Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2018 22:17

football wc also on own. real madrid gareth bale is of wales so does not make the english squad.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6448
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby disha » 14 Apr 2018 03:27

Suraj wrote:Saturday should complete our performance picture: 4 golds up for grabs in wrestling, 7 in boxing, TT, badminton and squash medal rounds represented . Plus two potentials in shooting. From present 17, a final tally of 20 golds would be an expectation. 25 would be outstanding.


If we get to 25 Gold, that will be outstanding indeed! We can look forward to pip Bartania in the next CWG !! Doing that in Birmingham, Bartania will indeed be a very sweet revenge. I would want to look forward to that.

Question though, why are we ahead of Canada in CWG? Are they sending in their B-Team to CWG for preparations to OG?

VenkataS
BRFite
Posts: 237
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 03:38

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby VenkataS » 14 Apr 2018 03:33

http://bwfbadminton.com/rankings/2/bwf- ... &page_no=1
Satwiksairaj Rankireddy and Chirag Shetty are ranked 21st in MD
Sikki Reddy and Pranaav Jerry Chopra are ranked 25th in XD

This is an improvement from a couple of years ago right?

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 464
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Ankit Desai » 14 Apr 2018 04:06

disha wrote:..........................

Question though, why are we ahead of Canada in CWG? Are they sending in their B-Team to CWG for preparations to OG?


Canada was dominating nation in wrestling as far as CWG are concerned. The domination was broken at least from Delhi/Glasgow. At GC they are really having hard time even from Nigeria. At GC weight categories are reduced too so discount at least 10 odd gold (I may be exaggerating ) from Canada this time.

-Ankit

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 04:35

disha: your thoughts are rather misplaced :) Birmingham 2022 does not do us any favors . There is no shooting event at all . Wrestling is being pared further . Already these games have fewer weight classes and no Greco-Roman at all .

In weightlifting the results are a false positive because only one person in the whole competition lifted a world standard total - Mirabai Chanu. Not only did she lift 26kg more than second place , but she lifted more then the gold medalist in the next higher category . Easiest gold she ever won - she didn’t even have anyone lifting her lowest weight in either round - the entire competition was done fighting for silver and bronze before she even stepped foot on the podium . Any other weightlifter who lifts world standard will see the same at CWG.

This isn’t about sour grapes . We are best in these three sports and 14 of 17 golds so far are in them . In these games our top sports have <50 golds combined . In 2022 it will be down to 25. CWG provides us nothing useful anymore .

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2018 05:50

I am sure in england cycling and swimming will have 100 golds each

Under what pretexts are large olympic areas like ahooting and wrestling being cut ? Is there a vote or host countrt can do anything they want ?

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3136
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Apr 2018 07:53

In my opinion, the only benefit to India from being in the Commonwealth is being able to win several medals in the Commonwealth Games. If they screw us by cutting our favorite sports in the CWG also, then India should get out of the Commonwealth. Save on unnecessary expenditure and allocate whatever Foreign Ministry staff that is assigned to the Commonwealth elsewhere.

The real Commonwealth is the UK/ Canada/ Australia/ New Zealand - countries with populations descended from the 'rulers' in the British Empire.

We Indians were among the 'ruled'. Also, 70 years after independence, the current generation has no memories of the British empire, and no mental connect with the 'mother country (UK)'.

I say if no shooting events in next CWG, then no India in Commonwealth. :P

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 09:07

It has been confirmed , as of the Commonwealth Games Federation meeting in January 2018, that shooting has been eliminated from CWG2022 .

Mary Kom wins gold #18 in boxing
Sanjiv Rajput wins gold #19 in shooting 50m 3 positions
Gaurav Solanki wins gold #20 in boxing

Sakshi Malik lost and will only get bronze at best.
Vinesh Phogat will fight for gold.

Manika Batra beat world #4 and triple Olympic medalist Feng Tianwei AGAIN, and makes the TT women's singles final.

Now we are at the 20 gold mark. Anything from here is bonus category.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2018 09:31

of the 31G for ENG so far, 18 are in swim,cycle,tritahlon their go-to areas and another 6 or so in gymnastics taking advantage of weak competition , a couple on shooting.

so the deck has been loaded against less capital intensive sports.

a equivalent example of the vast number of golds available in swimming would athletics having one legged race, sack race, wheelbarrow, three legged cheetah race, backward run and side skipping run. people would call it ridiculous but so too is having 50,100,200,400 in all 4 strokes + , medley for 200,400 .... and all x2 for M and F.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 09:37

31 of Australia’s first 50 golds were swimming. Another 6-10 in cycling . After that I did not keep track . I was disgusted with the ‘booth stuffing’ . Swimming alone has more medals than shooting plus weightlifting plus wrestling in these games . In the next games with no shooting, we have very little mathematical opportunity .

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2200
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Katare » 14 Apr 2018 10:15

Why did we agree to it?

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 10:20

Javelin final in progress . Neeraj Chopra in the lead with 85.5m, 8.5 meters ahead of 2nd place . Unless someone throws an incredible throw much in advance of their personal best, he’s going to win by a mile . Edit: 2nd place is now 82.5 meter, still 3 meters behind him, with the last set of three throws. The games website is boolsheet.

One more gold guaranteed - women’s singles in badminton is between Sindhu and Saina. Men’s final between Srikanth and Lee Chong Wei .

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 10:21

Katare wrote:Why did we agree to it?

Host gets to choose events . Only core sports must be present . Shooting is not a CWG core sport (it IS an Olympic core sport) . Lawn bowls is a CWG core sport though (snicker)

We are not obligated to attend . We have only attended 16 of 20 CWGs . No need to show up in 2022 .

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 11:09

Alright, gold #21 confirmed . Neeraj Chopra in javelin. He threw 86.47, a single centimetre short of his world junior record and championship winning throw. All his throws were at least a meter further than any competitor, and he finished 4 meters ahead of silver medal. 86.5 would him an Olympic or world medal on a good day.

Good to see us win a TFTA event like javelin. Next, I would like to see us develop some world class hammer throwers.

Now we have 22 golds total, including the guaranteed gold in badminton women's singles.

VenkataS
BRFite
Posts: 237
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 03:38

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby VenkataS » 14 Apr 2018 11:26

I am wondering why India did not negotiate and ask for retaining the same number of medals in wrestling, shooting, weightlifting and boxing. They should have negotiated under the threat of leaving the Commonwealth if our core sports are not included at the same levels in the future. Our TV market should be a big enough threat now. At a minimum all Olympic core sports should be core sports at the cwg, ideally all of our best sports should be core sports in the future. Why did we agree to this?

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 11:37

Rathore has written to the Iingleesh to include shooting in 2022. If they don't no point in attending. CWG is talent hunting competition for OG for The Brits, Aus, Can, NZ nothing more. Our talent hunting competition should be AG. Besides I believe you directly qualify to OG from AG. Also CWG does not change rankings.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 11:42

Come on. IOA doesn't even bother to ensure our weightlifters - who won 5 golds, their best ever performance - had a physio . Did you guys see Sathish Sivalingam and Rahul Venkata Ragala hobble off the podium with bandaged knees after guaranteeing gold medals in weightlifting ? The entire team massaged each other because they had no option. IOA aren't going to negotiate anything properly at CGF meetings. Only the CWexit hammer from upper levels of GoI is effective.

The last CWG where sports medal assignment was 'good' was Delhi 2010. Everyone thinks we finished 2nd because of host advantage. Yes that helped, but that's not the whole story. At Delhi 2010, shooting, wrestling and weightlifting had many more medals there, and cycling and swimming had less. This meant there was a good balance between Anglo-friendly sports and India-friendly sports. In such a setting we will give England a much greater competition in the medal tally.

Glasgow 2014 immediately cut shooting from 30 golds to 19, and also cut wrestling categories. Melbourne 2006 removed the separate golds for snatch and clean & jerk in weightlifting. Birmingham 2022 is removing shooting from the program altogether, and don't be surprised if they also cut wrestling event further - Nordic rounds here mean they just don't have enough competitors. Our strong events (shooting/wrestling/weightlifting) used to have ~75 golds at one time. It will be down to 25 or less, in Birmingham 2022.

BTW the GC2018 medal tally also counts para-games. 6 of England's 33 golds are para-sports. Their 'true count' for gold is 27 to our 22 . Similarly, 13 of Australia's 67 golds are para-sports. We have a grand total of one bronze in para sports.

Edit: two more wrestling golds
men's 125kg Sumit
women's 50kg Vinesh Phogat

Total 23 golds confirmed. One more guaranteed in badminton. Plus more possible in boxnig, TT, badminton and squash. We will finish with minimum 24 golds.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4134
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Karthik S » 14 Apr 2018 15:10

Manika Batra wins Gold in women's singles TT.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 15:30

Monica Batra has been the champ of this tournament for India with 4 medals.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 16:08

The men loose to England in hockey. This is one of the worst performance in recent times. Defence is leaking goals. They will have to change a few players.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2909
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Kashi » 14 Apr 2018 17:10

I see that Oltmans is now coaching the Bakis. Why was he let go as the coach of the Indian team?

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 18:19

He was unable to take India to the next level.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 18:26

Neeraj Chopra needs a little more to challenge the Germans in OG. Vikas Gowda could never make it having shown early promise. Hope he does better.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 20:47

Neeraj Chopra is already way better level than Gowda ever was . He’s just 20 . He’s almost beat his WJR and personal best yesterday , and it is early season . Hopefully he will throw 88m by year end . I don’t know why we didn’t send Davinder Singh Kang as second thrower .

Manika Batra’s performance is incredible . She beat Feng Tianwei and Yu Mengyu in back to back matches . Both top ranked members of Chinese team before migrating to Singapore . Somehow they can’t adapt to her combination racket play .

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4842
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby SBajwa » 14 Apr 2018 21:21

Last day of the games (15th april)

1 Gold 1 silver is assuredv (Saina vs Sindhu)

Badminton Men's gold Kidambi vs. Chong (Gold or silver)
Badminton Men's double gold match Satvik+Shetty vs england
Squash Women's double gold match vs England (Joshna+Dipika)
Table Tennis 2 bronze medal matches (Men's single and mixed double).

We only won 1 Gold medal in Athletics (Javelin throw). What happened to the 400M women's relay team? Other athletes!
We did not send that many Athletics athletes (very few in sprinting, long jump, high jump, pole vault, etc.

Athletics are probably the most cost effective sport to build and take many gold medals and is not going to be taken away from any games as they are the core of any games. (Javelin throw, discus throw, shotput, hammer throw, all the races, marathon, walking, etc).

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4842
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby SBajwa » 14 Apr 2018 21:22

Suraj wrote:Neeraj Chopra is already way better level than Gowda ever was . He’s just 20 . He’s almost beat his WJR and personal best yesterday , and it is early season . Hopefully he will throw 88m by year end . I don’t know why we didn’t send Davinder Singh Kang as second thrower .

Manika Batra’s performance is incredible . She beat Feng Tianwei and Yu Mengyu in back to back matches . Both top ranked members of Chinese team before migrating to Singapore . Somehow they can’t adapt to her combination racket play .


I thought Vikas Gowda was a discus thrower and not a javelin thrower.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 21:36

In athletics due to the Carribean and African nations standards are very high in sprint. We are concentrating more on the jumps and throws which has less of genetics factor. And walk. We had only one strong athlete in Neeraj. There was some expectation from the relay teams but they disappointed (men had injury). So we are OK according to our expectations. We should do better in AG. There is another 19 yr old Tejwasin in high jump. He has already done 2.28 m (did 2.24 m at CWG). Another 6-7 cm and he will be medal prospect at international level. Otherwise there were some PBs as well.

Yes, Vikas is discuss thrower but could not go to OG level. Neeraj is more talented.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 21:46

We need something like the German and European leagues in TT to make it a professional sport in India.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4842
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby SBajwa » 14 Apr 2018 21:55

The world record in Javelin throw is 99.72m set in 1984 Olympics. I am guessing that athletes were doing doping back in 1984 and now under stricter doping rules many records might never break.

{Deleted}

Olympics probably have the stricter standards for doping.

These were the medals in Men's javelin throw in 2016 olympics

Gold GER Thomas Rohler 90.30
Silver KEN Julius Yego 88.24
Bronze TRI Keshorn Walcott 85.38
Last edited by Suraj on 14 Apr 2018 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Don't make such ridiculous allegations about our athletes.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 22:08

The Africans have taken over the short and long relays. Jamaica, Botswana and even the English African team are world standard. We can still win relays at AG level, which is lower than CWG level.

The Javelin world record has changed many times, because the original 101m world record was too dangerous to spectators and athletes. They redesigned the javelin in the mid 1980s . The current world record of 98m is by Jan Zelezny . There are two Germans hitting close to 90m these days, but the current season top performance is still high 80m, and Neeraj is in that zone now. He needs to bridge the gap between 87m (sure shot continental gold, world level medal but not always gold) and 90m (consistent world level gold) .

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 22:09

No, there were more events in 2010 that favoured India in shooting, wrestling, archery, tennis, etc. Not doping. They started pruning them down after that to stop India. Similar to what they are doing in OG to stop China. E.g. who does BMX cycling outside developed countries. Just look at the AG schedule and see the kind of garbage they have introduced.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 22:20

In my view, these are our best ever CWG performance. Unlike Delhi 2010, we were playing against a rigged medal distribution, and yet:
* best ever weightlifting haul, best team
* best ever boxing haul, 2nd best team after England
* best ever TT haul, best team
* best ever badminton haul, best team
* as expected, best team in shooting and wrestling

Minimum 26 golds (counting sure gold in badminton womens singles) plus maybe 2 more from TT/squash/badminton. 28 golds would be nearly as many as England's non-para gold total.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 22:24

We only participated in the 400 m relay this time. The men didn't finish and the women didn't do well. Their timing wouldn't give them bronze even in 2010 when they won. We have stagnated whereas the field in CWG has progressed. I believe in the relays except USA almost all the good teams are present. So it is as at world std. We won a gold in discuss and there were some bronzes here and there in 2010.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5421
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Supratik » 14 Apr 2018 22:34

The standard method to rigging the system is to pay off small or poor countries. China has also started doing that but still not there and India should follow suit.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 22:48

We don't really care, that's why. We just show up hoping the field is fair for us, and then get upset when we get only a dozen golds. Doing badly in a gmes where the Anglos deliberately rig the system against us, and we just don't care about that... that is pathetic. We don't *have* to be there, even though we do so well despite the circumstances. Why insult our self-worth with such acceptance of 'fate' ?

We had great performances here, but really, from a *sports* perspective, what did we gain ?
* shooting we already know we are good - we topped the world cup recently, and the junior world cup too. 15-16 years olds like Anish Bhanwala and Manu Bhaker are already world cup gold medalists. Their CWG golds are small potatoes to them.
* wrestling ? the AG and Asian championships are better. Bajrang said his training bouts are harder than the CWG opposition - he won all his matches 10:0 in under 2 minutes.
* weightlifting ? The gold medals in every category were 20-30kg below AG and OG, with just one exception - Mirabai Chanu, whose 196kg lift would win her the last world championship again, and also silver in OG.
* boxing ? No Cubans, SoKo or Central Asians, but this was the one sport where we saw gains here.

We had some memorable wins. But they can be earned in more impactful places too, e.g. TT Asian Championships, Asian Boxing Championship.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4842
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby SBajwa » 15 Apr 2018 01:06

To play any sports you will need

1. Good coaches at each level (for example in Hockey, a defense coach, an offense coach, main coach, etc).
for example in NFL (american football) There is main coach, offense coach, defense coach, quarterback coach, receiver coach, etc.
2. Good physiotherapist who does warmup with the team and/or individual.
3. Good qualified nutritionist.
4. Psychiatrist that trains on focus and how to not get trapped by opponent/opponents.

If we have this starting from the 10-12 years old then it is all set.

The amount of sports USA kids play is incredible. Each school have athletics, soccer, field hockey (women mostly), gymnastics, swimming, tennis, basketball, american football, etc.

My 17 years old son has been playing tennis for 4 years now (previously he was playing baseball then switched over). All winter they practiced indoor daily for 2 hours after school and comes home around 6:00 pm. Each weekend they either are hosting a match against other team or they go there.
Then at the end of the season they get top 4 teams and have semi-finals and final.

This is pretty much same for other sports.

Also all universities have similar sports structure where they visit each other.

Most of the US olympic medals are from these university students and/or professional players.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2018 06:33

Its already been explained suraj that no money in developing world for each high school to have such sporting infra and coaches

Waxing eloquent about milk and honey when we have a bowl of ragi gruel wont move ship forward

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11788
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Suraj » 15 Apr 2018 08:32

Saina beat Sindhu. Srikanth loses . The women’s squash pair also lose . One last chance for gold #27 from badminton men’s doubles which involves the teenage power pair .

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2018 10:22

the indian pair looks clueless and out of ideas vs the shorter and more planned looking british duo who have good net play and not indulging in power smash rallies.

on current trendline, they will lose. lots of unforced errors and excitable teen level play.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62928
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Sports and Entertainment Industry

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2018 10:37

i am really impressed by the botswana 4x400 m team ... tall, strong, scared off the jamaicans .... won it and then all 4 did finger pushups head to head in a bro move.
#intimidation
#zulu power

Image

our 2nd leg runner limped off with a pull ..... I dont think we would have been in top4 though .... but perhaps a chance to best PB and national marks.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests