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Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

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Yayavar
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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 03 Apr 2017 07:55

Fantastic run. Hopefully someone uploads the matches.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 03 Apr 2017 08:23

Final on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o09bX7XgkYY

Sindhu's improved since the Olympics. She almost toys with the World and Olympic champion in game 2, especially towards the end. Lots of points won by smartly attacking Marin's crossover area.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 03 Apr 2017 08:33

thx saar!

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 03 Apr 2017 20:56

Finally. Next stop should WC and the main contender will be the Chinese Taipei girl.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 03 Apr 2017 23:04

The Indians are their own worst enemies in badminton.
Sindhu played very well n the final. Together with Marin`s errors, she triumphed. The same player was absolutely poor in All England.
A classic case of disappointment is Srikanth.
He toyed with Axelsen, the mens singles champion this year, in the finals two years ago. Now he is losing in first or second rounds.
This year he lost one set under 10 to the same Axelsen. The mental conditioning needs to improve for the players to be more consistent.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 03 Apr 2017 23:36

I agree with you on that to an extent. With Srikanth, definitely. A tale of a potential Lin Dan successor gone off the rails. At his peak he was a joy to watch. He didn't just beat opponents - he almost humiliated them with his skill and court craft.

Sindhu on the other hand is making quantifiable progress. After all, it's she and not the All England champion who's an Olympic medalist (Marin won gold and Okuhara from Japan was bronze). She's also the only Indian to have multiple World Championship medals. The All Englands were once the big thing. But now the WC and Olympics are, and SSPs like China Open are more competitive. Sindhu has 2 WC bronze and an Olympic silver , and is reigning China Open champion. Plus two Uber Cup bronzes. All England just has a lot of mindshare in India because of Padukone and Gopichand, but I'd rather we won more China Opens.

China Open WS is in fact the most Chinese-dominated event. Only thrice in 26 years has any non Chinese won it, and Sindhu won it in 2016, and Saina in 2014 (same year Srikanth defeated Lin Dan to win it in MS). So I think Sindhu's doing ok. She's the player Saina wanted to be, but lacked the height and athleticism for. She could get more dominating like Marin was for a while, but she's making forward progress. Hopefully she'll make the WC final.

PS: Sindhu's win elevates her to World #2 behind the Taiwanese who won the All England, overtaking Marin and Sung.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 04 Apr 2017 02:09

Why do you say Sindhu is the player Saina wanted to be? She can't change the height and though not as athletic has her own resoluteness. She has been world number 1 with her capabilities. She is only 27 and might recover again. Sindhu is playing great and should go far. Height certainly seems to be an advantage - 5'10 vs 5'5.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 04 Apr 2017 02:45

Saina sometimes speaks about how she's not a natural athlete but wins through her grit. Too lazy to look up the reference, but I believe it was in an interview after her OG bronze. And of course, she speaks of how Chinese pick a physical template in their assembly line - girls have to be over 5'8 tall and have good reach, and are then put through their system to create finished products, and how she lacks that (she's 5'5 or 5'6 I think) and yet beats them.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Apr 2017 03:16

Saina played well imho. Both in all England as well as here in india Open. She has recovered well.
I disagree with this one -
" All England just has a lot of mindshare in India because of Padukone and Gopichand, but I'd rather we won more China Opens. "

This is not true. All England is one of the super series premier events. One of the big ones.
More importantly, It is the event that everyone prepares for, other than olympics of course. I would go on to say that AE is in fact more important for players than World Championships. You only need to look at player participation to judge that.
Few players miss all England, while almost everyone misses (deliberately), one or the other premier super series. Lee Chong Wei played AE this year with taped knee. For whatever reasons AE remains very important for all players.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 04 Apr 2017 03:43

I agree that AE is very important, and I know it's one of the SSPs. I think China Open is harder to win, and winning it matters more than AE these days.

From next year, there are three events that are being upgraded to SSPoP (premier of premier) - AE, China Open and Indonesia. We have a pretty good record in the latter two - Saina having won Indonesia twice and China once, while Sindhu's the reigning China Open winner. Too bad India Open doesn't get upgraded to SSP status anytime soon.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 04 Apr 2017 08:38

Suraj wrote:Saina sometimes speaks about how she's not a natural athlete but wins through her grit. Too lazy to look up the reference, but I believe it was in an interview after her OG bronze. And of course, she speaks of how Chinese pick a physical template in their assembly line - girls have to be over 5'8 tall and have good reach, and are then put through their system to create finished products, and how she lacks that (she's 5'5 or 5'6 I think) and yet beats them.


Yeah, she as both those disadvantages but grit or resoluteness took her to the top. She is 5'5 and Sindhu is 5'10.5

I read somewhere that 5'8'' was ideal height for badminton. Padukone is 6+ and so was Hansen I believe and Hartono. I assume the current champs are tall too.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 04 Apr 2017 08:39

In earlier times All England was considered equivalent to world championship..

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby amit » 04 Apr 2017 09:33

Suraj wrote:PS: Sindhu's win elevates her to World #2 behind the Taiwanese who won the All England, overtaking Marin and Sung.


Great game by Sindhu, I think she has the capacity to take Saina's mantle to the next level, much in the mold of how Tendulkar took Gavaskar's mantel forward.

However I think the competitor to watch out for is not Carolina Marin but Tai Tzu-Ying. This Taiwanese girl is like a cat the way she moves around the court effortlessly. I'm not saying Sindhu can't beat her but I think Tzu-Ying's game is better than Marin, plus she's younger than the Spanish player.

Take a look at Tzu's on court flexibility in her recent match against Sindhu in the Hong Kong Open:


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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Apr 2017 18:17

India Open is a complete Yonex sponsored tournament. It also has less prize money.
Badminton in India is still an `academy` oriented elite sports rather than a mass sport, in spite of increasing infrastructure and effluence.
The cabal led by Gupta, like in most other sports, has a vested interest in keeping it that way.
The poorer kids have to work in spite of the system rather than with help from it.
Shubhankar Dey, the bengal kid,who is doing well in low level international tournaments had to work through the benevolence of coaches to pursue badminton.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 04 Apr 2017 20:29

Can you tell us more about this Gupta person ? I assume he's one of those skeletons who's been in charge of the sport for decades ? Why no players rebellion to overthrow him ?

Amit: I agree about Tai Tzu-ying. She and the Thai girl Inthanon are both on the shorter side but have excellent court craft and big name wins. Inthanon is just as tall as Saina, while Tai is even shorter at 5'4.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 04 Apr 2017 21:42

I disagree. In the west it is academies that build players and then specialized training is given for talent so that they make the international cut. The other model is the Communist one which is not suitable for us. Today we have several quality academies in India producing international class players e.g. Gopinath has the Hyderabad academy, opened one recently near Noida and has been given land for a third in AP. Padukone has an academy in Bglore where Saina trains, Pawar in Mumbai, Lucknow has or is going to open one, Chennai has one. There are several lower level clubs all over India. That is pretty good for a country which has taken up the sport professionally for only 15 yrs. Are they producing international players? Yes, given the number of youngsters about to or are competing at the senior level e.g. we have had two junior world no 1 in the last few years in MS. Typically, in each division you will produce one or at best two world class player(s). Only the Chinese produce more. The day we have world class players in a majority of the division (only five available) we will become a badminton superpower like China. So overall we are doing very well and the sport is no longer dependent on one exceptional player like Padukone, Gopi or Saina.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 04 Apr 2017 23:22

The badminton scene in India has benefited from the involvement of past greats . Both Padukone and Gopichand have great academies . Vimal Kumar and Madhumita Bisht are both consistently seen at the sidelines in tracksuits as the coaches .

There are other racquet sports where we could have done the same , e.g. TT and squash . But badminton is the most prominent example of a group of former national and world level players helping to create an even more powerful group of world level players with unprecedented achievements - OG medals, WC finals, SSP wins by both men and women, even multiple Uber cup medals .

With stronger men's and mixed doubles teams we could make medal contention at Thomas cup and Sudirman cup too . It has grown to such a point that any Indian opponent is a dangerous challenge; even second stringers like Prannoy and Jayaram have beaten top 5 players more than once .

