The Indian National ID Card Project

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranav » 10 Nov 2009 09:28

sinha wrote:
No known system in the world has implemented Multi-Biometric de-duplication and fusion to the scale of 600 Million + entities. The sense I get seeing all this is that people are underestimating technical challenge.

So this committee has its task cut out. In the end, they will end up building a google scale data center and a massive compute grid which keeps doing de-dup runs for new enrollments.
Worst case, they may take a very stupid decision of allowing multiple System integrator to choose a finger print , IRIS and face recognition technology partner and run de-dups and provide the results to UIDIA at the end of the day.

Please Please invent something for India scale rather than choosing the same old L1, sagem, Cognitec, NEC....


Can one not take a hierarchical approach? Suppose you do 10 fingerprints, face, and iris scan.

First have some encoding of the face (apparently they have standard techniques like measuring distance between eyes). The arrange the encodings in some lexicographic order. When a new person comes for an ID you don't have to scan the whole database - you can just look up the relevant subset and do detailed matching only on that subset.

Asit P
BRFite
Posts: 311
Joined: 14 May 2009 02:33

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Asit P » 10 Nov 2009 17:44

Sachin wrote:Has this been highighted else where? Or is that your understanding that the card would be a biometric card.

I feel people are only getting cynical with the contradictory statements coming out once too often :).


Sahin, you are right about the contradictory statements.They are bound to create some confusion. However, the UID being biometric has been highlighted many a time. Let me quote few excerpts from this article of Economic Times. I guess this might clear out many questions which we have in mind.
The data base maintained by the authority will contain, for the first time, biometric information by way of a fingerprint. The central data base will have your name, the names of your parents, their UID numbers, an expiry date and a photograpgh. The authority will answer queries about identity in a yes or no format while agencies utilising the facility can store data only if authorised to do so.

The ID will not be a card, but just a number issued to a "resident of India", a defination that means that it is not proof of citizenship.

The Council "in principle" approved the draft strategy and though UIDs will not be mandatory, the IDs would ultimately be made compulsory by implementing agencies of various schemes. People would require ID numbers as benefits may be mandatorily linked to numbers.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby ramana » 12 Nov 2009 02:19

Tanaji, When you have a chance try to readup the US Social Security number issue and Rossevelt's comments on them.


LINK

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 12 Nov 2009 19:26

Just attended Nandan Nilkeni's talk on the subject. I have taken some notes, will post the notes and my opinion on the talk and subject follow.
I have tried to arrange the gist of talk, the organization is mine, any mistakes please point out.

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 12 Nov 2009 20:12

Unique Identification Project: Issues and challenges
Nandan Nilkeni
Indian academy of Sciences Platinum Jubilee Celebration
12/11/09
Part-I
First and foremost UIDAI will issue numbers not cards. Its main use is for verification of an individual’s identity. This will be a unique number and will be generated randomly.

The number will be not intelligent. That is it will not contain any information. This is different from Sweden which includes birth date in number. It is different from social security number of US in the sense that UID is biometric and is verified online.

It will have a standardized identity attributes. Demographic features will be included like Name, Address, Date of Birth, Sex, Name of Parent(s) . The last one will be especially be important in case of infants and children, where the biometric markers will not be completely developed. It will have no profiling attributes and will not contain any kind of transaction records.

The registrars for this will be state govts. Banks, LIC, Oil Ministry etc. The database will be updated every day at the end of day and de-duplication will be carried out on the updated database. The registration will be by a uniform enrollment process. Duplicates will be preferably caught at the point of entry, probably using demographics as the primary key and biometrics as the second.

It will contain biometrics for identity, currently all 10 fingers and picture(s?) of individual. Inclusion of Iris is being debated, maybe included later as the technology becomes cheap.

It will not require any other kind of documentation for getting the ID. This is because the project is targeted towards the poor and marginal people who do not possess such documents. It will provide flexibility to the partners in the “know your residents +” (KYR+) program. Other verifications as needed by the agencies to be done by the agencies themselves like passport, etc.

The ID number perse doesn’t give you any rights such as citizenship or any other entitlement. These will be given by the agency responsible and is upto the agency to decide, whether you are entitled to get the benefit.

The getting the ID is voluntary but will be required for other services like passport, NREGA, Bank account, PDS, Public healthcare, (Vaccination??) etc. The verification of the id can be done by off the shelf fingerprint readers which can be connected to mobiles.

This database’s main target is to reach all people and remove the number of ghosts that exist in the current database. For this reason biometrics are important as they cannot be duplicated (atleast not easily). It will also provide all-India mobility and will be a self cleaning and single enrollment system.
Case in point: A lady in Gujarat had 10,000 PAN cards.
Such ghosts eat up lot of revenue and also cause a loss of penetration of governmental schemes such as PDS, these schemes cannot go the last mile as it is difficult to know whether the person who is receiving the benefit is indeed the one who is entitled to get it. The schemes cannot run the distance and give the benefits to those who actually need them the most. Inclusive growth needs access to growth for all, which is hindered by the requirement of documentation from even the most backward people and verification of the person who gets the benefits.
Last edited by K Mehta on 12 Nov 2009 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 12 Nov 2009 20:31

Part-II
Challenges
Biometric:
No single biometric modality is sufficient for uniqueness, multiple fingers and photos will be required at the least.

Significant % of the population will not have biometric markers, viz., Children whose biometric markers would not be developed.For them their files would be connected to their parents who have a UID.

In case of many manual laborers the finger prints get erased due to hard labor. There might be a need to use other markers for verification in such cases.

Iris scanning if included will up the cost and will affect the reach of the program.

De-duplication with biometric markers will need massive computational resources.

Network:
For far areas the scanning has to be done in offline mode and upload has to be done in batches

The transfer should not jam the mobile networks, so the transfer should be low bandwidth. but detailed enough for identification.

And last but not the least

Security and robustness of Database.
Notes end here, my personal comments follow

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3251
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 12 Nov 2009 21:11

Thanks K Mehta, for the effort to type it up.

It certainly clears a lot of things up about the purpose and mission.

ramana,

Thanks for the link, I will take a read... 46 pages :)

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 7654
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Sachin » 12 Nov 2009 21:26

K Mehta wrote:It will not require any other kind of documentation for getting the ID. This is because the project is targeted towards the poor and marginal people who do not possess such documents.

Do you have any more information on this aspect? From what you have noted looks like any one can just walk in and demand an UID. BDs and Pakis would love this provision. This may seem to be okay now, but later if it reaches a stage where UID becomes the absolute point of identity verification it would lead to problems. BDs and Pakis can happily give their UID and declare that there credentials are genuine. Or is it that irrespective of whether a person has a UID or not, the present procedures for passport etc. would be followed?

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 12 Nov 2009 21:44

Sachin wrote:Do you have any more information on this aspect? From what you have noted looks like any one can just walk in and demand an UID. BDs and Pakis would love this provision. This may seem to be okay now, but later if it reaches a stage where UID becomes the absolute point of identity verification it would lead to problems. BDs and Pakis can happily give their UID and declare that there credentials are genuine. Or is it that irrespective of whether a person has a UID or not, the present procedures for passport etc. would be followed?

I think thats where the parent trap will work, more later.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby ramana » 12 Nov 2009 21:49

Looks like the primary focus is security - internal and economic. Finally we will get to know how many people are really there.

Sachin, Cross checking will remove duplicate IDs. Any one can demand and get an ID but if found to be already in existence will be removed.

K Mehta, Thanks and good job as usual.
ramana

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3251
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 12 Nov 2009 21:54

Sachin,

I think its the latter. Its better if we as Nilekani has said, stop thinking of UID as a "card". Think of it as a number or another name for you. If I understand this correctly, all it will do is assign you a unique number and that is it. It may have demographic features like address with it, but again think of it as a Mallu name (refer the nukkad dhaaga) where the residence is a part of the name. All they are trying to do is to come up with a mechanism to eliminate duplicates from the system, hence the biometric connection.

I guess now the only question to ask is, is the ability to have "uniqueness" worth the expense of thousands of crores?

The cynic in me tells me that there other drivers for this than the one Nilekani has mentioned which is

Such ghosts eat up lot of revenue and also cause a loss of penetration of governmental schemes such as PDS, these schemes cannot go the last mile as it is difficult to know whether the person who is receiving the benefit is indeed the one who is entitled to get it.


We have all been hearing reports on how the SEBI and the government coming down hard upon the banks and Indian Industry for cases where people make applications for issues, and other share transactions with multiple identities. This is common practice. Rather then spend the effort and expense to solve the companies seem to have hit on this idea: pass on that effort and cost to GoI (and the taxpayer) that will yield them a ready made UID. As Nilekani himself says, banks will be the biggest beneficiary of this effort. The "PDS and government scheme benefit" may be an after thought.. something like "wont someone please think of the children" meme in The Simpsons show. You have to hand it to them: the Indian industry GETS PAID to implement something that earlier they would have to do themselves.

sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sinha » 13 Nov 2009 12:35

Pranav wrote:Can one not take a hierarchical approach? Suppose you do 10 fingerprints, face, and iris scan.

First have some encoding of the face (apparently they have standard techniques like measuring distance between eyes). The arrange the encodings in some lexicographic order. When a new person comes for an ID you don't have to scan the whole database - you can just look up the relevant subset and do detailed matching only on that subset.


Pranav
If you are saying why dont we go in a hierarchical fashion in terms of biometric modalities i.e. do finger print first, from the subset do face and then IRIS, then this approach does not work in practice. Can I suggest that you go through the MultiBiometrics section of this link http://www.cse.msu.edu/rgroups/biometri ... tions.html - wherein there is enough evidence that launching parallel identifications across different modalities - then normalizing the results to same range - and then fusing the result to get similarity scores using various techniques is the most robust way of getting away from all the issues which will occur if you choose one biometric modality (Failure to enrol, Noise in sensed data, Intra-class variations, Inter-class similarities, non-universality and spoofing etc etc).

Once you combine the results from different modalities the FAR (system erronously judging Person X to be Person Y) or FRR (system not identifying Person X as Person X) - which are two key metrics for accuracy improve much more than single modality.

what you described for face is typically called Feature extraction or encoding (say Minutae extraction in finger print) and all matching engines will encode the biometric sample and check against the encoded modality (not raw). Incidentally face recognition (2-D) will go beyond just distance between the eyes.
Inspite of this encoded approach, the raw hardware required for matching units goes up quite a lot in civilian systems. Having 10 prints is a great idea as it reduces the hardware required for searching.

Usually some systems tend to bypass this by "biographical filtering" - the to be launched passport system reduces the biometric matching set by doing a search on age range, sex, metaphone index first name, DOB to draw a short list and then run the finger print search against it. Not the best way to do things.

sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sinha » 13 Nov 2009 12:37

Tanaji wrote:the Indian industry GETS PAID to implement something that earlier they would have to do themselves.


Tanaji, small correction - Indian Industry gets a small %age as majority of money will go to providers of the technology - US, Europe and Japan.

AjayKK
BRFite
Posts: 1520
Joined: 10 Jan 2008 10:27

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby AjayKK » 13 Nov 2009 13:00

Sachin wrote:This may seem to be okay now, but later if it reaches a stage where UID becomes the absolute point of identity verification it would lead to problems.


Tanaji wrote:
I guess now the only question to ask is, is the ability to have "uniqueness" worth the expense of thousands of crores?

The cynic in me tells me that there other drivers for this than the one Nilekani has mentioned which is

.

Not being cynical, but anybody remembers MAPIN where the database was only 7 million ? :)

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 13 Nov 2009 13:52

Personal opinion:
The project is very futuristic in nature and should not be seen with a narrow frame of mind as to its current use. It creates a computerized central database for all governmental and non-governmental uses. It would create a key mostly, a key that cannot be easily duplicated. It would make changing identity a really difficult task. Especially it would not be worth the effort for a small thing.

The linking of parent and child UIDs is a very interesting feature and perhaps would be an important security feature. Say the system takes 20 years to complete, but after 20 years an illegal alien will not be able to claim to have dropped from heaven as a 25 year old without having to show his parents also existed and were alive and had a UID, which could be used to key other databases to find the janamkundli of the parents.

The biometrics is the key here, so will be the de-duplication process. I don’t know much about softwares that can compare one fingerprint with another, perhaps this has to be done manually the first time creating key identity features.

The biometrics will clear a lot of ghosts like those that haunt our voter lists, school enrollments and PDS databases. There have been lots of instances of ghost schools with ghost students and teachers that have been getting governmental money. The important thing will be biometrics and parent-children linking, these two will be the key features and since this doesn’t do away with screening by other authorities, it will be add a layer of security.

Also newer features might be included as computational power improves.

Sachin wrote:is it that irrespective of whether a person has a UID or not, the present procedures for passport etc. would be followed?

Yes, they will have to. He said UID will not entitle some one to citizenship.

Tanaji wrote: stop thinking of UID as a "card". Think of it as a number or another name for you. If I understand this correctly, all it will do is assign you a unique number and that is it. It may have demographic features like address with it, but again think of it as a Mallu name (refer the nukkad dhaaga) where the residence is a part of the name. All they are trying to do is to come up with a mechanism to eliminate duplicates from the system, hence the biometric connection.

Exactly

I guess now the only question to ask is, is the ability to have "uniqueness" worth the expense of thousands of crores?

The cynic in me tells me that there other drivers for this than the one Nilekani has mentioned which is

Rather then spend the effort and expense to solve the companies seem to have passed on that effort and cost to GoI (and the taxpayer) that will yield them a ready made UID. As Nilekani himself says, banks will be the biggest beneficiary of this effort. The "PDS and government scheme benefit" may be an after thought

Even the Education department will be using this scheme, so school which receives govt. money will have to use UIDs for the students enrolled, that would play a big role in rural education I believe.
I think none of us has any idea as to how much revenue the ghosts actually eat up or deny to the govt.

However i believe this de-duplication thing is going to be a huge challenge, a bigger challenge will be protecting the database while giving a lot of people access to it.

Perhaps the key here would be to discuss how exactly the Social Security system has been working, given that the system is actually based on similar idea and what advantages or disadvantages it has. How the additional features of UID will add to these also need to be discussed.

I believe it is a great opportunity and huge challenge, but if this project succeeds it will improve quite a few lives.

AjayKK wrote:Not being cynical, but anybody remembers MAPIN where the database was only 7 million ? :)

That is an excellent point Ajaykk, why did the sebi roll it back? Also it shows that we have the resources to put a similar plan into action. What was the major drawback of this system?

sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sinha » 13 Nov 2009 15:28

K Mehta wrote:That is an excellent point Ajaykk, why did the sebi roll it back? Also it shows that we have the resources to put a similar plan into action. What was the major drawback of this system?

Google Maharaj pulls up
Indian Express/Jul 2005 wrote:According to a Sebi appointed committee, substantive concerns of fingerprinting, cost and reach as well as the design of the present system would defeat Mapin objectives and this system should not be continued. If continued, it would require major modifications to meet the objectives and still not be able to address concerns of the investors, Sebi said in a release here today. Moreover, if the exemptions approach is continued, the present system will end up covering only a small part of the total investors which would defeat the objective of creating an inventory of all investors.

Hence, the committee recommended that a new system be introduced which would be able to create a database of all investors utilising the existing information resources and infrastructure, including the data already captured by the Mapin system, in cost-efficient and investor-friendly way, it said.
This could also incorporate some new critical features, including information on associates.
The new system should also be designed to ensure that this is the last time a capital market ID shall be issued, it said.
The committee said Sebi should select a firm for developing the software for generation of unique IDs and this software should be handed over to the implementing agency to be appointed by Sebi.
The agency was to undertake the exercise of combining the databases and then generating the new unique IDs to the existing investors.
The agency was entrusted with the task of assigning unique IDs to new investors and for maintaining and updating the database, it said.
A technical group may be formed by Sebi to examine the implementation feasibility, cost, logistics and schedule involved in creating the suggested database, the committee added

Looks like Technology challenges, Poor coverage of data, enrollment process issues, Privacy Issues, allocated to NSDL on single tender basis were all parts of problem. Since UID has come in, many systems have been put on hold which require identification to be established e.g. CBDT's Biometric PAN Card system.

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 13 Nov 2009 15:54

edited: got the link

So how exactly can these limitations apply to the UID project?
privacy issues I think were also raised in the talk, with IISc director saying "I dont want a number"

AjayKK
BRFite
Posts: 1520
Joined: 10 Jan 2008 10:27

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby AjayKK » 13 Nov 2009 16:10

IIRC, one of the reasons for scrapping MAPIN was that the terminals were too few and it got very chaotic. And large parts of the 7 million investors were concentrated at few places.
So geograph. distribution was not a problem.

Of course, market circles say that vested interests caused the scrapping..

Asit P
BRFite
Posts: 311
Joined: 14 May 2009 02:33

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Asit P » 13 Nov 2009 20:00

@ K Mehta

Very good posts.

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby K Mehta » 14 Nov 2009 13:21

Ajay, even if the terminals were few, if the process was continued for longer time the issue of incomplete coverage would have been resolved. The problem with Indian public mentality is to get things done on the last date (me included). that would cause a lot of trouble in case of financial orgs. like SEBI.

Vested interests might have played an important role too.

I would like someone from the US to give us an idea about the social security number concept, not a commentary but a personal perspective. Any BRFites from US please share your perspectives on the limitations, advantages and disadvantages of the system and problems that can occur in implementation of such a system in India

Whether this whole thing is a fraud, pension scheme for IT people or not; the fact remains that this system is being implemented, whether we like it or not. It would be a better line of discussion to debate what fruits can be got out such a system being implemented. How similar projects were implemented inside and outside the country and the issues that concerned them.

Asit P
BRFite
Posts: 311
Joined: 14 May 2009 02:33

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Asit P » 21 Nov 2009 03:30

Unisys to partner local IT companies to bid for UID project
UNISYS, one of the biggest government solution providers in the US, plans to bid for India’s national Unique identity (UID) project by partnering with country’s top tech firms including Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), Wipro and Tech Mahindra.

The company has already deployed identity, biometric and immigration control solutions in countries such as Australia, Malaysia, the US, Panama, Canada and Angola.

Source:-http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/software/Unisys-to-partner-local-IT-companies-to-bid-for-UID-project/articleshow/5252973.cms

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4843
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Neshant » 21 Nov 2009 12:04

I suggest they launch a pilot project after they have nailed down the details and developed a prototype card.

Blowing a load of money on something that turns out to be useless would be a crime.

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 21 Nov 2009 15:08

IMO Nandan nilekani was chosen for the very same reason, that it it should not turn out to be headache as another gov projects.
Beside, they are not developing the system but integrating with components which have already been tested elsewhere. I see no need for them, and especially with Nandan to wait and worry about the technical aspects,which is their strength.Its implementation, they should worry about.
What if giving Iris scan is against someone's faith. Influential people trying to tamper with their record and blah blah!

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 02 Dec 2009 22:01

Notes from official (confidential :mrgreen: ) UIDAI report "Creating a unique identity number for every resident in India"
I will try to create and post notes from report in parts.This may take some time, but it will create a good reference for future developments.
Part-1 features:
Features of the UIDAI model
a)The UID number will only provide identity
b)The UID will prove identity, not citizenship
c)A pro-poor approach
d)Enrolment of residents with proper verification
The Authority will ensure that
the Know Your Resident (KYR) standards don’t become a barrier for enrolling the poor, and
will devise suitable procedures to ensure their inclusion without compromising the integrity
of the data.

e)A partnership model
The UIDAI will be the regulatory authority
managing a Central ID Data Repository (CIDR), which will issue UID numbers, update resident
information, and authenticate the identity of residents as required.
In addition, the Authority will partner with agencies such as central and state departments
and private sector agencies who will be ‘Registrars’ for the UIDAI. Registrars will process UID
applications, and connect to the CIDR to de-duplicate resident information and receive UID
numbers. These Registrars can either be enrollers, or will appoint agencies as enrollers, who
will interface with people seeking UID numbers. The Authority will also partner with service
providers for authentication.

f)The UIDAI will emphasize a flexible model for Registrars
g)Enrolment will not be mandated
h)The UIDAI will issue a number, not a card
i)The number will not contain intelligence
j)The Authority will only collect basic information on the resident:
The UIDAI may seek the
following demographic and biometric information in order to issue a UID number:
 Name
 Date of birth
 Place of birth
 Gender
 Father’s name1
 Father’s UID number (optional for adult residents)
 Mother’s name
 Mother’s UID number (optional for adult residents)
 Address (Permanent and Present)
 Expiry date
 Photograph
 Finger prints

k)Process to ensure no duplicates:
The incentives in the UID system are aligned towards a self-cleaning mechanism. The existing
patchwork of multiple databases in India gives individuals the incentive to provide different
personal information to different agencies. Since de-duplication in the UID system ensures
that residents have only one chance to be in the database, individuals will provide accurate
data. This incentive will become especially powerful as benefits and entitlements are linked
to the UID.

l)Online authentication
m)The UIDAI will not share resident data:
n)Technology will undergird the UIDAI system:
Technology systems will have a major role
across the UIDAI infrastructure. The UID database will be stored on a central server.
Enrolment of the resident will be computerized, and information exchange between
Registrars and the CIDR will be over a network. Authentication of the resident will be online.
The Authority will also put systems in place for the security and safety of information.



animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 02 Dec 2009 22:06

Part 2: Benifits

For residents:
The UID will become the single source of identity verification. Once residents
enrol, they can use the number multiple times – they would be spared the hassle of
repeatedly providing supporting identity documents each time they wish to access services
such as obtaining a bank account, passport, driving license, and so on.

By providing a clear proof of identity, the UID will also facilitate entry for poor and
underprivileged residents into the formal banking system, and the opportunity to avail
services provided by the government and the private sector. The UID will also give migrants
mobility of identity.


For Registrars and enrollers:
The UIDAI will only enrol residents after de-duplicating records.
This will help Registrars clean out duplicates from their databases, enabling significant
efficiencies and cost savings. For Registrars focused on cost, the UIDAI’s verification processes
will ensure lower KYR costs. For Registrars focused on social goals, a reliable identification
number will enable them to broaden their reach into groups that till now, have been difficult
to authenticate. The strong authentication that the UID number offers will improve services,
leading to better resident satisfaction.

For Governments:
Eliminating duplication under various schemes is expected to save the
government exchequer upwards of Rs. 20,000 crores a year
. It will also provide governments
with accurate data on residents, enable direct benefit programs, and allow government
departments to coordinate investments and share information.


Revenue model

By providing identity authentication, the UIDAI will be taking on a process that costs agencies
and service providers hundreds of crores every year. The Authority will charge a fee for its
authentication services, which will offset its long-term costs. Registrars and service providers
will also be able to charge for the cards they issue residents with the UID number. Such
pricing will be within UIDAI guidelines.


Timelines
The UIDAI will start issuing UIDs in 12-18 months, and the Authority plans to cover 600
million people within 4 years from the start of the project. This can be accelerated if more
Registrars partner with the Authority for both enrolment and authentication.
The adoption of
UIDs is expected to gain momentum with time, as the number establishes itself as the most
accepted identity proof in the country


Conclusion
India will be the first country to implement a biometric-based unique ID system for its
residents on such a large scale. The UID will serve as a universal proof of identity, allowing
residents to prove their credentials anywhere in the country. It will give the government a
clear view of India’s population, enabling it to target and deliver services effectively, achieve
greater returns on social investments, and track money and resource flows across the
country.
The timing of this initiative is encouraging – the creation of the UIDAI coincides with growing
social investment in India, a shift in focus to direct benefits, and with the spread of IT and
mobile phones, which has made the public receptive to technology-based solutions. The
UIDAI is committed to making this project a success. An initiative of this magnitude will also
require the active participation of central, state and local governments, as well as public and
private sector agencies across the country. With their support, the project will help realize a
larger vision of inclusion and development for India.


Introduction
A crucial factor that determines an individual’s well-being in a country is whether their
identity is recognized in the eyes of the government. Weak identity limits the power of the
country’s residents when it comes to claiming basic political and economic rights. The lack of
identity is especially detrimental for the poor and the underprivileged, the people who live in
India’s “social, political and economic periphery”. Agencies in both the public and private
sector in India usually require a clear proof of identity to provide services. Since the poor
often lack such documentation, they face enormous barriers in accessing benefits and
subsidies.
For governments and individuals alike, strong identity for residents has real economic value.
While weak identity systems cause the individual to miss out on benefits and services, it also
makes it difficult for the government to account for money and resource flows across a
country. In addition, it complicates government efforts to account for residents during
emergencies and security threats.
However in India, the goal of issuing a universally used, unique identity number to each
resident poses a significant challenge. A project of this scale has not been attempted
anywhere in the world, and requires an innovative model, distinct from what we have
witnessed in identity systems so far.

The UIDAI Approach
In 2007, the Planning Commission had recommended an approach to issuing unique
identification numbers, where the enrolment into a Unique Identification (UID) database
could be speeded up by using existing resident records in the databases of the Election
Commission, PAN etc. This approach would speed up enrolment for those residents present
in one of the aforementioned databases. These databases however, may contain
inaccuracies.
The model envisioned by the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI)
takes into account the inputs of the Planning Commission, as well as learnings from the
previous approaches to identity.
The structure that the UIDAI envisions will have the reach and flexibility to enrol residents
across the country.
The UIDAI, as a statutory body, will be responsible for creating, administrating and enforcing
policy. The Authority will prescribe guidelines on the biometric technology, the various
processes around enrolment, and KYR verification. The UIDAI will also design and create the
institutional microstructure to effectively implement the policy. This will include a Central ID
Data Repository (CIDR), which will manage the central system, and a network of Registrars
who will establish resident touch points through Enrolling Agencies.

The Central ID Data Repository (CIDR)
The CIDR will be the central data repository, and will function as a Managed Service Provider.
It will implement the core services around the UID – it will store resident records, issue
unique identification numbers, and verify, authenticate and amend resident data.
The CIDR will only hold the minimum information required to identify the resident and
ensure no duplicates. This will include:

i) Unique Identity Number: The Unique ID or UID will be a numeric that is unique across all
1.2 billion residents in India.
The UID number will not contain intelligence. In older identity systems, it was customary to
load the ID number with information related to the date of birth, as well as the location of
the person. However this makes the number susceptible to fraud and theft, and migration of
the resident quickly makes location details out of date. The UID will be a random number.

ii) Identity fields: The fields associated with the UID number will be:
 Name
 Date of birth
 Place of birth
 Gender
 Father’s name
 Father’s UID number (optional for adult residents)
 Mother’s name
 Mother’s UID number (optional for adult residents)
 Address (Permanent and Present)
 Expiry date
 Photograph
 Finger prints

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 02 Dec 2009 22:16

The UniqueID agencies
The UIDAI will partner with a variety of agencies and service providers to enrol residents for
UID numbers and verify their identity.
Image
The structure of these UID agencies will be as follows:

Registrars – Registrars will be state governments or central government agencies such as the
Oil Ministry and LIC. Registrars may also be private sector participants such as banks and
insurance firms.
The UIDAI will enter into agreements with individual Registrars, and enable their on-boarding
into the UID system. The Registrars may need to make changes to their processes to be UIDready.
The UIDAI will support them in this, and in linking to the CIDR, connecting to the UID
system, and adding UID fields to their databases.
The Registrar will take on the responsibility of ensuring that clean and correct data flows into
the CIDR. Their key role in the system will be in aggregating enrolments from sub-registrars
and enrolling agencies and forwarding it to the CIDR. Each Registrar will adopt UIDAI
standards in the technology used for biometrics, as well as in collecting and verifying resident
information, and submitting to audits.
The UIDAI will also enter into agreements with some Registrars for using the CIDR solely for
authentication purposes. The service providers who will adopt the UID system for identity
authentication during service delivery will follow certain processes and standards, and may
need to re-engineer their internal processes.

Sub-Registrars – These will be the departments/entities that report to a specific Registrar.
For instance, the line departments of the state government such as the RDPR (Rural
Development and Panchayati Raj) department would be sub-registrars to the state
government Registrar.
Enrolling Agencies – Enrolling agencies will directly interact with and enrol residents into the
CIDR. For example, the hospital where a baby is born would be the ‘enrolling agency’ for the
baby’s UID, and would report to the municipality sub-registrar.

Outreach Groups – The UIDAI will also partner with civil society groups and community
networks which will promote the UID number and provide information on enrolment for hard
to reach populations such as rural women, tribals and others.



A critical aspect of the UID enrolment process is that enrolment will not be through a
mandate, but will be demand driven. The momentum for the UID will come from residents
enrolling in order to access the benefits and services associated with it.
The basic advantage of the UID that can drive this demand, which is to be communicated
while promoting enrolment, is that the UID will be one number, which can be used to prove
identity for life. Once the resident gets the unique ID, it may be accepted as identity proof
across service providers.

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 02 Dec 2009 22:22

The enrolment process
The enrolment process for the UID number will begin with a resident submitting his/her
information to the enrolling agency with supporting documents. This information will be
verified according to established Know Your Resident (KYR) standards. To make sure the poor
are not excluded, the UIDAI will also prescribe guidelines for applicants without documents.
Once the enroller verifies the resident’s information, it will submit the application request –
either singly or in batches – through the Registrar to the CIDR. The CIDR will then run a deduplication
check, comparing the resident’s biometric and demographic information to the
records in the database to ensure that the resident is not already enrolled.
Owing to the large number of records in the database, the de-duplication may take place in
two stages. De-duplication may first be carried out within a specific boundary of the data,
such as within the local area (district/state) the resident lives in. If this check succeeds, a UID
number is assigned to the resident, and the new record is added to the database. The
localized check will also speed up the de-duplication process, which would allow Registrars to
issue their cards with less turnaround time.
The system will however, after issuing the UID, continue to run a 1:N de-duplication check of
the resident’s demographic/biometric details against the entire database. If the resident
already holds a UID number but has now received a second one, the older record will be
discovered during this full search. In this case, the second UID number will be cancelled, and
a dispute resolution mechanism will determine whether the duplication is because of fraud or
technical error. If it is revealed to be fraud, the Authority may consider penal action.
Since the de-duplication also compares biometric records, it would catch individuals enrolling
with a different set of demographic details. The fact that the UID system is both deduplicated
and universal will discourage residents from giving incorrect data at the time of
enrolment.
Image

Issuing the UID number
Once the UID number is assigned, the Authority will forward the resident a letter which
contains his/her registered demographic and biometric details. This letter will also have a
tearaway portion which has the UID number, name, photograph and a 2D barcode of the
finger print minutiae digest. If there are any mistakes in the demographic details, the resident
can contact the relevant Registrar/enrolling agency within 15 days.
If the Registrar issues a card to the resident, the UIDAI will recommend that the card contain
the UID number, name and photograph. They will be free to add any more information
related to their services (such as Customer ID by bank). They will also be free to print/ store
the biometric collected from the applicant on the issued card. If more registrars store such
biometric information in a single card format, the cards will become interoperable for offline
verification. But the UIDAI will not insist on, audit or enforce this.
All data entry that the enrolling agencies take up on behalf of the Registrars will be done in
English. It can then be converted into the local language using standard transliteration
software, and verified for accuracy by the Registrar. The letter the UIDAI sends the resident
will consequently contain all demographic details in English as well as the local language of
the state in which the resident resides. In this regard, the UIDAI will follow the precedent set
by the Election Commission of India.

UID enrolment strategy in rural and urban India
The approach of the UIDAI to enrolment will be a pro-rural/pro-poor one. The Registrars
targeted for rural India – the NREGA, RSBY and PDS – will be government agencies with large
rural networks and significant bases among the poor. As a result, the Authority expects initial
enrolment to be fairly rapid in both large and small rural areas.

The enrolment strategy for urban India will include organizations which dominate services for
urban residents, such as LIC and Passports. The table below summarizes the Registrars who
are likely to contribute significantly to enrolment in the urban and rural areas.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 04 Dec 2009 20:47

:evil: Sometimes scamming can get so serious in India!

Do you understand what Mr. Nandan is doing? He is creating a number 'randomly' without intelligence. Let me ask a few questions:

1) Why in the whole blardy world, India is the only country issuing a number without a card? All countries with some sort of identifying system has a card. Why the card + number? Why not number only? :)

Let me explain. To create a database of numbers randomly attached with biometrics is not advanced technologies, it is just a damn DATABASE for god's sake. The hard part is enforcing people to subscribe to this system, printing, distributing and protecting the card which is basically a document. Remember when you buy things, people give you a receipt? The same is true with the card, the government acknowledges you are who you are in their database and you get a document embedded in the card as a receipt or proof. This is in case some one tries to corrupt the database, the card serves as a second line of defense for identity.

Now the interesting part comes in, so let's say I am A and I tell someone B's number, how is he going to verify me? Is he going to all the trouble to go online or go to the nearest UID office to check? Of course, he is going to look at my card and make sure that picture is me with the right number. It is simple logics man. We are talking about India here where 50% is not literate!

So why isn't Nandan:

1) Issuing a card
2) Making it compulsory and enforcing it

It is because that is the HARDEST THINGS TO DO! The MNIC pilot project was hampered by this and that's why we couldn't move on. Anybody can create a database with random 'unintelligent' numbers, but Nandan is getting paid 6 - 30bil$ for this! :evil:

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 05 Dec 2009 06:19

nukavarapu wrote:A no. can be considered equivalent to a serial no. of a product. Randomizing it will make it tough for someone to predict the no. For eg. If a the number utilizes some sort of logic like DOB, wouldn't it be easier to do identity theft? I can well pretty much guess the UID of all my friends. The entire no. may not be the DOB, but if DOB is part of it, the rest of the variable is predictable.

Please note, before you think, I do agree that even a completely random no. wud also use some mathematical equation for generation, but wud it be easier to crack? If you are using a 256 bit cipher to generate a complete random key, even the best supercomputers in the world have to sweat out, to break the algorithm :mrgreen:




I do get the whole thing, I think you and many Indians worshipping Super Nandan is not seeing the big picture here. He is like saying: ooo, I am making a car, but no it has no doors, windows and engine, hell it won't even be physically there. I will give you a unique plate number. :rotfl:

This systems:

1) No card
2) Not compulsory
3) Does not verify citizenship (To India, citizenship is your identity as an Indian, what's the point in telling a Bangla, he is a unique Bangla)
4) No encryption algorithm

And he is going around media promoting it, Indians are thinking, well he is the founder of Infosys, how can he be wrong? He is the messiah that can do anything!

For the random number, yes of course you don't just create a number randomly, else I could just use a random generator, there must be some sort of encryption algorithm in it, but he had already said it has no 'intelligence' and it is randomly generated! Even the serial number on any product tells you something about the product, you get it? In a proper system, only a part of the number is randomly generated using some mathematical algortihm to avoid duplicate numbers. Read below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number

My friend, you don't even need a encryption if you are just gonna randomly generate numbers. No supercomputer can break anything because there is nothing to break. You are just creating random numbers with no meaning. The point is NOBODY just randomly create a number for identity in this whole wide blardy world except India. If it was so easy, everyone would have just randomly create a number. It is not hard, just randomly generate 15 numbers and at the end of it make sure there is no duplication else regenerate. In theory you can generate till infinity. India is very unique indeed!

And the biggest question still remains, why there is no compulsory enforcement and why there is no card!! I can tell you this, he don't even have to create an algorithm, card, enforcement, he is creating a randomly generated number paste it with your fingerprint and saving it in a database. An under graduate can do it for his college project, but he is doing it free.

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 05 Dec 2009 09:29

Now the interesting part comes in, so let's say I am A and I tell someone B's number, how is he going to verify me? Is he going to all the trouble to go online or go to the nearest UID office to check? Of course, he is going to look at my card and make sure that picture is me with the right number. It is simple logics man. We are talking about India here where 50% is not literate!

Lets consider A is working in NREGA. A gives his identity parameters to the babu, babu scans it and sends a query with A's ID number and Identity parameter. IF A is smart, the best he could do is give B's Identity and ID number. But doesn't it require B's agreement to use his fingerprint. The best system can do is just answer yes or no. In case of a conflict.. the queried person will be put in watchlist.

Consider an operation of bank.. where additional security measures will be used. Say finger prints to minimum and on modest scale.. lets assume an iris scan( less likely in short time).
Such credential are difficult to obtained from any to-be-victim. The system is also better than a ID card project as your identity doesn't depend on a card, which can be forged. but on a system which just nods yeah or nay!

beside< every UID will be alloted after de-duplication process.


1.) When person newly avails for a card, how can you ascertain that he is a citizen? Especially when that person is a 60 year + senior citizen?

UID as of now can't be used as a proff of citizenship. However, in case required.. there are two way to verify the same
1)while registration process, claim maid by applicant verified.
2) The profile of a user is linked with his parents and siblings. Hence if you are a native citizen, your parents have to be citizen as well.. and grandparents to.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 05 Dec 2009 10:15

Let me try answering your question. I am fine with a virtual number plate as long as I can use a system which can identify the car and who it belongs to and when was the list time it had an accident, serves my purpose !!!!

In fact I am pretty much convinced that the no. itself doesnot need any intelligence, its just an identification mechanism. Its just like your name with your surname, does it make any difference if you as a person justify the meaning of your name or not? Well my name is Shwet and I was born pitch black, like the way we say in Mumbai "Color gaya to paisa waapis" :rotfl:


If your logic is correct, then all products with a barcode will just have a randomly generated number. I have already explained to you why there is a need for a card and that card must be embedded with a encrypted document. If that is the case, everybody will not need a card when they go to ATMs, they just need a unique number. you don't need your birth cert, you just need a unique number. The purpose of the card/doc/cert acts like a receipt, please understand this. If the government only owns the database, they can manipulate it and the person cannot challenge anything. That's the point, having a car plate will just say your are a car plate owner, not a car owner. The car is the identification system, it comes in a package, it includes the card, the enforcement, the encryption, the unique number and the relevant laws.





Doesnt matter what my name means, as long as it is my name and wud even wont care if it doesnot have any meaning. As long as ppl who know me can identify me by my name and can reference me with my family, where I live, blah blah blah !!!

Simply because I justify the UID and co-coincidently Nandan is leading it, that doesnot make me think he is a messiah, so please stop shoving that thought of yours into my throat, coz neither I am gulping it nor wud my stomach be happy :mrgreen:

In a country, where tooo much of democracy is the biggest problem and any politician can get away with petty policies and vote-bank policies, is it easy to make such system compulsary???


No idea if you liked Nandan, I was making a general comment. If it is not compulsory, then it loses it's purpose as a Indian Identity System. If only 30% of the population or middle class subscribe it, then the system will only serve as an elite platform and further cause gentrification in India, a sort of super caste with a UID. Can you answer me this question, if the purpose of a national ID is just to create a random number, why is India the only country doing this? How come every other countries ID has got some sort of structured algorithm combined with a random number? Why? Anybody would have come out with a random number......

Again, how do I tell A who I am with just my name or in this case my random number without a document. You tink all Indians can access Internet and walk 100km to the nearest UID kiosk?


And you missed one point here, the UID project clearly states that UID is not compulsory but, the services which will depend on UID will make the service availers, compulsary to have a UID. Let me give an example:

1.) For many government requirements, u need a PAN card. Going further government will make PAN card necessary for every financial dealing. So PAN card would be made compulsary for everyone. Already the penetration of PAN card is close to 64%.

Problem: People are using duplicate PAN Cards.

Now government has made this service compulsary, and ppl are successfully duplicating them. Here comes UID. Going futher the PAN card users (both existing and new) would have to provide or register for UID to apply for a new PAN card or keep the present one active. And thats the precise reason why UID is just a no. and no card, as the existing cards are gonna use the UID no.

So UID is still not compulsary, but if you dont have an UID, you can't avail for PAN Card, Passport and even Rationing service. Do you get the point now?


I am not saying we should not have a UID system, I am saying we are paying 6bil - 30 bil just for a random number. Do you get it? We should be getting a car, not a car plate for 6-30 bil$!!! You are assuming the population will subsrcibe to this system even without enforcement? What about people in the unorganized sector that don't pay tax, don't have a passport and maybe not even a bank account? That is like 50% of the population!! Imagine this, people who are illiterate do not have access to this UID system and are not interested because it is not compulsory. So when a services that need this system is unveiled, they will just try not to use the government service altogether, alienating and even expanding the social caste. That's why you must make it compulsory and force everybody to use this card + number as an identity system.



If you make it equivalent to citizenship, there are 2 issues:

1.) When person newly avails for a card, how can you ascertain that he is a citizen? Especially when that person is a 60 year + senior citizen?
2.) If you are not a citizen, and if you can't have UID, how would u do any kind of business transaction in india?


In that case, how do you know a person with the UID is who he is? It's the same concept. I told you, I am not against an Identity System, I am against a 6-30 bil$ SCAM. That's why there is a birth cert and national registrar. So do you mean, people in London cannot do business because he don't have a UID? Logics my friend, logics! A UID is for an INDIAN IDENTIFICATION SYSTEM not a global identity system. So everyone going into Singapore will have to use their local ID card to do business? Does it make sense?


But apart from all this, there is a unique feature of UID which makes it different from the other similar systems in the world. The feature of cross-relationing. The module involves a software algorithm which is capable of relationizing. For example, the UID of me will have a pointer towards the UID of my parents, my spouse, my children, my siblings. Its like a binomial tree !!! So as per the software module goes, UID is not just a unique entery, its part of a logical tree, with many connections and inter-connections. So the sytem dosent like at your UID, it actually looks at your entire family !!!


Wow, super duper technology. Can you explain to me how randomly generated, unrelated numbers can create a cross-relationing system? Now do you know why all countries ID system do not just use random numbers? Even for product barcodes, it is not random. It is for sorting and control purposes.


Now after all this, why we need an encryption algorithm, to hide what? The no. doesnt have any significance. It gains significance when the no. is queried in the Central UID database, till then its just any other no.


If random numbers, there is no need for encryption as I had repeated before, but for intelligent numbers that mean something, you need to encrypt it. There must a meaning to the numbers for governments to exercise control. The physical encryption is in the card itself, so information in the card cannot be duplicated. Again the question pops out, why the heck 6-30bil$ for a RANDOM number with no encryption wahtsoever?



Now, lets talk about costs !!!

Let me be clear, I am not justifying the cost which GOI has allocated for the UID project, but I am just trying to look it through my reasoning.

1.) How much money would require for a simple Thumb impressioning system? We are looking at huge levels coz, every GOV office in State, District and Taluka level will be having, atleast 10 of those in each office.

2.) The software needs a huge processing power when the software will query for your Bio-metric signature against a databse of 1 billion bio-metric signatures of the population. I can't even imagine the processing power it will require !!!

3.) This system just can't fail, or we are sitting on a disaster. Out of the last 15 years of building data centers across the world, I have realised that creating a system which is highly available and highly redundant requires lot of resources !!!

4.) The most important and the most neglected !!! How all these GOV offices will communicate with the UID database ??? Its not gonna be like save all the entires in a CD and then parcel it :rotfl:

So you need a data network connecting all these offices to UID. I can bet the total money required to develop and manage this system is gonna be lot higher than what the government projected.

If possible take sometime to read Data Center sustainability documents and you will find how CIOs get nightmares from the power and circuit bills.


China spent around 6 bil$ on their National ID and it took them 5 years to complete. The encryption system is self-developed, the number is unique with a so called intelligent algorithm, the card is self made, it's RFID enabled, the chip is self made, even the writing machine and scanning machine can only be made by Chinese companies for secutiry reasons. Not a single foreign company is allowed. As of 2009, 1 billion people have this card. :evil:

Shockingly, you can even check the identiy ONLINE for FREE.
Last edited by Prasanth on 05 Dec 2009 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 05 Dec 2009 10:37

Lets consider A is working in NREGA. A gives his identity parameters to the babu, babu scans it and sends a query with A's ID number and Identity parameter. IF A is smart, the best he could do is give B's Identity and ID number. But doesn't it require B's agreement to use his fingerprint. The best system can do is just answer yes or no. In case of a conflict.. the queried person will be put in watchlist.


What is the difference in having a card with a number and having a number alone? I can go to NREGA and let him scan my card and with my unique number and my fingerprint. I have triple identity proof. The concern now is the normal populace, A wants to buy alcohol and he is below 18, how does B the shopkeeper know who he is? Or if A is Bangla and he has got a UID, how he got it? UID is not proof of citizenship, it's just telling you, you are Ahmad and you have this fingerprint or Iris with a unique number.

Consider an operation of bank.. where additional security measures will be used. Say finger prints to minimum and on modest scale.. lets assume an iris scan( less likely in short time).
Such credential are difficult to obtained from any to-be-victim. The system is also better than a ID card project as your identity doesn't depend on a card, which can be forged. but on a system which just nods yeah or nay!

beside< every UID will be alloted after de-duplication process.


What if I have a card, a number and my finger. If my finger doesn't match the card, and the card doesn't match the system. You are caught! You again have triple proof!



1.) When person newly avails for a card, how can you ascertain that he is a citizen? Especially when that person is a 60 year + senior citizen?
UID as of now can't be used as a proff of citizenship. However, in case required.. there are two way to verify the same
1)while registration process, claim maid by applicant verified.
2) The profile of a user is linked with his parents and siblings. Hence if you are a native citizen, your parents have to be citizen as well.. and grandparents to.


I don't understand, if the UID is not a proof of citizen then information about your citizenship shouldn't be on the system right?

animesharma
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 20:56

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby animesharma » 06 Dec 2009 02:47

3.) My Father's UID (If present)
4.) My Mother's UID (If present)


just a curious query. If a UID holder is dead, as in the case above, will his UID be considered null and void. If not, then isn't there probablility of forgery by using dead person as relatives.
As of now.. when they start rolling out UID, any intellectual from pakistan can claim UID, giving reference (paper document) of some dead relatives in india.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 06 Dec 2009 06:54

Prasanth, I think you are not the types who will first read my complete post and then go about arguing or putting your view. Whatever questions you asked, I have answered all questions of yours, if you have patience enough to read my entire post before replying!

First of all, why you are comparing this with a barcode? You shud have compared it with SSN rather than barcode. Barcode is just an identification method. In case of UID the identification method is bio-metrics.


I actually read your arguments, but I think you got me wrong here. I am not against any ID system. I am against a scam by Super Nandan charging us almost 30bil$ for a number that has got no intelligence. For 30bil$, you are suppose to get more than that. Indians are always lowering standards to make themselves feel good. If you can't get Olympics, you get Commonwealth, it's good enuff, it is like that onlee! I am using barcode as an example because it is already the simplest form of identification just like what UID claim to be. Ok, let's compare SSN, the same goes for SSN, the numbers are not random, they have meaning. I have a feeling he is using random numbers because he has no time, no cohesion between government departments to consolidate information, GOI is not in full control of the country and lack of information on unorganized citizens. All ID cards on earth use biometrics for your information, none just issue a NUMBER for 30bil$. Your picture is already a biometric information, there are software to analyze and differentiate faces.




Ok, so now you want me to carry my PAN card, Voter Card, Ration Card, Drivers License and the UID card? What if all the cards have my UID no. on them?

Why should my car has so much of things in it, when I am gonna use it only for driving?

The purpose of UID is not for verifying indian citizenship, it is to ensure that the correct people are getting the services without exploitation. That is what makes it different from the rest of the projects in the world.


No, I want you to carry one card for all my friend. An ID card with a unique number and encrypted with a document, you keep as evidence for Citizenship and protected rights. All services will just check if your ID number is for that service and they will allow you if your ID is there. Remember MNIC? It was suppose to do just that. Now Nandan figured it would be almost impossible for him to do that, so he lowered down the standards and create a 'unique' Indian solution then broadcast to the whole world. You get it? And yet charging us 30BIL$. What is the diff with the rest of the world? We are not living in a coconut shell here, our system must be comparable or better than other systems. We cannot forever lower standards to suit babu palette....

You can't drive with a number plate my friend. You need a car. A package of identity delivery system.

Again, I know UID is not suppose to verify citizenship, I am asking why it is not verifying citizenship when I am paying 30bil$ of my taxpayer's $? So, a Bangla, a Paki can just claim to be Indian, given a UID and get our services? He can just nominate someone as his Amma and Appa, pay him some money, then he is Indian? If what you say is true, that it cannot verify citizenship, wouldn't it be possible for anybody staying in India to just get hold of freebies?


You are again wrong here! How did you come to the 30% equation? If UID is made compulsary requirement for Rationing card, it will have 99% penetration. Do you know of any person without a rationing card? In my previous post, I just gave an example of PAN card, to make u understand how the process will work. The UID is not limited to PAN card and it will also be made manditory for the Rationing card.


I am just giving an example. You sure there is 99% penetration, even in software circles, we don't dare to be 99% sure. I know whatever UID is suppose to do is verify these systems, but you are still stuck with multiple cards right? Why not just create an ID card for all? Why not make it compulsory? Is it because the government cannot exercise control and enforce laws? They are taking the short cut to just say it's voluntary? On the whole wide world, national ID is compulsory and made into a law, Nandan is taking short cuts to adapt it to babu standards, which means lower standard. If you cannot make a car, you create a plate number. It's the same, people will still tink it's a car because it's a car plate.

One example, Ahmad is verified as Ahmad with the relevant information, and the biometrics, but Ahmad has got a fake ration card. The clerk looks at Ahmad and say yes the info on the UID system matches Ahmad's ration card. So I give him food. I don't think clerks have access to a unified database for ration card for the whole India.


Why India is only country doing that? So you mean that we as a country can't come up with an innovative idea? Or we are still suffering with the thought that what west and china does is correct and no matter what we do is gonna be a disaster? Well time for you to wake up !!!


I know India is big and I didn't say we cannot come up with an innovative idea. It is just tht this is not innovative nor an idea, it's a SCAM. Why? You get charged 30bil$ for a random number created out of thin air! Please separate India from Nandan scam, just because Nandan is Indian, it doesn't mean I must support him. And just because I am against him, I am against Mother India?


You again got it wrong, please read the UID project documentation again. UID will not setup kiosks everywhere in the country. That would be taken care by the other Government offices, like Income Tax, Rationing Office, etc. etc. Do you know that in every district, there is a dedicated office for Income Tax etc. etc. Even banks would have that system in place. The UID guys are not gonna setup a new office everywhere. The existing government offices who are gonna enforce the UID system for their services, will have the infrastructure for UID application and/or authentication.


Okay, assuming you are correct taht every department will have it. You mean every village will have an authentication system? I am again repeating myself here, I am talking about your normal dhoti wearing uncle here. How the heck he knows you are 18 and stays in Jaipur and not a Paki? Wouldn't having a card + unique number serve this purpose? You can show a card that is counterfeit proof for ordinary Indians and when in government offices, you can verify it biometrically, instead of having a number alone. Get it? More for the money.........not 30bil$ for a random number.


Let me repeat here, PAN card is not the only system which is gonna use UID. Rationing system will have it as well. Do you know of any person working in un-organized sector without a Rationing card?

I answered in my post above.

You again got my points wrong. I am not talking about a person who lives in London. How about a non-indian national has come to india for limited time on a business trip? What would he do? Before questioning my logic, please try to understand what I am trying to say or is that you are just goona shove your thoughts on everyone and then call everyone else ignorant?

I am telling you in London, you don't need a British UID and a foreign national can still come for a limited business trip. I am telling you in Singapore, you don't need a Singaporean UID to do business. You understand? How did they manage to do it? You are not a global identification system where you tag everyone that comes into India, you are an Indian UID, you tag Indians. Comprehendo?


If you are gonna mock me with these petty terms, then this would be the last time I would reply to you. I never said, that the no. itself will provide cross-relationing system. Let me explain:

My Application for a new UID will have:

1.) My Name
2.) My DOB
3.) My Father's UID (If present)
4.) My Mother's UID (If present)
5.) Married Yes/No
6.) If Married, UID of Spouse:

If my father's UID is not available, then when the next time I put in an application for my father, that information will be populated again. If its a senior citizen, then he will be the Apex of his family tree of UIDs. Its not super-duper technology, simple Maths.

Well, I accept I am wrong here. But you told me it is the unique system in the world whereby only India has cross relationing technology, so I assumed it was something high tech. FYI, almost all ID system has got your father and Mother's ID and to relationize whether you are a son or relative, you just create a search function that can find these IDs in other IDs. So it's not so unique and ground breaking afterall? 8)

This is waht you said >
But apart from all this, there is a unique feature of UID which makes it different from the other similar systems in the world. The feature of cross-relationing. The module involves a software algorithm which is capable of relationizing. For example, the UID of me will have a pointer towards the UID of my parents, my spouse, my children, my siblings. Its like a binomial tree !!! So as per the software module goes, UID is not just a unique entery, its part of a logical tree, with many connections and inter-connections. So the sytem dosent like at your UID, it actually looks at your entire family !!!



I have already told you that my estimates say that in the end, to setup this system its probably gonna cost more than that! But thats my view and my view alone, you can keep yours.

More? :eek: You have to work for Nandan man, you are gonna get heavy commissions.


Yeah and China also claims that they are working on 5 gen aircraft with plasma stealth and hypersonic scramjet engine, for half of the cost what west did. You can believe that if you want. Being a communist country and the way China deals with its people, then 1 billion people in 5 years is a failure. It shud had been 100% and you yourself answered your question. Is India communist? Does the government has same kind of control on our people, the way china has on its people? WB government allowed Tata to build Nano plant in singur, and we all know the rest of the story. That is the reality of india my friend, so dont compare us with China.


Well, you can claim they are communist and use it to shield our own incompetence, or you can assume they are doing better things and try to do more advanced things. Are you sure they don't have plasma tech and scramjet? I dunno but let's not get into it. What I know that until now, they have shown what they claim to do, unlike us that brag and boratcast before even the thing is completed. Well, if making 1 bil Chinese ID with one of the most high tech card on earth is a failure , then I rest my case, saar. That's the point we don't have control over the coountry and by making a better UID system, it is suppose to increase our control. Instead we are lowering standards.....



The SSN, the Chinese ID is for a different purpose compared to the UID of india. It will be very wrong to compare them. UID is not meant to identify its citizens and control/regulate them. That might be the future goal though. Right now its to make sure that people get the services they deserve without exploitation and middle men. Its more like a system which brings authenticity in government services, which is know for corruption and laid back attitude. Thats what makes it different from the rest of the world. Initially, I am pretty much sure that it won't be of much help to identify illegal immigrants. But that would change as the project progresses.


Btw, have you by any chance been to Singapore or China? I am not trying to be cocky here, but after you've been to those two places, you will see things differently and understand how far we lag behind others. I have seen Chinese ID in action in a bank, they just use RFID and wallah all info is on the computer to be verified and when I go to China for business trips, I don't need their ID system and yet I can still do business with my passport. 8)

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 06 Dec 2009 09:56

Well we need to understand one thing first, 30 billion $ is not for the number, its for the entire system that is going to be setup to support the UID system. You just can't right it off as sayin that we are paying 30 Billion dollars for a random no. That would be very immature I say!!!

I still don't understand your facination with cards !!! Who knows maybe the end result of the UID project would be to have a common UID card for everything and you might be right. But that is not the strategy they are beginning this project with.


Well, 30 bil$ for a random number generator + fingerprint database is not expensive? Bro, I am in software and just by looking at this system layout I know it is nothing groundbreaking and should not cost this much. If it is gonna cost this much, you must give me encryption and a RFID/smart card. What system? This is just a database with customized features.
For collecting biometrics, he is gonna use exiting government infrastructure to collect, you are not building a few thousand new offices here. One scanner,one computer, one worker * 1000, you also won't need 30bil$.

Again, I had explained why you need a card. Why do you use a ATM card? It's the same logic. Well there better be a card at the end of it


How can you claim that Mr. Nandan is lowering down the quality??? I am not saying that he has the best solution in hand, but I won't say either that he is just bragging about it. Maybe we are planning for a world class sytem which no-one has thought of yet. Well I am not day dreaming, but after having long discussions with my chai wallas, thats what atleast I believe. I may be wrong or right, only time will tell, because we both are speculating.


How can you claim he is not lowering down the quality when there is not even a card and you can't verify whether you are Indian? Dude, this is an INDIAN IDENTITY NUMBER!! What do you mean by identity? It's to check whther you are an Indian or a Paki or a Bangla. Do you know when did the whole ID initiative started? It was in 2004 after the Chinis initiated theirs. In 2007, we had MNIC pilot project and I was damn proud that we are finally gonna make one. In 2009, MNIC was cancelled to be watered down as a 'unique number'. Maybe, could, shall, will, can is future tense. What I see now is a watered down proposal due to government incompetence charging us 30bil$USD. No one has thought of yet? I have seen alot of Indian creative thinking that got no where. Remember Simputer? Hell, it was just a made-in-China mini com sold for $100 to poor Indians to revolutionize and digitize India. You can get it in China for 50$ a pop.....


There is a 99% of penetration of Rationing card in un-organized sector. There is a 50-60% penetration of PAN card in organized sector. 33% people in India have driving license (2 wheelers or 4 wheelers). I do my further calculations, it is from 5% to 1% of the total population who do not have any kind of government service, but they still might have voter card.

You are assuming my friend. Can it be made universal when it is not compulsory? Why if it can be made universal you don't make it compulsory? Why? Is it because you cannot make it universal and assume, guess, hope and push that portion of responsibility to other government services? When it is not fully adopted, you blame the other agencies? Mr. Nandan is pretty shrewd. By making his responsibilities less, he has got less blame. I just make the numbers, duh! :rotfl:

What you are saying is right, and I agreed to that in your previous post. It may not help verifying the citinzenship of any Individual to begin with. But it might happen as we go along with the system. There might be a misuse. But it will highly effect the percentage of people misusing it.

First, let us discuss the part that how Ahmed got a UID to begin with. The only way would be if he can forge all the required documents for the UID. Then comes the question of which documents would be accepted as legitamate. I dont have any concrete proof on this but discussions with my sources have been encouraging. I donot wish to speculate at this time, but as we dont know yet, I will go by your view that it might be misused.


Now you get it, verification of citizenship is the core of every single damn ID system on earth!!! By taking out this responsibility, Mr. Nandan is creating a shield for himself. This is because verifying citizenship before creating an ID system is the most important step. If you create an ID system without a solid foundation, sooner or later it will be corrupted. Your first generation ID is very very important and will affect next generation IDs. You can track citizens from the previous generation ID.

I dont see anything wrong in dhoti-clad doing the biometrics for UID. Let me clarify, the dhoti-clad government officer is not the one who is gonna check the authenticity. He will just collect all the documents and the information will be passed on to UID system for creating the UID for that person. The system then follows authentication procedure to check the validity of the claims and documents. This is done only during UID generation. Once UID is generated, it will only give respense as Yes/No against an authentication query. As of now, there is not enough clarity of how exactly it would be done, but I will wait till some specs come out.


:rotfl: Wow, every mom and pop store is going to have a biometric scanner now? Right. I already told you I know how the process works, you don't have to keep on repeating the same thing. You are not answering the question whether the system can be authenticated by a normal civilian in a village outside of a government office? I am saying a dhoti-clad uncle in a store or a landlord or a village panchayat not a government officer. Even your normal policeman, how is he gonna check everyhting, you reckon they will have wireless connection to a database in a village?


Go to America, and you can't do anything without SSN. Different system functions differently, I still don't understand why we are even comparing.

You are the one that called me to compared to the SSN. 8)

The reason why I called it unique, is not related to technology. Its related to the strategy. No ID system anywhere in the world creates co-relation between you and your family members. You can search for UID for all the members of the family. If you know their individual UID. What if you just know UID of a person and you wanna find his family background? You have to go investigate physically and then find out that he has, parents and 5 siblings!!! The correlation saves that and gives you a macro view. If you look in purely security point of view, I personally think that lot of things can become clear by looking at those co-relations.

You sure no system anywhere? Have you been to every single system and test it? Dude, I reckon you are not a software person, in a database, if there are corresponding information, you can easily create a matching program. It is really that easy, 101 of databse creation, 'RELATIONSHIPS'. Take a course in SQL, then learn the query technique. Better yet, create a button icon that automatically queries. You guys have no idea how simple this is. No wonder Google, Yahoo, Unisys, Microsoft and whatever not is jumping teh bandwagon to come in to offer unique 'solutions' for 30bil$ a pop. Nandan can retire a happy man....

I asked you to refrain from making petty comments!!! I told clearly in my previous post, that it is my view and you can have yours. You have no idea about me and what do I do for living. I never forced you to share my view.

My bad. Sorry.

I am not shielding anyone here, but is globally accepted truth that in a communist country its easier to regulate/control people. Its not the same when it comes to democracy. Visit the China threads in BRF and you will come to know what exactly they claim and how much is truth to it. I am not saying that they have nothing in their hands, I would say that they have something but not that big what they claim. I would still have my doubts on the so-called hi-tech chinese card. But again, that is purely my doubt. If you think it is hi-tech, its your view.

Well, lets not get into China. I am a frequent debater in China related forums. You will get to know me soon enough. How can you verify that they are lying? I was in Beijing during the Olympics, I was in Shnghai, in Shenzhen and yes in Hangzhou. My company sources stuff there, I did software there before and met the people, ate their food, stayed in their country for almost 2 years. I have been to Singapore, HK and US. I have seen how their systems work!! Have you been to the Three Gorges Dam, travelled on the new Tibetan Railway, sat in their bullet train and Maglev train? All lies? When does lies become reality? If that was a lie, i don't mind India living that lie, because it feels damn good. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Prasanth on 07 Dec 2009 08:43, edited 1 time in total.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4843
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Neshant » 07 Dec 2009 03:50

Well, 30 bil$ for a random number generator + fingerprint database is not expensive


Generally in the west, whenever a government project to build even the most simple database is launched, a billion dollar figure is quoted.

I'm afraid this will also turn out to be another billion dollar boondoggle project.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 07 Dec 2009 12:47

I don't think so that you need a card for everything. Well, I am not comparing with SSN, but bcoz the discussion has gone this far, I am just referencing it. There is no SSN card and everything relies on SSN in US of A. Its just a no. and nothing else. It doesn't even verify your citizenship !!! So its really bad, ain't it?


Saar,

There is a SSN card and the number is not random. It does show you citizenship in the database, please go check it out.
Btw, because this SSN card is first gen, as in plastic cards with no 'intelligence' whatsoever, they are planning to change it to a National 'Intelligent' ID card soon.....I think stuck in the Senate. Check the link and read!!
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10002.html#immigration

If your immigration status changed or you became a U.S. citizen, you should tell Social Security so your records can be updated. To get your immigration status or citizenship corrected, you need to show documents that prove your new status or citizenship. Only certain documents can be accepted as proof of citizenship for new and replacement cards. These include your U.S. passport, a Certificate of Naturalization or a Certificate of Citizenship. If you are not a U.S. citizen, Social Security will ask to see your current immigration documents


Please do some basic research, no point me spoon feeding you with such basic things.




Okay so a card with a number with logic and encryption and RFID would justify 30 billion $, is that what you are saying?

Again wrong fact. The Chinese Resident Identity Card was authorized in 1985. Where did 2003 come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_I ... ard_number


Yes, I am your typical Indian hard bargainer. So, gimme the damn card, chip and encryption, Nandan! Again, please do some research and read carefully. For god's sake, this info is in wiki and the whole internet. 1985 was the first generation ID for China, remember those plastic laminated lil cards. DO SOME RESEARCH!! I am lazy feeding facts to you!! Ok, hint, the new card is called the second generation ID card.


What are you trying to say by giving a simputer example? These are simputer specs:

Tech Speak: The Simputer Spec

Hardware
- CPU 32-bit Strong Arm SA-1100 RISC CPU running at 200MHz
- 32 MB of DRAM
- 24 MB Flash for Permanent Storage (DOC)
- Display I/F 320x240 Monochrome LCD Display Panel

Interfaces
- Touch-panel Overlay on LCD Display used with a plastic stylus (Pen)
- Speaker and MIC Jacks Smartcard Connector
- RJ-11 Telephone Jack
- USB Connector

Dimensions
- Approximately 8cm x 13 cm x 2 cm
- Power Supply 3 AAA-sized NiMh batteries

System Software
- Operating System: GNU/Linux
- Soft-Modem Algorithms V.34/V.17 Data/Fax Modem Technology
- Perl/Tk scripting environment

Application Software
- imli: an IML browser
- Tapatap: Input method
- Internet access (Browser, Email, etc.)
- Dhvani: Text-to-Speech Software
- MP3 Player

REF: http://www.simputer.org/simputer/spec/simpspec/

ARM is microprocessor product line of DEC now owned by INTEL

I didn't know INTEL was a chinese company.

So get your facts right about simputer first.


I have no idea how misinformed you are. You seriously have to get out more often, I mean, travel a lil and see other places. You see those PDA phones by HTC or whatever brand, inside, there are some Intel or whatever processors. Check the label behind that PDA, it's MADE IN CHINA. The Intel chips are made in Malaysia or Philipines, ARM processors no Idea, you do know the difference between an ARM and an ATOM right?. You go to one market in Beijing, you can get gazellions of these small mini coms for $50. Buy one SIMPUTER, open up the case, and check where the boards, assembly are made in, CHINA! :((

SSN is a ID system, but it has nothing to do with identifying citizenship or verifying. Get your facts correct first before claiming "verification of citizenship is the core of every single damn ID system on earth

Check the link above. Read and then come back. If SSN can't cehck the citizenship any Mex would have gotten welfare. Comprehendo? Btw, US, UK and Australia does not have a ID system, you can use use car license as ID too. But SSN is sorta like a de facto ID.

Yes thats what I reckon. And you might be knowing the process, but you still don't understand it.

Do you know the story of the apple and the rock. You see, there was this starving boy, he found a shiny green rock, he was so hungry, he started looking at the shiny green rock as an apple. He ate that 'apple', he didn't die, and he was still alive. But that lil shiny rock didn't solve his hunger problem, it jus gave him hope. :idea:


Bcoz, I wanted to tell you that look at a India Specific angle.

Ok, I am looking. :eek:

I am pretty sure about that. Lets talk about software -- Mr. Software. My full name is Shwet shankar, my Dad name is Ram Shankar. We both have our UIDs. Tell me mr. software genius, by only providing this information, how would you co-relate them? How would the software come to the conlusion that he is my father, without providing any other information? I didnt know software AI was that good. No wonder we are not innovating anything in the field of IT and just doing the back office work here. I just wanted to put across, that I was happy that this system will look at the entire family tree instead of look a UID as just individual entry. I liked the strategy. SSN doesnot have any

Databases taht cannot relate....hmmm....then why do you need databases for? Inputting discrete info? Seriously, get a book on SQL or whatever database programs. Fine, I will answer this one time. You can't. You can't check for relationships if you didn't create relationships in the first place. Comprehendo? When you create UID, the information on your father and mother or whatever grandpa must be inputted. Then your database can 'relate', example, I found this UID in another UID record and it's tag as father, program somthing that searched for father or mother tag, then you get it. If you want to check the whole thing, then it's more tricky, program to search for other entries with the same father or mother tag, and you get the sisters. If you want the grandpa, you search in your fathers database and look for his father, input your grandfather and search for related tags, program your database to show all the related tags. You got a family tree, it is simple, but will take time to program and tweak. I am just giving a rough idea, to get the logics right, it's slightly more complex, but not rocket science, any properly programmed database can show relationships.


Yes you have been to china and did everything, saw their infrastructure, learned their language, travelled in MAGLEV, but it seems there are certain things, which you are not aware. Check this link:

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/ama ... -in-china/

I am not talking about environment, I look it as a pure Human Rights Violation. Well how come you missed this? So stop glorifying chinese for everything. You have no idea what it feels like living under such a government


I have seen their pollution too. It's as shitty as India's. But I have also seen their bullet trains, nice apartments, parks, metros, malls, airports, nice government services, no babu asking me for rupees at the immigration, welfed population, discplined population, people that obey laws, reliable water supply, reliable power, first class hotels, low crime rates and yes, no stench in the street, I smell coal, maybe due to the coal powered power plants. :)

Human rights? I have seen more suffering in India than over there, at least not in the Han population. :rotfl: Let's not get there ok. No more China discussions, we are talking about UID here. I have no idea how to live under commieland? I lived there for 2 years, same as any Chinese, they didn't treat me special, I ain't white. I didn't vote, I got first class infrastructure and delviery system.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3251
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 07 Dec 2009 15:09

I have already explained to you why there is a need for a card and that card must be embedded with a encrypted document. If that is the case, everybody will not need a card when they go to ATMs, they just need a unique number.


I can use a credit card without the "card" part of it. As long as I know my 16 digit number and the CVV, I can use it. Physical card is not required. Same goes for "ATM" debit card. Physical card is not required.

I think you are making too much of the "card not present" issue. We still do not know what application the UID has. Is it to be used by everyone? Or only by financial and government organisations? I agree that 2 factor authentication is more secure, but if this UID is purely for govt, financial and military use (rather than widespread use), a simple number along with the biometric should suffice. These organisations should have the infrastructure to verify the biometric given the number. In any case, even if the card was issued, these organisations SHOULD verify the biometric, rather than going by the card. For widespread use, yes, a card is required. It all depends on what application this UID is used for.

No argument on your other points though.

BTW, I suggest meeting Phoon Sundari on the other forum for other China appreciation endeavors.

Prasanth
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 09:22

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prasanth » 07 Dec 2009 16:20

Tanaji wrote:
I have already explained to you why there is a need for a card and that card must be embedded with a encrypted document. If that is the case, everybody will not need a card when they go to ATMs, they just need a unique number.


I can use a credit card without the "card" part of it. As long as I know my 16 digit number and the CVV, I can use it. Physical card is not required. Same goes for "ATM" debit card. Physical card is not required.

I think you are making too much of the "card not present" issue. We still do not know what application the UID has. Is it to be used by everyone? Or only by financial and government organisations? I agree that 2 factor authentication is more secure, but if this UID is purely for govt, financial and military use (rather than widespread use), a simple number along with the biometric should suffice. These organisations should have the infrastructure to verify the biometric given the number. In any case, even if the card was issued, these organisations SHOULD verify the biometric, rather than going by the card. For widespread use, yes, a card is required. It all depends on what application this UID is used for.

No argument on your other points though.

BTW, I suggest meeting Phoon Sundari on the other forum for other China appreciation endeavors.


Agree with you. ATM is just a simple example and you can use cardless transaction online, yet they still give you a card. For UID, we need a document from the government telling you are who you are, like a sort of digital birth cert.

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3001
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby vera_k » 08 Dec 2009 03:46

I think everyone would benefit if the UID ministry clarified what services the UID would be used for.

Will it be used for -

a) Taxes
b) PDS and other government subsidies
c) Proof of citizenship for passports and electoral rolls
d) Identity verification akin to a driver's license

If we go by the history of the SSN, the UID can have a perfectly useful life for many decades as a number used for Tax, PDS (government subsidy) and private sector transactions. It does not have to imply anything about citizenship or identity verification starting out. Eventually after the system has enrolled most people, the UID can be added to passport, drivers licenses and electoral data as a secondary piece of information.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests