States News and Discussions

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arshyam
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by arshyam »

Theo/Bade saars: I don't think anyone is saying KL folks aren't hard-working, just that the political environment inside KL state makes it labour unfriendly relative to neighbouring states. Professionals from KL are as hard working as anyone else, which is why they are spread all over India. Kerala perhaps is the most well connected state in the Indian Railways network, reflecting this phenomenon. And frankly, this is not too different from TN as well. And even in TN, till the eighties folks used to leave home and seek jobs outside the state for better prospects. Hence the large number of Tamil speakers in parts of Delhi and Mumbai, leading to the mythical story of Bal Thackeray finding 5 pages of 'Subramaniams' in the telephone directory in Bombay. Now that economic conditions in TN has improved by leaps and bounds, this migration has significantly reduced, maybe except in IT-vity to Bangalore/Hyd. There is now a high amount of inbound labour in TN - heck, these days, one has to order idlis in Hindi in some restaurants in Chennai!
Bade wrote:TN will always have more industries as a variety of conditions suit it, but KL will continue to enjoy a higher standard of living overall. Deal with it and do not bring extraneous arguments like Nooku-kooli to bolster your case.
Bade saar, you are right in saying that KL won't have large industries the way TN has. It needn't - for KL has other things going for it, like tourism, which are also labour intensive and not industrial. Not to mention the lack of land to industrialize. And yes, every state needs to find its own way. However, on what basis are you saying that KL will always have a higher standard of living? A good chunk of the std of living comes from Gulf based remittances, but can we assume it will keep increasing forever w.r.t. the Indian economy? Long term std of living depends on asset creation through capital investments, and KL not investing in those will get impacted in the long term. Of course, Keralites will have a high standard of living as they can and do vote with their feet, but that doesn't mean KL state will always benefit. If you have some data to explain this observation, please do share, I am curious how it will work.

P.S. I am not grudging KL's higher std of living, so no issues in dealing with it :). Just curious about 10-20 years into the future.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by SaraLax »

Bade wrote:SaraLax, did you bother to read what I wrote. TN geo advantages are rooted right from British days of doing business. Two other capitals come to mind who played ahead with this advantage. Listing a whole lot of industries built over more than a century of industrial foundation and berating KL as communists does not make an argument. KL has found a better model to use its educated populace. It is no different that outsourcing one sees in the IT field today. One model does not suit all. Do not expect people from KL to work for wages below that paid in TN, when they have better options. Smarter ones always vote with their feet and move where the opportunities are. You seem to paint every Keralite as waiting for Nooku-kooli. Ridiculous argument with no basis. What is the percentage of non-skilled labourers required in today's industrial world and going into the future.

TN will always have more industries as a variety of conditions suit it, but KL will continue to enjoy a higher standard of living overall. Deal with it and do not bring extraneous arguments like Nooku-kooli to bolster your case.
Whatever sir ... geography you said first and now attaching British rule to it. I fail to understand your viewpoint? ... what about the progressive rule of Travancore maharaja in Kerala during British colonial rule of India ?. Is that not something to take into account.

Lets forget about Industries ... KL lost out on exploiting its latent power & first-off-the-blocks advantage to go big on engineering design, product R&D and IT front. If KL is giving away its educated folks to other states nearby and to US/EU/Gulf and etc - i guess nobody is complaining. I felt that this happened due to too much communism seeping into the heart of Keralites. I respect your opinion on KL continuing to enjoy a higher standard but at the same time its is my humble opinion that TN, in next few decades, will overtake KL on that front too. We can agree to disagree. Let us wait & see how the states move ahead - dealing with their future.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by SaraLax »

Bade wrote:Regarding LNG pipeline issue, that has been resolved only recently. Even TN CM JJ was putting up obstacles for the pass through TN to KA as I recall. So it is not entirely the fault of local land acquisition issues in KL alone. The Hindu had some articles on it many months ago. This was TN playing hardball to protect their interests. But why put all the fault at KL's doorstep always. No one is denying issues that really exist. Land is expensive, holdings are small and people are not willing to part with it. Keep in mind flat land in KL is not more than 10-20 km wide in most places as it is hemmed in by the ghats. There is no where else for people to go. No one owns 30-40 acres like in other states, except the estate owners in the hills.
Sir - Shall we get the pipes laid with in KL's state boundaries first and then talk of the case against GAIL filed by TN SG in Supreme court ?.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by Bade »

Arshyam, the argument of gulf remittances is similar to argument of IT remittances. If H1B program is curtailed and US puts a clamp on any IT imports from India, what will result. But we all know it is not going to happen.
The NRK population in the ME is even less than than the total NRI population in US alone. As I said many of these folks are migrating out of ME to North America and will keep the remittances coming strong for years to come. Then there are inward remittances from other states in India back to Kerala too. So it will not fall short there, except some cyclical features but all industry have their ups and down.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by Theo_Fidel »

arshyam wrote:Professionals from KL are as hard working as anyone else, which is why they are spread all over India.
And highly sought after too. People in India trust quality of education KL folks receive. I wouldn't worry too much of what happens after gelf. :) Skilled people are always fought over and invited everywhere to make a home. They will do fine. Worry more about the rest of India that is unskilled, unemployable and often unwanted everywhere. That is the real horror show.

WRT political environment have you seen the political situation in the rest of India states? Esp. in the heartland. People are still moving to the same handful of areas, Bengluru, Mumbai, Chennai, Delhi and then decrying KL. No one, from say, Jharkhand looks down on KL political environment WRT business or for that matter anything else.

Lets take it one more step, what has Karnataka done with its West coast with its presumed better politics or for that matter even Maharashtra with its Konkan area. Lower income than KL is what....
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by arshyam »

Theo saar, the discussion so far was on TN and KL, if you bring in JH and all, what to do onlee. The northern states are of course worse off, and need some strong medicine. Till then, I will have to order my idlis in Hindi :((

Bade saar, so what you seem to be saying is: KL's high std of living will be sustained by remittances onlee and will increase due to migration to even greener pastures. That's a big assumption - when Yemen was evacuated, I remember everyone made a beeline back home, not to EU or NA. Why would the latter take them in specifically over other desis? In any case, what you say applies to Keralites as individuals, which I originally postulated as well. My question was, how will KL as a state sustain its std of living just based on remittances?

IT-vity is different. Many desis have settled down in the west as PIO/OCIs (too many IMO, but that's a different story). NRIs are only a portion of that population. And states like TN and AP have enough economic clout to reabsorb them if such a situation arises. They also have domestic IT-vity investments to keep things going. But the NRKs in Gulf are NRIs onlee, so if something happens like Yemen, only option is to head back home. And is home (KL) able to absorb these returnees, many of them being skilled engineers/technicians? This is what I was alluding to. My guess is, KL can absorb only a small number, and the remaining returnees will settle in other states, which will gain at Kerala's expense. Long term, KL won't be able to sustain its lead on std of living just on remittances alone.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by Theo_Fidel »

The comment was more in terms of the folks who attack the whole of KL on this basis...

My own opinion is nothing should be done without union labor in a union state. People who use non-union labor should be fined and asked to redo the work with union labor. This is normal practice in civilized states. Nooku Kooli is folks taking short cuts to save a few bucks and then buying off the indulgence of the union. It is wrong, immoral and in the long term detrimental to the nation. The first mistake that was done is to not to use union labor and follow the law. Of course it should be said that it is not easy to get union fellows to do the work quickly. But that is the problem to be fixed.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by Bade »

Arshyam, you answered your own question. In the worst case remittances will increase from other states of India. Last I heard any Indian passport holder is free to work from anywhere within India. :-) There are only few job centers in India as Theo has highlighted already. Whether these centers fall in your pet linguistic domain geographically is not of much value for the nation as a whole.

My prophecy for KL is a big demographic change. More and more land will be not affordable to most and they will settle elsewhere. Others with bag full of rupees will fill in. After all the present day Keralites are also plants from the North and elsewhere in the past. I support migration as each individual seeks a better quality of life.

KL govt's job is to enable quality education for all (primary and higher) with right policies and basic medical care for a healthy population. The most I worry about in KL is alcoholism at present before anything else.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by KarthikSan »

All posters here forgot one thing in their emotional argument about TN and KL. Necessity as they say is the mother of all invention. TN has always been the rain shadows state and agriculture with the exception of the Cauvery delta areas has been marginal forcing people to find other means of survival. This is the reason why west TN districts like Coimbatore, Tirupur, Erode, Namakkal and Karur are industrially developed. None of these regions have huge government projects or PSUs like Chennai or Bengaluru, even Trichy for that matter. People are self made and the only reason was there was no other means of survival. Disclosure: I'm from Coimbatore and my ancestors are from Namakkal. So I do have a soft corner for both districts. Just my 2 Paisa.
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Post by Singha »

kerala imo could make a move like pondicherry and goa has done - it can do higher end light and precision manufacturing if land parcels are a problem. pharma - medicines and consumabales, food products, machine parts(TN is strong there), good quality textiles, KPO/BPO ... with population growth under control it can be done.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Sachin »

Bade wrote:Yes, Theo I can see that in the many posts. A bit of pride in the home-state is understandable even for me, but outright lies to make a case should be questioned.
Perfectly agree with you :). In fact after hearing about KL people cribbing about Pandees (slang for Tamils), coming in large number to KL during the 1980s for physical labour and how they are unclean and spoil the whole state is still fresh in my memory. Today the Pandees are replaced with Bhayees, slang for Bihari and Bengali labour. Just responded to a whine from an "intellectual" who said the migrant labour was making the state filthy, and many of them are criminals & drug addicts. My advice was that if KL folks found this a a big concern - either ensure that the migrant labour gets a decent accommodation at the labour contractor's expense, or else figure out a way to get the work using Keralite labour force.
Theo_Fidel wrote:My own opinion is nothing should be done without union labor in a union state. People who use non-union labor should be fined and asked to redo the work with union labor.
There is a saying in Malayalam which reads - "Even Amruth (nectar of life) if consumed too much, is injurious to life". Perhaps that is what happened with communism in Kerala. It created a society which is egalitarian etc. (the good part), but it completely ignored the responsibility part. Kerala, may be the first place which had unions of head-load workers. When it was formed, it was required. Or else this organised sector can be pitted against each other, and forced to work on poor wages. But today, a member ship to this union (based on a kind of "pass"), itself requires a couple of lakhs. And these workers have not done any thing to reinvent themselves. They are still living in a world where every peace of item can be carried on a person's head. I know cases where Nokku kooli was paid for bringing down huge server boxes using small cranes, and moving it using forklifts etc. The "head load" workers, were they expecting that they would get the contract to carry this heavy piece on their heads? Using your own analogy - how about these workers union re-skilling their workers to use modern equipments - like forklifts? And then let them demand that their services have to be used.

One observation from my side. People who have moved around various places seems to be more accommodative to cultural changes etc. Where as people who have remained in one state, seems to just take extra ordinary pride in their own respective state.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by geeth »

The latest was an American throwing away his sculptors brought for Binale festival. The head load workers demanded Rs 60000 for 10 card board boxes...and the American decided it was better to throw it (his own creation) than pay these goons. For posterity, he took a video the destruction of sculptors, gave a narration and put it in youtube.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by durairaaj »

^ I did not believe, when I read the above. But it seems it 's happened.
have a look at the video in the link below.
American Destroying part of his creations
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

Sachin, I cant be polite here - you loathe your malayalee background to an embarrassing level and feels a constant need to use even positive and factual things like "100% literate state" as vile epithets :( I mean, we all have issues against communism (I have physical scars from my past tussles with the Left), but you have issues against other people too, struggling against all odds, while you are peacefully sitting outside Kerala, letting loose what in Trivandrum lingo is called "contrakk" (slang for the road contractor types who come with a diary in the armpit and talks stuff that has no basis on the work getting done by the road workers)

I deal with Labour departments (of Kerala, TN and KA at various points till now), as part of my life here and admit that Kerala labour department is one of the best run (particularly under the current minister, a prince-ling that did not turn into a frog as is the norm nowadays) in India. It does take care of a lot of issues on both labour side and the contractor/houseowner side. For example, here is something that should poke a hole through your attempt at making "malayalees are chronically xenophobic".
My advice was that if KL folks found this a a big concern - either ensure that the migrant labour gets a decent accommodation at the labour contractor's expense, or else figure out a way to get the work using Keralite labour force.
So your advice is based on a level of ignorance, since there is already a policy (IIRC, not yet law due to scheduling) that is being implemented by a GO.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 902317.ece
Kerala is the first State in the country to enact a social security scheme for the migrant workers. While a comprehensive legislation for migrants’ welfare is still in the works, the Kerala Migrant Workers Welfare Scheme 2010 was the beginning. The scheme provides a registered migrant four benefits: accident/ medical care for up to ₹25,000; in case of death, ₹1 lakh to the family; children’s education allowance; and termination benefits of ₹25,000 after five years of work. When a worker dies, the welfare fund provides for the embalming of the body and air transportation.
The migrant workers are not treated with anything but respect for the job they do, despite some jibing about language et al. I have three Odissa brothers, who worked along with my main contractor and I did not see any discrimination, other than the Odissa brothers making fun of the horrible hindi by one of the electricians. I told them that their Odissa hindi is way crappier than mine (which itself SHQ makes fun) and we all laughed a bit. That is just one example, wherein things are taken in a camaraderie fashion, when "men actually work", instead of coming out with blanket statements on behalf of a state, that they are hardly invested in.

I see lots of NE (hospitality, personal grooming etc), Bengali (manual, unskilled), Odissa (semi to skilled), Bihari (woodworking) and Tamil (masonry) migrants around me. No one treats them like crap. Not even the hard-nosed contractor I used. He is an a-hole with everyone, when it comes to money. And he is protective of all his labourers, whenever there is a tiff between him and the architects.

Some of the "facts":

1) In Kerala, as per Labour department, all residential goods, being delivered or loaded from a residence is exempt from union rights-of-action

2) "nokkukooli" exists in various forms, around the world, where there were land/labour reforms. Organized labour has a habit of implementing their own half-assed version of a "social security" system. This is one such. Eg: take a look at the TFTA Boston's Bricklayer Union agreements or US' notorious public utilities/metro company unions.

nokkukuli is a bargain mechanism at this point. Labour department publishes a nice little booklet, which says clearly, which is your Labour section and 24 hr cellphones of the local Labour Officer. If you feel intimidated, the LO will write a letter addressed to the Circle Inspector, citing Goonda Act (this is the US equivalent of Organized crime and rackeeteering), not the normal ones, to take action. The CI MUST haul in the ass of the union guys and officially warn them with arrest, counter-signing over their sign in the station complaints book. The LO will then suspend them from their union privilege for a month as warning. If you are warned under goonda act and you go back and be a prick with the complainant, things get non-bailable

So where was I? Yeah, I had a 40 foot container of some household stuff I shipped from various parts of world and when it came in to my storage place near Technopark area in two trucks, the union chaps sauntered in. They asked 50,000 Rs. I politely told them that I have

a) LO letter
b) ask them to take inventory and will pay them according to the booklet (eg: the max rate is for a sofa:90 Rs, which they have to carry 25 meters, to inside house)

They did not even bat an eyelid and said, "you can use your own people. because this is not worth it". That is right from 50k (because of my dress and car) to 0 over a booklet. Actually I knew the leader of the area and rang him to come over. I told him that they actually need to help me, since I am short of labour. So we finally got a nice human chain and got the stuff done in a hour or so. Later I took them for a biriyani (with a boiled egg, they insisted) in my car and they parted. They did not even take money from me that day. Just my address. I paid all of 7500 Rs to the seven of them (3 from CITU, 2 from INTUC and 2 from BMS). Remember there were two large trucks chock full of heavy furniture and stuff and they had to climb a floor.

The idea is to treat them as equal and with respect, not cower down. Nor act feudal. They expect either of these two behaviours and we should not indulge them.

3) Like all parts of world, union procedures and tactics are different. Likewise nokkukuli is not uniform across kerala. Alapuzha ones are the pakiest, with Trivandrum and Kochi less so. With them, you got to use the labour laws. The Malabar ones are docile, rather surprisingly and them rubber/cashew chappies are easy to talk to.

4) xenophobia exists in every part of the world, including the new meccas of liberalism, LA, SFO, NY and funky Portland. Not to mention in europe, east asia, middle-east and singapore. Our own heightened sensitiveness to certain aspects, while having a thick skin for other aspects is what causes rigid opinions to form. Mostly it is not even cultural, racial or class clash, but a tribal mentality. Kerala is no different. Will you allow an out of stater to cavort with your family member? Universally, the answer is "nope". Beyond the immediate tribe, it is merely transactional "you work, I pay"

5) There are issues of varying levels of hygiene. Eg: the Odissa brothers I mentioned above, groom impeccably and are hyper-neat, that SHQ jokes they must be gay "interior designer" types in the west. But I have seen people with sloppy personal hygeine among the migrants, due to their own circumstances or merely due to not knowing. If a chap defecates around my periphery, I will yell at him. As I will, if it is some TFTA Kerala temple priest, who had to drop a dookie before rushing to do the deeparadhana. I have seen all manners of lunch-waste being piled up by the migrant labour, if the contractor provides parcel food at the site. The kerala ones are more aware of the issues of littering the landscape, what with smaller landholdings and heavy urbanization. Not to mention alert neighbourhood resident associations These are facts that are not "epitome of xenophobia", as you are trying hard to paint

geeth, that "american throwing....blah blah" is a hit piece, run as part of "union vs govt" psyops by the anti-labour types. I asked this incident to the organizers and sponsors (I had help channel some money, so I can ask with some authority), who were more than accommodative of any needs of foreign artists. The union guys came and quoted their usual rubbish prices (like my case above), but destroying et al are good old "liberal" types who egged him on or those who have an axe to grind like that self-important Kouchouseph Chittilapally. The artist loved the publicity at the expense of those barely literate, faceless union guys. MF Hussain approach to art fame, using some hapless humans to further their career.

Added later: my most recent experience mentioned above, is at an apartment I use for storage, very close to Kazhakoottam. This is part has the "worst union issues" as per general consensus. The locale where I live (to the south) has some of the most docile union types in the state
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Vadivel »

Hnair, sorry to burst your bubble, but this is the lamest excuse i read about so called nokkukooli. If industries and normal people have to go around carrying LO letters and little booklets to not get intimated by union thugs or get half-assed work done, nope thats not how the world works. Thanks for the explanation anyway.

KL has the highest unemployment rate in india. Though this might be because of higher registration with the employment exchange.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/kera ... 39218.html

I hardly know anyone registering in employment exchanges in TN. Maybe they don't need to!
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

rhytha, there is no bubble to burst except in your mind. For example, you carry a little book called passport, with your mug. Just so "CISF, TSA and other assorted thugs" dont intimidate you. In a complex situation, where you need predictable outcomes, you carry such little books to even things out

I am not condoning anything so do not attempt a strawman. Just saying that Sachin needs to rethink how he looks like, with his constant put downs of "all things Kerala" and also that nookkukooli exists in various forms, but there are very viable ways to deal with it. Both as a house owner and as an industrialist. If you are a sloppy supervisor whom no one respects, why blame union for half-assed work?

eg: If you get an asthma, you go to medical shop in India and get the medicine that your doctor prescribed once.
If you are in US or other countries, you have no qualms in going through "reorder" routes, with cards and little books shown. Every place has its processes and procedures, which are not difficult to figure out

Edited out based on rhytha's feedback
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Vadivel »

LO letter = Passport. The rest is incomprehensible, sorry. :-?

I have a question for gurus, do employment exchange have any practical purpose?
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

That is understandable, rhytha.
Theo_Fidel

Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sachin wrote:There is a saying in Malayalam which reads - "Even Amruth (nectar of life) if consumed too much, is injurious to life". Perhaps that is what happened with communism in Kerala. It created a society which is egalitarian etc. (the good part), but it completely ignored the responsibility part. Kerala, may be the first place which had unions of head-load workers. When it was formed, it was required. Or else this organised sector can be pitted against each other, and forced to work on poor wages. But today, a member ship to this union (based on a kind of "pass"), itself requires a couple of lakhs. And these workers have not done any thing to reinvent themselves. They are still living in a world where every peace of item can be carried on a person's head. I know cases where Nokku kooli was paid for bringing down huge server boxes using small cranes, and moving it using forklifts etc. The "head load" workers, were they expecting that they would get the contract to carry this heavy piece on their heads? Using your own analogy - how about these workers union re-skilling their workers to use modern equipments - like forklifts? And then let them demand that their services have to be used.
Sachin saar,

I agree. Union labor should show some responsibility and do their work. Head load work should be outlawed in favor of more safe options. To be honest, vazhakulam trader market is all fork lifts now, only unloading delicate produce to crate is hand process. Ernakulam wholesale is all forklift now. Though final retail remains head load. I think there will remain some pockets of head load like work always. Even in the west this remains and is many times still union work.

What I would say is that every state has its own compromise on what keeps the peace and keeps business flowing. My personal experience is that I prefer the Kerala compromise to what goes on elsewhere, though as I have said personally never encountered nooku kooli. I do have some choice words for the Border check posts Keral runs, how ever and its agriculture department. Even nooku kooli keeps business flowing with a wink and a nod. At least no country pistol is flashed in my face as has happened elsewhere!!
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

Theo_Fidel wrote: Even nooku kooli keeps business flowing with a wink and a nod.
yep. Most of the time, the big retailers and industry, they deal in bulk with the district committees. If business does not happen, you get jack during election-eve fundcrunch.
At least no country pistol is flashed in my face as has happened elsewhere!!
I had heard of a batchmate say she needs FOUR ex-service gunmen, to visit some place in the badlands. Three are hired by her firm (some french chappies) and one by her father-in-law, who does not trust the three cant be bought. I guess she must be happy there are no unions to deal with
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Bade »

Hnair, a wonderful post on the state of labour relations and how it can be improved. Over the course of building our first house way back in the early 90s, when things were supposed to be totally out of control, I was surprised how smooth things were once you take them into confidence and show some respect. The whole construction activity took less than a year, the delay if any mostly due to halts from paucity of funds, rather than any labour issues. That was an eye-opener for me as well as the professionalism by contractor folks, be it RCC, electrical/plumbing etc. Each was parceled out and they came in sequence and did their jobs. Wage rates as I recall was like Rs150-300 per hour day :oops: then (1994) depending on the skill level...carpenters asked for the highest.

When we ventured into buying a flat, we had to pay for worker's insurance fund, which came out of the final settlement costs in the 2008 period.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by geeth »

Hnair, I dont know whether that video is genuine or made up..but the news was all there. About labour, union, headload workers and labour departments, well let me just say I am running a factory in Kerala. Part of what you say about labour department is true. Many things that you said about the headload workers.are contrary to my experience. Further, you cant expect public to carry around booklets from labour departments and quote rates.. When my factory was closed due to blockade by headload workers, even my lawyer was not so sure about how exactly to tackle the situation. I shuttle between Chennai and Palakkad...and know what the difference is. First of all, I dont know if any other state has such a strong unionised labour force ably assisted by local politicians and sarkari babus. They often indulge in goondaism. Your experience may be different..but IMO it is an exception than norm.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

geeth, I hear you. Like I mentioned (underlined), the above one was a residential issue. Industrial labour issues are a lot more different and is tricky, wherever labour feels they are "empowered". Again, not condoning, just observing

Btw, coincidence it is that I heard just last friday from a CII person, about an incident in Kanjikode (where I presume your facility is at). This was a decade or so back, during EK Naynar times. Some bright-eyed and hopeful NRI chappie comes with idea of manufacturing a precision part for germans, over at Kanjikode. The CII people was helping him with procedures et al, when the NRI chap wants to "interact with the political leadership". CII folks warned, saying it is better off they dont know what he is doing. Anyways, the chap insisted and he got audience with CM, at the Cliff House, late at night. Shree Naynar, despite his great popularity and political consensus building skills, is a douchebag who, till his death, wants to prove how he is smarter than the person he is talking to. And he has to do this within the first five minutes. The NRI chap gets introduced and the CM-bahadur of Kerala "At Kanjikode? Imbecile, if you had done this 40 kms away in Coimbatore or so, my peoples would not have been put through unncessary trouble" (inference: you need to pay my union leaders). NRI chap was silent and the CII peoples were silent too, on the way back. It seems he later got demotivated enough that he returned back to Germany, despite CII folks assuring him. Anyways, that used to be the attitude of Left govt's industries department till EK Naynar kicked bucket.

The next Left one (2006-20011) had Elamaram Kareem as industries minister, who is considered an industry friendly figure. Too friendly that, his divestment of larger parcels of land from FACT and at Ponnani, for industrial needs got mired in corruption allegations (true or no, I dont know). So the pendulum has swung the other way again, sadly. Hopefully, we get a pragmatist like KN Balagopal or some such, if the LDF comes back again. But that is a big "IF"

I know of a few large scale entities, that dealt with unions pretty well, here in Trivandrum and one that didnt.
1) The excellent UST campus had issues, when the construction major CCCL had its huge crisis and had to backout. So UST pulled out a techie employee from their ranks and asked him to finish the job. Dude was a local and used small-time local labour contractors , dealt with unions and finished the first building with only a few months delay (the original delay was supposedly 3 years, due to complexity of the building). He is the one who suggested to me some of these things. I am hoping he spins off into a construction management role soon! Very talented.

2) Two seniors from college runs this speciality glass fab shop at Veli Industrial estate. Very labour intensive and needs a lot of negotiations. They have grown to become the biggest customers for Saint Gobain in India, since they do projects all over India now, including the glass facade for the UST project I linked above. They now have bootstrapped quite a few ancillaries for custom parts and basic widgets, by leasing out sick industry space. A lot of these are owned by union co-ops and are thriving, as per CII folks. One of the partners is a friend and he is the one who says it is not easy to talk and you can loose control, but ultimately, you are dragging in the world into a cosy eco-system. He says it is upto you, as the bridge to smooth out stuff at both ends and no amount of "this is how things are done around the world" is not going to convince the unions.

3) AI's Boeing MRO for 737 series in Trivandrum, runs three shifts 24 hour with unions. About 300 odd employees. While across the street, is #4 below

4) the one that didnt do well? BATL aka Brahmos Trivandrum. Seems the work scheduling was confusing, leading to job insecurities and leading to labour disputes. Mismanaged to the core on all sides.

5) Trivandrum International stadium. Just saw this post in FB. The stadium was declared a "Labour dispute free zone", based on a request to Labour Department by the concessionaire (IL &FS) and even then, some minor skirmishes happened:

Image link

Summary: it is not easy to deal with industrial labour, like in other states, tactics have to be changed.

Currently, Kerala's biggest problem for "make in India" is land scarcity due to population density, which leads to issues of land aggregation. All land is held in small parcels around urban periphery, thanks to state-wide urbanization. Anything beyond 5 acres, cannot be easily aggregated by private individuals or entities. Not even Central Government. Only state government can. Unions and outages are the lesser of the risks nowadays.

Edit: LaterAdded a fifth
Hari Seldon
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

The "passport == labor-quota rates little red book" example was delightful indeed. How true it is that to the unknown and the ignorant, all procedural stuff will look == thuggery only.

Only difference is, the customs, CISF/TSA guy won't jump on you and demand Rs 50,000 from you first off the bat. They'll assume you know the rules and the drill. Only. Perhaps.

In a country where unionized/ organized labor comprises <10% of the total workforce, I'd rather go with expanding options to the unorganized sector to get into legit, large firms even as contract workforce in the manufacturing sector than continue with unionized status quo. Perhaps.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

aah yes, but Hari Seldon, you might prefer your privates being gently squeezed by the CISF/TSA types, than merely talk loud with union types. Personally, I prefer neither, but one has to go through these motions.

Agree with the rest of your post. There are options for everyone
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

Aah, yes, mighty sweet of you to presume or speculate how a fellow BRFite prefers to get his/her private parts squeezed. Mod privileges, perhaps?

Anyway, am out of here. Ensoi your playground.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

Hari Seldon, take your bellyaching to forum feedback. It is not a state topic :D
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Sachin »

hnair wrote:Sachin, I cant be polite here - you loathe your malayalee background to an embarrassing level and feels a constant need to use even positive and factual things like "100% literate state" as vile epithets
I was in two minds (for the whole day) to respond or not :). But then two pegs of brandy suggested, that I respond. I started using the 100% literate state "number", after seeing that being used as a gimmick to show some sort of intellectual superiority of the Kerala crowd over others. This was certainly not on BR Forums, but on forums which unfortunately have got shut down. It is a fact that the ability to read and write has a huge advantage, but that does not mean that every person who knows to read and write is a genius by default.
but you have issues against other people too, struggling against all odds, while you are peacefully sitting outside Kerala
I don't have issues against any one. There was a news paper article which talked about the unclean habitats given to the migrant labour from North East India, in an area in Northern Kerala (Calicut Dt.). On this article one chap commented on the aspects of allowing the migrants in the first place. And it was to him I said, that if he has such good concepts on cleanliness then there are a few options available.
nokkukuli is a bargain mechanism at this point. Labour department publishes a nice little booklet, which says clearly, which is your Labour section and 24 hr cellphones of the local Labour Officer. If you feel intimidated, the LO will write a letter addressed to the Circle Inspector, citing Goonda Act (this is the US equivalent of Organized crime and racketeering), not the normal ones, to take action
The sad part is the time involved in the whole process. From your post, I understand that you had done your home work much earlier and may also have contacts amongst the local politicians, union folks and perhaps the police :). For a person who does not have such contacts, he would be at the mercy of goons from the head load workers union, while some one from the labour department may be preparing the LO, which needs to be then passed on to the Inspector of Police (again an organisation, which a new comer does not want to deal with during the initial days). Perhaps what may be a better idea is to have any issue between a private individual and the "union" chaps to be totally out of the purview of the labour department. It should be dealt as a case of extortion, in which the individual can request the help of police straight-away. The same scenario, of mugging or some one getting molested on the road.

BTW, the Nokku kooli concepts does exist else where, off course where literacy rates (and thus educational and thinking capabilities ;) :roll:) are poor. There is an issue happening in Leh district, where local taxi unions do not want self driven cars to be allowed inside the district.
So we finally got a nice human chain and got the stuff done in a hour or so. Later I took them for a biriyani (with a boiled egg, they insisted) in my car and they parted. They did not even take money from me that day. Just my address. I paid all of 7500 Rs to the seven of them (3 from CITU, 2 from INTUC and 2 from BMS). Remember there were two large trucks chock full of heavy furniture and stuff and they had to climb a floor.
Sir, this tactic works any where in the world :D. This tactic would work in suburbs of Bangalore any day, but again for a new comer this would take time. I know folks in Bangalore who say that they can negotiate and work a better deal with auto rickshaw drivers any day. Again that is using the local specialities - speaking their own language, local politics, films etc. But for a new comer, these are not possible at all. And Bangalore or Karnataka is not 100% literate :). So I really don't see much difference in the attitudes of people in Kerala and other places in such things. So what has 100% literacy achieved? - that is the question which I ask often.

To summarise: If I am found to be too critical about Malayalis, it has been this 100% literacy story which has been parroted from the year 1992. Because in very many cases, 100% literacy has not been able to bring up advantages like attitudinal changes, better job prospects to the state, the state governments have still not been able to come up with any major employment schemes which allows people of the state to work in the state. Migration to other states & countries, have been happening even before 100% literacy happened, and continues even after 20 years after that event as well. If we can reach a consensus that Kerala has its own advantages and problems (which cannot be be pushed under the carpet using the 100% literacy excuse), I guess we are all on the same page.

Peace..
Theo_Fidel

Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sachin wrote:So what has 100% literacy achieved?
Not sure if this is serious or a joke.

Assuming it is serious, how about that fact that KL workers like yourself are sought after the world over and don’t get treated like Bihari labor…. …have some respect man for the effort your state and your ancestors have invested in you.

Take a look at BRF. Sometimes it seems like the only 2 states that exist are TN & KL, with Bengaluru/Mumbai/Delhi thrown in for the mix. From the deep heartland of India , mostly crickets…. …This is not an accident.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Vayutuvan »

Nokku coolie exists in AP too. AFAIK, it has nothing to do with communism. It is a traditional practice.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Bade »

I wonder why states like Gujarat are even bothering to achieve targets like 80% literacy forget 100% literacy. If they can do so well with lower HDI and literacy levels, then why even bother educating the rest to some minimum standards.

BRF has fallen far in enlightenment. I try to keep away from political threads, as often it is about if someone saluted the flag or not, or some such non-sense.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Vayutuvan »

I think literacy is important if India wants to industrialize. While I don't know what the threshold is, it is certainly no where near 90%. We are talking about functional literacy, i.e. ability to read, understand, and follow written instructions and the ability to follow verbal instructions with a certain level of spatial reasoning and arithmetic literacy as well plus an intuitive understanding of physics - at least people need to know things like "If I push this thing here this is the way it is going to move" and estimation of speeds, stopping distances, load bearing, and the like. These are common sense for educated people but not for illiterates unless they are in vocations like carpenters, metal workers, weavers etc. Even there a carpenter who works with hand operated wooden lathes or a Iron Smith who works with bellows operated coal furnaces would not be able to transfer those skills to modern factories. Same with farmers too. If one wants to intriduce modern methods of agriculture, all kinds of superstitions (mostly arising out of religious beliefs) have to be de-stressed and empirical/experimental based learning needs to be instilled in the minds. May be the literacy has to be 100% (at least in local languages, if not English) for that to happen. No religion at work place should be the rule. Of course, people need to have freedom in attire, food habits et al as long as they do not impinge on others' rights.
Theo_Fidel

Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Vayu saar, there is no option but 100% literacy. In fact there is no option but 100% HS level literacy. What you are talking about is social awareness of how a society comes to a consensus of how rules are to be interpreted. This does not come in a 80% literate society.

My opinion is that labor problems in KL have zero to do with literacy but more to do with work/social culture. Part of the problem is hard, baking in the sun, labor is look down upon in KL and KL folks look down upon such workers, upto and including dimming your marriage prospects. But oddly enough it is literacy that is being questioned. TN too used to have severe labor issues back in the day when it was less literate. Anyone remember the Madura Coates strike or the Binny mills one or even the Ambassador factory war. As literacy has gone up in TN, labor strife has gone down and these days the TN worker is highly prized. Even folks in TN are slightly less classist towards laborers and it comes across in work culture. Today an engineer in Chennai has no problem working on a factory floor screwing bolts to TVS bike or Mercedes Benz truck and he is respected for it and his marriage prospects are bright. This is all a legacy of the social reform movements that TN went through. KL still hasn’t made that break thru as a society, and if there is a legitimate quarrel I have with KL it is that rent seekers are looked on with more favor than those who sweat for their paycheck…..
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Bade »

Theo, that may be because of the jump from being a feudal society to desk jobs (PA, stenographers, IT workers in B'lur/KA) being the progression over the last five decades. Without manufacturing, hands on factory floor type experience will be lacking in the general public.

It is a stereotype, still the armed services were never looked down upon where a lot of hands on activity is required and toiling too. But there was always prestige associated with govt jobs and joining the forces fit the bill too.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Javee »

Theo, I think you hit the nail on the head. With literacy comes in labour movement and innovative work practices. Somehow KL has good movement of people and with a well travelled and educated labor force you should see innovation on the ground. But that seems to not happen in KL. Even if it is, it is getting drowned by TN and KA. KL has the ideal climate/location/education for knowledge based industries, but again that has not happened in large scale. . If literacy is only used for shipping people off to far off places then it does not help the state much on a rainy day , sure you get remittances but don't think it will foster growth. May be a comparative look at Philippines or Mexico will make things put back in perspective.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by RamaY »

100% literacy is definitely required. But it doesn't guarantee intellectual honesty or logical debate. I see this happening in this very discussion.

"Have respect for the state/nation & the ancestors that made you what you are". That has been my simple request all along to religious minorities in India.

I agree with Sachin on the fact that 100% literacy of Kerala didn't achieve any additional benefit to KL or Bharat. Kerala still lives happily under intellectual colonization & India got no value addition from KL, any better than say Bihar.

KL's 100% literacy is known in only few fields - nurses & teachers outside KL. My state AP becAme famous for IT, doctors & Farming (outside AP) without 100% literacy.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Sachin »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Assuming it is serious, how about that fact that KL workers like yourself are sought after the world over and don’t get treated like Bihari labor…. …have some respect man for the effort your state and your ancestors have invested in you.
My question was more on what attitudinal changes did 100% literacy bring amongst the trouble-some workforce (like the Nokkukooli experts) in Kerala. What gets my goat is the claim that "100% literacy == 100% intelligent, smart & much better than any one else in the world", type of a stance. This attitude I have seen more on the streets of KL, than in BR Forum. I can gladly accept that learning to read & write is some thing great, but does that mean life does not exist for people who don't have that skill, and they are all dumbos? Even before 100% literacy was achieved (in 1992 or 1993), Keralite labour was much in demand in India and else where. Keralites have been leaving the state/territory even during the times of the Raj.
Part of the problem is hard, baking in the sun, labor is look down upon in KL and KL folks look down upon such workers, upto and including dimming your marriage prospects
And the surprising factor is that even with a strong doze of communism, (and 100% literacy which means options to read books coming from all over the world) the "dignity of manual labour" seems to have gone missing.
Bade wrote:It is a stereotype, still the armed services were never looked down upon where a lot of hands on activity is required and toiling too.
Again, was it due to the fact that in Armed Forces many of the hard work happens far away from the KL soldier's home towns? And again, the prestige of the government job, due you feel it is more in the old feudal communities? Because I have seen certain other communities who were into business, generally still trying to focus more on business and generate money, rather than sit and write PSC exams all the time.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

Sachin, am really glad you posted. Johny-kunj ki jai! :D

What 100% does not mean is what you are getting stressed over: that organized labour is going to stop foregoing their cosy social security mechanisms or communists folding up overnight, because they become smarter due to literacy. As Theo mentioned, the industrial disputes of TN's earlier illiterate workforce or the Kanpur/Mumbai mills ones, will pale anything that Mavoor Rayons or the Plachimada fracas has thrown up.