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 05 Apr 2017 04:27

European and Americans do not have the same manpower that we do. Their club and academy structures work for them. I also agree that Indian badminton has a good future. That is because of the increase in number of academies and encouragement from a new generation of parents.
My point is that it is still not a mass sport. Academies are and should be the ground to train talented players with potential. Not just those who have the money to pay the exorbitant fees.The smaller district units should be the grassroots which should throw up talents and who will eventually train in academies and turn into world beaters.
Who do we have right now. Sindhu`s parents were sportsperons themselves. So is the case with Saina. It is not common people`s kids who are playing in the academies.
Akhilesh Dasgupta is the BAI chief in India. He is/was a Rajya Sabha MP, supported by INC at first and then BSP I think. He has been at the helm of badminton affairs in India for last decade. The elections to most of the sports bodies is a farce. Badminton is no exception.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 05 Apr 2017 04:38

Badminton to me is inherently not a cheap sport. The shuttles are expensive and don't last. Likewise, the good racquets aren't cheap either. It's about on par with, or slightly cheaper than tennis, in terms of costs. It'll cost much more to play than cricket or especially football, that needs nothing more than one ball and some space.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Gus » 05 Apr 2017 07:04

is it just me or nobody saw how caroline is total paki?

she know sindhu has raised hands posture to receive serve, but she tries to sneak a service in before sindhu gets ready. towards the end, sindhu had to resort to actually putting palms open to signal she is not ready yet. at one point she was doing that whining passive aggressive thing with the ref as fell about this..

when it was all over, both players went their own way and came back to net like an afterthought to shake hands...

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 05 Apr 2017 07:10

Marin is famous for gamesmanship. She uses her loud theatrics and grunting and screaming to unsettle opponents. Pretty much behaves like an Aussie cricketer. Lots of articles about it after OG final, when she was criticized for that behavior while beating Sindhu. Her (mis)behavior is a common conversation topic on baddy forums.

IMHO she'll lose effectiveness as her opponent figure out her game and how to tune out her attitude, that initially unsettled everyone.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby GShankar » 05 Apr 2017 07:12

I also noted how sindhu gave the shuttle back in hand almost every time after a break of serve but marin quite often pushes the shuttle to the other half from where sindhu might have to serve.

All in all, could be plain pettiness or mind games..

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 05 Apr 2017 14:53

Marin is a good aggressive player. She shouts a lot and talks to herself but I have not seen her disrespecting her opponent.They also shout quite a lot in doubles. It is the nature of sport. I must admit here though that I am a fan of Marin`s game.
A lot of people dont like her because of her excessive shouting. Ratnachok Intanon in fact said that she shouts in her match against Marin because Marin does the same. Slyly.
The referee was intrusive. He was asking players to speed up. That was when the two unreturned serves were made. And pushing the shuttle from the net is quite common. It would take more effort to consciously think and push it to the other service court than advantages of doing so.
My two paise.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 05 Apr 2017 22:34

Bhuri,

India is headed for academies and professional leagues. A badminton or tennis or Squash player typically makes money only when he is in the top bracket. Others barely make any money. It is not for everyone. Just like IITs are not for everyone. A more spread out mass participation is good for popularity of the sport and for personal physical fitness. That must happen but has nothing to do with academies as these are specialized centers only for the best. I think Bhupathi and Ramesh Krishnan have tennis academies. Won't be surprised if Leander does the same. Even in cricket Sehwag has an academy and Phogat is asking for land to open a wrestling academy.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 05 Apr 2017 23:08

I think Marins trump card is being able to hit the shuttle as early as possible...from midcourt or forecourt using good anticipation she cuts off the angles and unsettles and keeps her opponent on the run or gets early points without needing long rallies. she also is deceptively fast mover, without looking fast.....

kind of like miloslav mecir used to be in his heydey

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 06 Apr 2017 21:28

/india at 101 FIFA football ranking. Highest in 20 yrs.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 07 Apr 2017 21:47

I did some google research on Bhupathi's tennis academy. It seems it was started in 2006 and they have 38 centers all over India with 10000 students. That is very good scale. How successful it becomes in producing top class players remains to be seen.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 08 Apr 2017 02:32

Imho, we will have to wait another generation for tennis winners. You need to be tall and strong to play this sport. Same for Football.
But, building up an infrastructure for the same is good.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 08 Apr 2017 02:50

Bhurishravas wrote:Imho, we will have to wait another generation for tennis winners. You need to be tall and strong to play this sport. Same for Football.
But, building up an infrastructure for the same is good.


Any sports left for SDREs? Only kirket but not pacers. All seem to be moving to TFTA requirements.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 08 Apr 2017 02:54

Check the Davis cup team. All south Indians and 6 plus. What is lacking is serve, power and stamina of the Euros. Skills we have.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby GShankar » 08 Apr 2017 03:01

Bhurishravas wrote:Imho, we will have to wait another generation for tennis winners. You need to be tall and strong to play this sport. Same for Football.
But, building up an infrastructure for the same is good.


Need to be more strong than tall. Of late, look at the japanese kid nishioka. Was a giant killer in indian wells 2017. Even nishikori (the other japanese) is not that tall.

But yes, need booming serves are a necessity.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 08 Apr 2017 03:06

Supratik wrote:Check the Davis cup team. All south Indians and 6 plus. What is lacking is serve, power and stamina of the Euros. Skills we have.


The Q was wrt 'tall' vs 'short'. Earlier discussion on badminton was tall Sindhu vs short Saina. Tall tennis players. Tall pacers.
Heck what will a normal desi do? South Indian has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 08 Apr 2017 03:14

People think only Punjabis, Haryanvis, Rajasthanis, etc are tall and physically well built and take naturally to sports. But that is not the case.Here you have four guys from the south who are 6 plus and playing a very physically demanding sport. Genetics has a role but we don't know about Indians in general since malnutrition, under nutrition, less physical activities are a limitation. So SDRE may actually turn out to be TDRE in future generations. In general you have a height advantage in tennis.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 08 Apr 2017 03:24

Which people? People see Sindhu and people have seen Kumble and Srinath (yeah i date myself). So all this about region that you are going off on is neither intended nor included in my generic lament. SDRE is a term generically used on BRF - it could be TDRE or TFRE for all one cares, and such people exist. See Hrithik Roshan as an example.
No need to go off on the South India tangent.

It was mentioned need tall - and am not questioning tall for tennis, especially serves. I play tennis regularly and know the advantage.
I was just commenting that the generic trend of tall and big in nearly all sports - basketball, volleyball, tennis, or badminton etc.

I guess table tennis is one. Certainly cricket has scope - we have enough desis doing well there who are not on taller side (even north indians :)).

anyways...

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby GShankar » 08 Apr 2017 03:29

Height advantage depends on style of play is what I mean.

Players too tall have mobility issues - eg: isner, karlovic,etc. but they have some of the highest no. of aces. All I am saying is innovations in racket tech, gripping techniques, playing style, etc. the height advantage has reduced in tennis than before.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 08 Apr 2017 03:41

You are making a mountain of a molehill. What is your point? I can't mention they are from south India? All I am saying is your comment about SDRE may eventually turn out to be TDRE. Tennis has a height advantage due to faster and more powerful serve with top spin and better reach across the court. On average all good players are plus-minus 6.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby GShankar » 08 Apr 2017 04:04

Assuming the mountain and molehill thing is not directed at me, I'll re-iterate one final time about the so called height advantage myth.

Faster and powerful serve are countered by technique - the opposing player stands a mile (figuratively of course) behind the base line to counter the powerful serves with or without the topspin. Your statement about good players averaging close to 6 feet is true as of now but is not an essential condition to be a good player because techniques evolve and more players come in with different styles.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Yayavar » 08 Apr 2017 09:30

supratik saar you unnecessarily brought SI into it when it had nothing to do with it.
I just made a comment in passing on all thse sports with advantage to taller folk. Nothing more. we can leave it at that.


GShankar - yes, that is valid. And at the level we play height is not too much of an issue.

I guess table tennis or games like field hockey even out any advantages even more.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 08 Apr 2017 12:40

The Japanese are pretty good examples of how to win despite not having European sized physiques. Take this picture for example:Image
That's Kosuke Kitajima in the middle. Winner of the 100m and 200m breaststroke at both 2004 and 2008 Olympics. Stands 5'10 while most of his opponents are 6'-6'5. He looks like a junior who wandered into the senior prize ceremony by mistake. He's no exception either. Kosuke Hagino, winner of the 400m medley at Rio, is the same height. Daiya Seto, who won bronze, is 5'9. The entire Japanese relay team, including Ryosuke Irie (who has 6x Asiad golds), are 5'8-5'10.

Even the Chinese mostly have 6'2+ swimmers, but the Japanese manage to compete against them at the Asiads despite mostly fielding swimmers almost half a foot shorter. The 5'10 Hagino even beat out the 6'6 Sun Yang in 200m freestyle, one of the short sprints that favor tall guys. They spend an enormous amount of effort understanding and mastering biomechanics to suit their builds. It can be done, but it takes that sort of scientific effort.

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Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Bhurishravas » 08 Apr 2017 15:18

^^ It can be done but that is more of an exception than the norm.
Besides Indians everywhere are getting taller and stronger. With a dedicated training regime, we should get somewhere in football. I am not a fan of tennis.
Father is 5,8. I am 6. My nephew is 6,3. He is still in school. We need better training, physical conditioning and opportunities.


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