Indian IT Industry

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A Sharma
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby A Sharma » 15 Nov 2008 18:36

Quantum leap

India is the new IT research hub
By Abhinav Singh
The educational qualifications of Ranjita Bhagwan are nothing less than impressive. With a B.Tech. in computer science from IIT Kharagpur, a postgraduate degree and a Ph.D from the University of California, San Diego, she could easily have joined any prestigious research firm in the US. But after a brief stint with IBM Research in the US, she opted for Microsoft Research lab in Bangalore. "The exposure is on par with the best research in the world," says Bhagwan.

So attractive is the high-end research and development scenario in the Indian IT sector that a reverse brain drain is underway. And it is not a case of offshore research teams supporting their onsite counterparts in the west. From ideation and conceptualisation to end-to-end designing, the entire product development cycle now happens in India. Many Indian R&D teams even have the ownership of products developed for different companies. Indian researchers would soon hold patent rights for their products; something unimaginable a few years ago.

The Bangalore lab is one of Microsoft's only five such facilities in the world. It carries out high-end research in computer science. A member of the mobility and networking systems group at the lab, Bhagwan explores how mobile phones can act as sensors to detect different scenarios such as traffic conditions. Indrani Medhi, another young researcher, is involved in the designing of computers for first-time users and illiterate people. She joined the lab after her master's in design from the Illinois Institute of Technology, Chicago.

In addition to the lab in Bangalore, Microsoft has an R&D centre in Hyderabad with 1,500 researchers-its largest outside the US. The centre focuses on research in product development. "A team of 300 people was involved in the development of key features of Vista, the latest version of the Windows operating system, and the same team is now working on Windows 7, the next version of Windows which will be released soon," says Srini Koppolu, corporate vice-president, Microsoft India Development Center.
The Bangalore lab has seven different research groups that focus on different aspects of computer science research, such as algorithms to handle datasets, cryptography (security and applied mathematics), multilingual systems and technology for the emerging markets. "Initially, when the centre started operating in 2005, it had only four research groups but the number has gone up to seven now," says Kentaro Toyama, assistant managing director of the lab.

Networking major Cisco's R&D facility in Bangalore has around 2,400 engineers. The company's largest research centre outside the US, it holds complete research ownership of some of its high-end switching products meant for the global market. "The Indian facility has grown from a team extension mode to an ownership of component model to a centre of excellence in several technology areas over the last 10 years. It has generated over 110 US patents, with another 400 in the pipeline. We work on several key international deals with sales teams, partners and customers on defining solutions and architecture," says Aravind Sitaraman, managing director of Cisco Development Organisation, India.

Amit Phadnis, a researcher at the centre, has filed more than 30 patents in broadband networking and 10 of them have been issued in his name. He earned his engineering degree from NIT Allahabad and did postgraduation in electronics at IISc. Bangalore. "I have got immense exposure at Cisco's R&D centre in India," says Phadnis.

India's growing reputation as an R&D centre is evident. Almost all IT majors have, or are planning, research facilities in the country. The global operations of AMD, the processor manufacturing giant, have been receiving significant contributions from its India Engineering Centre in Bangalore. Established in 2004, the centre has a software division and a semiconductor division that works on processor technologies. "I had a short stint at the AMD lab in Texas, but the work being carried out by the India Engineering Centre is purely cutting edge and the exposure here is truly amazing. Here I am developing chipsets, which go into the device drivers," says Ravindra Babu, who has been involved in research focused on performance analysis and optimisation of processors.

The microprocessor design team at the India Engineering Centre has been involved in designing a significant part of the microprocessors that were released by AMD in markets such as Barcelona and Shanghai. "Microprocessor design is the most complex design being commercially sold, and it takes 2 to 3 years for our team to design and verify one single design," says Karthik Muthusamy, general manager, AMD India Engineering Centre.

The Indian R&D sector has no dearth of success stories. Dipankar Sharma, a researcher at the IBM software labs in Bangalore, is working on providing green technology for IBM systems and servers. He has filed 30 patents in energy management in server systems. Sharma's group is one of the very few in IBM working on green technologies. Earlier, he had played a key role of enabling large IBM systems to run on Linux open source platform. Deepak Srinivasa, another passionate inventor at IBM, has 10 patent filings. "I have filed patents in the field of computational biology, software metamodelling and computer graphics," says Srinivasa. He filed his first patent within five months of joining the lab. The facility is IBM's largest software development centre outside the US.

A visible feature of the IT research centres in India is their size. Many of them have thousands of researchers. Take the case of Philips Innovation Campus in Bangalore. It is the electronic giant's largest research centre in the world. "The work at the centre is multi-disciplinary in nature as the development work spans across a portfolio of products that Philips offers in the global market. All the software which has been developed for the different Philips products has been touched upon by the Philips Innovation Campus," says S. Bhaskaran, senior director. Software for the company's set-top box and animal scanner has been developed by the team in Bangalore.

