PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 08 Jul 2011 07:29

61 Mainland Corporations Enter Fortune Global 500

Sixty-one Chinese mainland corporations were listed in the Fortune Global 500 2011 which was published this Thursday, 15 more than last year's, China News Service reports.

Sinopec Group, China National Petroleum and State Grid remain in the top 10 with the respective ranks 5, 6 and 7.

Of the 15 Chinese mainland corporations new to this year's list, Lenovo Group (rank 449) and China Ocean Shipping (rank 398) made a reappearance whilst the other 13 corporations feature for the first time.

Eight Taiwan corporations are also on the list.

With a total of 133 corporations, the United States has the largest number of entries in the Global 500. Wal-Mart Stores remain in first rank.

The Fortune Global 500 is a ranking of the top 500 corporations worldwide according to revenue. The list is compiled and published annually by Fortune magazine.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 08:57

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^The sun seems to have risen from the west what with somnath-ji passionately defending the Yindian model despite its relatively yindu growth rates compared to soaring-dragon rates in PRC. Mysterious are the ways of the world indeed....



Their is no such thing as an Indian model. Our policy was drastically different during the "yindoo growth rate" era. We are at an earlier stage of development in comparison to the Chinese. At present direct comparisons are futile. Once we reach the Chinese stage of development can we make relevant comparisons. Coming decade the Chinese growth will moderate and there will be corrections. In India reforms like the GST ,land reforms and labour reforms are long overdue. But will eventually have to be carried out. You can expect soaring "yindoo growth rates" then.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 09:06

somnath wrote:
Having said that, anyone hiring (both Chinese and Indians) would be able to know the difference in quality - its partly felicity with English, but also the general level of higher education...


I don't think education is something that we can argue on. Since you seem to be a management guy you will obviously give an advantage to the Indians do to several great institutes there. But both Indians and chinese need several improvements in this sector. I am a doctor and I actually find the Chinese to be very hard working people. (the mainlanders) . Their trouble with english depends from where they come from. But most of them do overcome it. One thing common between our students and the chinese is emphasis on cramming , being procedure driven and a rigid adherence to textbook. Both of us suck at innovations and acceptability of new ideas. The west is significantly better than both indians and chinese. We are no where near Taiwan , Korea or Japan on this one. Both of us tend to be market driven (more commonly the Indians).

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby VikramS » 08 Jul 2011 09:10

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-0 ... -view.html

Weird are the ways of the Panda. The need to control everything is dangerous.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 09:12

zlin wrote:61 Mainland Corporations Enter Fortune Global 500

Sixty-one Chinese mainland corporations were listed in the Fortune Global 500 2011 which was published this Thursday, 15 more than last year's, China News Service reports.

Sinopec Group, China National Petroleum and State Grid remain in the top 10 with the respective ranks 5, 6 and 7.

Of the 15 Chinese mainland corporations new to this year's list, Lenovo Group (rank 449) and China Ocean Shipping (rank 398) made a reappearance whilst the other 13 corporations feature for the first time.

Eight Taiwan corporations are also on the list.

With a total of 133 corporations, the United States has the largest number of entries in the Global 500. Wal-Mart Stores remain in first rank.

The Fortune Global 500 is a ranking of the top 500 corporations worldwide according to revenue. The list is compiled and published annually by Fortune magazine.


That is exactly the point we were trying to make. China is a land of few huge State owned behemoths that makes it difficult for small or medium enterprises to flourish. It will be difficult for an ordinary Joe (or should I say an ordinary chang ) to open anything .

I am not saying that India is a land of oportunity yet but we are getting there. In the coming decade you will see a lot of indian small , midscale enterprises similar to Taiwan.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2011 09:14

the koreans and taiwanese are the same ethnic stock and culture as the mainland chinese to a great extent. so I dont think there's anything much "cultural" about the "suck at innovations" part. maybe these things tend to come at a higher level of economic development as Soko and Taiwan have reached ?

what did korea and taiwan produce back in 1960s when their per capita was equivalent to PRC today - not much beyond what PRC does today, infact I would argue PRC is ahead of that product mix! they were not the worlds 2nd largest economy and didnt have so many levers to obtain fresh technology and didnt have the superb 'cloning' capabilities of our biraders :D

I do not see any other country with the current per-capita income of china or india relative to the G8 level being paricularly a source of new money making ideas ... even looking back at history the poorer countries lacked in technology and education and were always either being exploited or on the warpath to grab themselves a share of the loot (mongols invading persia and north india for instance, arabs invading the fertile crescent,palestine and sindh, goths going after roman empire....).

you might also argue that per-capita is irrelevant and only the slice of people in PRC and india educated to world class levels and working in world class industries matter and these have not delivered. but then again, its the domestic market and its technology density that creates the samsungs and mitsubishi's of the world , a thin elite can merely serve as adjucts to a foreign owned innovation system and indeed they do. local cos are upcoming but the threshold of high income consumers isnt there yet imo.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby abhischekcc » 08 Jul 2011 09:31

Gakakkad,
Indians not good at innovation!!! That is such a wrong statement it does not even bear refutation. We have been innovating sicne the beginning of civilisation, otherwise such a large population could not live in such a small piece of land. Innovation in India is not the marketing driven phenomenon it is in the west, so perhaps you do not notice it.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 09:34

Singha wrote:the koreans and taiwanese are the same ethnic stock and culture as the mainland chinese to a great extent. so I dont think there's anything much "cultural" about the "suck at innovations" part. maybe these things tend to come at a higher level of economic development as Soko and Taiwan have reached ?
I do not see any other country with the current per-capita income of china or india relative to the G8 level being paricularly a source of new money making ideas ... even looking back at history the poorer countries lacked in technology and education and were always either being exploited or on the warpath to grab themselves a share of the loot (mongols invading persia and north india for instance).


I am talking about the education system . The difference can be very clear when you compare an Indian educated in India working/studying with the west to Indian educated in west and working there. I belong to the former group . I did my schooling and MBBS from India. While i had the tendency to read a lot more than my American counterparts and Indian brought up in US , I could not come up with research topics as fast as they could. My test scores are always on the top. I give the least number of head aches to my attending professors in patient related matters.

The reason I realised was very simple. I had to score very highly in India. We have a natural tendency to keep reading and cramming all day . And thats what prevents innovation. Its not at all cultural.In fact Indian and Chinese culture have many advantages compare to the western . What I liked about the Japanese and Korean system is that it is vastly different from the western education system. And they too are big book worms. Yet they manage to strike a perfect balance.
I find the Indians educated in US to be superb at everything . I would call them the best human resource in the world.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby somnath » 08 Jul 2011 09:39

The Fortune 500 list is quite interesting..China has a humungous 61 companies there - thats HUGE...Most of them are state owned, but that is simply reflecting the nature of the economy..

Paradoxically, 5 out of the 8 Indian entries there are also state-owned...

By pure straight line GDP derivations, we should have had ~20-25 companies in that list...But the structural differences come about..

In banking for example, the big 4 control bulk of the banking market in China - in India, SBI takes ~17-18%, ICICI ~10%, rest are all in the <2% range...Not surprisingly, all the big 4 banks are in Fortune, India has only SBI...The story is similar for telecoms- where 2 Chinese companies divvie up the market (both are in the list)..In India, the largest company enjoys no more than 15-20% marketshare - both Chinese companies are in the list, India has none...In fact bulk of the companies in the China list are state monopolies (or oligopolies), many in natural resources...In India, the numbers of state monopolies are quite small now (and some, like Indian Railways, are not listed), and rapidly coming off...

For India, one notable exclusion is Coal India - by revenues it should have easily qualified..I think they would take it in next year...

the list is here..
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/ ... India.html

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby somnath » 08 Jul 2011 09:47

gakakkad wrote:I am talking about the education system . The difference can be very clear when you compare an Indian educated in India working/studying with the west to Indian educated in west and working there

This is an overhyped point really...There are perfectly intelligent people like Jeff Immelt who are lamenting the fact that less students in the US are doing India-China style education in maths....

A lot of innovation is driven simply by availability of large market, and to some extent functioning "factor" markets (like capital, labour, regulations etc)...For India and China, their markets were earlier not large enough, to merit "new" innovation...Plus factor markets were lagging...Today, in areas where the markets are large, there are innovations happening in India and China...We are a large small car market, hence we have a Nano..Wonder why Detroit with all its technical might couldnt do one? Simple - they didnt have a market for it..Similarly, an Apple comes up in the US since it is the largest market for infotech products in the world...In the coming years, when India gets there, expect "innovations" in India as well...

US has a lot going for it - its unis are the best, its infra the best, its capital markets are the best..But above all, it is a 15 trillion dollar economy - the largest market for most goods and services that you can sell - that is the primary engine of innovation...

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby amit » 08 Jul 2011 09:51

Reuters has carried a nice report which ties in very well with our discussion on infra spending.

China may cut spending on strategic industries

Some folks will remember the brouhaha generated when China announce the seven strategic industries spending which would propel the country up the value add chain and spark innovation. Well it seems things are not going according to plan.

Some excerpts:

China may rein in plans to invest heavily in seven new strategic industries, including high speed rail and wind power, scaling back cutting-edge projects for industries suffering from old-fashioned problems such as corruption and overcapacity, sources said.


IMO the bolded portion is very important to the discussion we were having about RoI and NPAs that were piling up (with NO chance of repayment) as 70 per cent of China's GDP is pumped into infra and housing.

With the CCP controlling the economy and just about everything else it can just wipe away all the NPA and start with a clean slate and in the wake leave a whole generation of Chinese impoverished as they pick up the tabs for the NPAs. I would guess this is the gist of what Chola was arguing and to be sure he's right on this.

However, the flip side of such a model is it breeds in inefficiencies into the system such as corruption and over capacity because nobody is worried about repaying loans taken for the building. And with CCP controlling everything there is only a linear line of command - that is no ombudsman or Lokpal kind of arrangement - and so if your boss is in with the take All Izz Well. That's what happened to HSR as we will later find out.

Now this inefficiency ties with the point Somnath made. To wit with a 50% plus saving rate, China is managing a 10-11 per cent growth while India - despite corruption here, also - is managing a 8-9 per cent growth with 35-37 per cent savings rate. My conclusion: even an imperfect system of checks and balance that exist in India is better, in terms of more efficient capital utilization, than what is happening in China now.

More details:

Beijing originally planned to invest up to $1.5 trillion over the next five years in the seven sectors, hoping they would grow into a pillar of economic growth and help shift the world's second-largest economy away from one centered on manufacturing cheap goods.

The pullback on spending stems partly from worries about corruption in the country's high-speed rail project and overcapacity concerns in the wind power sector, said two sources with ties to China's Communist Party leadership and knowledge of the plan.


The overcapacity in windpower is a ROTFL moment in my opinion. Over capacity in power generation in a nation where demand for power is skyrocketing!

Beijing has long used infrastructure spending to generate jobs and economic activity, most recently tapping government coffers to stave off the effects of the global financial crisis.{Of course bolding this portion is preaching to the choir on this thread, but nevertheless...}

While high rates of fixed asset investment have helped maintain strong growth, some economists, such as Nouriel Roubini, have argued that China's current levels of investment are unsustainable.


These days, China is more concerned about taming inflation and managing a mountain of debt piled up by local and provincial governments that the country's state auditor estimates at 10.7 trillion yuan ($1.65 trillion).


Needless to say most economists think that the $1.65 trillion is gross underestimation.

Analysts welcomed the news, which could mean less borrowing by local governments and faster consolidation of sectors like wind power.

"A lot of these projects are in already question because of their (debt) liability and safety standards," said Kevin Lai, an economist with Daiwa in Hong Kong.

"The question that needs to be asked is: Is (investment-driven expansion) the kind of growth that China really wants?"


TAFTA analyst are asking the same questions we dhoti-shivering SDREs are asking. :)

Lower spending in high-speed rail is directly related to the departure of the railway minister, sacked this year under a cloud of corruption, said the sources.

The former minister, Liu Zhijun, spearheaded China's high-speed rail expansion until he was removed in March for "disciplinary violations," a charge commonly used to denote corruption. There were no further details.


See my comment about if your boss is in the take why worry, be merry!

Premier Wen Jiabao in April warned against corruption tied to big projects, telling "cadres, their families and staff as well as heads of state-owned enterprises, state financial institutions and academic institutions not to intervene in or manipulate bids in any form."


I had missed this one. If Wen Saab has to issue this blunt warning the problem is very serious. But this again ties in with the point about not having to worry where the money is coming from and where it is going.

The ministry has denied any plans to cancel or downgrade rail lines. But the new Minister Sheng Guangzu put investment in railway infrastructure in 2011 at 600 billion yuan ($92 billion), compared with Liu's pledge of 700 billion yuan.

Liu's tenure saw rapid development of China's high-speed rail network, surpassing Japan's storied bullet trains to become, at 8,400 km (5,000 miles), the world's longest. Liu had planned to boost the network to 50,000 km (30,000 miles) by 2015. Sheng told the official People's Daily that it would build a slightly more modest 45,000 km.

The ministry, already deep in debt, still expects to spend another 2.8 trillion yuan between now and 2015. But some analysts believe the investment surge has left it with an unsustainable debt burden.


I think there's one person on this thread who should take a bow. Yes Vina don't be shy, you predicted this many moons back. :)

The state planning National Development and Reform Commission and the National Energy Administration plan to build seven wind power plants in western China with generation capacity of at least 10 million kilowatts each, according to the country's 12th five-year plan. But critics say these projects could be ill-advised -- requiring heavy spending in power grids because wind and solar power plants are located mainly in western, inland regions, while the manufacturing bases are concentrated in faraway coastal provinces.


The bolded portion is just a reminder that renewables are not easy and cheap to use for base load generation. But I guess OT for this thread.
Last edited by amit on 08 Jul 2011 10:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby amit » 08 Jul 2011 09:57

abhischekcc wrote:Gakakkad,
Indians not good at innovation!!! That is such a wrong statement it does not even bear refutation. We have been innovating sicne the beginning of civilisation, otherwise such a large population could not live in such a small piece of land. Innovation in India is not the marketing driven phenomenon it is in the west, so perhaps you do not notice it.


Just to add to Abhi's comment, innovation does not have to be the type we see in the West. Indian juggad is as much an innovation as any. Just to give one small example. India has been using electronic voting machines for the past 10 years and remember that everytime India votes in a general election it is the largest ever exercise of franchise in the history of mankind.

While not going into the hugely interesting discussion about voting machine manipulation [ :D ], just consider these machines. Cost below Rs10,000 can operate anywhere even with a car battery and have been transported to election booths on elephant back, carried by porters and to even the farthest corners of India. And by and large they work beautifully.

Now the funny part is the US of A has not yet been able to develop such voting machine which can completely replace paper. As far as I know their machines are very TFTA, looking more like ATMs and are networked with a central server and cost a bomb. But the problem is the networking - nobody is willing to give a certificate that it can't be hacked!

So, my friend the humble voting machine is as much an innovation as any stuff that comes out of fancy labs in the West.

JMT
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby amit » 08 Jul 2011 10:04

somnath wrote:The Fortune 500 list is quite interesting..China has a humungous 61 companies there - thats HUGE...Most of them are state owned, but that is simply reflecting the nature of the economy..

Paradoxically, 5 out of the 8 Indian entries there are also state-owned...

By pure straight line GDP derivations, we should have had ~20-25 companies in that list...But the structural differences come about..

In banking for example, the big 4 control bulk of the banking market in China - in India, SBI takes ~17-18%, ICICI ~10%, rest are all in the <2% range...Not surprisingly, all the big 4 banks are in Fortune, India has only SBI...The story is similar for telecoms- where 2 Chinese companies divvie up the market (both are in the list)..In India, the largest company enjoys no more than 15-20% marketshare - both Chinese companies are in the list, India has none...In fact bulk of the companies in the China list are state monopolies (or oligopolies), many in natural resources...In India, the numbers of state monopolies are quite small now (and some, like Indian Railways, are not listed), and rapidly coming off...

For India, one notable exclusion is Coal India - by revenues it should have easily qualified..I think they would take it in next year...

the list is here..
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/ ... India.html


Actually I think the less number of companies in the Fortune 500 the better for India. Let me explain. Unless a Indian Fortune 500 is a true multinational like say a HP or IBM, being so big would only mean it will have near monopoly market in the sector that it operates in, just like the bank and telecom examples from China you cite.

That's not good for either competition or for innovation.

I would think, as a example, Bharti is as competitive and innovate telco as any in the world. Can the same be said about the Chinese telcos?

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby somnath » 08 Jul 2011 10:26

^^^A very large number of Fortune 500 companies are resources companies - thats the nature of the beast - resources tend to be monopolistic in most places...

The thing that is amazing about the US is the internationalisation of US companies...Look at that US list - I can hazard that at least 30-40% of consolidated revenues in that list comes from non-US operations...And dont think there is a single monopoly operator there, even in resources...Thats really breathtaking - shows how a large home market can enable innovation and expansion, given the right inputs...

Whether there will be more Indian companies in the list in the days to come - we shall see..Given the "open" nature of economy, competition will always be snapping away at incumbents in India...There will also be foreign players simply buying out domestic players....Its a fun list, but not of much use other than that....

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 08 Jul 2011 10:27

Through history India and China were the source of luxury goods. Stuff the others could only dream about. The BMW's/Porsche's and Tiffany's/Cartier's of the medieval period. I have no doubt this will repeat.

In the long run Panda should/will dismantle its CPC as Korea and Taiwan did. Once that is done their innovation will truly get into gear. The problem is with the present development pattern. If you remember Korea hit a brick wall in the 1980's - 1990's with its strikes, corruption and Chaebols. To their credit they completely restructured and overhauled everything including their electoral system. That helped them to the next level.

What happens when Panda hits the fork in that road. Historically the shades have come down every time.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 10:29

everyone thanks for your inputs in my view of education system. I hope India becomes the hub of innovation in the next decade.

Wind power over capacity is truly hilarious. Did the Chinese start building wind mills at places without decent wind velocity ?

The chinese railway minister was sacked for corruption :)

I am curious about one thing. What happens to top chinese officials if they are found guilty of corruption (if ever they are found) ? Do they get a ticket to the famed Chinese luxury vans ? :twisted: :evil: I hear that more than 3000 chinese are privileged with the trip every year. (trip to a new life :twisted: :twisted: )

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby amit » 08 Jul 2011 12:08

Marten wrote:By Beijing’s estimate, total local government debt amounted to $2.2 trillion last year — a staggering figure, equal to one-third of the nation’s gross domestic product. A wave of municipal defaults could become a huge liability for the central government, which is sitting on about $2 trillion in debt of its own.

And Beijing’s estimate of what the cities owe might be too low, in the view of Victor Shih, a professor of political economy at Northwestern University who has studied China’s municipal debt. He says that by now, after even more borrowing in early 2011 and some figures hidden from government audits, total municipal debt in China could be closer to $3 trillion.

“Most of the government entities that borrow can’t even make the interest payments on the loans,” Professor Shih said.


In 2009, for instance, Wuhan’s big investment company, Wuhan U.C.I.D., borrowed $230 million from investors and then used nearly a third of the money to repay some of its bank loans.



Nice find Marten.

If we take Prof Shih's estimate of $3 trillion and add the central Govt's $2 trillion that makes it, wow! $5 trillion. That is debt is the same as GDP and growing! Of course our Chinese guests will point to Japan and point to its debt. However, IMHO the big difference here is that Japan piled up all that debt after it had grown rich and not during the process of getting rich. Big difference IMO since China needs to keep growing at above 7-8 per cent and given it current model of 70 per cent of GDP going to infra and housing, this debt figure will only, likely go one direction: Northwards. Japan, on the other hand, is in a stage where a 2-3 per cent growth would be considered very creditable.

In a report this year, the investment bank Credit Suisse identified Wuhan as one of China’s “top 10 cities to avoid,” saying its housing stock was so huge that it would take eight years to sell the residences already completed — never mind the hundreds of thousands now under construction.


IMO the bolded portion ties into something I've been saying. While on the face of it infra lasts a long time an apartment/house lying empty for eight years is not fit for human habitation unless major renovation work is done - again more good dollars chasing bad dollars.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby somnath » 08 Jul 2011 12:36

amit wrote:If we take Prof Shih's estimate of $3 trillion and add the central Govt's $2 trillion that makes it, wow! $5 trillion. That is debt is the same as GDP and growing

ACtually these are different estimates of the same variable! Howver, there are some numbers that I have come across that estimate debt-to-GDP ratios of 90%+ for China...

However, it is hardly a problem...India's debt-to-GDP, officially is ~70%, but add in the "invisibles", and it would be in the 80-90% range (Japan's btw, is >200%)...As long as the borrowings are largely financed out of domestic savings, as is the case in both India and China, the problem isnt acute...Especially if the economy is growing at a nominal rate that is higher than the incremental cost of borrowing...A bit like financial leverage in corporate balance sheets, as long as the Return on Investments exceed cost of borrowing, it is better for the equity holder to borrow! (Reminds me of the Modigliani-Miller debt-equity equivalence hypothesis, from ages back :) )....

Of course, in terms of public finance, its not sustainable to indefinitely keep piling up debt, but the point is that as long as the borrowing is financed largely out of domestic savings, and is gerating higher nominal growth, it isnt unmanageable...

The issue with China is on the question of "growth"..Will growth sustain itself without an ever increasing investment input? To their credit, they have...they are not "visibly" bankrupt, yet....For what its worth, China's sovereign credit rating at A- is a couple of notches above India's @ BBB-...Above all, the infrastructure being created, even HSR, will have its uses, if not for the current owners, then for the next owners (who might be foreigners buying them at fire-sale prices!)....

The interesting bit to watch out for would be if the banks survive the "correctoin", and above all, how does the polity respond...

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby niran » 08 Jul 2011 12:53

gakakkad wrote:I am curious about one thing. What happens to top chinese officials if they are found guilty of corruption (if ever they are found) ? Do they get a ticket to the famed Chinese luxury vans ? :twisted: :evil: I hear that more than 3000 chinese are privileged with the trip every year. (trip to a new life :twisted: :twisted: )

depends on who is the Emperor and the color of ties with his excellency, Red color==worst case sacking from post and some lowly accountant Gardner hanged, Green color== the official is hanged along with his retainers.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2011 13:19

$92b spending in a year on railway infra is amazing. and they must have been spending like that for past decade...

now I know where the swank airport style railway stations and chi chi bullet trains come from...

must have been a cost-no-object command from the top to source the best technology, projects and materials and get into delivery mode.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 08 Jul 2011 23:07




Interesting times. Very interesting times .

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Virupaksha » 08 Jul 2011 23:21

Nonsense, does the US report its debt liabilities adding up the debt of california and all its local govts, along with the debts of citibank, boa etc..??

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby satya » 08 Jul 2011 23:35

'Assuming' 2008 crisis was part of strategic calculation by PRC Handle , its the 3rd year & there's talk of inflation + bad loan = unsustainable future economic path so 3 -5 year is the timeline they had in mind just a guess going by this going downhill news in media ..

External front : US bad employment number & talk of QE3 anyname but the 3rd should happen how's that going to sustain the current demand for Chinese imports ? Will it increase if US consumers have a choice for cheap chinese made vs expensive western made product if there's such a range of products to chose from on other hand no such option then i guess massive discounts to maintain current levels with some minor dip. How minor don't know but given US is pretty big export mkt for PRC so..................... . On other hand if US demand goes down can it be covered in non OECD countries ? decoupling debate yes but confirmed yes or no ?

Europe is interesting for in all likelihood there will be a consolidation . Should tht happen it will lead to a stable mkt for PRC won't be surprise if we see an increase in PRC's export to European mainland in medium term but how long Europeans will take given its time to hit the beaches they r not changing their ways or so it seem to me

PRC domestic scene is like a pakjabi's home where 4 generations under one roof , no one knows who with whom & wht all sorts of rumors so where there smoke there's fire , how big the fire is anybody's guess. But i think domestic scene is not that bad as dry ammo cooked or real can be used for wht's a few hundred more cities empty today day in next decade or after filled given books can still be cooked its all in family under one roof so West might look other way for we all know why

Question is timing as in Option , no doubt PRC has dry ammunition but will it last till Europe back on its franco-german legs or Unkil can find the new marketing gig for internet is 2 decades old . Fingers crossed . Have both call & put in place


Just my sleepy thoughts

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby saip » 08 Jul 2011 23:42

ravi_ku wrote:Nonsense, does the US report its debt liabilities adding up the debt of california and all its local govts, along with the debts of citibank, boa etc..??


The difference is that in the USA, the banks are not owned by the Government. Also, what part of the local debt is underwritten by central govt in China?

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Virupaksha » 09 Jul 2011 02:11

saip wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Nonsense, does the US report its debt liabilities adding up the debt of california and all its local govts, along with the debts of citibank, boa etc..??


The difference is that in the USA, the banks are not owned by the Government. Also, what part of the local debt is underwritten by central govt in China?

even after 2008??

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby saip » 09 Jul 2011 03:01

The amounts given to US banks under Troubled Asset Relief Program in exchange for their stock is included in the debt. In any case these banks and financial institutions were never wholly owned by the US govt except for perhaps Fannie May and Freddie Mac where, AFAIK, the US govt guarantees. I don't think this obligation is included in the national debt.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 09 Jul 2011 04:04

CNOOC Lanjing Floating Crane

DWT: 70000
Capacity (mT): 7500
Build: 2008-05-07
Manufacturer: ZPMC
Ship Type: Offshore Construction

Lanjing, a Self-propelled vessel equipped with 360° revolving crane, the largest of its kind. It is capable of navigating in unlimited area, and operating in designated area.
Image
Image
Image

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Virupaksha » 09 Jul 2011 04:07

and you are putting those propagandu photos instead of links because??

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 09 Jul 2011 04:08

China Energy and Seamwell to build USD 1 billion clean coal plant

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2011-6-29
SteelGuru

Bloomberg reported that China Energy Conservation & Environmental Protection Group a state owned project developer will build a USD 1.5 billion clean coal plant in Inner Mongolia with UK based Seamwell International Ltd. According to a statement from Seamwell the companies agreed to collaborate on the electric power plant that’ll harvest its energy from gasified coal deep underground, the first commercial plant of its size in the world.

Mr Matthew Idiens president of Normanton, West Yorkshire-based Seamwell said the plant on the YiHe Coal Field will produce power by the end of 2014 or 2015. It will generate 1,000 megawatts of electricity for about 25 years. The contracts for the accord are being signed at a UK China summit attended by Chinese Premier Mr Wen Jiabao and UK Prime Minister Mr David Cameron.

China is promoting cleaner energy to meet a 2020 goal of cutting the amount of carbon it emits per unit of economic output by 40% to 45% from 2005 levels as demand for power grows in the world’s biggest energy consumer market.

According to Seamwell the project will drill to the seam of coal that is then ignited and injected with air, oxygen or steam to create synthesis gas. That will be pumped out and cleaned before being used by a combined cycle power plant at the surface. There are 280 billion tons of coal resources stranded in that region of Inner Mongolia. Mr Idiens said “The intention is to build more power plants of a similar type, to roll the technology out onto additional coal fields. The technology is very scalable.”The commercial plant will be fitted with carbon-capture technology that collects the emissions linked to climate change before combustion and then stores them permanently underground. This is a 50% savings on emissions when compared to a traditional coal-fired plant. Seamwell is owned by private investors including Idiens and financial institutions.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 09 Jul 2011 04:09

China Guodian starts work on 4 bil cu m per year coal to gas project

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2011-6-28
ChinaMining

China Guodian Corporation said Friday it has started construction of 4 billion cubic meter/year coal-to-gas plant in Nileke county in China's northwestern Xinjiang province.The plant will be constructed in two phases by the company's subsidiary, Nileke Energy & Chemical Engineering, at a cost of Yuan 26.8 billion ($4.12 billion).The first phase of project is expected to come online in December 2015 with annual gas production of 2 billion cu m. The second phase is scheduled to be completed in 2017.

All the gas from the plant will be fed into the main network of China's West-to-East gas pipeline for domestic consumption. The 30 billion cu m/year pipeline runs from Huo'erguosi in Xinjiang province to Shaoguan in southeastern Guangdong province. China Guodian said it plans to eventually lift the capacity of the plant to 10 billion cu m/year by 2020.

Nileke Energy & Chemical Engineering has also started work on a Yuan 6.3 billion coal mining project in Nileke county that will supply the coal-to-gas plant with feedstock, China Guodian said. The first phase of the coal project is expected to be completed by the end of 2012 and have annual production of 10 million mt of coal. The second phase will be completed at the end of 2017, adding another 6 million mt of annual output.The company's 48.8 sq km coalfield in Nikele county has estimated coal reserves of 2.26 billion mt.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Virupaksha » 09 Jul 2011 04:16

links???

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 09 Jul 2011 04:21

China vs. America: Which Is the Developing Country?
By ROBERT J. HERBOLD

Recently I flew from Los Angeles to China to attend a corporate board-of-directors meeting in Shanghai, as well as customer and government visits there and in Beijing. After the trip was over, in thinking about the United States and China, it was not clear to me which is the developed, and which is the developing, country.

Infrastructure: Let's face it, Los Angeles is decaying. Its airport is cramped and dirty, too small for the volume it tries to handle and in a state of disrepair. In contrast, the airports in Beijing and Shanghai are brand new, clean and incredibly spacious, with friendly, courteous staff galore. They are extremely well-designed to handle the large volume of air traffic needed to carry out global business these days.

In traveling the highways around Los Angeles to get to the airport, you are struck by the state of disrepair there, too. Of course, everyone knows California is bankrupt and that is probably the reason why. In contrast, the infrastructure in the major Chinese cities such as Shanghai and Beijing is absolute state-of-the-art and relatively new.

The congestion in the two cities is similar. In China, consumers are buying 18 million cars per year compared to 11 million in the U.S. China is working hard building roads to keep up with the gigantic demand for the automobile.

The just-completed Beijing to Shanghai high-speed rail link, which takes less than five hours for the 800-mile trip, is the crown jewel of China's current 5,000 miles of rail, set to grow to 10,000 miles in 2020. Compare that to decaying Amtrak.

Image
AFP/Getty Images

The just-completed Beijing to Shanghai high-speed rail link is the crown jewel of China's current 5,000 miles of rail.
.
Government Leadership: Here the differences are staggering. In every meeting we attended, with four different customers of our company as well as representatives from four different arms of the Chinese government, our hosts began their presentation with a brief discussion of China's new five-year-plan. This is the 12th five-year plan and it was announced in March 2011. Each of these groups reminded us that the new five-year plan is primarily focused on three things: 1) improving innovation in the country; 2) making significant improvements in the environmental footprint of China; and 3) continuing to create jobs to employ large numbers of people moving from rural to urban areas. Can you imagine the U.S. Congress and president emerging with a unified five-year plan that they actually achieve (like China typically does)?

The specificity of China's goals in each element of the five-year plan is impressive. For example, China plans to cut carbon emissions by 17% by 2016. In the same time frame, China's high-tech industries are to grow to 15% of the economy from 3% today.

Government Finances: This topic is, frankly, embarrassing. China manages its economy with incredible care and is sitting on trillions of dollars of reserves. In contrast, the U.S. government has managed its financials very poorly over the years and is flirting with a Greece-like catastrophe.

Human Rights/Free Speech: In this area, our American view is that China has a ton of work to do. Their view is that we are nuts for not blocking ***** and antigovernment points-of-view from our youth and citizens.

Technology and Innovation: To give you a feel for China's determination to become globally competitive in technology innovation, let me cite some statistics from two facilities we visited. Over the last 10 years, the Institute of Biophysics, an arm of the Chinese Academy of Science, has received very significant investment by the Chinese government. Today it consists of more than 3,000 talented scientists focused on doing world-class research in areas such as protein science, and brain and cognitive sciences.

We also visited the new Shanghai Advanced Research Institute, another arm of the Chinese Academy of Science. This gigantic science and technology park is under construction and today consists of four buildings, but it will grow to over 60 buildings on a large piece of land equivalent to about a third of a square mile. It is being staffed by Ph.D.-caliber researchers. Their goal statement is fairly straightforward: "To be a pioneer in the development of new technologies relevant to business."

All of the various institutes being run by the Chinese Academy of Science are going to be significantly increased in size, and staffing will be aided by a new recruiting program called "Ten Thousand Talents." This is an effort by the Chinese government to reach out to Chinese individuals who have been trained, and currently reside, outside China. They are focusing on those who are world-class in their technical abilities, primarily at the Ph.D. level, at work in various universities and science institutes abroad. In each year of this new five-year plan, the goal is to recruit 2,000 of these individuals to return to China.

Reasons and Cure: Given all of the above, I think you can see why I pose the fundamental question: Which is the developing country and which is the developed country? The next questions are: Why is this occurring and what should the U.S. do?

Let's face it—we are getting beaten because the U.S. government can't seem to make big improvements. Issues quickly get polarized, and then further polarized by the media, which needs extreme viewpoints to draw attention and increase audience size. The autocratic Chinese leadership gets things done fast (currently the autocrats seem to be highly effective).

What is the cure? Washington politicians and American voters need to snap to and realize they are getting beaten—and make big changes that put the U.S. back on track: Fix the budget and the burden of entitlements; implement an aggressive five-year debt-reduction plan, and start approving some winning plans. Wake up, America!

Mr. Herbold, a retired chief operating officer of Microsoft Corporation, is the managing director of The Herbold Group, LLC and author of "What's Holding You Back? Ten Bold Steps That Define Gutsy Leaders" (Wiley/Jossey-Bass, 2011).

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby zlin » 09 Jul 2011 04:53

UK expert: China's nuclear know-how can be exported
By Zhang Qi (China Daily)

Image
A model of a third-generation nuclear power generating plant on display at an expo in Beijing. [Photo / China Daily]

BEIJING - The Chinese nuclear industry is developing rapidly and the experience it is gaining provides Chinese companies opportunities to invest in the United Kingdom, a UK expert said.

The major area of opportunity is for companies that manufacture components for the AP-1000 - the third generation technology of Westinghouse - or Areva reactors, said Tim Stone, chairman of KPMG's Global Infrastructure & Projects.

"These are the reactors that either are already being used in the UK or could well be once our nuclear companies have chosen the technology they will use. Those Chinese component manufacturers could supply their components in the UK," Stone told China Daily.

"In the UK, the three companies who are planning to build new nuclear plants are EdF, Horizon and NuGeneration," he said.

"The easy way [for China] to get into the UK is through their partnership with Westinghouse or Areva," he added.

Stone also said that China's nuclear development will slow down in the next two to three years, but in the long term the country will pick up the pace because it needs clean, cheap energy to cut its reliance on the polluting oil and coal.

The State Council, the country's cabinet, decided on March 16 to halt new approvals for nuclear projects.

Germany and Switzerland have both announced they will shut down all their nuclear power plants because of the nuclear crisis in Japan.

"The decision will not affect the UK. If the country doesn't use nuclear power, the cost of power generation will increase 40 to 50 percent," he said.

China currently has six nuclear power plants in operation, across the eastern and southern coasts. It intends to build several inland nuclear power plants, in provinces such as Hubei, Hunan, Jiangxi and Jilin.

Lin Chengge, former deputy director of the National Nuclear Safety Administration, previously told China Daily that the country is expected to issue a nuclear safety plan in August, after which it will resume the approval process.

Chinese nuclear power developers China GD Power Development Co Ltd and China Guangdong Nuclear Power Group are continuing cooperation for new projects, indicating their confidence in the clean energy.

Most recently, the two companies agreed to jointly build three nuclear plants in Jilin province.

China set a target of nuclear power production capacity reaching 86 gigawatts (gW) in 2020, from the current 10.8 gW, and nuclear power is set to be increased to 5 percent of total energy output by 2020, up from 1 percent now.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby saip » 09 Jul 2011 05:36

You mean the EXPLODING KIND like you did to Pakistan, the taller than the mountain of whatever and deeper than the ocean of %%%?

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Ambar » 09 Jul 2011 06:02

ravi_ku wrote:Nonsense, does the US report its debt liabilities adding up the debt of california and all its local govts, along with the debts of citibank, boa etc..??


If i remember right, the total US debt (household,munis,states,fed etc) as a % of GDP was close to 375%. Then again, doing a similar math India and many other countries would probably be in the same range. The biggest difference is with the unfunded liabilities in US thanks to social security and medicare. Atleast the GoI does not have those obligations ( not that we don't have programs just that our govt doesn't give two hoots about people and most sane people never trust the govt).

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Ambar » 09 Jul 2011 06:04

saip wrote:You mean the EXPLODING KIND like you did to Pakistan, the taller than the mountain of whatever and deeper than the ocean of %%%?


Don't you realize they are Panda drones ? They are practically like web bots,they don't read but just post to keep their masters happy and meet the monthly quota. Propaganda plays a huge role in commie regimes.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2011 06:39

I recall seeing pic of that kind of crane in rotterdam in a book published in 1982. named heerma and veerma, they were lifting a 3000t buoy.
the Lanjing is only #5 in the global "who has the thickest penis" show off table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_vessel

so work to do for you drones. we are not dhoti shivering on this one.

and the look of that bullet train is state-of-art - for 1995 :(( , havent you seen the prestigious next-gen trains operating in japan and france and attempted to clone that look ?

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/entryi ... kansen.jpg
vs
http://heizerrenderom.files.wordpress.c ... -china.jpg

tsk tsk = close , but not good enough :rotfl: "loss of face"

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby wong » 09 Jul 2011 07:19

^^^^

Lookup CRH 400 which has been out and CRH-X Cobra.

Should we only post negative stories on the Chinese Economy here??
I post a story about the new Chongqing-Duisburg railway (which will be huge economically) and I get crickets.

Personally, I visit here because I want the different/opposing viewpoint.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Gus » 09 Jul 2011 07:33

ravi_ku wrote:and you are putting those propagandu photos instead of links because??


don't bother. he never replies. i suspect its a drone..wouldn't be surprised if he does not even know english and probably copies posts across multiple forums like this.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby anishns » 09 Jul 2011 07:58

X-posting from PRC thread (credit GKakkad)

Wong xiānsheng

Perhaps you should take a peek at this too



It's in your own language....and seriously do you think showing us these trains(concepts) is going to impress us? :P
When people over here have been discussing the viability of such massive state sponsored projects for over a decade!

Perhaps, instead of wasting time on this forum your time will be well spent protesting the Dalai Lama visit to DC

Beijing Condemns Dalai Lama’s U.S. Visit

And by the way....please to alert your hacker drones to take on this website

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/aboutus.html
Its causing major loss of face to the domain of Empelol Hu!

wong wrote:^^^^
Lookup CRH 400 which has been out and CRH-X Cobra.

Should we only post negative stories on the Chinese Economy here??
I post a story about the new Chongqing-Duisburg railway (which will be huge economically) and I get crickets.

Personally, I visit here because I want the different/opposing viewpoint.


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