Renewable Sources of Energy

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Katare
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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Katare » 12 May 2012 03:14

ABC news coverage (video) of new solar facility....

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?secti ... id=8649109

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Vipul » 12 May 2012 17:28

A query. If a wind park operator has the financial means what would be the technical constraints for existing wind parks to have its earlier low capacity turbines changed to higher capacity ones? Would these turbines be plug and play ones (a simple matter) or require bigger tower (some complications) or would require more angled area/unrestricted area for airflow? (complete dismantaling of all towers - more complications)

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 13 May 2012 03:49

Vipul wrote:A query. If a wind park operator has the financial means what would be the technical constraints for existing wind parks to have its earlier low capacity turbines changed to higher capacity ones? Would these turbines be plug and play ones (a simple matter) or require bigger tower (some complications) or would require more angled area/unrestricted area for airflow? (complete dismantaling of all towers - more complications)


Need new tower. I don't see any other options.

The Tehachapi pass re-engineering showed that the major problem is economic. Fully depreciated and paid for turbines generate electricity at essentially zero cost. It is financially better to get 300 KW from a free old turbine than to install a new $2 Million 3MW wind turbine.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Vipul » 16 May 2012 21:09

Thanks Theo.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Vipul » 16 May 2012 23:03

Taking wind out of growing sector?

Accelerated Depreciation, an important driver of growth for Indian wind energy sector, was modified in April this year, forcing strong reactions from the industry. Along with this, the ambiguity on generation based scheme (GBI) has created confusion among independent power producers (IPPs). There is fear that the rapid advance in wind sector made till last year may suffer a big setback at least in the short run due to these two moves. However, the long term perspective is still healthy, reports Keshav Chaturvedi.

In early April 2012 the Finance Ministry announced that it was ending the decade long support for the wind sector that amounted to 80 per cent accelerated depreciation. It was a mechanism whereby 80 per cent of the capital cost qualified for tax break in the first year itself. Former secretary, Ministry of New and Renewable Energy (MNRE), V Subramanian says, “In my opinion both the accelerated depreciation (AD) and generation based incentive (GBI) scheme should have been persisted with for another five years. Market forces in the meantime would have ensured that the capacity addition through generation based scheme would have grown while the percentage of developers availing accelerated depreciation would have come down.”

While talking to media, Union Minister for New and Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah stressed that accelerated depreciation has encouraged companies to erect most of India’s 16,078 megawatts (MW) of wind capacity. However, this capacity addition was done keeping tax incentives in mind rather than efficient generation of power.

MNRE was instrumental in extending the 80 per cent accelerated depreciation scheme for another three years from 2009 onwards. This year too they had made a representation to the Finance Ministry for the continuation of the scheme for some more time.

However, it seems that Finance Ministry went by the observation of the Integrated Energy Policy Committee of Planning Commission that was of the opinion that the incentives for the wind energy sector should be based on generation rather than installation.

Right now, Indian wind energy sector is dominated by wind turbine manufacturers. There are in all 18 manufacturers with two more to start their operations soon. These manufacturers also have a unique identity as a developer. This twin role was facilitated by the accelerated depreciation scheme.

In last decade and a half, this scheme has been at the heart of wind energy expansion. At the beginning of the Tenth Plan period (April 1, 2002) the total installed capacity in wind power sector was 1,628 MW. In last 10 years, it has registered almost tenfold increase and today it stands at 16,078 MW. Even during the last financial year ending on March 2012, the sector recorded a capacity addition of 3,100 MW out of which 70 per cent was under accelerated depreciation scheme.

However, under new notification, all the wind farms built from April 1, 2012 will be able to claim accelerated depreciation to the tune of only 15 per cent of the cost of equipment. Along with this, there is no clarity on the generation based incentive scheme and its extension. So, the sector right now is in a state of suspended animation.

Industry watchers think that in the short term there may be a slump in activities. ICRA, an associate of Moody’s Investors Service, is of the opinion that discontinuation of the AD benefit can lead to a fall in capacity addition between 800-1,000 MW in coming months or a year. According to an estimate, the demand for wind turbines may witness a slump. This slump may be to the tune of 400 MW. While it said that in the long term the industry will come to terms with this hiccup.

Discontinuation of AD benefit would keep capacity addition for FY2013 lower than that achieved in FY2012. This can lead to adverse impact on the balance sheets of the turbine manufacturers that dominate the industry. Suzlon, Gamesa and Denmark’s Vestas Wind Systems, the biggest publicly traded turbine suppliers to the market, have been making maximum noise.

Indian Wind Turbine Manufacturers’ Association (IWTMA), an umbrella body of leading wind turbine manufacturers in India, has urged the government to reconsider the decision to build confidence in those investors who are planning to enter the market. They have also urged the government to take up this issue keeping in mind the capacity addition target of 5,000 MW per annum during the Twelfth Plan set by the MNRE. Wind power generation has been growing at a rapid speed in the country and this fiscal year witnessed a milestone installation of 3,100 MW. It is a major contributor to achieve the goal of 15 per cent share on renewable power by 2020 set under National Action Plan on Climate Change (NAPCC). Unlike other sectors, private investment is driving the growth of this sector.

Ramesh Kymal, chairman of IWTMA said, “The withdrawal of AD has also come at a time when continuity of generation based incentive (GBI) remans a question mark. Urgent intervention is required on continuity of GBI in the Twelfth Plan period as requested by the industry during the discussions of the 12th draft plan. On a broader note, it is rather ironical that high efficiency coal and oil fired boilers continue to get AD, while it has been denied to a source of power generation which is clean.”