Many of these research centres are keen on working with premier technical institutes in the country to encourage research. Some have tie-ups with IITs, IISc. and other engineering institutes for internship programmes so that they can create a pool of researchers in India. Besides creating top-notch job opportunities, these R&D centres have helped create a strong image for India as a global research hub. With more high-value work coming to the country, the research environment is all set to flourish.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2008 18:45

Vipul, is this for selective 'low performers' , for some unfortunate groups or to all employees :eek: ?

people can adjust lifestyles to a 25% reduction in take home, but 50% is a total slash to
the gut with a sharp knife.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby CalvinH » 15 Nov 2008 18:57

Yup...it was TCS alright. They seem to be a bit of GoI chums owing to their tata-power linage which has done lots of work for DRDO/Defence


You forget that they accquired CMC way back in 2001 which was a PSU and used to be the preferred contractor for all Govt/Defence related IT work. TCS bought it precisely for these accounts.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SwamyG » 15 Nov 2008 18:57

Nayak wrote:The desire to look good at every quarter-end and allowing the MBA-wallas to dictate the terms has brought this upon the IT-cos. There is absolutely no encourage given towards product innovation. Managers are happy having code-coolies churning out lines and lines of mediocre code and sucking up to the gora manager.

Sorry for the rant.

I often here from fellow desis in USA on the poor quality of desi programmers working from India. I say, if you treat them as coolies, they will provide you only that kind of service.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vipul » 15 Nov 2008 19:44

Singha,

From the business-standard.com

India’s second-largest information technlogy services provider, Infosys Technologies, has issued letters to its employees stating they could opt for a one-year sabbatical to engage themselves in philanthropic activities. They would continue to draw 50 per cent of their salary during the period. Infosys crossed the 100,000-employee mark in India in the quarter ended September 30, 2008.

The company said that while the move may have coincided with the global financial turmoil and slowing growth rates of IT firms, it should be perceived as a pure voluntary act by employees who are prompted by altruistic motives and inspired by the example of its chairman and chief mentor, NR Narayana Murthy.

The employees, an internal memo said, need to be on the company rolls for at least two consecutive years before they are eligible for the offer and a panel comprising senior members of the Infosys leadership team will decide each case. “This policy will promote volunteerism among employees and we believe that the value and benefits arising from it will have an impact on community, the employees and ultimately, the company,” it said.

Sources said that the policy came into force only a few days back and the company is working out the finer points like whether the employees will be given any salary or emolument during the sabbatical. However, it is understood that the company is planning to pay some amount of the salary, while the rest the employees can earn from the NGO they are working for.(Translation 50% of the salary pay will only be for the high-performers, others will get less or none at all. )

An Infosys spokesperson confirmed the development: “We introduced this policy almost two months back, which allows the employees to go on up to one year of sabbatical to engage in philanthropic activities. All the employees have been communicated the policy internally.” When asked how much the employees will be paid during that time, the spokesperson said they will be given 50 per cent of the salary, while the other half will be given by the respective NGOs they work with.

“It’s a part of Narayana Murthy’s desire to give back to the society, which is driven by the fact that many employees quit their jobs to pursue philanthropic activities. This would give such employees an option to pursue their hobby while still continuing with the jobs, even if they will be paid a small amount by the company. The employees can go out with a cut in their salaries, even though the final details are being worked out by the company,” a source close to the development told Business Standard.

Infosys has a good deal of exposure to the sectors which have been worst hit by the current global economic meltdown such as banking and financial services, telecom and retail. In the last quarter, the company had announced that some of its clients in their sectors are coming back to re-negotiate. In a recent report, brokerage house CLSA had forecast that Infosys might miss its dollar revenue guidance for the third quarter, and may even post a sequential fall in the quarter.

The CLSA report also acknowledged that the flow of IT deals from the BFSI segment has “worsened substantially” and that long-term deals are being offered on “very tough terms”, thus putting pricing under serious threat as customers play one vendor against the other.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vipul » 15 Nov 2008 20:18

Newsreport of India American CEO of Tech Firm in california killed with 2 others by a recently laid off employee. :shock:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Muppalla » 15 Nov 2008 20:21

SwamyG wrote:
Nayak wrote:The desire to look good at every quarter-end and allowing the MBA-wallas to dictate the terms has brought this upon the IT-cos. There is absolutely no encourage given towards product innovation. Managers are happy having code-coolies churning out lines and lines of mediocre code and sucking up to the gora manager.

Sorry for the rant.

I often here from fellow desis in USA on the poor quality of desi programmers working from India. I say, if you treat them as coolies, they will provide you only that kind of service.


As though most of the desi programmers here are of good quality. This is not true at all. Bad programmers and good programmers are there everywhere(vilayati desi or shudh desi) and the statements have no statistics to back up. It is just percieved notion and also it involves some insecurity+agend based propaganda.

This is the psychological disorder of desis and we have to live with for one more generation.
Last edited by Muppalla on 15 Nov 2008 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2008 20:22

inspired by the example of its chairman and chief mentor, NR Narayana Murthy.

philantrophy is easy when one has 1500cr of stock options. even his wife has 700cr and
kids 300cr each, he has the least and can pretend to be a humble 'son of the soil' I guess.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2008 20:24

Silicon Valley, Nov 15 (PTI) An Indian-American CEO of a semiconductor company was shot dead along with two other persons by a laid-off employee of the firm in northern California, police said.

Sid Agrawal, the chief executive officer of SiPort Inc, the company's vice president of operations Brian Pugh and an unidentified woman was killed when several rounds were fired on the premises of the firm in Santa Clara yesterday.

Police said investigators are searching for Jing Hua Wu, 47, in connection with the shooting.

Jing worked as a lead product test engineer for the four-year-old firm, media reports here said. Police said he had recently been laid off from the company and investigators are exploring that as a possible motive in the shooting.

It is believed that a handgun was used in the shooting, a police official told reporters.

Police released a description of the vehicle in which Jiang is believed to have fled and launched a manhunt for him.

According to his biography in the company's website, Agrawal had more than 25 years of experience at startup and established high-technology companies, including at Adobe, Intel and Bell Labs.

He held a degree in Electrical Engineering from IIT-Kanpur, an MS degree from Southern Illinois University and an MBA from the University of Chicago. PTI

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Raja Bose » 16 Nov 2008 02:59

SwamyG wrote:I often here from fellow desis in USA on the poor quality of desi programmers working from India. I say, if you treat them as coolies, they will provide you only that kind of service.


You hit it right on the mark. I had the opportunity to see first hand the shoddy quality of work coming from the Indian teams (mainly Bangalore based) for a certain cellphone company. So I also had misgivings about the talent working in the desi offices. Then after a while I realized that it is not a case of 'poor quality' in desh but rather the constant grind of being treated like coolies with impossible deadlines. Nothing sounds worse than being told on Friday night by your desi manager who has been ordered by videshi manager to complete 700 test cases in the next 48 hours...this incident I saw 1st hand. The person in videsh who was supposed to execute those tests got sick so his US manager just did the most convenient thing to still meet the deadline....fobbed its off on the 'desi coolies' in India. :evil:

This kind of cr@p coupled with desi managers' tendency to suck up to videshi managers and claim that they can get the job done even faster to earn brownie points.....is enough to make any individual having even the highest level of talent to burn out and produce shoddy work. :x

Another incident occurred when the university I was studying at was deciding whether to acquire a certain technology from this same co. (it is part of a commercial auto telematics solution currently). The team which developed this was in desh so a teleconference was setup so that I could discuss the tech details and evaluate if this was something our lab wanted. True to form the telecon got setup giving preference to videshi times so I just waltzed in at 9:30am while the manager and 3 senior devs in desh had to do the telecon after a hard day's work and that too with a lowly graduate student (me!). I could tell from their voices that they were dog tired (and probably pissed after learning I was only a graduate student...not some university higher-up!!) so I finished the telecon as quickly as I reasonably could.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Raja Bose » 16 Nov 2008 03:06

A Sharma wrote:Quantum leap

India is the new IT research hub
By Abhinav Singh
The educational qualifications of Ranjita Bhagwan are nothing less than impressive. With a B.Tech. in computer science from IIT Kharagpur, a postgraduate degree and a Ph.D from the University of California, San Diego, she could easily have joined any prestigious research firm in the US. But after a brief stint with IBM Research in the US, she opted for Microsoft Research lab in Bangalore. "The exposure is on par with the best research in the world," says Bhagwan.


This lady was one of my friend's juniors at IIT-KGP. Coincidentally I was in the process of joining the group she worked for at Watson before they froze hiring. More coincidentally the research she is engaged in currently (as per the article) is similar to what the group (in another research lab) I am going to join does...world is a small place in so many ways! :D

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 16 Nov 2008 09:46

Singha wrote:Vipul, is this for selective 'low performers'

These are the stuff which remains vague in every company. Categorise some one as low performer (using what benchmark?) and the boot him out. This may be a rumour, but I have heard of stories in which employee was sacked because his previous company was black-listed for fraudulent practises. This was when the employee had joined and worked in the current organisation for nearly 3-4 years. And to add insult to injury his relieving letter does mention that he has got some sort of a 'dishonorable discharge'.

Raja Bose wrote:This kind of cr@p coupled with desi managers' tendency to suck up to videshi managers and claim that they can get the job done even faster to earn brownie points.....

Full marks !! Very rarely I have seen managers who are an exceptions to this Indian IT practise (yes, there are exceptions but very few, I feel). Add to it there is also trend that working odd hours is considered some sort of a point to prove that the developer is doing some serious work. I have seen people making it a point to their friends that working 24/7 is a must as he is doing some mission critical work. More than a nuisance this is taken as a big achievement. :lol:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SwamyG » 16 Nov 2008 10:08

Added to that in the cases that I have seen or heard, the Indian team is not given the full picture either. I had participated in video conferences with Indian teams, where they would be attending the conference at ungodly hours. But I also feel it is some kind of generational thing, we need to have at least one generation of computer science and engineering graduates pass through before when folks enter this industry because of passion and interest. The quality will get ingrained and the systems thinking will set in.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby AkshayM » 16 Nov 2008 10:42

I was responsible for small team in India. I explicitly would ask them to give their deadlines. And then add buffer to it. Luckily team was very efficient and senior so I didn't need to look over the shoulder. I also gave them full picture. Again luckily they were expecting full picture and ask questions. Most of the conf calls were US nights so it was regular working hours for them. I remember starting after 9pm and would end around mid night. I would be really thirsty after the call typically. Bottom line it all depends and we cannot generally generalize :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 16 Nov 2008 10:55

I believe the folks back in offshore (desh) deserve some credit for having to work off hours just to accommodate their clients and teams here in massa, Infact that is what offshore-onsite model is all about.

As far as programming skills are talked about , I would any day pick the lot from offshore not because they are special or work 12+ hours everyday , but for the simple reason that there is COMPETITION back in desh .

I know people who come here on H1/transfers are from the same lot back in desh but gradually the lack of competition makes one complacent , add to that there is a lot of unnecessary chai-biskoot sessions in the name of design reviews/ strategic planning , likes of IBM,Accenture,Cap-Gemini and even Oracle have offshored most of their development work
they all maintain a lean team for interacting with business and undertaking the high level design , offshore takes it on from there on .Coming to the interviews , these are far more rigorous in desh , they will actually make you write code with a pen and paper (reason being folks in massa trust what is written in the CV and do not cross check as rigorously back in desh ,also final interview in desh is in person (no masquerading) and one might be asked to write the code on paper ) .For fresher entry you have to go through at least 3 rounds of interviews to make it to Google , and after that they prepare a country wide merit list and chosen one's are further screened in Hyderabad at least this was the case in 2007.

If one surveys the areas like Chennai,Bangalore and Hyderabad you will find far more certified professionals in any IT VITY domain as compared to here in massa.

My examples are anecdotal but so are everyone's fwiw .

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Avinash R » 16 Nov 2008 13:05

IT Ministry gives nod to set NIXI hub in Ahmedabad
http://www.livemint.com/2008/11/1610043 ... set-N.html

Ahmedabad will be the seventh city in the country to get the hub of a national internet exchange

Posted: Sun, Nov 16 2008. 10:04 AM IST
Ahmedabad: Ministry of Communication and Information Technology has given a nod to set up a hub of the National Internet Exchange of India (NIXI) in Ahmedabad, a press release issued from the Gujarat Government said here today.

“Ahmedabad becomes the seventh city in the country that is getting the hub of a national internet exchange,” the release said.
It added that “The union government has already approved such hubs for Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai while it has given approval to Hyderabad, Ahmedabad and Banglore in the present round.”

In Ahmedabad, the hub has already become operational at GNFC info tower here.

The NIXI-HUB would restrict the wastage of bandwidth in local traffic, which would have impact on the economy in foreign exchange and it will be beneficial for internet services providers in the state as it would reduce bandwidth expenses, the government release said.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Raj Malhotra » 16 Nov 2008 13:58

I think all the 5 IT biggies in India being TCS, Infosys, Wipro, Satyam, HCL are basically into Labor arbitrage. Do we have any major mid size innovative IT companies??

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Avinash R » 16 Nov 2008 16:34

Killer of Indian American CEO arrested
http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20081116/89 ... rrest.html

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Muppalla » 16 Nov 2008 18:59

negi wrote:I believe the folks back in offshore (desh) deserve some credit for having to work off hours just to accommodate their clients and teams here in massa, Infact that is what offshore-onsite model is all about.

As far as programming skills are talked about , I would any day pick the lot from offshore not because they are special or work 12+ hours everyday , but for the simple reason that there is COMPETITION back in desh .

I know people who come here on H1/transfers are from the same lot back in desh but gradually the lack of competition makes one complacent , add to that there is a lot of unnecessary chai-biskoot sessions in the name of design reviews/ strategic planning , likes of IBM,Accenture,Cap-Gemini and even Oracle have offshored most of their development work
they all maintain a lean team for interacting with business and undertaking the high level design , offshore takes it on from there on.


You are absolutely right.

Let me add few more points.
(1) There is a huge element of insecurity for substantial number of folks(desi+videshi types) in massa land and they observe/analyze the offshore desis with extra convex lens. Most of the times every small thing is projected as a crisis.
(2) Most of the big companies here write the Requirements here do a shoddy job in 50% of the times and expect a successful product back from India.
(3) The outsourcing model where the delivery model includes end-to-end implementation are more succesful as compared to those project that has partial involvement of folks from massa land.

This is my observation.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2008 19:08

I have observed two sets of desis in Massaland. one tends to co-operate and be extra helpful with the real card-carrying desis in desh. the other hand actively ignores and even tries to hinder desi efforts and be more mutu than mutu.

but then again, the same I have observed in the americans there.

so I guess some are going to be a problem no matter what their background.

when the center of gravity shifts, all these unhelpful will also fall
in line. in my co the top management has mandated that odd timings for conf calls should be equally shared by all parties and not just india. a lot of stuff is recorded and available online as
video-on-demand so one neednt miss anything. I have also given
talks here where a full tv crew is called in and records it for
later vod archival.

but I realize the power equation could be skewed in favour of
client in project based cos.

it depends a lot on top management which posture they adopt.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Karkala Joishy » 16 Nov 2008 20:51

Whats with this "relieving letter"? We don't have any thing like this in the US. What's the significance? Looks like this can make/break someone.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby John Snow » 16 Nov 2008 21:02

Muppalla wrote:
negi wrote:I believe the folks back in offshore (desh) deserve some credit for having to work off hours just to accommodate their clients and teams here in massa, Infact that is what offshore-onsite model is all about.

As far as programming skills are talked about , I would any day pick the lot from offshore not because they are special or work 12+ hours everyday , but for the simple reason that there is COMPETITION back in desh .

I know people who come here on H1/transfers are from the same lot back in desh but gradually the lack of competition makes one complacent , add to that there is a lot of unnecessary chai-biskoot sessions in the name of design reviews/ strategic planning , likes of IBM,Accenture,Cap-Gemini and even Oracle have offshored most of their development work
they all maintain a lean team for interacting with business and undertaking the high level design , offshore takes it on from there on.


You are absolutely right.

Let me add few more points.
(1) There is a huge element of insecurity for substantial number of folks(desi+videshi types) in massa land and they observe/analyze the offshore desis with extra convex lens. Most of the times every small thing is projected as a crisis.
(2) Most of the big companies here write the Requirements here do a shoddy job in 50% of the times and expect a successful product back from India.
(3) The outsourcing model where the delivery model includes end-to-end implementation are more succesful as compared to those project that has partial involvement of folks from massa land.

This is my observation.


Having worked in ITvity for reasonable time, under Ross Perot regime, to cap gemini, to Cooper & Lybrand, and very recently Infosys, I think I may venture to disagree with some aspects discussed here.


The domain and business process knowedge for desi guys in the project (of fshored) is closer to less than satisfactory in many instances. (there are and will be exceptions).

In addition the Indian companies including Infosys of short changing by selling the project with some bright guys to win the bid and then bring in green horns moving forward to maximize profit, (kinda sorta bait and switch).

Improper requirements are an area of eternal disputes like Kashmir, evrybody is all at Yellow sea!

Having programed in COBOL (MVS BI Polar maainframe ) with 128 K memory, PLI Fortran, VSAM,(KSDS, RRDS etc) IMS DB2, Univac, Digital VAX VMS I say that the absence of conceptual
understanding programming in many MCA candidates is appaling to say the least. (accross many university students)

I am in desh talking to many candidates out of curiosity , if I bare it most of the crap will fall on desi feet of mine. so I will shut up.
Last edited by John Snow on 16 Nov 2008 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby krishnan » 16 Nov 2008 21:28

Karkala Joishy wrote:Whats with this "relieving letter"? We don't have any thing like this in the US. What's the significance? Looks like this can make/break someone.


Basically a letter stating you worked there for some many years things like that. Mast companies use to do background check on you

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SwamyG » 16 Nov 2008 21:39

I have observed two sets of desis in Massaland. one tends to co-operate and be extra helpful with the real card-carrying desis in desh. the other hand actively ignores and even tries to hinder desi efforts and be more mutu than mutu.

Desis can also be sliced and diced into 3 other categories 1)Who think all about Desh is great (they are the bullish variety). 2) Who think all about Desh is pathetic (the bearish kind. they have lost hope, and each time you point the nation marching, they point out all the negative points) 3)Folks who have no time for any of the things, just mind their life and business. Long words short, some desis think desh is the superme, some think desh is inferior and has a long way to go, some who are neutral or who think desh has both pros and cons.

It does not help when horror stories are repeated as the gospel.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 16 Nov 2008 22:28

John Snow wrote:Having worked in ITvity for reasonable time, under Ross Perot regime, to cap gemini, to Cooper & Lybrand, and very recently Infosys, I think I may venture to disagree with some aspects discussed here.

The domain and business process knowedge for desi guys in the project (of fshored) is closer to less than satisfactory in many instances. (there are and will be exceptions).

In addition the Indian companies including Infosys of short changing by selling the project with some bright guys to win the bid and then bring in green horns moving forward to maximize profit, (kinda sorta bait and switch).

Sir jee I believe discussion was about the coding and development skills of folks back in desh.

Problem with including domain/business knowledge is that it comes with time and experience , one cannot expect a fresh Btech in desh to know how DOW works or say what is the lifecycle of a DRUG, however given the requirements and specifications he will be able to crunch the code for a specific application.

The guys here in massa who have been working for years will have acquired the business/domain expertise , for this part of the work cannot be offshored . And your Infy example proves that.And why Infy, IBM, Accenture and Oracle are no exceptions to the above, after all onsite-offshore delivery model heavily relies on the fact that experienced guys with strong business knowledge interface with the business onsite and the rest of the team do the development in desh.

Improper requirements are an area of eternal disputes like Kashmir, evrybody is all at Yellow sea!

Yes thats is the case in almost every implementation. But that is independent of as to whether the work is offshored or not, for the requirements are collected onsite.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vikas » 16 Nov 2008 22:55

Add to it, there is an increasing trend by Indian companies to have couple of senior people on the projects surrounded by all green horns.
It is obvious the quality not only in terms of deliverable but also about communication would go down.
The folks in USA kind off believe that Offshore team need not know everything and still turn up with bug free product.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby John Snow » 16 Nov 2008 22:59

was about the coding and development skills of folks back in desh


There are hazaar code generators, de compilers etc , any programmer is not just programmer, (s)he is programmer analyst,

My humble request try this page of Cap Gemeni

http://cg.blueshift.com/RMSExtranet/Pro ... ation.aspx


here in this profile creation page cap gemini
if you select primary domain it will only (in the drop down box show the same choice)
say primary domain (PD) is health care then secondary domain is limited to PD Health care in the drop down box.

Now for the page(application) designer somebody told him that
no person can have more than one domain expertise
if so secondary domain drop down box is redundant
Having given an option of SD (secondary Domain)it is logical to ASS U ME that in principle some can be expert in more than one domain.
Then it is clearly a coding (bug) mistake,
How did it not get detected in testing?

Either tester does not have application domain knowledge or Meta data is missing. Ahh the requirements enigma again?

This is just an live wire example.

Test it on CAPGEMINI INDIA website.

There are many such bugs in that site (page) not giving an option to enter areacode for telephone as the javascript (I ASS U Me) is written to limit the number of digits....

Many more ( no free text boxes for answer other kind of options)

I will not post anymore on this subject.
Thanks for bearing with me also remove the sirjee because I worked for Ross Perot to N Murthy :((

I am simpleton Umrao John :mrgreen:
Last edited by John Snow on 16 Nov 2008 23:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Raja Bose » 16 Nov 2008 23:14

negi wrote:Coming to the interviews , these are far more rigorous in desh , they will actually make you write code with a pen and paper (reason being folks in massa trust what is written in the CV and do not cross check as rigorously back in desh ,also final interview in desh is in person (no masquerading) and one might be asked to write the code on paper ) .For fresher entry you have to go through at least 3 rounds of interviews to make it to Google , and after that they prepare a country wide merit list and chosen one's are further screened in Hyderabad at least this was the case in 2007.


negi,
I would disagree with the above observation. Based on my multiple experiences and everybody I know (friends, family, enemies) who has ever interviewed in Massa for a software dev job has had to write code on paper or more commonly on a whiteboard while explaining his/her thinking to the interviewer as he/she goes along. Ofcourse I am mainly talking about freshout college grad experience or ones with 1-3 years so maybe what you are saying is true for more experienced folks. hehe once I remember this guy from bill dada's (recently of jodhpur petromax fame) company made me write code for correcting image hue in a digital camera on the whiteboard :roll:

John Snow wrote:Having programed in COBOL (MVS BI Polar maainframe ) with 128 K memory, PLI Fortran, VSAM,(KSDS, RRDS etc) IMS DB2, Univac, Digital VAX VMS I say that the absence of conceptual
understanding programming in many MCA candidates is appaing to say the least. (accross many university students)


John Snow, you are one lucky dude! :mrgreen: You had the luxury of 128K memory whereas right now in year of our Lord 2008, I am now stuck working on a platform with 32K :((

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Muppalla » 17 Nov 2008 00:45

JS,

I can show the kind of sites that you are showing that are developed by pure massalanders. I guess the discussion is not about desis offshore are high quality than those in massaland. It is about calling Offshore desis are of low quality as compared to similar tribe in massaland.

I work in federal consulting area where no offshoring is allowed.

There are many dynamics involved such as:
(1) Mid level Massalanders try to save their space as they are thretened by cheaper ones
Here comes usage of convex lens and villification campaign
(2) Top level management see cost vs. "manageable quality"
For these folks, as long as the offshore ones provide maneagable quality then they are ok and are not going to listen to (1)
(3) Offshore Managers under pressure due to competition between Indian companies, they dance to anything that Massalanders say.
(4) The actual developers down the chain are exposed to pressures and managerial(massas vs, desis) egos and constantly reducing hourly rates by the clients.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby RamaY » 17 Nov 2008 03:33

Vipul wrote:Singha,

From the business-standard.com

India’s second-largest information technlogy services provider, Infosys Technologies, has issued letters to its employees stating they could opt for a one-year sabbatical to engage themselves in philanthropic activities. They would continue to draw 50 per cent of their salary during the period. Infosys crossed the 100,000-employee mark in India in the quarter ended September 30, 2008.

The company said that while the move may have coincided with the global financial turmoil and slowing growth rates of IT firms, it should be perceived as a pure voluntary act by employees who are prompted by altruistic motives and inspired by the example of its chairman and chief mentor, NR Narayana Murthy.

The employees, an internal memo said, need to be on the company rolls for at least two consecutive years before they are eligible for the offer and a panel comprising senior members of the Infosys leadership team will decide each case. “This policy will promote volunteerism among employees and we believe that the value and benefits arising from it will have an impact on community, the employees and ultimately, the company,” it said.




Not a bad idea if anyone drawing >5L/Yr (assuming >2 year service) to take this offer and go on a all-INDIA tour with their new spouse and participate in voluntary service.

It will be a good thing to see 10,000 Infosysians going around the nation offering community service. It will be a win-win offer. It will also make them aware of rest of India and its social/political issues first hand...

And it will also offer them real-time leadership training.

Wish I am in India and an Infosys employee for >2 yrs...

Disclaimer: It is very easy to advise others :D

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 17 Nov 2008 10:11

Karkala Joishy wrote:Whats with this "relieving letter"? We don't have any thing like this in the US. What's the significance? Looks like this can make/break someone.

It is a letter indicating that xyz have worked in the company in 'abc' profile for 'n' number of years. Generally it also mentions that all dues (for both parties) have been settled etc. Some sort of a formal closure of employmement with the company. Big IT companies insists on this letter, and some times even tax payment receipts. This is to ensure that what ever pay-scale the person said was correct. The "vegetable company" mentioned a couple of posts above does an active screening on this, and generally kicks out employees who have fudged such documents.

VikasRaina wrote:Add to it, there is an increasing trend by Indian companies to have couple of senior people on the projects surrounded by all green horns.

This I guess has become standard practise now-a-days in many companies :D. One thing it is used a measure for cost cutting. The joke is that this is a "win-win" situation for the company. Make up a team of one experienced resource (higher salary), with a lot of rookies (lower salaries). Tough dead lines are given. The result:-
1. The experienced resource works over-time, or just push the rookies to work harder and get the work done (company gets what it wants).
2. The experienced resource go bonkers, and decides to quit (company finds that one chap with a higher pay scale is out). A proper knowledge transfer is done and the better amongst the rookies take charge over the rest ;).

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby RamaY » 18 Nov 2008 09:45

AkshayM wrote:Bottom line it all depends and we cannot generally generalize :mrgreen:


I agree. I have been managing offshore (mainly India) teams of sizes upto 150+ (of course grouped into multiple teams) for the past 10+ years. I think it all boils down to project management skill - managing stakeholder expectations, both onsite and offshore.

If lead properly, Indian teams do miracles. We have a different work culture. Most of the Indian techies I worked with cannot work the American way (8AM – 5PM). They tend to come to work late, allocate some daytime to do household chores, and spend some extra time in the evenings to catch up with work.

Recognizing the varying work cultures and managing them effectively is an art. Many Indian and few American managers do this symphony eloquently. That is how Indian Outsourcing was proved and working wonders.

JMT.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 18 Nov 2008 14:09

RamaY wrote:Most of the Indian techies I worked with cannot work the American way (8AM – 5PM). They tend to come to work late, allocate some daytime to do household chores, and spend some extra time in the evenings to catch up with work.

