calling it "a very short term approach".


And btw the cap on H1B will only increase the number of jobs being outsourced (its already happening as we speak) , and now that Obama admin has started to play dirty, chankian Yindoos will reduce the overheads and rates even lower .

Heck even Accenture Ltd is planning to change its place of incorporation to Ireland from Bermuda as the U.S. government plans to tighten tax rules .Moreover while likes of IBM global services,Accenture,Cap Gemini and even PWC might show themselves as based out of US/EU majority of their workforce is in INDIA and they will recruit even more folks at offshore once the likes of Infy,Wipro and TCS are forced to offshore more.


I can see how Premji will be concerned because his firm is not that different from crooks like vision systems when it comes to discriminating against americans


Discriminating .. :lol: how , when ?

--edited , trying my best to be civil---

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby AnimeshP » 31 May 2009 05:03

markos wrote:With Durbin/Grassley proposed reforms, I can see how Premji will be concerned because his firm is not that different from crooks like vision systems when it comes to discriminating against americans. How many american citizens/permanent residents are employed by Wipro? While Wipro requests nearly 3000 H1 visa and countless L1s, how many americans are on Wipro's payroll?


Well ... Durbin/Grassey can propose all the reforms they want ... on the ground the reality is pretty different. I know of ex-colleagues who have recently joined a new unit launched by an American MNC with huge presence in Bangalore. Right now the unit has a strength of about 500 and almost 60% of that are sales and pre-sales guys. The unit plans to grow to a strength of 10,000 (mostly IT dev guys) by the end of FY 2010. So looks to me that they are betting on US companies sending more stuff offshore even if the "anointed-one" says no ... :P

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby markos » 31 May 2009 05:16

Mr. Negi,

EDITED. I quoted the findings of US Govt. that there are more unemployed american IT workers than H1-B holders. So Premji's arguments about "talent" is starting to sound hollow now, doesn't it?

I repeat my question, what % of Wipro/TCS/Infosys's US workforce is comprised of US citizens/permanent residents? That is precisely why I said Wipro and the rest are fraudulent companies that violate EEOC laws in US. Now US govt. has caught up with the charade and the result is the Grassley/Durbin bill. There is very little difference between Vision systems and Wipro systems when it comes to hiring practices. That is precisely why Durbin/Grassley bill included that the firms applying H1s should have at least 50% american employees. It is not going to impact genuine companies like Microsoft, Google etc.. may not have a big impact on IBM or Accenture, but it is going to hit Wipro, Infy etc. who had been hiding behind Bill Gates back who will lobby for more visas, but Wipro actually gets more visas than Microsoft and Google combined. If you don't believe me, go and look at the H1-B visas statistics from the last 3 years on how many visas were obtained by TCS/INFY/Wipro vs Microsoft/Google/IBM.

If H1-B is reduced and as a result if outsourcing will increase, Mr. Premji EDITED should be happy. Why is he going around CNBC howling about retaliation? As a matter of fact, americans enrolling in computer science and related disciplines are increasing. So coupled wih the unemployed experienced US based IT professionals, there is less need for H1-B/L1 visas now

Again comparing Coke or Pepsi in India with Wipro in US is BS because Coke and Pepsi in India are employing Indians, not expatriate americans. If Indian Govt. shuts them down, Indians will be losing the job. Let us not forget, in 70s, Indian govt had kicked out IBM and Coca-Cola.

Indian companies, whether Wipro or Vision, in their infinite GREED, wanted to pit two groups of people against each other. I guess it is pay back time, now.

These days even economists, once ardent proponets of offshoring based on blind application of Ricardo's theories, are having second thoughts

http://www.computerworld.com/action/art ... geNumber=1
Some economists are recommending that U.S.-based companies that have sent work overseas bring it back to the U.S. They advocate for "on-shoring" or " backshoring"-not as a protectionist trade policy-but as a strategic move designed to conserve a market (namely, U.S. consumers.)

These economists argue that backshoring or reverse offshoring, as the practice is also known, will help stabilize the world's largest consumer market-the U.S.-as well as the world economies that depend on U.S. spending. They add that backshoring will also yield larger profit margins over the long term.
...
Several major U.S. companies including Sallie Mae, Delta, Dell and the Home Shopping Network are moving some of the work that they had offshored back home


No wonder Premji is trying his best to fool people with specious arguments.
Last edited by Jagan on 31 May 2009 09:42, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: No need for flame baits. you can make your point without being offensive to others

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Virupaksha » 31 May 2009 05:33

markos wrote:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/art ... geNumber=1
Some economists are recommending that U.S.-based companies that have sent work overseas bring it back to the U.S. They advocate for "on-shoring" or " backshoring"-not as a protectionist trade policy-but as a strategic move designed to conserve a market (namely, U.S. consumers.)



If this is not protectionism, I wouldnt know what is?

In the mean time, let other countries push off, McD and others to conserve their own markets (namely, Indian consumers). It takes two to tango.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 31 May 2009 06:25

markos wrote:Mr. Negi,
Why do you get so upset? I quoted the findings of US Govt. that there are more unemployed american IT workers than H1-B holders. So Premji's arguments about "talent" is starting to sound hollow now, doesn't it?

Markos you have only made blanket statements and moreover made accusations on the internet taking advantage of the limits of the internet media.

1. I don't think Premji propaganda has many takers these days.

what propaganda ? , he is merely stating his opinion backed by actual numbers .

2.I can see how Premji will be concerned because his firm is not that different from crooks like vision systems when it comes to discriminating against americans.
Thats crass accusation ; and I bet you aint gonna back it with anything except more BS.

3. No wonder Premji, the snake-oil salesman, is trying his best to fool people with specious arguments.

You expect us to even reply to such tripe ? what is your locus standi to make such accusations ?


Coming to your gibberish...

I repeat my question, what % of Wipro/TCS/Infosys's US workforce is comprised of US citizens/permanent residents?

How does that matter to the topic being discussed ? i.e. a cap on H1B is not gonna solve America's unemployment woes plain and simple (that is what Premji is trying to say )

That is precisely why I said Wipro and the rest are fraudulent companies that violate EEOC laws in US. Now US govt. has caught up with the charade and the result is the Grassley/Durbin bill. There is very little difference between Vision systems and Wipro systems when it comes to hiring practices. That is precisely why Durbin/Grassley bill included that the firms applying H1s should have at least 50% american employees.

Ah so companies with less than 50% americans are fradulent how convenient ?

And did you care to do come googling and check by what % IBM global services ,Accenture,Oracle and even Cap Gemini have ramped up their workforce in INDIA ?

It is not going to impact genuine companies like Microsoft, Google etc.. may not have a big impact on IBM or Accenture, but it is going to hit Wipro, Infy etc. who had been hiding behind Bill Gates back who will lobby for more visas, but Wipro actually gets more visas than Microsoft and Google combined. If you don't believe me, go and look at the H1-B visas statistics from the last 3 years on how many visas were obtained by TCS/INFY/Wipro vs Microsoft/Google/IBM.

Ah I see so more number of Visas is the cause of your takleef ? First things first by comparing the MSFT and Google with likes of Wipro and their operating model you have exhibited ignorance with regards to how offshoring/outsourcing works .

If H1-B is reduced and as a result if outsourcing will increase, Mr. Premji and you should be happy. Why is he going around CNBC howling about retaliation?

There is nothing in it for me to be happy or sad what is being highlighted here is the after effects of such a protectionist policy and the fact that reason being given for such a measure does not hold ground i.e. putting a cap on H1B's aint gonna solve America's unemployment issue (as being proclaimed by the supporters of the bill)

As a matter of fact, americans enrolling in computer science and related disciplines are increasing.

Yeah right... and did you check the increase in number of Indian professionals and even the students from India traveling to US every year for higher studies , the former will be a negligible blip when compared to the latter . :twisted:

Lastly the fundamental principle behind outsourcing being 'COST' continues to favour INDIA and INDIAN professionals which no one in this business can ignore , politicians, conservatives are free to ignore it at their own risk.

So coupled with the unemployed experienced US based IT professionals, there is less need for H1-B/L1 visas now

Have you ever been to Silicon Valley ? just check the number of start ups and small cos being run by these very H1B holders (yeah many of them might have become PR or Citizens) these corps have generated business and employment not for INDIA but for USA .


Some economists are recommending that U.S.-based companies that have sent work overseas bring it back to the U.S. They advocate for "on-shoring" or " backshoring"-not as a protectionist trade policy-but as a strategic move designed to conserve a market (namely, U.S. consumers.)

Come a 1-2 years of meltdown and conspiracy theorists start spinning their yarn...in the days when even likes of PWC and Deloitte have intensified their consulting and development work in INDIA and Citi selling its entire backoffice to TCS you and your ilk can continue to dream about BACKSHORING .. :rotfl:

Several major U.S. companies including Sallie Mae, Delta, Dell and the Home Shopping Network are moving some of the work that they had offshored back home

Afaik DELTA had a call centre in India so it is not relevant to the discussion at hand as for DELL well it registered a whopping 63% drop in its earnings in May 2009 :lol: so I don't see any reason to be surprised at its decision cut down its operations.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KarthikSan » 31 May 2009 07:41

Increasing/decreasing the number of H-1Bs is an internal matter of the US and IMHO nobody should comment/criticize their decision. Mr. Premji is suggesting that the USA is somehow devoid of talent and that only H-1Bs will provide the much needed talent. If his company or the Indian IT outsourcers are so great why he is worried about a reduction of a few thousand visas? Wouldn't they be getting the business automatically since the US does not have talent? His arguments do sound hollow considering that he runs a company whose business model is at the least partially if not completely based on exporting human resources to another country! Just my 2 paise.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby vsudhir » 31 May 2009 07:45

Markos is right.

Yamriki ITvity folks are hurting real bad. Cut them some slack, will ya, negi saar?

I believe globalization has gone on as far as it could go and will likely reverse course as the musharrafs of the rich (even if barely solvent) nations come under serious fire.

It is no secret that the inflation adjusted incomes for the majority of the US workforce (manufacturing jobs, blue collars, low end service jobs) have not risen at all since at least the early 80s. Disparity is rising. But the folks who benefited from globalization (the MNCs, the banks, the powers that be) continue to get bailed out and $$trillions in taxpayer monies to further leverage and manipulate the markets with. When GOTUS gave in to their demands of daylight robbery, what are the odds the same GOTUS and COTUS will go beyond sound and light shows in hurting their globalization profits?

Voices of late have gone shrill because the ITvity (vocal and white collar) sector fell victim to globalization whereas media duly buried the pleas of the boor blue collareds. For all their guffawing about PRC's artificially maintained exchange rate, can't see what the US has been able to do other than to try to inflate its way out of debt in the process putting trust in the USD itself at stake.

So yes, negi bhai, take a chill pill. Don't even appear to get upset. Acknowledge that Sri sri markus may have a pointed pointy point somewhere.

As for calling premji names, why not? Its a free speeched free mkt after all. Each to his/her/its own!

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 31 May 2009 10:35

^ Sudhir gaaru I aint no beneficiary of H1B vijja and nor am I associated with Wipro so nothing personal in this for me , however that does not mean oracalites get a license to make blanket statements , markus has been doing just that.

Yamriki ITvity folks are hurting real bad. Cut them some slack, will ya, negi saar?
Where did I make any remarks against any such American ITVITY corp or individual ?

Btw can you please elaborate on 'Markus is right' ? he has made many claims .


I believe globalization has gone on as far as it could go and will likely reverse course as the musharrafs of the rich (even if barely solvent) nations come under serious fire.
Sir I think above is a completely different topic and moreover I am no economy fundoo to even comment on it.

It is no secret that the inflation adjusted incomes for the majority of the US workforce (manufacturing jobs, blue collars, low end service jobs) have not risen at all since at least the early 80s. Disparity is rising. But the folks who benefited from globalization (the MNCs, the banks, the powers that be) continue to get bailed out and $$trillions in taxpayer monies to further leverage and manipulate the markets with. When GOTUS gave in to their demands of daylight robbery, what are the odds the same GOTUS and COTUS will go beyond sound and light shows in hurting their globalization profits?

Voices of late have gone shrill because the ITvity (vocal and white collar) sector fell victim to globalization whereas media duly buried the pleas of the boor blue collareds. For all their guffawing about PRC's artificially maintained exchange rate, can't see what the US has been able to do other than to try to inflate its way out of debt in the process putting trust in the USD itself at stake.

The problem is US became a economic superpower riding this very 'Globalisation' and now that the engine has stalled people are trying to find faults with the very engine that got them this far.


As for calling premji names, why not? Its a free speeched free mkt after all. Each to his/her/its own!

Premji and likes are smart businessmen who again did what any businessman does i.e. make profit while working within the legal framework we all have differences but then if calling names constitutes free speech I wouldn't have been banned a coupla months ago from BRF :D , Amrika bahadur came up with this funda of Globalisation as at one time they were producing in surplous while their consumption was struggling to keep pace with the former ; they forced closed markets like India and even PRC to open and now that Chipanda has them by balls and Yindoos too have taken charge of ITVITY bandwagon people are suddenly crying foul.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 31 May 2009 21:51

Accenture seems to be hiring, there was good crowd for a walk in @ rmz ecospace last week.

also IBM is currently hiring big here per a source we met.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby pgbhat » 31 May 2009 22:25

^^^
Singha-saar good news :D . I am aiming for big blue :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 31 May 2009 22:40

Yes IBM is hiring in INDIA but afaik its the global services division .

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SRoy » 31 May 2009 23:50

yup hiring has started.

>>

there is a breed of desi a$$ lickers, that got plum posting all over north america and europe. every trick in the book was applied.

while we sdre's sweated here in India, these buggers wined and dined with goras, threw yum bee ya jargons at us sdre's during midnight (india time) conference calls.

well lot of us have left the trenches, survived battles and made it to management. now the knives are being sharpened.

these a$$ lickers are slinking back to desh and shall have their a$$e$ kicked and those who beg and survive will be made to negotiate domestic deals with paan chewing babus inside dark and smelly gubmint offices.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby pgbhat » 01 Jun 2009 00:18

^^^
:rotfl:
calm down SRoy babu.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2009 08:41

HP india seems to be another co where quite a few managed to get plum phoren postings during good times.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby markos » 01 Jun 2009 09:04

Premji has been propagating half-truths and lies about the talent for some-time. He claims that the annual "talent" requirement is around 120,000 engineers out of which US can produce only 70,000.

Premji's claims
http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... oversy.htm

(It is interesting to read the reactions/comments in rediff following the article, shows how many readers buy Premji's specious arguments on "talent" and the reputation of his company)

I checked DOL website on the outlook for Computer related occupations and following was the projected job growth from 2006-2016

http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco1002.htm#comp
Computer Scientists/DBA: 200,000
Programmers: -18,000
Software Engg: 324,000
Support Specialists: 155,000
System Analysts: 146,000

Total: 807,000


This translates to an annual growth rate of 80,000 per year. Considering this estimate was as of 2006, and over 200,000 IT jobs are lost in the last couple of years, the net job growth even at the projected rate could come down to about 60,000 per year, which could be met by the talent from US universities itself, as by Premji's own admission US universities produce around 70,000.

Also the recent news suggests that undergrad enrollment is rising for comp. sci. major in US universities, punching another hole in Premji's theory on "talent" shortage.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/glo ... =215900774

This is why I described Premji as a snake-oil salesman peddling lies to fool the gullible.

I am yet to see an answer on the % of americans/PR in Wipro's (or TCS or INFY) workforce in US. That will clearly show if Indian outsources practice discrimination or whether they even looked for talent in US.

I remember a few years back a CIO making a remark that Indian outsourcers should start hiring more local talent (I believe the comment was made at a NASSCOM event). With their infinite GREED they wouldn't care for such advise at that time which is why Durbin/Grassley is required today.

Another gem from Premji is as follows
Few of the people who come here on H1B visa are here for more than 18 months. They're here to do a specific job for which their presence is required. If the job can be done by an American, we'll hire an American. It doesn't cost us more to hire an American :rotfl: :rotfl:


There are plenty of american IT contractors who work on contracts much shorter than 18 months. So no one familiar with IT contracting is going to buy this type of ridiculous arguments.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 01 Jun 2009 09:32

^ I will try to answer a few of the above ..



This translates to an annual growth rate of 80,000 per year. Considering this estimate was as of 2006, and over 200,000 IT jobs are lost in the last couple of years, the net job growth even at the projected rate could come down to about 60,000 per year, which could be met by the talent from US universities itself, as by Premji's own admission US universities produce around 70,000.


1. Speaking of the number of jobs in US in 2008.
below are the numbers gathered from I-94 .

The report said Indian nationals accounted for 157,726 (37.8 per cent) of the 409,619 H-1B Admissions in the US in 2008. In actual figures, this is a drop of about 3,000 as compared to 2007 when 157,613 Indian citizens were admitted to the US on H-1B visas. In 2006 the figure was 125,717.

157,726 Indians visiting US in 2008 I assume at least 100,000 came on a genuine need basis (I am leaving the rest for folks to account for all sort of anomalies ...).So there is definetly some disconnect between the job loss and the number of folks coming on H1B only from India.


2. 70,000 grads from US universities .

Markos are you sure that all of these CS grads will take up the kind of the jobs which constitute the Outsorcing/IT industry ? And btw just check how many of those 70,000 are Indian students who again will need a H1B .

3. I am yet to see an answer on the % of americans/PR in Wipro's (or TCS or INFY) workforce in US

Ok I do not have the numbers but as a safe guess it is not even 10 % afaik.But the question is will an avergae American be willing to join any of the above ? .I am pretty sure it costs more to file for a VISA and make arrangements for one's ( dependents if any ) travel from India . There is no discrimination angle here its only about 'COST'.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2009 09:39

there are apparently indian centers in south america where 100s of locals are working. its also a bit hard to get volunteers to work in places medelin, colombia :mrgreen: due to
language difficulties and perceived tougher conditions there.

imho amirkhan should completely stop the H1 visa program. this will ensure the giant vacuum for worldwide talent finally falls silent. with all top talent remaining mostly in Yindia,
the benefits will be massive and we will have chisco/hp/eyebeeyem/msft falling all over themself to open even bigger setups here to suck up all the "10 CPI types" roaming at street level.

they should also cancel all under filing green cards and pack off all GC holders back to desh.

this will also ensure a recovery in blr housing market :twisted:


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