To me, 100% Literacy means that the old lady who sits with a meagre few pineapples by the roadside near my place can read a newspaper, while she waits for people like me to squat near her and haggle about the price of her local produce. I haggle with her because she hates charity, as much as her earlier illiterate situation. She told me that she learned to read only in her 70s. I purloin some assorted women's magazines from my mother's desk and drop it off with her, because it is such a joy to watch her read very slowly and methodically. So when you use the "100% literacy" as an ephithet, I can only think of that dear old lady, doing an honest day's job and living a full life thanks to literacy. You are not discriminating, when you comment like that. That is my main grouse.

Literacy is a great tool to plug into a wider world, but does not automatically increase any ones' intelligence or analytical skills

As for migrant labour, like I tried to explain, xenophobia mostly stems from a tribe/sub-culture identity. It is universal and Kerala is nothing special. eg: ever gone to a houseparty or a launch party? People clump together based on familiar subcultures and bitch about the other clumps. I heard enough rubbish from all nationalities about Indians and in India, from all states against keralites. It is something that is not endemic to Kerala and is not going to impact anyone's economic wellbeing.
Theo_Fidel

Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sachin wrote:I can gladly accept that learning to read & write is some thing great, but does that mean life does not exist for people who don't have that skill, and they are all dumbos? Even before 100% literacy was achieved (in 1992 or 1993), Keralite labour was much in demand in India and else where. Keralites have been leaving the state/territory even during the times of the Raj.
Sadly, yes. They may be nice people but illiterate people lack the ability to sustain a modern civilization. Without modern civilization there is no prosperity, no matter what the defenders of the 12th century have to say.

I'm still not convinced that it is the literacy that makes the KL worker prone to striking. In fact I'm pretty sure it is not so.
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Re: States News and Discussions

Post by Sachin »

hnair wrote: that organized labour is going to stop foregoing their cosy social security mechanisms or communists folding up overnight, because they become smarter due to literacy
I agree with you. So then 100% literacy becomes some sort of a minor point to gloat about, and folks have been gloating about it for the last 20 years :). I would take the example of Theo_Fidel. Head load workers still remaining head load workers, without knowing that their skill is becoming irrelevant today. With all of them being literate, my hope was that they would know times are changing and focus on re-inventing themselves by getting trained to use mechanical devices etc. Being literate the avenues for them to modernise is also easily available. They know what things are being used today. Instead of that they have used their literacy skills to perhaps read up the law books, and work on bringing more silly rules & procedures to protect their turf. An illiterate head-load worker may not have this skills (to demand and frame laws), but he has other tantrum making skills. So finally what happened, literacy helped people in understanding the laws, and their rights - which is good. But was the same skills used to come up with long term vision, I don't think so :). Even before 100% literacy the state had labour problems & industrial disputes - the same continues. Even before 100% literacy certificate was given, Keralites left the state to other parts of India and the world seeking better jobs etc - the same continues today as well.
So when you use the "100% literacy" as an ephithet, I can only think of that dear old lady, doing an honest day's job and living a full life thanks to literacy
In my case, what caught my goose was the claims by many people (not on BR Forum) that they all are part of a 100% literate society, and hence should be the most intelligent people out there. This is when I knew that at the most they are mediocre workers, and the task they do, can be done equally well by a person illiterate or semi-literate. All this gave me a feeling of 100% literacy claim being used as some sort of a last excuse to get some recognition.
As for migrant labour, like I tried to explain, xenophobia mostly stems from a tribe/sub-culture identity.
Agreed. Think about the case I mentioned in my lengthy post. The xenophobic comment appeared in Mathrubhumi. The person who made that comment would be literate and all that. But his comment, was very close to a comment which an illiterate localite, from Haryana, Bihar or Karnataka would make. The literacy level perhaps allowed the Malayali gentleman to write down his xenophobia clearly.

The commies I am sure are not going away from Kerala, any time soon :). But perhaps I feel it is better to use the literary skills etc. to kind of change a few things, move to more futuristic ideas, rather than using these skills only to be more entrenched in the existing positions. Perhaps it was my fault to assume that being a literate society, it would make people think in a better fashion, analyse their own position and see how things are in other parts of the world, how people work and live there etc. And then work on how Kerala and they themselves grow by leaps and bounds.
Theo_Fidel wrote:I'm still not convinced that it is the literacy that makes the KL worker prone to striking. In fact I'm pretty sure it is not so.
You, I feel are right here. What literacy may have helped is making people read and understand the rule books and recognize their rights (and perhaps also know how people work & live in other parts of the world). Once the rights have been recognized, it is natural for people to strike if the rights are missing. For the KL workers strike mentality, communism (which got popular much before Kerala became 100% literate) may have been a reason. Communist movement also made the working class aware of their rights (the workers would be illiterate, but the movement had literate and passionate leaders). This was also quite required during the olden days, when exploitation did exist. But some where down the line, unionisation became too much and any non-unionised group (which includes common citizens, who are not kind of any group) was at a disadvantage. Today it is like pretty much every group which has more than 10 people form a union for some reason, and fight with other unions. Union and their leaders have kind of become mini-mafias each having their own hidden agenda, with overall development of Kerala not being a major agenda at all :).
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