This is also a problem for Indian techies themselves who prefer to work during the standard office hours. Because a large number of team mates turn up at irregular times, the folks who prefer to work the normal times also suffers :twisted: . I guess this problem was a direct result of bringing in the "flexi-time" (come and leave any time you want) concept which may work well out side India, but will lead to problems here. Many of the recruits don't have that sort of self discipline which makes flexi-times etc. work well.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2008 14:20

I work 8:30-4:30 and prefer doing core coding and testing during this slot.
but there is so much going on like other projects, study groups, complicated emails
to digest, parts of books to read I often end up working again from 9-11 or 9-12
on 3 days a week (I do it every alternate day to get better sleep).

8 hrs sure aint enough nowadays.

one friend of mine sits in office 10am - 11pm everyday to give company to
his boss then has a long drive home. he doesnt see his school going kid
on weekdays I guess. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Tanaji » 18 Nov 2008 14:51

The phenomenon of desi managers trying to suck up to the videshi one is not limited to desi managers alone. At this nameless company that I work for, we offshore a lot of our work to engineers in Mexico. The manager of the engineering team says "yes" to almost anything that you ask, even when I know it is not possible. The team there then works late nights to get it done.

I make it a point to ask the team members if they are comfortable with it and then set an acceptable date. The advantage is that when you really need something to be done ASAP, your job tends to be looked at a priority than the other requests :) Also helps if you take time to talk to the folks about their country, the tequila and the culture :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Dileep » 18 Nov 2008 15:06

There is life below the gorillas and Big5s.

Majority of the smaller outfits have a common model. One guy who have some contacts and exposure starts the company. He will get the work. Will have a couple of guys who are capable, but doesn't fit the Big5 type, leading. Then a bunch of Big5 rejects doing the heavy lifting. They will underquote, overcommit, cheat, steal, fake and glaze over to deliver the stuff. Things generally work. The customer never tests it, so they never finds the problems. He is happy if it "basically" works. They will place people with no knowledge onsite. It will take some time to figure out the truth. Then "If you are not happy with the resource, we will replace him!". Another guy show up.

There is billing fraud too. The guy in massa does the billing locally. The setup in India doesn't show any billing. Sometimes they don't even pay salary to the people.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2008 15:14

they also employ a lot of freshers as 'trainees' and pay a minimal stipend. the freshers
are unable to find job and need some experience and a break in the industry. sometimes
not even stipends are paid. thousands of people have entered the industry through this route and worked their way up after few yrs into the Big5....

I thank Allah and Zarathusthra for taking me to good colleges and giving me campus
job so I directly joined a good co(HSS) without this 'initial struggle'. the deep pile blue
carpets, the cubes, pyts, dilli billis, the famous (free) luncheon, late night cabs, priya
cinema on saturdays after free lunch and browsing in office...boy those were the days.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 18 Nov 2008 16:05

Singha wrote:they also employ a lot of freshers as 'trainees' and pay a minimal stipend. the freshers are unable to find job and need some experience and a break in the industry

Don't know if this trend still persists. 6-7 years back there used to be a thriving business in Bangalore, that was small software-shops whose sole purpose was to give experience certificates to just-out-of college MCA/B.Tech chaps. These people would be put in some minor project (or may not even that) and the firm gives them an experience certificate for a year or so. Some also did this purely for money. This small shop also provides other facilities like helping the candidate with basic round of verifications etc (they have a valid phone number and some one to pick up the phone and provide verifications).

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby sum » 18 Nov 2008 19:01

I thank Allah and Zarathusthra for taking me to good colleges and giving me campus
job so I directly joined a good co(HSS) without this 'initial struggle'. the deep pile blue
carpets, the cubes, pyts, dilli billis, the famous (free) luncheon, late night cabs, priya
cinema on saturdays after free lunch and browsing in office...boy those were the days.

HSS=?

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby SwamyG » 18 Nov 2008 19:33

I was never allowed to touch the family transistor as a young kid. It must be probably in my 9th or 10th that I started turning it on. And now my toddler does not even ask me permission before playing with the iPod touch. He plays with the calculator feature or youtube on it. He can turn on Wii like anybody else, attach the accessories to the remote.

Okay the point is, the next generation of programmers from the desh are going to be definitely better than the present crop. Why? Well it is opportunity and exposure that creates a passion in an individual. One often hears in USA how a father presented a 9yr or 11yr with his first computer. How the kid programmed something very early, or the different games he played on it. The system in USA is such that people have plenty of opportunities to not become a programmer. The ones that do, have some stuff in them. It is a generalization.

The Indian kids now have better opportunities,more exposure to electronic gadgets to develop an interest and passion. Some will go on to make national and international headlines.


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