PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

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Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Jul 2011 09:45

Harbans,

Its not just India. Even in Africa the Chinese seem reluctant to return home. Esp. after they taste some freedom.

The was a story in the Libya dhagga about several Chinese families that are staying in Libya through the civil war as they don't want to go back home. Even the single male workers picked up then dispersed into Europe and Middle East on other projects. Few went back.

In a few years this group that has experienced outside freedoms will become a deep force for change within Pandaland. My prediction.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Abhijeet » 20 Jul 2011 12:39

Apple: it's not just for developed countries any more.

Apple’s Tim Cook: “China Was Very Key To Our Results.”
http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/19/apples ... ur-results

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby shynee » 21 Jul 2011 21:37


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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Purush » 23 Jul 2011 19:43

cheeni 'bullet train' derails.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ridge.html
Image
The Chinese D train derailed with two of its carriages falling off a bridge. The number of casualties, however, is still unknown, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

The train, travelling from Hangzhou to Wenzhou, went off the rails in eastern China's Zhejiang province around 8:30pm (1230 GMT), it reported, citing local firefighting sources.

The D train represents China's first-generation bullet trains. Running on regular track, they are capable of travelling at 150kph and are not part of the new high-speed network.

China is spending billions on building a high-speed rail network, with Premier Wen Jiabao on June 30 formally opening a flagship $33 billion line from Beijing to Shanghai.

That line has suffered problems with delays caused by power outages, sparking a slew of criticism online and in Chinese media.

The huge investment has made the sector a hotbed for corruption. China's state auditor has said construction companies and individuals last year siphoned off 187 million yuan ($29 million) from the Beijing-Shanghai project.


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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 23 Jul 2011 20:27

^^ What a terrible tragedy.

The Ukstani rag coyly mentions:
The number of casualties, however, is still unknown, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

Well, it'll never be known. And they bloody well know it.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 23 Jul 2011 20:29

Deleted. An accident is an accident.
Last edited by Suraj on 23 Jul 2011 22:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please be more sensitive.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 23 Jul 2011 23:16

The thing has just crumpled. I saw a 18 dead so far number.

Just a comment. You see the problem with the Viaduct idea. The passengers are trapped. Thank heavens there was no fire or they would have all been doomed.

Also now it is hellishly difficult for rescue to even get near the site. Here we are hours latter and there does not seem to be any proper access, esp. to the dangling coach and the viaduct. The golden hour is unfortunately over for many of the trapped.

If we do HSR, we should make sure it is largely on the ground.

Image

P.S. More thoughts. The quality of that viaduct and column is pretty pathetic if you ask me. When running at 300 kmph+ tolerances should be down in the 1 mm or better range. Yes, this is possible even with 60 tonne concrete beams. Takes patience, money and a lot of care and some more money. It is one thing to build cheap for a Metro rail system the rarely exceeds 80 kmph. Completely different to build for 300 kmph HSR system. For one the the energies involved are 10 times more. An apple that hit you with a force of 5 Kg at 80 kmph will now hit you with a force of 50 kg at 300 kmph. Non-survivable impact. That is not a 300 kmph type infrastructure. No other country in the world would allow such speeds on such shoddy construction.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 24 Jul 2011 01:18, edited 1 time in total.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Jul 2011 00:40

22 dead(edit) 32 dead and still rising. :( Feel for the Chinese people.

I've been thinking about this some more and I don't buy the lightning argument. Sounds like typical H/D coverage. How is it that the signaling system failed as well. It has been pointed out many times that the Chinese HSR appears to be using a 1 km block length type control system. This allows them to run trains with minimal headway. This signal system is NOT suitable for HSR lines. In fact it is not suitable for speeds over 200 kmph. We will have to wait for the final report but I suspect the entire signal system may have to be re-analyzed.

In other thoughts it staggering that they have had such a major accident so soon. Most HSR systems have operated for decades before a single fatality. This thing has dedicated tracks, no mixed traffic, brand new signaling, train sets and infrastructure and yet here we are...

Another thought, they are doomed in the international market now. No one will buy a Chinese HSR system anymore...

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Jul 2011 01:24

More thoughts.

How the hell does a lightning strike de-rail a train. Looks like it derailed due to shoddy construction. Signalling failed and the following train plowed into it. Anti-Climbing technology failed. Coaches climbed then rolled over. Coaches did not have crumple zones or anti-telescoping frame technology and appear to have pancaked into the ground. It is remarkable how flimsy the coaches are esp. at the speeds they are running.

All in all failure after failure. Any independent report will be scathing so I suspect we wont get one.

I still can get over how shoddy that Viaduct is, looks like cheap ass Bangalore Metro. Of course we didn't spend $32 Billion on the Bangalore metro.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby wong » 24 Jul 2011 01:58

^^^^

Did you even read the article?
"Running on regular track, they are capable of travelling at 150kph and are not part of the new high-speed network."

Real HSR in China goes from 300 to 380kph. The trains that broke down was purchased from Bombardier. The train that collided with it was Japanese. Ask the Canadian why they can't make reliable trains.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby rsingh » 24 Jul 2011 02:09

wong wrote:^^^^

Did you even read the article?
"Running on regular track, they are capable of travelling at 150kph and are not part of the new high-speed network."

Real HSR in China goes from 300 to 380kph. The trains that broke down was purchased from Bombardier. The train that collided with it was Japanese. Ask the Canadian why they can't make reliable trains.


Knew that.........Chinese things can never fail. It is all Japanese and Canadian bad bad train :(( Ask Bakis why 150 Chinese maid locomotives are biting dust.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby wong » 24 Jul 2011 02:15

rsingh wrote:Knew that.........Chinese things can never fail. It is all Japanese and Canadian bad bad train :(( Ask Bakis why 150 Chinese maid locomotives are biting dust.


Did I say Chinese things can never fail?? In this case, the trains weren't Chinese nor was the rail high speed. They were running on regular tracks not even connected to the high speed network.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Jul 2011 03:07

rsingh,

The ding-dong is a troll. This is SOP here to divert the conversation down foxhole. Expect them to show up in force to change the conversation..

Ignore.

Meanwhile.... ..I keep looking for better quality images...

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Jul 2011 03:21

First responder crew in bare feet even. Have bullet train but no emergency equipment...
Talk about leaving your people to fend for themselves.

Image

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby ashashi » 24 Jul 2011 03:39

Theo_Fidel wrote:More thoughts.

How the hell does a lightning strike de-rail a train. Looks like it derailed due to shoddy construction. Signalling failed and the following train plowed into it. Anti-Climbing technology failed. Coaches climbed then rolled over. Coaches did not have crumple zones or anti-telescoping frame technology and appear to have pancaked into the ground. It is remarkable how flimsy the coaches are esp. at the speeds they are running.

All in all failure after failure. Any independent report will be scathing so I suspect we wont get one.

I still can get over how shoddy that Viaduct is, looks like cheap ass Bangalore Metro. Of course we didn't spend $32 Billion on the Bangalore metro.


sure, lightening strike story doesnt seem credible. Neither the girders nor the columns look wet.

What faults exactly are you finding in the construction quality from those images?
Please elaborate.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Jul 2011 04:36

Here's a more detailed image of the viaduct.
Image

Just for comparison I'm posting an image from a TGV viaduct.
Image

Both are segmental viaducts. If anything the TGV is more complicated because of the under-arched flange form.

- Note the horizontal joint across segments. This is due to poor batch control. Concrete batches are not being tested for consistency with the previous batch. This reduces tolerances long term.
- Look at the joint between segments. The uneven quality of it. This speaks of poor quality control. In massaland such precast segments are QC'ed for dimensional accuracy before leaving factory. I can guarantee such a segment would be rejected on the spot. I've done it my self for far less.
- If you look carefully you can see some line like streaks on the underside of the viaduct flange. Typically this indicates inadequate re-bar cover. Lack of use of manufactured re-bar spacers.
- If you look very carefully you can see regular dimples on the TGV segment. Typically these are form tie-backs that both hold the form-work to exact tolerance (wet concrete is very very heavy) and also hold re-bar in place to provide exact cover. That pandaland one is a very shoddy viaduct if it did not use spacers.
- Look at at edges of the viaduct underside. Some is sharp & some rounded. There is about 10 different things that appear to be wrong. The big ones I can call out are inadequate vibration (esp. of formwork), inadequate curing (esp. steam curing which is literally mandatory for such projects) and lack of use of modern expensive form liners.

I could go on & on, but I'll leave it at that.

All of these speak very poorly for the life and stability of this viaduct. Now weak tolerances are not a problem in say a mass metro where speeds are low. But once you get beyond 150 kmph there can be no guarantees WRT to life and safety.

If anyone comes across more high quality images please let me know.

I have been collecting an archive of Panda construction quality images from the 1980's onwards to see their construction technology level.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 24 Jul 2011 08:49

^^^ what did they spend their 95 billion on then?

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 24 Jul 2011 11:55

it will not be possible to fix such issues on a big scale of infra , perhaps the workaround is reduce the speed of the bullet trains / other trains to what the infra can safely bear long term and more frequent inspections. but this kind of hits the USP of the whole spending binge which is speed speed speed.

will need a brave decision from very top levels to make that call. and either way some 'korrupt officials' id'ed by the speedy and secret inquiry which must now be in progress can expect either a firing squad or a permanent stay in jail.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby ashashi » 24 Jul 2011 18:08

China Train Wreck Raises Questions

Photos on the popular Weibo microblogging service showed backhoes burying the wrecked train near the site. Critics said the wreckage needed to be carefully examined for causes of the malfunction, but the railway ministry said that the trains contain valuable national technology and could not be left in the open in case it fell into the wrong hands.

Foreign companies maintain that some crucial technology was stolen from their imported trains. But more importantly to domestic audiences is the perception of a coverup. Initial reports of how the accident occurred are already being partly contradicted by reports in the official media.

The Railway Ministry issued a statement Saturday night that said the first train had been struck by lightning and lost power. It did not explain why the second train was not signaled to stop. In addition, new reports on Xinhua indicate that the first train had started to move by the time it was struck. The ministry has not explained the discrepency.

The wreck is one of several high-profile public transportation accidents in China recently. Early Friday, 41 people died when an overloaded bus caught fire in central China’s Henan province.

Earlier this month, an escalator at a subway station in Beijing collapsed, killing one and injuring 28. Last week alone, four bridges collapsed in various Chinese cities.

Signaling government concern over growing public unease, the government issued a directive Saturday calling for “intensified efforts in preventing major deadly accidents.”

Discussion of accidents in China, however, is haphazard. In an unusually frank editorial in the Communist Party paper, People’s Daily earlier this month, a commentator said China needed “zero tolerance for concealing major accidents.” But the commentator said many disasters are covered up, such as a major oil spill that was hidden from public view for over a month.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby ashashi » 24 Jul 2011 18:44

WRAPUP 1-China factory sector shrinks, IMF finds world worried

* China flash HSBC PMI falls to 48.9, shows factory contraction

* New orders falling on weak demand, index hits 12-month low

* IMF reports China's trading partners worry about hard landing

* Factory prices rebound in July, signalling inflation pressure

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 24 Jul 2011 18:56

Photos on the popular Weibo microblogging service showed backhoes burying the wrecked train near the site. Critics said the wreckage needed to be carefully examined for causes of the malfunction, but the railway ministry said that the trains contain valuable national technology and could not be left in the open in case it fell into the wrong hands.

wow this is taking the "no loss of face" to absurd lengths. so the trains must have been local 'clones' of imported EU/Japan rolling stock and they do not want to call in experts from these vendors for post-crash analysis probably because these said experts would get to know the +ve and -ve of the cloned products...

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 24 Jul 2011 19:00


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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby kancha » 24 Jul 2011 19:15

ashashi wrote:China Train Wreck Raises Questions

... Last week alone, four bridges collapsed in various Chinese cities....

Discussion of accidents in China, however, is haphazard. In an unusually frank editorial in the Communist Party paper, People’s Daily earlier this month, a commentator said China needed “zero tolerance for concealing major accidents.” But the commentator said many disasters are covered up, such as a major oil spill that was hidden from public view for over a month.


What about the weeks before the last week?? :eek:

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 24 Jul 2011 20:18

wong wrote:Did I say Chinese things can never fail?? In this case, the trains weren't Chinese nor was the rail high speed. They were running on regular tracks not even connected to the high speed network.


From the NY Times article.

Photos on the popular Weibo microblogging service showed backhoes burying the wrecked train near the site. Critics said the wreckage needed to be carefully examined for causes of the malfunction, but the railway ministry said that the trains contain valuable national technology and could not be left in the open in case it fell into the wrong hands.


How come a Canadian and Japanese "imported" train set have "valuable national technology that cannot be left int he open" and why this ridiculous "burying the wrecked train near the site" , it is barely hours after the accident and they are already burying the train to destroy evidence. No way in hell can you do a decent root cause analysis of the accident once you bury it!

Shame. Shame. This is taking the farce to the absurd. This reminds me of "hosing down the scene of Benazir Bhutto's murder using fire hoses, right after the incident! These things happen only in places like Pakistan and China. A made for each other pair I suppose.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 24 Jul 2011 20:28

Singha wrote:http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/07/24/idINIndia-58420920110724

three top railway officials sacked.


The Reuters link says that the trains were Chinese built! But it is surprising that if there is a total power outage (along the overhead line that supplies it I mean), how come the trains behind the stopped train on the line didn't stop as well ? How come they kept moving and slam in to the stalled train.

It looks like that the train ahead stalled /broke down completely due to some power supply malfunction, the signaling systems failed completely and didn't order the trains behind to stop and the train behind just slammed into the train ahead.

But if running at 150kmph and slamming into a stationary train and seeing that 3 to 4 bogies were smashed completely, the toll must be much higher than what the Chinese are letting on.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Shankas » 24 Jul 2011 21:27

In China, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its not a duck. It just looks like a duck.

I went back and looked at pictures of bandar and their ishtate of the art stealth fighter. They just looked a bit different today :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 25 Jul 2011 02:00

Not even a pretense of investigation is being made. Backhoe has already cleared everything. Dangling coach was jack hammered/saw cut off viaduct with hundreds of workers. In another day there will be no sign of even an accident.

Scape goats have already been identified and shot. Without any investigation. Welcome to Pandaland, enjoy your stay.

Meanwhile, a fascinating little account....

http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/21/13951/

In early 2009, as high-speed rail was the subject of much talk in China, Zhao Jian went on a trip to India. India was a country, like China a major developing nation, that was generally recognized as a railway giant (铁路大国), with a railway network far surpassing that of China. Moreover, India was one of just two countries in the world operating its railways under a joint government-enterprise system (政企合一体制), the other such country being China. But all major investment projects in the railway sector in India, and even end-of-year business programs (年度经营计划), had to be submitted for deliberation by the Indian National Congress to await approval or rejection.

Zhao Jian learned that India’s Ministry of Railways planned to build a high-speed rail line from [India's] largest city, Mumbai, to Ahmadabad [in the state of Gujarat], with a speed of close to 250 km/hr, forming an important part of the line from Mumbai to the capital of New Delhi, similar in length to the Shanghai-Nanjing section of the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Rail.

But a study by the well-known [infrastructure] consulting company Rites [under the Government of India] had found that this special passenger line was not commensurate with India’s national needs, with average incomes not sufficient to support the ticket prices [necessary for] the high-speed line; but if a special freight transport line were built, the return on investment would be around 11 percent. The Indian National Congress had ultimately approved a budget proposal for the construction of a 10,000-kilometer freight transport line. After he returned to China, Zhao Jian put the lessons he had learned in India into a published article, suggesting that China follow the lesson of India, building a special freight transport line rather than a special passenger line.

The article drew the attention of [railway minister] Liu Zhijun. On two occasions, Liu Zhijun sought Zhao Jian’s supervisor, former Beijing Jiaotong University President Tan Zhenhui (谭振辉) to ask, “What is all this about?” The old president had responded: “First of all, I did not encourage him to write [the articles]; second, we must permit scholars to express different views.” Unable to come to any understanding, Tan left [Liu's office] just 10 minutes later.

Tan Zhenhui didn’t discuss the exchanges with Zhao Jian after he got back, but after some time had passed said to him: “If you write things like this, it will affect the ability of the university to get [research] topic [grants from the government].” To which the unbending Zhao Jian responded to the university president: “Compared to the damage to our country, this impact is something that should be borne, don’t you think?” The president said nothing more.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 25 Jul 2011 04:58

Theo_Fidel wrote:Meanwhile, a fascinating little account....

http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/21/13951/


And it is now generally known, of course, that the bill for the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Rail surpasses that of the Three Gorges Dam.
:shock: :shock:

Amazing. I thought the 3 gorges dam was a class apart in scale, size, waste and terrible ecological effects and displacement on a gargantuan scale, in cost wise at least the High Speed Rail seems to have surpassed it.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 25 Jul 2011 07:46

looking at the slapdash 17th century manner in which flyovers are constructed in bangalore, I sure hope some decent QC is being done on the long metro viaducts....granted they wont bear the same load, but we could avoid 'incidents' of this nature....having a 100t concrete segment drop down on rush hr traffic is scary.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 25 Jul 2011 08:41

Ouch! Japanese Expert says hard to imagine China's train accident in Japan

That article says that the the cloned Bombardier train was rear ended by a cloned Kawasaki train. But what is perplexing is how the ATC/ATS failed !

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby abhischekcc » 25 Jul 2011 10:29

It could be sabotage as well. The descriptions above indicate mutiple failures of equipment. Power supply, anti collision, signalling systems. I wonder what material the train was carrying.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby niran » 25 Jul 2011 11:55

in bangkokabad one diplomat was heard talking with straight face about sabotage from see yai yea and an agency which cannot be named, the diplomat janab also bato bato mai said that the low body count was due to low number of passenger, then when it hit him tried rectifying it with that it was non rush hour hence low passenger count but mean spirited see yai yea agints masquerading as reporter would not listen.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby abhischekcc » 25 Jul 2011 15:53

Mutiple equipment/systems failure are not normal. Usually, only one system fails. Mutilple failure indicates (but not confirm) human intervention.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby ashashi » 25 Jul 2011 17:17



Bloomberg ticker tape
China shutdown two apple stores for operating without license.
LOL
When it gets hot, claim the fake apple stores are "operating without license". H&D saved.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Theo_Fidel » 25 Jul 2011 20:37

http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/?utm ... um=twitter

But propaganda directives leaked online suggest Chinese authorities are doing their utmost to play on the emotions of the public, building a story about tragedy overcome. Their answer to real questions and concerns is to peddle more feel-good nonsense.

The directives read:

“On the Wenzhou train collision accident, various media must report information from the Ministry of Railways in a timely manner, media from various regions must not send reporters [to the scene] to report the story, and child papers and magazines as well as websites must especially be managed well [EDITOR'S NOTE: This refers to commercial newspapers and magazines like Southern Metropolis Daily and Caijing]. Links must not be made to the development of the high-speed rail, and reports looking back (反思性报道) must not be done.” [EDITOR'S NOTE: Reports "looking back" refer to reports that investigate the causes of an event and make suggestions, for example, about government responsibility.]

“Latest demands on the Wenzhou train collision accident: 1. Figures on the number of dead must follow numbers from authoritative departments; 2. Frequency of reports must not be too dense; 3. More reporting should be done on stories that are extremely moving, for example people donating blood and taxi drivers not accepting fares; 4. There must be no seeking after the causes [of the accident], rather, statements from authoritative departments must be followed; 5. No looking back and no commentary.

” . . . From now on, the Wenzhou train accident should be reported along the theme of ‘major love in the face of major disaster’. No calling into doubt, no development [of further issues], no speculation, and no dissemination [of such things] on personal microblogs! . . . ”


The culture of propaganda that has defined the railway ministry’s response after and leading up to the July 23

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 25 Jul 2011 20:59

vina wrote:Ouch! Japanese Expert says hard to imagine China's train accident in Japan

That article says that the the cloned Bombardier train was rear ended by a cloned Kawasaki train. But what is perplexing is how the ATC/ATS failed !


Hope this cloned technology is not being considered for any future HSR dreams in India.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2011 00:09

They will, 'cause desi babooze will only bother about the deal and under the hood transactions.


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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby DavidD » 26 Jul 2011 12:43

vina wrote:Ouch! Japanese Expert says hard to imagine China's train accident in Japan

That article says that the the cloned Bombardier train was rear ended by a cloned Kawasaki train. But what is perplexing is how the ATC/ATS failed !


Your question hits it on the point. Poor governance and corruption is the root cause of this tragedy. Here's what I posted on The Diplomat:

I don’t think HSR is inherently dangerous, but when you mix new technology with poor governance and corruption, the results can be disastrous as we can see here. Unfortunately, it will be a long time before the Chinese government is systematically altered and cleaned up, if ever. Before then, terrible man-made disasters like this HST collision and the tainted baby formula scandal previously will happen again and again.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 26 Jul 2011 13:14

a nice 10 min video of a CRH train interior...good piece of kit...its just that the steady speed of 340kmph seems to be running way faster than the 275kmph reco of kawasaki who secured a written letter and washed their hands off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If-fQtpCdFs&feature=fvst

impressive civic sense in keeping the stations and toilets quite neat.


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