Kymal, who is also the managing director, Gamesa Wind Turbine Pvt Ltd, says, “Accelerated depreciation in itself is a tax deferral and not a subsidy. It has been a driver of growth for the industry from its inception. It is all the more necessary to continue with it in the wake of economic slowdown, increase in interest rates and escalation in all input costs.” The industry has already made a joint representation to the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy (MNRE).

Sameer Gupta of ENERCON says, “Mainly the turbine manufacturers will suffer the most because they will not get the business in absence of IPPs. We will lose the retail investors, i.e. IPPs because they forayed into wind sector due to the scheme of 80 per cent AD. They had the option of using their money in their other businesses. Now with the AD gone, the retail investors would be affected and they would not be willing to set up projects. In addition to this, there is no clarity on GBI. However, to attract the retail investors, we need AD, otherwise wind sector will not survive, as the cost of setting up a project is very high. These are infrastructure projects and the developers are getting a very low margin of interest.”

While manufacturers are queuing up to make a pitch for the continuation of accelerated depreciation scheme, there are some industry experts who feel it is time that the scheme be withdrawn, as it has out lived its utility.

Rajan Deb, Director, Consolidated Energy Consultancy Ltd (CECL) says, “The removal of 80 per cent of AD may have a short-term impact on the installation of turbines across India but it would be a good thing for the sector in the long run. It would keep non-committed players out of the business and will encourage serious committed individuals with knowledge of the sector and willingness to do business to enter the market. So, I agree the total installation may see a decline for some time, but the quality of installation in terms of actual generation will be a huge improvement.”

It is true that accelerated depreciation did encourage many business houses and individuals to enter the market who had no knowledge of the sector and they weren’t interested in generation part of the operations. Jaisalmer in Rajasthan has witnessed many high profile people putting up wind turbines solely with the purpose of saving tax.

The renewable energy accounts for 12 per cent of the total installed energy capacity but in generation terms it still hovers at around 5 per cent. This gap in installed capacity and actual generation is also one of the reasons to do away with the AD scheme.

Deb says, “The hue and cry is being made due to the double whammy of removal of AD and ambiguity on GBI. This twin situation can actually have an adverse impact on the sector. However, as the market is now established and grown in size, it will not die. The only thing is we will see a restructuring and maturing of the sector.”

Preparing for shake-up: Turbine installations may see a dip in the short run
However, Arvind Prasad, managing director Ushdev Power and head of the Indian Wind Power Association says, “Investment could come to a standstill.”

But industry experts say that this move is going to have tremendous impact on the sector in the long run. They feel now the time and conditions are right for the foreign players and private equity fund owners to come in. As they are not interested in accelerated depreciation, they would only invest money if the project is viable. Due diligence will have to be done and the entire focus will shift from installing a turbine to actual generation.

This shift will also signal another long-term change. The sector would move from being manufacturer dominated to IPP dominated. Even in the last one year, the quiet shift was visible. It is estimated that out of the overall domestic wind-based capacity addition of 3,000 MW during FY2012 (against 2,350 MW in the previous FY), a large chunk was driven mainly by growing demand from the IPP segment. Ever since the GBI has been introduced, their numbers in percentage terms have gone up to 30 from negligible just three years ago.

Another impact of the removal of accelerated depreciation would be on the hyper demand of the turbines. As the AD was claimed during half yearly closing of books on September 30 or on March 31, most of the turbine installation peaked during these two months.

If a developer installed a turbine on September 30, he could claim the entire 80 per cent of the AD, however, if he installed it on March 31 he was eligible for 40 per cent AD in that financial year and the rest would roll over to the subsequent financial year. This led to peaking of demand around these two months. It led to unnecessary pressure on the manufacturers and a lot of substandard equipments were also sourced by those who wanted tax benefit above all.

Now with this scheme gone, the inflated demand for turbines would be rationalised and in time the premium charged by the manufacturers may also come down. With the number of installations coming down and non-serious players being filtered out, the inflated demand for land may also ease a bit bringing down the cost of land acquisition. This will make turbines cheaper and also bring down the entire cost of project substantially.

Deb says, “In such a scenario we may witness sooner than later a situation where the cost of installing a well researched, well executed wind farm project in the right place becoming cost-competitive enough with the conventional energy. In such a scenario where efficiency will rule over everything else, even GBI may become redundant one day.”

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 23 May 2012 02:16

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ns-to-2017

India plans to more than double its amount of clean power generation capacity to almost 53,000 megawatts by 2017 under the latest five year plan.

India plans to add 29,800 megawatts of renewable power generation in five years, more than twice the 12,871 megawatts added during the previous five year plan, according to data from the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy.

Over the coming period, the nation plans to add 15,000 megawatts of wind farms, 10,000 megawatts of solar power, 2,700 megawatts of power based on biomass and biofuels, and 2,100 megawatts of small hydroelectric projects, Minister Farooq Abdullah said in a written response to parliament that was e- mailed by the ministry late yesterday.

The nation has installed 23,128 megawatts of clean power projects to date.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby vina » 30 May 2012 15:53

For any proponent of renewables, this must be extremely, extremely disquieting. Fundamentally, renewable as a base grid app , is not a proven business model in the long term and is backed by massive and huge subsidies all over the world.

Trouble is , what will happen when the music stops and the subsidy gravy dries up. Is it still competitive. Fundamentally, question is WHERE is the Payback economically for all that clean power investments?

The experience of Spain a world leader in renewable seems TERRIBLE.
Spain Ejects Clean Power Industry with Europe Precedent

By Alex Morales and Ben Sills - May 30, 2012

Spanish renewable-energy companies that once got Europe’s biggest subsidies are deserting the nation after the government shut off aid, pushing project developers and equipment-makers to work abroad or perish.

From wind-turbine maker Gamesa Corp. Tecnologica SA (GAM) to solar park developer T-Solar Global SA, companies are locked out of their home market for new business. These are the same suppliers that spearheaded more than $69 billion of wind and solar projects since 2004 that today supply more than 50 percent of Spain’s power demand on the most breezy and sunny days.

Saddled with a budget deficit more than twice the European Union limit and a ballooning gap between income and costs in its power system, Spain halted subsidies for new renewable-energy projects in January. The surprise move by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy one month after taking office helped pierce investor confidence in stable aid for clean energy across Europe.

“They destroyed the Spanish market overnight with the moratorium,” European Wind Energy Association Chief Executive Officer Christian Kjaer said in an interview. “The wider implication of this is that if Spanish politicians can do that, probably most European politicians can do that.”

Spain’s $69 billion of investment in power capacity from 2004 to 2011 was about triple the spending per capita in the U.S. in that period, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance data and U.S. Census Bureau population estimates. Most of the 2012-2013 spending will be for the legacy of projects approved before the aid cuts to wind, solar, biomass and co-generation.
Spending Skids

Investment in solar photovoltaic alone is headed to skid to as little as $107 million in 2013 from $879 million this year and $1.5 billion last year, New Energy Finance estimated. For new wind projects, investment should plunge to $963 million in 2013 and $244 million in 2014 from $2 billion this year.

T-Solar, which became the world’s biggest solar-farm operator by leveraging its Spanish business, currently has more than 40 running in Spain, Italy and India. While it still makes solar panels in Orense, Spain, they’re bound for Peru.

“We have an important pipeline of projects, and it’s 100 percent outside Spain right now,” T-Solar Managing Director Juan Laso, who also heads the country’s photovoltaic power association, said in a telephone interview. “If you take such a brutal measure, what you do is oblige the industry to move out,” he said of the January moratorium.
Solaria, Gamesa

Solaria Energia y Medio Ambiente SA (SLR), a Madrid-based solar panel maker, slumped as much as 19 percent today to 30 euro cents a share after restating its 2011 earnings. The company lost 96 million euros last year compared with a 6.5 million-euro profit in 2010.

Gamesa, the world’s fourth-biggest wind-turbine maker by market share according to Navigant Consulting Inc. (NCI)’s BTM Consult unit, plans to reduce the factory output of its Spanish plants to 1,000 megawatts by 2013 from 1,200 megawatts at the end of last year.

Instead, Zamudio-based Gamesa is adding capacity in India where it plans to open a third factory this year. In 2011, the company got less than 9 percent of its revenue in its home nation, down from almost 33 percent in 2009. Former CEO Jorge Calvet didn’t mention Spain on a May 10 call with analysts after announcing the company’s first quarterly loss.

“The future is outside of Spain,” said Sean McLoughlin, clean energy analyst at HSBC Bank Plc in London. “Gamesa already moved most of their business out of Spain and the moratorium only helps to accelerate and complete that process.”

Thirty-one years ago, Spain erected its first wind turbine at Tarifa, a city on the peninsula’s southern tip that juts into the gusty Straits of Gibraltar which divide Spain from Morocco.
German Model

In the 2000s, Spain copied the German clean-power aid model, as did nations from Portugal to Israel and Japan, increasing subsidies to a pinnacle in 2007. That’s when a law granted 444 euros ($556) a megawatt-hour for home rooftop solar panels feeding the power grid, compared with an average 39 euros paid to competing coal- or gas-fired power plants :eek: :eek: .

By 2009, the consumer bill for clean-energy aid had risen to 6 billion euros a year, ahead of the 5.6 billion euros in Germany, whose economy is almost four times bigger, according to the Council of European Energy Regulators.
Rolling Subsidy Cuts

After four successive reductions in subsidies since then, the government on Jan. 27 this year announced the moratorium on aid for new projects. The next month Spain saw itself drop out of the 10 most attractive markets for renewable-energy investors for the first time, due to reduced aid, on an Ernst & Young ranking. Spain led the list from October 2003 through July 2006.

“What happened in Spain is that abruptly, they changed the industry by changing the policy, and that doesn’t help build a sustainable industry,” said Stephan Ritter, general manager of General Electric Co.’s European renewables unit.

“The history of Spanish wind energy policy is ‘We’re going to keep it stable’ and suddenly out of the blue this comes, and it’s a bomb,” the EWEA’s Kjaer said.

The decline started before this year. The 75,466 renewable energy jobs that existed in Spain at the industry’s peak in 2008 shrank to 54,925 in 2010, according to the Renewable Energy Producers Association’s most recent data. Including indirect jobs, the tally slumped from 131,229 to 111,455.

Iberdrola SA (IBE), based in Bilbao, became the world’s biggest owner of wind farms, taking its Spanish experience abroad over the past decade. It campaigned for solar subsidies to be ended, because much of the power-tariff deficit sits on the utilities’ balance sheets straining their finances. Iberdrola, which also runs gas, hydro and nuclear plants, is Spain’s biggest utility.
Solar Drag

Solar energy was the biggest drag on the system, accounting for almost half of the annual 6 billion euros of liabilities and producing just above 2 percent of the power :eek: :eek: :eek: , said Eduardo Tabbush, an analyst in London at Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

With peak electricity demand at less than half of capacity, the country doesn’t need more power plants, he said. Spain has a capacity of 99 gigawatts, and peak demand of 44 gigawatts.

Spain’s power-system debt swelled to 23 billion euros as successive governments set electricity prices for consumers that didn’t cover the revenue utilities booked. Even with January’s moratorium, the electricity system racked up another 762 million euros of debt in the first two months of the year, according to the energy regulator.

Scapegoat for Policies?

“You’re making renewables a scapegoat for a problem that was created as a result of incredibly bad policies,” said Kjaer.

Spain is the world’s fourth-biggest wind energy market by cumulative installed capacity, and in solar photovoltaic power, it ties the U.S. for fourth, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The nation installed at least a gigawatt of wind power capacity every year since 2001, peaking at 3.5 gigawatts in 2007, according to the Spanish Wind Energy Association.

“At the moment there’s not a single project planned for 2013,” Heikki Willstedt, director of energy policy at the Spanish Wind Energy Association, said in an interview. “We have to keep a rhythm of installation over the next two or three years to keep the industry here in Spain.”

Solar power installations have been bumpier, totaling 550 megawatts, 2,760 megawatts, 70 megawatts, 390 megawatts and 430 megawatts for the five years through 2011, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance data.

Even before the moratorium was established, opportunities were dimming for renewable power in Spain. The so-called pre- registry of wind projects, which had been approved to receive above-market electricity prices, was set to expire at the end of 2012. And a retroactive cap was set on the number of hours when solar generators can earn higher rates.
Acciona, Abengoa

Acciona SA (ANA), a developer of wind and solar projects that in 2011 derived more than three quarters of electricity sales in Spain, has less than half of its pipeline of new projects for 2012 in Spain. Energias de Portugal SA’s renewables division, based in Spain, has less than a fifth of its pipeline there.

At Abengoa SA (ABG), the portion of revenue from Spain fell to 27 percent last year from 39 percent in 2007. Abengoa has 1,210 megawatts of solar thermal plants either in construction or in a pre-construction phase, a third of it in Spain.

“It reaches a point where if more interesting markets open up and you have to export to those markets, many times it’s better to take the factories there,” said Willstedt. “All of this know-how could be lost quickly, or it’ll move away, or it could be bought by competitors.”

In a country where unemployment in April rose to 24.4 percent, the subsidy moratorium puts more positions at stake, according to Willstedt.
’Five Years on Ice’

In its March 30 budget, Spanish Premier Rajoy’s government gave no sign of when it would bring back subsidies, and the National Energy Commission, an advisory body, has published scenarios including a suspension until 2017.

“I don’t know any sector that can be put on ice for 5 years and then be taken out intact,” said T-Solar’s Laso.

Abengoa Chief Executive Officer Manuel Sanchez Ortega said Feb. 28 in an interview he thought the moratorium would last 18 months at the most.

“Then the industry will pick up the pace again,” Ortega said. “If it lasts more than 18 months we are running the serious risk of driving all this industry out of the country.”

To be sure, Spain is headed to meet its European Union target of getting 20 percent of all its energy from renewables by 2020. The country generated 23 percent of its electricity from renewable sources in 2010.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Jun 2012 08:13

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... ef=wl_home

Answer to TN power problems is blowin' in the wind

The last fortnight, when wind energy met over one-third of Tamil Nadu's energy demand, has proven the ability of renewable energy to consistently meet utility-scale energy supply, according to the Indian Wind Power Association. This illustrates the need for the policy makers at the State and Centre to restore the incentives to support the wind energy sector, said the Association. The association of wind energy producers said that since May 25 wind mills contributed over 2,800 MW to 3,500 MW of power to the State Grid. Referring to the official statistics available with the Tamil Nadu Transmission Corporation, the utility handling power transmission, they said for nearly a fortnight now, the wind mills have fed 70-80 million units of electricity daily into the State's power grid. This accounts for up to 35 per cent of Tamil Nadu's energy requirement. This supply has contributed significantly to alleviating the power shortage of about 3,000 MW in the State.


Tamil Nadu has made a mark on the global renewable energy scene as it is now second only to Denmark, where wind mills contribute up to 40 per cent to the power grid.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Virupaksha » 07 Jun 2012 05:02

This is the start of the monsoon season - wind energy should be reasonably high (with the typical variations) until september/october.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jun 2012 05:54

Image

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Jun 2012 23:08

Meanwhile elsewhere... ..one estimate shows that just 3% of German roofs have solar panels on them. Long ways to go. Another 15-20 years it looks like. Already Germany is turning into an exporter of electricity. So much electricity they don't know how to store it.

http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazi ... -grid.html
May 2012 was a record month for solar photovoltaics (PV) in Germany, according to figures presented by the German Association of Energy and Water Industries (BDEW). For the first time slightly more than four billion kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity from PV was generated and fed into the German grid last month.

This electricity generation from solar corresponds to about ten percent of Germany's electricity consumption during May and represents an increase of roughly 40 percent over PV generation in May 2011.


Image

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jul 2012 22:19

Meanwhile for those who are interested, NREL has published an excellent series of reports and images on how a 80% Renewable economy can be created for USA. This is not particularly aggressive as Denmark has a 100% renewable policy by 2050.

Hope MNRE can do the same for India. Is anyone listening?

Report
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52409-1.pdf

Image

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 09 Jul 2012 16:23

^^^
The Renewable Electricity Futures Study (RE Futures) provides an analysis of the grid
integration opportunities, challenges, and implications of high levels of renewable electricity
generation for the U.S. electric system. The study is not a market or policy assessment. Rather,
RE Futures examines renewable energy resources and many technical issues related to the
operability of the U.S. electricity grid, and provides initial answers to important questions about
the integration of high penetrations of renewable electricity technologies from a national
perspective.
RE Futures results indicate that a future U.S. electricity system that is largely
powered by renewable sources is possible and that further work is warranted to investigate this
clean generation pathway. The central conclusion of the analysis is that renewable electricity
generation from technologies that are commercially available today, in combination with a more
flexible electric system, is more than adequate to supply 80% of total U.S. electricity generation
in 2050 while meeting electricity demand on an hourly basis in every region of the United States.


This looks like study about integration of diverse sources in grid. The mix has been assumed

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Vipul » 26 Jul 2012 23:25

Rooftop solar will be the next big thing, say experts.

Rooftop solar power plants are set to take off in a big way in India, many speakers at REaction, a conference of the renewable energy industry here, said. The 3-day conference is being organised by Energy Alternatives India, a Chennai-based clean-tech consultancy.

Mr Pashupathy Gopalan, Managing Director, SunEdison, said solar plants on rooftops of commercial buildings can even now produce power at costs almost equal to distribution company rates.

Residential rooftops will reach “grid parity” within two years, he said.

It doesn’t matter even if policy-makers do nothing to push rooftop solar. “Economics will take over,” Mr Gopalan said.

SunEdison has put up a 100 kW plant on the roof of SCOPE, Standard Chartered Bank’s captive BPO in Chennai. The company has not disclosed at what price it sells electricity to StanChart. However, Mr Gopalan today said it is feasible to sell rooftop solar electricity at around Rs 7 a unit. The biggest advantage in this is that electricity prices are fixed for, say, 30 years. In contrast, even if grid power is a trifle cheaper today, it is bound to go up.

Mr Gopalan said the critical aspect about residential rooftop projects is raising funds. Typically, households are not inclined to incur capital expenditure for electricity that is anyway available from the grid. But even if they want to do it, they may find it difficult to raise funds from banks, he said.

Mr Madhavan Nampoothiri, Founder and Director, RESOLVE Energy Consultants, said a unit of rooftop solar power could cost Rs 10 to produce, if the system has battery-based storage. Without battery back up, the cost would be much less.

A rooftop solar plant with “grid-tie” will not need battery back-up, but the solar plant will stop functioning if the grid goes off. However, if a diesel genset is used as a back-up for periods when grid power fails, solar power could be harnessed the most, said Mr Rajeev Agarwal, Founder & Managing Director, Ardor Green Solar and Wind Pvt Ltd, a Chennai-based company that undertakes rooftop solar construction jobs, told Business Line today.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 16 Aug 2012 00:10

Here is a new approach to wind energy
Saphon Energy's bladeless appoach

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 01 Sep 2012 15:23

Needs registration for full article, but here it is anyway for the registered

Go Fly a Wind Turbine

As wind powers an increasing amount of electricity generation, entrepreneurs are hoping to replace modern windmills with a high-tech version of an even older technology: kites.

Winds are stronger and more consistent at higher altitudes, but building a 100-story-tall turbine isn't cost effective. So engineers are working on using kites to send aloft power generators that create energy when mounted rotors are spun by the wind; they transmit electricity through the cables that tie them to the earth as a string tethers a child's kite

News related to such mechanisms have appeared earlier/elsewhere too.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 15 Sep 2012 19:53

Two studies looking at effects on climate from large scale extraction of energy from winds.

More realistically, Jacobson and Archer found that 4 million 5-megawatt turbines operating on the planet's surface could supply as much as 7.5 terawatts of power without significant negative impacts on the climate. This is more than half the world's power demands in 2030, optimistically assuming that all energy is converted to clean energy by then.

A few years ago in Maharshtra there were rumours of effect of wind-mill farms on weather. Do not have ready references for those times. We are talking about climate here and that looks free from any major impacts. There is need to do more work
While these researchers focused on the global climate effects of very large-scale wind power, more study is needed. Archer said the findings suggest that even heavy use of wind power is likely a smart, safe and clean way to generate energy.

"There is still a lot of interesting work to be done on local and regional climatic consequences of wind," Marvel said.

Marvel and her colleagues detailed their findings online Sept. 9 in the journal Nature Climate Change. Jacobson and Archer published their research online Sept. 10 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Both teams will present their work at the Airborne Wind Energy Conference on Sept. 11 and 12 in Hampton, Va.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Hiten » 23 Sep 2012 21:56

Off-Grid Solar-Wind Hybrid Electricity Supply To India's Lossar Valley in Himachal Pradesh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hflvW9yKgJo

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Vipul » 13 Oct 2012 22:05

40% dip in wind power capacity addition in first half.

Fresh installations of wind power capacity in the country in the first six months of the current financial year fell 40 per cent compared with capacity addition in the same period last year.

