Renewable Sources of Energy

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 31 Dec 2010 07:04

This is not a good plan IMHO.

PV technology is fairly knowledge and experience intensive. It is not a good idea to have 37 separate developers. Solar Thermal is even more technically challenging. Esp. WRT up times. The developers need to be capital rich to deal with start up complications.

Also it is scale dependent. For instance it costs the same to link a 5MW unit and a 100 MW unit to a grid. All the world experience has shown that Solar Thermal needs to be 200MW+ to even come close to breaking even. Even in PV it would have been better to consolidate into 2-3 100 MW, utility scale units. In terms of complexity it is similar to water desalination and we know the complications the one Chennai plant suffered. Now imagine it had been 20 separate desalination plants.

I would be surprised to see even 10 of these projects come on the grid in the next 5 years.

Also Rs 15 / unit is very very expensive power. Even by world standards.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby vera_k » 31 Dec 2010 23:36

I have been puzzling over this, but then I read that power is being traded at Rs 9 per unit, while some consumers are already paying Rs 13 per unit. So perhaps the current Indian scenario of high cost power is making renewables feasible.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby RamaY » 05 Jan 2011 00:00

^^ I have done some research on this field, and even went to the extent to bid for one of these licenses.

The Rs 8-13/KWH tariff is meant for this round only. It will change as the industry evolves.

I am working on some models which become financially feasible at Rs8/KWH but we need at least 100MW capacity to start with. Once established my model can go down to Rs 6/KWH as well.

I am not hopeful of PV technology for utility scale power generation. Most of these units will remain small. Majority of the bids are to get the land allocation at govt. prices (some places they were allocated 10 Acres / MW. A 100MW power project will get 1,000 acre land at subsidized prices. The PV model is good for individual dwelling level only.

It IS A GOOD PLAN to invite multiple bidders at this stage. The size of the plants are also kept at minimum size as these are "Technology Demonstrator" projects only. As the industry evolves only the winners will get repeated allocation IMO.

JMT

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Prem » 05 Jan 2011 00:16

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resourc ... 294075689/
India speeds up solar energy development
NEW DELHI, Jan. 3 (UPI) -- Given India's dynamic economy and rising energy needs, the government is promoting solar power.Within the next two years, Indian power plants will bring an additional 1,100 megawatts online, of which 184 megawatts will be supplied by solar power and photovoltaic plants already under construction with an additional 620 megawatts of construction on the drawing board, India's Ministry of New and Renewable Energy reported Monday.Indian Minister of Renewable Energy Deepak Gupta, in announcing the country's ambitious solar program, noted that projects were under way that would allow India to achieve the government's target of 20,000 megawatts of solar power by 2022.Gupta added that his ministry's primary objective is to reduce the price of solar energy and to stimulate new research and development

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 08 Jan 2011 02:26

People i need two pieces of information, in India for solar roof top generation schemes what are the incentives provided by Government. I went to the MNRE website and got thoroughly confused with the various circulars and letters.

Newshounds there was at some point of time a news item in chindu where an engineer i think set up a 5kw solar pv plant in Tamilnadu for 10L or so, can someone give me the link if they have it ?

Thanks in advance for providing me info or for trying to

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Raghavendra » 08 Jan 2011 11:19

^Cost of project is different, around 100 crore, but i think this must be the project you were looking for

Solar farm launched in Sivaganga district http://www.hindu.com/2010/12/23/stories ... 560300.htm

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 09 Jan 2011 01:57

Thanks Sirjee.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Raghavendra » 09 Jan 2011 12:52

^no problem birather :mrgreen:

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 09 Jan 2011 23:43

suryag wrote:People i need two pieces of information, in India for solar roof top generation schemes what are the incentives provided by Government. I went to the MNRE website and got thoroughly confused with the various circulars and letters.

Newshounds there was at some point of time a news item in chindu where an engineer i think set up a 5kw solar pv plant in Tamilnadu for 10L or so, can someone give me the link if they have it ?

Thanks in advance for providing me info or for trying to


rs 70 per watt power without battery and rs 90 per watt power with battery (Any solar power system) limited to 100 kWp . if project is for rural electrification then limit is 250 KWp.
Non commercial Application would get soft loan for balance fund @ 5%. Need to apply through State Nodal Agencies or through banks routed to IREDA TO mnre.
Generally speaking subsidy works out to 30 5 of cost if you take 6-12 hrs of autonomy with battery banks.

Yes MNRE circulars are quite daunting. For further clarification send mail to respective nodal agencies or mNRE. Dr Bhargava is the contact person. mail ID on MNRE website.

Benchmark for setting up SPV power plant less than 100 KWp is 1.5 to 1.8 lakh per KWp. If you are lucky can get it in 1.1 Chinese would give you in 0.60 lakh -0.90 lakh but won't get incentives. You need to get a good power conditioning unit or inverter for grid interaction.

state Govt need to bring in their own policies to promote rooftops. That is where things would make more sense.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 10 Jan 2011 00:41

Thanks a lot Chaanakya Garu. I really appreciate the info you have provided. With regards to chinese suppliers who can do things at 0.6-0.9L, I ahve worked with a couple of them, they dont have IEC certifications as needed by the ministry, horrible quality far away from stated performance. so as you pointed out we wont get subsidies if we use their maal.

However, i am doubt of the 1.5-1.8 because the government themselves provide benchmark as Rs210/Wp, generally arent government valuations supposed to be less than what it would really cost, along those lines it would take 2.lL/KWp. I will get in touch with Dr.Bhargava and hope he responds.
Last edited by suryag on 10 Jan 2011 07:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby ArmenT » 10 Jan 2011 01:01

Aussies break speed record for solar powered car.
http://www.sunswift.com/
Fun part is that they broke the old record by 10 kmph even though it was a cloudy day.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 10 Jan 2011 20:04

suryag wrote:
However, i am doubt of the 1.5-1.8 because the government themselves provide benchmark as Rs210/Wp, generally arent government valuations supposed to be less than what it would really cost, along those lines it would take 2.lL/KWp. I will get in touch with Dr.Bhargava and hope he responds.


You are right . Govt benchmark is 210/KWp. But actual costs are going down. Karnataka has planned 3 MWp SPV plant of which first MWp was commissioned last year costing Rs 15 Cr Second MWp would cost Rs 11 cr ( open tendering process). Draft guidelines in 2007 spoke of Rs 18 cr per MWp.
Target is to achieve Grid parity by 2032. So as the installations increase, so would the prices decrease, at least that is what is hoped for. However Individual installations of 1-100 KWp might cost more , but then it depends on bargaining power.

Chinese panels are at best be avoided as the degradation in power factor would be higher giving less than rated output.

As for 1 KWp system, don't pay more than 1.5 L.
You will get Rs 90000 as subsidy after installation. Route your application as advised earlier.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 10 Jan 2011 22:33

Thanks Chaanakya garu, could you please spare time to vote my poll in GDF

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 13 Jan 2011 06:57

Tata funding research into converting sun power, water into fuel news
01 January 2011
http://www.domain-b.com/industry/Automo ... rting.html

Tata Starts Project to Use Water as Fuel
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/tata- ... 29189.html


Salt Water into Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B8srudAUhE

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 16 Jan 2011 04:34

TN to power up roof top solar generation
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/201 ... 281000.htm

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Ameet » 18 Jan 2011 23:38

India plans Asian tidal power first

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12215065

The Indian state of Gujurat is planning to host Asia's first commercial-scale tidal power station.

The company Atlantis Resources is to install a 50MW tidal farm in the Gulf of Kutch on India's west coast, with construction starting early in 2012.

The facility could be expanded to deliver more than 200MW.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby vera_k » 19 Jan 2011 09:33

Was reading a popular science issue. The US DOE is running an ARPA-E program (similar to the one that resulted in the Internet) to find solutions for energy. The program is headed by an IIT Mumbai alumnus. He made a comment that solar PV installations will be 10x cheaper ($10/watt to $1/watt) within a decade with normal productivity gains (no new tech). Efforts are on to try and shorten this timescale further.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 21 Jan 2011 15:07

First electronic solar rickshaws for postmen in India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 305661.cms

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 30 Jan 2011 23:59

IICT working on renewable energy projects
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Hyderabad January 31, 2011, 0:25 IST
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ts/423490/

SEMEBO.com - Add your site to the next generation of search - SEMEBO.com
Smart Energy India Presents Workshop on Integrating Renewable Energy
http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=33

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 08 Feb 2011 02:24

TN to power up roof top solar generation
http://www.thehindubusinessline.in/2011 ... 281000.htm

Reliance Venture, GE invest in AllGreen Energy
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 13092.html


Caparo pushes into Indian renewable energy market
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 5997910785

BHEL, Spain's Abengoa to develop concentrated solar power projects in India
http://netindian.in/news/2011/02/07/000 ... ects-india

Locke Complains to India About Solar Imports
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 51704.html

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 14 Feb 2011 18:06

chaanakya wrote:
suryag wrote:
However, i am doubt of the 1.5-1.8 because the government themselves provide benchmark as Rs210/Wp, generally arent government valuations supposed to be less than what it would really cost, along those lines it would take 2.lL/KWp. I will get in touch with Dr.Bhargava and hope he responds.


You are right . Govt benchmark is 210/KWp. But actual costs are going down. Karnataka has planned 3 MWp SPV plant of which first MWp was commissioned last year costing Rs 15 Cr Second MWp would cost Rs 11 cr ( open tendering process). Draft guidelines in 2007 spoke of Rs 18 cr per MWp.
Target is to achieve Grid parity by 2032. So as the installations increase, so would the prices decrease, at least that is what is hoped for. However Individual installations of 1-100 KWp might cost more , but then it depends on bargaining power.

Chinese panels are at best be avoided as the degradation in power factor would be higher giving less than rated output.

As for 1 KWp system, don't pay more than 1.5 L.
You will get Rs 90000 as subsidy after installation. Route your application as advised earlier.



Well I think your fears should rest as MNRE revised benchmark cost upward and subsidy downward for 2011.Refer their website

With effect from 01.04.2011 the benchmark cost for photovoltaic will be revised
to Rs. 270 per Wp (with battery) and Rs. 190 per Wp (without battery bank) respectively
(as indicated in para 5.3 of the Administrative approval- 5/23/2009-10/P&C dated
08.07.2010). For general areas the CFA would be 30% limited to Rs. 81 per Wp (with
battery back-up) and Rs. 57 for systems (without storage battery). For Special category
states/North-East States the CFA would be 90% limited to Rs. 243 per Wp (with battery
back-up) and Rs. 171( without battery back up).

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 14 Feb 2011 22:25

Thats extremely sad :( How could they do that, now i dont know where we need to look for cutting cost. Per KW it is a 9000Rs change for battery back up systems

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 14 Feb 2011 22:55

suryag wrote:Thats extremely sad :( How could they do that, now i dont know where we need to look for cutting cost. Per KW it is a 9000Rs change for battery back up systems


look for market in NE and special category states like Uttarakhand.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 14 Feb 2011 23:13

Hope whenever we make profits we make alteast as much to pay off haftedaars in NE. HP/Uttarakhand are good targets Chaanakya ji. Thanks.Chaanakya ji dont know if I can ask you this but would you be available for consulting with us ?

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Wave energy generator

Postby SSSalvi » 17 Feb 2011 20:42

Wrongly posted in Solar energy thread.. bringing here for proper reference archives.
Using a small tank of water in a Colorado laboratory, Air Force researchers have captured 99 percent of the energy of a model ocean wave, proving it’s possible to use aeronautical principles to harness the power of the oceans.
The researchers used a cycloidal turbine, a lift-based energy converter, to grab the energy of a simulated deep-ocean wave. It can change direction almost instantly, and its structure is similar to that of a Voith Schneider propeller, which is used to power tugboats.
It involves a main power shaft and a few hydrofoils whose angle of attack can be adjusted to meet the wave. The main shaft is aligned parallel with the wave crests, according to a paper describing the system presented at an American Society of Mechanical Engineers conference.
The entire concept is not unlike a helicopter propulsion system, which involves shifting the angle of attack of the main rotor blades to move the helicopter sideways or to pitch forward and back. That explains why Air Force aeronautics researchers are involved — some of the people working on this project have studied fluid dynamics for military aircraft and NASA spacecraft, according to an Air Force news release.



The aerodynamic gurus of BR could throw some light on principles used.

Intermediate Ocean Wave Termination Using a Cycloidal Wave Energy Converter
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... yes&ref=no

Using Aeronautical Principles, Air Force Researchers Capture Wave Energy With 99 Percent Efficiency
http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... efficiency

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Christopher Sidor » 20 Feb 2011 17:46

In gurgaon after a certain threshold the price per unit of electricity in residential area is 4.90 Rs per unit. If Solar is able to even give us 6 Rs per unit or closer to 5 Rs per unit, we will see a revolution happening over here. The reason being, in Gurgaon the electricity supply is 24X7, i.e. in 7 days we get some 24 hours of electricity. :evil:

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 20 Feb 2011 20:12

suryag wrote:Hope whenever we make profits we make alteast as much to pay off haftedaars in NE. HP/Uttarakhand are good targets Chaanakya ji. Thanks.Chaanakya ji dont know if I can ask you this but would you be available for consulting with us ?

I didn't notice this, sorry for late reply.While I have to decline it would be my pleasure to answer questions to the best of my ability in this forum. Though not the last word on the topic.

Chistopher, you are out of sync. Solar mission offers unit rate in the range of 15-18.50 per unit 1ith 12 to 15 Rs GBI.
Rooftop solar power would be around 4.5 to 5.5 per unit.Yet to be finalised. But within solar mission it would be ssame with Rs 12-15 GBI thrown in for approved projects. Target for investment in mission is 1,20,000 lakh cr ( less than 2G scam) for next 22 yrs. with coal parity by 2032 and addition of 40,000 MW solar PV power alone.Don't know hoe it would pan out.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Christopher Sidor » 20 Feb 2011 20:42

^^^
4.5 to 5.5 per unit will be extremely competitive. However we have to factor in the cost of batteries, which are the biggest recurring drain on the entire setup. It would be just great if we could somehow just do away with the batteries. But 4.5 to 5.5 is being optimistic, just as Rs 6 per unit was.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 20 Feb 2011 23:05

oh again, not keeping track, are you? Chistopher.

This is for non battery based power plant (SPV). Unit price is about 18.50 -20.50 of which 12-15 is generation based incentive by GOI and balance is paid by utility (DISCOM) ( for all approved projects under solar mission). NOw RE power is being bundles with FE 4:1 so it gets compulsorily sold to meet RPO obligations as well.

For domestic sector, small power plant and roof top installations , guidelines are out but interconnectivity issues are being worked out by CEA.
This would certainly help and of course batteries are a drain on resources besides environmental issues, disposal issues. But then, are there any real cheap, viable alternatives? If you any . May be compressed air based storage system or fly wheel based one or storing as heat on a suitable retrievable medium. All are being researched at present.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 09 Mar 2011 01:56

Eco friendly branch of Pallava Grama bank inaugurated
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 99197.html

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby joshvajohn » 29 Mar 2011 18:05

India should call for UN round table talks on Climate Change in Bangalore or Chennai to take forward the further talks that follow Kyoto. Why not India show a lead in this?

Compromise needed as Kyoto Protocol to expire
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011 ... xpire.html

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Pranav » 30 Mar 2011 09:54

People should follow a company called Sun Catalytix lead by Prof Daniel Nocera of MIT. Their technology appears to be very important. They have also received a significant investment from the Tata group recently.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Pranav » 30 Mar 2011 09:56

joshvajohn wrote:India should call for UN round table talks on Climate Change in Bangalore or Chennai to take forward the further talks that follow Kyoto. Why not India show a lead in this?

Compromise needed as Kyoto Protocol to expire
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011 ... xpire.html


Low pollution is always good, but this climate change myth needs to be rubbished. It has already been busted but the corpse is being propped up by western elites.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby abhishek_sharma » 06 Apr 2011 08:12


chaanakya
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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 09 Apr 2011 09:57

chaanakya wrote:
Marten wrote:Which is why I asked for life cycle costs. Am supposing we will have to replace panels at some interval, and so on...

about 10% panels get replaced over 20 year period. The problem is in Power Conditioning Unit for MW scale project. Several issues there.Routine cleaning , tracking etc are not much of an issue. Some water requirement would be there.

Marten wrote:How's China managing to handle this? Any lessons from them that could be useful? Nukewise, they are of course the largest market, but they're planning Solar installed capacity of 30GW by 2018. That is eye-popping.

I think China has several advantages

1. They produce SPV ( esp Silica ingots the main raw products for wafers) , primarily in Three gorges Dam area where they get massive and cheap electricity as well as cheap labor. They aren't much worried abt environmental pollution this industry causes. According to intelligence input available they export first quality to developed market. Second quality to Developing countries and rejects are used in Chinese export products using mini solar cell , such as calculator or toys. Due to cheap electricity it is easy to keep cost down. It is possible to make MW scale plant with Chinese SPV in INR 5-6 crs. SPV failure rate and degradation would be higher. Of course Chinese Industries hotly dispute this.

2.In PCU they have same issues but due to cost factor , probably aren't much bothered abt replacement.

3 Most of their projects are being funded through UNFCCC. They have , almost cornered the market with abt >75% sanctions rate ,even for doubtful projects. So Their project break even comes in abt 5 years which is pretty good.
In contrast India gets abt 15-20% projects only approved by UNFCCC. And implementation is facing bottlenecks. So we are not able to take advantage of Carbon market. In any case there is uncertainty after kyoto protocol expires in 2012. Developed countries aren't much bothered about carbon emission. There is whole lot of debate going on in this area

3.Roof top deployment in small orders Sub MW scale itself would achieve 30 GW and more in China.
But they are yet to setup large or small deployment of Solar PV to assess Grid connectivity and to see how it would pan out

4. They have advantage in rare earth elements. There are plans to extract rare earth elements from panels at the end of its life.But yet to be tested.

5.They have policy to promote RE in a big manner and of course they would provide regulatory and financial support and even hidden subsidy for export market.

If Chinese become quality oriented and Brand them as such with same cost advantage , they would be difficult to beat.

The point is Renewables aren't only abt SPVs. This itself is a mix of many areas and some of them are still developing or at conceptual stage.Renewable Mix in India is about 11% with SPV negligible % in it. But if we take Hydro as renewables then it shoots up to 32 %.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby jamwal » 28 Apr 2011 14:33

Are there any good choices for people looking forward to cut down their dependency on generators or inverters.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 01 May 2011 23:30

This is a summary of a longish presentation available from here
The one line statement about the content being
Physicist John Droz argues that wind fails six of seven tests as a commercial power source, and is “an insult to science and mankind.”

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 04 May 2011 08:57

Paging Chaanakya ji

Sir jee
in the following doc from MNRE
list of sanctioned off-grid SPV projects
Different projects have different subsidy amounts sanctioned by the Govt.
For example first row
Andhra Pradesh Power Plants Educational Institutions 16.07.2010 16.03.2011 161.00 404

The CFA received as subsidy should have been
404 X 1000 X 81 = 3,27,24,000(if it was a battery back up system, highly unlikely for such capacities) or
404 X 1000 X 57 = 2,30,28,000 for a system without battery back-up)

Can you please clear the confusion on this ?

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chaanakya » 05 May 2011 00:22

Suryag

This is not the full release. but actual release. Release is in phases 50% 40% and 10% after three months with performance report and certificates of fund utilised. Deductions are made from previous pending amount with the agencies in the first releases. So here you will not get correct picture. moreover these are aggregated KWps from multiple projects. hence individual subsidy component would vary.

Here mostly, they released 50% minus previous amount pending UCs.
For 2010-2011 it was 90/70 Kwp with/without battery pack

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby suryag » 05 May 2011 02:58

Thanks a lot Chaanakya ji, that document crashed our whole edifice. Relieved now.


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