In the April-September period of 2012-13, the country added 851.35 MW against 1,402.66 MW in the same period of 2011-12.

The fall has been attributed mainly to the removal of two key incentives that were available to those who put up wind mills—accelerated depreciation and generation-based incentive.

The figures also underscore the wind power developers face in the two key states—Tamil Nadu and Gujarat.

In Tamil Nadu, the State that leads the country with 40 per cent of total wind power capacity in the country, the existing wind power producers are facing numerous problems, which is driving away fresh investments. Some of these problems are: inadequacy of grid to evacuate the power, humungous delays in the state-owned utility in making the payments for purchased power, unremunerative increase in tariff (by 12 paise to Rs 2.51 a unit) and increase in cross-subsidy charges.

As a result, fresh capacity additions in Tamil Nadu were only 162.95 MW, compared with 644.21 MW previously. Industry experts say that even whatever capacity came were only spillovers from the previous year; the state might add not more than 50 MW in the rest of the year.

In Gujarat, the fall is attributed to uncertainty over the state government’s policies.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 28 Dec 2012 19:00

The Multiple Distortions of Wind Subsidies
Federal subsidies for new wind-power generation will end on Dec. 31 unless they are renewed by Congress. For the sake of our economy and the smooth operation of the energy market, Congress should let the subsidies lapse. They waste taxpayer money, subvert the allocation of capital, and generate a social cost many times the price tag of the subsides themselves.

Since 1992, the federal government has expended almost $24 billion to encourage investment in wind power through direct spending, tax breaks, R&D, loan guarantees and other federal support of electric power. The Joint Committee on Taxation estimates that a one-year extension of existing federal subsidies for wind power would cost taxpayers almost $12 billion.

The costs of wind subsidies are extraordinarily high—$52.48 per one million watt hours generated, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. By contrast, the subsidies for generating the same amount of electricity from nuclear power are $3.10, from hydropower 84 cents, from coal 64 cents, and from natural gas 63 cents.

In addition, wind power benefits from federal mandates requiring the use of renewable energy by federal agencies along with preferential treatment by the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service. Many states provide additional tax breaks, subsidies and mandates for wind power. The total value of these additional subsidies has never been calculated.

But the cost to taxpayers is only part of the problem. Subsidized, wind-generated electricity is displacing other, much cheaper sources of power. The subsidies are so high that wind-power producers can pay utilities to take the electricity they produce and still make a profit. Such "negative pricing" has occurred for some time in the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest and in Texas—and, according to the Energy Information Administration, it will likely grow.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 28 Dec 2012 19:08

Isn't lack of site one of the reasons for dip?
Although there is a report (link posted earlier I think) from a US lab which said that the potential in India is under-estimated. The report was prepared by a couple of ex-PRAYAS people who see to have gone to this lab. Too lazy to search for the links

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Dec 2012 21:34

The main reason for dip is the cancellation of the accelerated depreciation benefit. Also TN is in an ongoing battle to charge wheeling charges for companies that put up farms for their own use. TANGEDCO is also bankrupt hand hasn’t cleared bills for 12 months+, this despite wind being the cheapest source of power at present. In TN typically about 1MWhr is installed per 50 acres. This is often much less in areas like muppandal even though this is well below the world norm of 1MWhr per 80 acres. So the 7000MW installed in TN uses up 7000x50 = 350,000 acres. /212 = 1,650 sqkm. Considering TN has ~ 130,000 sqkm, only about 1.3% of the land mass has been covered. Not even scratched the surface. So plenty of area is available. Is this land near, transmission, available for use, etc is another question.

Also TN has shifted focus to an aggressive solar plan to put up 3,000 MW of commercial scale solar in under 3 years. 1,000 MW of bidding has been released in first phase for completion by Dec 2013. Aggressive.

Some early reports say that pricing for the cheapest players has now dipped below Rs 7 per kw. The number I saw was Rs 6.75 per kw with foreign financing of the equipment.

TN has the advantage also dirt cheap wasteland in several Southern and Western districts, esp as it a much more urban state, with 50%+ living in towns and cities. I have seen prices of 2 lakh to 5 lakhs per acre for blasted un-irrigated land in Ramanthapuram area. My uncle offered me a 160 acre lot for that price. Even if the developers pay 10 lakh per acre, 3000 MW will require 15,000 acres, so total cost of land will be 1,500 crores. This is only about 5%-6% of project cost.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 28 Dec 2012 23:33

A bit OT but,
Will developments in thoirum-based nuclear power will blow away need for refining renewables? Interest is going up in the western countries too. India had eyes set on thorium since the start. Over last one year, China also is in the game.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Dec 2012 23:47

Good question Kenop,

Thorium has been pushed repeatedly, esp. after U-235 once thru suffers yet another catastrophic flame out.

Having looked at and run the numbers, there is NO commercially viable Thorium pathway yet available. This is despite well over 50 separate teams making $Billion attempts over 80+ years. Even India quietly concedes that a viable cycle is at least 30 years away as it has been for the past 60+ years.

The reason for this is quite simple. There can be no thorium reactors. What we get are U-233 reactors. Getting from Thorium to U-233 adds so many steps, causing inefficiency at each step that our weak human processes are unable to create a viable cycle. With present physics/materials this is likely to remain true indefinitely.

There is no alternative to biting the bullet and figuring out a way to get intermittent renewable energy system on board.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 29 Dec 2012 12:35

Are there any public domain calculations available for a quick look?

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby chetak » 29 Dec 2012 13:04

kenop wrote:A bit OT but,
Will developments in thoirum-based nuclear power will blow away need for refining renewables? Interest is going up in the western countries too. India had eyes set on thorium since the start. Over last one year, China also is in the game.



Hundreds of tons of thorium sands were exported from India in yet another major scam.

Any clear idea as to where exactly they went and who was involved?

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby disha » 29 Dec 2012 13:21

Theo_Fidel wrote: The reason for this is quite simple. There can be no thorium reactors.... causing inefficiency at each step that our weak human processes are unable to create a viable cycle. With present physics/materials this is likely to remain true indefinitely.


Really? Do you really know?

1. Do you know that a 3rd world country with hindu rate of growth is on the verge of achieving the three stage Thorium fuel cycle by the turn of the decade? That the stage I is very near its planned goals?

2. That inspite of all technology denials, budget issues, creating a democracy (even though it is still having its pains)., India is on the verge of operationalising fast breeder reactor? As soon as maybe next year? Yes the 500 MWe may be piddly, but it will provide for energy needs for a minimum 400 years?

3. That one of the third stage like AHWRs may come up as soon as 2020? Utilizing the vast amount of Thorium reserves which India has?

You know what will happen when in a generation (25 years from now) when a fleet of reactors in stage II and stage III comes online? Maybe you will have to read the right books.

In the meantime, in case you are worried about the dangers of molten salt reactors (MSRs): then read up on GE Durathon (ecomagination). It is a liquid sodium metal-halide battery in full commercial production.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby disha » 29 Dec 2012 13:23

chetak wrote:
kenop wrote:A bit OT but,
Will developments in thoirum-based nuclear power will blow away need for refining renewables? Interest is going up in the western countries too. India had eyes set on thorium since the start. Over last one year, China also is in the game.



Hundreds of tons of thorium sands were exported from India in yet another major scam.

Any clear idea as to where exactly they went and who was involved?


US and China are looking at restaring their Thorium based technologies and here we have people advocating shutting it down just when we are on the verge of a breakthrough. Jai Ho.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby kenop » 29 Dec 2012 13:43

The usual suspects
Some details and links here

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 29 Dec 2012 14:10

Take a look at what this PHD has to say. Also look at the comments below. It is unlikely there is a future in Thorium.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/201 ... r-options/

India pursues Thorium because has no other options, not because it is a more commercially viable process. Regular folks in India never get this dynamic. The rest of the world has tried Thorium repeatedly and been forced to give up. India knows all this but is simply left with no options to pursue for a well funded DAE. Not dissimilar to how mining Singhbum for Uranium was ultimately nonviable, hence precipitating the 123 deal.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby vishvak » 29 Dec 2012 18:49

Let us not read too much into a PhD thesis as a general overall factor.

For one, there are hardly thesis about how USA itself facilitated nuclear sector in Pakistan on one hand and on the other hand was a member of NSG to undermine nuclear tech in India. USA therefore has no neutral position on nuclear energy to begin with and coincidentally, there are no PhD thesis on how USA itself indulged in nuke proliferation by supplying tech to Pakistan while setting up tech denial regimes especially for Indian nuclear sector.

Are there any thesis on subject of how oil prices are manipulated by suppliers and by oil markets?

As far as Thorium tech is concerned let us, once again, go through the routine of how others are not perfectly commercially viable too in simple yes/no format.

A. Does Indian energy sector suffers from energy deficiency as well as deficiency in meeting future demands? - Yes.
B. Does Indian energy sector have enough independent domestic resources for energy intensive enterprises such as commercial industrial complexes, railways, etc? - No.

C. Are nations indulging in oil price manipulations for decades? - Yes.
D. Do Indians have a handle on oil price manipulations to reduce its prices and negative effects for India? - No.
E. Can there be a guarantee that oil princes will be cheap and stable over decades? - No. Very clearly no guarantee.
F. Do Indians import expensive and commercially expensive oil for decades already - Yes.
G. Are Indians denied nuclear tech knowhow in spite of expensive oil imports for decades? - Yes.

H. Will increase in nuclear energy reduce dependence on expensive and polluting oil for places where its use is substituted? - Yes.
I. Do we have huge reserves of Uranium or other such nuclear fuel? - No.
J. Do we have sufficient reserves of Thorium for some decades atleast? - Yes.
K. Should we therefore approach Thorium energy cycle - keeping tech domestic as well - so that energy remains independent and as cheap as possible? - Yes.

That is one way to look at in general. This even before merits of domestic tech are taken into consideration i.e. growth of domestic tech in energy sector, avoiding targeted tech denials by nuke proliferating countries, etc. The Thorium tech when starts will avoid paying out huge monies progressively to expensive imports too.

By the way, how come we are not discussing oil price fluctuations by first world and oil rich countries here - that has resulted in inflation for decades for others? Let us look into this finer aspect of energy sector too otherwise everything, other than a few things here and there, look fine and dandy only.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Rishirishi » 31 Dec 2012 06:40

When it comes to Solar power, one important factor is forgotten. It will reduce the radiation on the roof, and reduce the demand for AC in summer days. In winter days, the panes can be removed.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 31 Dec 2012 15:03

vishvak wrote:K. Should we therefore approach Thorium energy cycle - keeping tech domestic as well - so that energy remains independent and as cheap as possible? - Yes.


I don't think it is anyone's case that all these thousands and thousands of crores of Thorium investment should be thrown away. Continue the research at a modest level by all means. Don't count on it to save our a$$.

It is increasingly clear however that a commercially viable pathway is not there with present technology and approach. The only commercially viable nuclear power process is U-235 once thru. This was the entire logic of 123.

Back when Thorium research was started, PV electricity was not available at Rs6.2 (some early TN bid reports) per kw. India did not have this option. Even the latest GE & AREVA designs now have electricity costs approaching 12-14 cents per kw or roughly Rs 6- Rs 7 per kw. Even in best case scenarios a commercial Thorium cycle will approach 24-25 cents a kw, even assuming the present show stoppers can be overcome. Somewhere in the Rs12- Rs14 per kw range. Like I said commercially nonviable. Russia is now demanding double prices for any future KKNPP reactors, which really is the true commercial price. Units 1&2 were essentially supplied free, except for labor. So you can expect KKNPP 3-4 to cost Rs7-Rs8 per kw. There is a reason NPCIL got sticker shock from AREVA and is dragging its feet over Jaitapur.

Just to give a heads up, TN plans to add 3,000 MWHr of pv in 36 months flat, no one really doubts that most of this will come online. Compare that to the 16 years and counting that KKNPP has been under construction and still not commissioned, 24 years in planning, or the 14 years the PFBR is still under construction. Considering a plf of 20%-22%, that 3,000 MWhr of PV will provide a similar quantity of electricity as TN's share from KKNPP, depending on plf from a brand new reactor. Solar might even do better for first 5-10 years as there is no commissioning period, you turn it on and it runs, period.

Wind is by far the cheapest source of new power we have, Solar is now cheaper than new imported nuclear.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby vishvak » 31 Dec 2012 21:53

The fact is India imports billions of dollars of expensive oil, about 150 billion dollars, makes it very clear that a few thousands of crore Rs. could be considered a very good way to develop an indigenous tech. Already mentioned again that we do not have handle on overall oil pricing and price rigging to have some kind of futuristic all is well scenario.

I am sure an inbuilt tech would be much more commercially viable, considering that today all the monies are gone - 150 billion $$ each year. w.r.t. Thorium There should be a part of total cost that would stay in India.

Not to mention PV energy has its own limitations, already mentioned, w.r.t. energy intensive industries, just as any other renewable.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby nelson » 01 Jan 2013 12:10

Theo,

It seems you are mixing up energy and power. Like using kW in place of kWh while talking of energy/ electricity and using MWhr in place of MW or MWpeak in case of plant capacities/power.

Also, why should we consider TN's share of power in KNPP only? Is the rest planned to be donated to Sri Lanka.

All the economics will boil down to price per unit of electricity that is actually injected in grid. As of now, your statement that 'Solar is cheaper than imported nuclear' is false and misleading. Whether it will be so in future, is anybody's guess.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby alexis » 02 Jan 2013 13:50

Dear Theo,

You are still piddling that solar is cheaper than nuclear? We had extensive discussions on this subject in the nuclear thread. Solar may become cheaper in future; but not today!

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby member_20292 » 02 Jan 2013 23:16

^^^ Proof please.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Jan 2013 00:11

AFAIK no one refuted my IRR numbers esp. for new nuclear.
One senses a lot of institutional anger at the economic challenge of Solar but it is not going away.

Run this IRR calculation again. New Nuclear.

Project cost ($6.5 Million) +/- 35 Crore / MWhr of capacity. (Flamenville is now heading for $9 million, or Rs 50 crore)
Plf - 85%
Debt term - 20 years. 70% debt/ 30% equity
Debt rate - 10% (real present rate is 12%)
O/M/Fuel/etc - .5 Crore

Financially viable tariff needed - Rs8 per kw. Even Rs 7.5 gives negative IRR for several years.

Compare to Solar.

Project cost ($1.5 Million) +/- 8 Crore / MWhr of capacity. It is actually heading for 7 crore at present.
Plf - 20%
Debt term - 20 years. 70% debt/ 30% equity
Debt rate - 10% (real present rate is 12%)
O/M/etc (no fuel) - .05 Crore

Financially viable tariff needed - Rs6 per kw. DSCR of 1.20. Even Rs 5.25 is viable. DSCR of 1.05.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Jan 2013 00:16

The other thing to note is solar is completely private sector initiative.
If there is one thing we have learned over 60 years is that governments need get out of the economic sector. They are horribly wasteful.

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Re: Renewable Sources of Energy

Postby nelson » 03 Jan 2013 13:33

The base figure that has been taken as cost of greenfield NPP is false, at least in India. Taking project cost in the USA and applying today's exchange rates will not give any indication of actual viability of nuclear plant in India. Even the Jaitapur plant which has given a shock to NPCIL, as you say, is estimated to cost Rs 20 crore / MWe. Then, taking a figure of Rs 35 crore / MWe is not fair, to say the least.

Also, calculating the economics of the technologies being compared, must be done over the period of its life and not the debt term alone. Whereas the life of technology(EPR) at Jaitapur is 35 years (60 years claimed by Areva), the same for established Solar PV would be 25 years only.

Please do not make it a private vs public sector argument, and appeal to popular sentiments in BRF. Renewables may be the way to go in future, but it is not a ready replacement for other alternatives. And given the energy hunger in the country, both nuclear and renewables have their place alongside conventional sources.


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