The Indian National ID Card Project

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Sachin » 08 Dec 2009 10:54

vera_k wrote:b) PDS and other government subsidies

If what I could glean from this thread is right, the first aim of UID is to use it as a tool to weed out "fake identities". It seems there are lots of "ghost persons" who misuse the PDS and other government subsidy benefits. This AFAIK is the primary target for UID. Adding that to electoral rolls, passports, it being made a identity proof etc. may be coming in later down the line.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby vera_k » 08 Dec 2009 22:16

Sachin wrote: Adding that to electoral rolls, passports, it being made a identity proof etc. may be coming in later down the line.


Exactly. But I don't think they have thought the timeline through. I can see them completing enrollment by 2014 and then at some time in the future (say 2034) declaring that all those who were enrolled by 2014 are considered to be Indian citizens and that the UID is valid for identification.


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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2010 01:55

Guys cool it dont want admins to visit the thread do you?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sinha » 27 Jan 2010 12:17

The Biometric committee and the Demographic data standards and Verification Procedures committee have submitted their results. I think they should be up on the UIDAI site soon.

One of the things which caught my attention was the use of "Introducer" system - see this for a challenge posted by UIDAI for general junta. Go ahead and give suggestions.

http://uidai.gov.in/documents/UID%20Cha ... roblem.pdf

From this it seems it me that UIDAI is mulling a hierarchical system of approved Introducers who will vouch for identity and address of the people who dont have documentary proof.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sinha » 27 Jan 2010 12:20

One more interesting thing on the site FAQ

• How will the UIDAI protect against functional creep?
The full board of the UIDAI may add additional data fields related to identity, and the law will contain a prescription against collecting any other information besides the information permitted, with specific prohibitions against collection of information regarding religion, race, ethnicity, case and other similar matters and the facilitation of analysis of the data for anyone or to engage in profiling or any similar activity.

why not? Doesnt the biometric world relies on race and ethnicity in many cases to "bin" or specialize the algos applicable for specific ethnnicity if known for as a fact.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby sum » 27 Jan 2010 22:06

Pan waala who has shop outside the UID office was mentioning that there are still many hurdles as even RAW and other assorted spooks are having their own list of queries regarding this project since many of them maintain multiple identities and they wanna know how this will affect their "daily work"?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranay » 17 Mar 2010 17:55

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 693530.cms

NEW DELHI: The Unique Identification Number will bring in mobility, choice, transparency and accountability at the doorsteps of the common man, UIDAI chairman Nandan Nilekani has said.

The Infosys co-founder, who now heads the government's ambitious Unique Identification Authority of India, said the UID is a scheme for the marginalized people of the country.

He said the slogan of 'bijli, sadak, pani' which talks about the need for development would now be taken over by a new catch phrase seeking bank account, mobile numbers and Unique Identification Number.

The 16-digit unique number, which is likely to be rolled out by next year, would be a fundamental part of the next decade, he said
.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Vipul » 18 Mar 2010 20:22

News report today in Hindustan Times Mumbai Edition that the Govt wants to entice the general population to get the Unique ID by offering a free Bank Acoount for each UID registration.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby ASPuar » 19 Mar 2010 15:05

Pah... more government intrusion into our lives. We need this like we need a lead balloon factory.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranay » 01 Apr 2010 17:16

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8598159.stm


India launches biometric census
Indian President Pratibha Patil fills in a census form (1 April 2010)
The full results of India's national census will be released in mid-2011

India is launching a new census in which every person aged over 15 will be photographed and fingerprinted to create a biometric national database.

The government will then use the information to issue identity cards.

Officials will spend a year classifying India's population of around 1.2 billion people according to gender, religion, occupation and education.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby PratikDas » 27 Apr 2010 03:06

Unique identity project gets a new name, logo

A government project to give each resident a unique 16-digit identity number on Monday got a new name, Aadhaar (foundation), and logo.

“UID (unique identification) is confusing. People call it different names; some DUI, some IUD,” said Unique Identification Authority of India chairperson Nandan Nilekani. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

“Aadhaar would mean foundation to access public services. It is a common word in many languages.”

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RamaY » 27 Apr 2010 19:43

Image

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RamaY » 27 Apr 2010 22:51

UIDAI aka Aadhaar ties up with I-T dept for PAN cards

The Income Tax department and the Unique Identification Authority of India have agreed "in-principle" to come together for rolling out PAN cards with unique 16 digit Aadhaar number.

New Delhi: The Unique Identification (UID) project, headed by Nandan Nilekani, has been renamed 'Aadhaar', which means foundation or support.

Official sources said both the UIDAI headed by Nandan Nilekani and the Finance Ministry has held series of meetings on the subject and are now in the process of working out the modalities. The Aadhaar, earlier known as Unique Identification Number, will be issued after collection of prints of all ten fingers, iris and face.


Makes me feel good to see this project being realized in the manner I visualized. The Aadhaar kiosks will have to come up in Banks, Land Registration Centers, Cooperative Banks (Pattadar Passbooks) etc for initial adaptation.

The background check/comparison can be done to ensure that the details are accurate and the connections (bank, phone etc) will be disconnected until the UID is sufficiently verified.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Abhijeet » 27 Apr 2010 23:46

RamaY wrote:The background check/comparison can be done to ensure that the details are accurate and the connections (bank, phone etc) will be disconnected until the UID is sufficiently verified.


Are you serious? Are they actually proposing this or is this a pet fantasy you have?

Cutting off access to vital services such as phone and bank services while the government "sufficiently verifies" you should terrify you if you actually live in India. The GoI will take ages to do this verification, do it poorly, and all that will happen is that millions of people will suddenly have to spend weeks or months clarifying to their own government why they should get back access to these vital services.

The GoI will anything poorly the first time (and several times after that). That is a given. Anything completely new like this should be carefully pilot tested before unleashing it on the general population. Under no circumstances should any draconian steps like what you have written above be implemented until the scheme has been in operation for several years at the very least.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RamaY » 28 Apr 2010 00:06

^ You got me wrong Abhijeet ji (or I was not clear enough).

My idea is that I get a new Aadhaar number when I register for it at kiosk and provide my fingers, feet, and eyes and everything else. I should get the Aadhaar ID to continue my business. Here I am presuming that a synchronous check will take hours {to cross check with the centralized data base}

A background check will happen asynchronously and if the system finds a duplicate entry (matching finger prints, IRIS etc) then the system locks both the accounts. Then I [and my duplicate] have to visit the local verification centers and provide necessary proofs. Cutting off vital services is one definite way the system can force compliance, IMO; especially if the duplicate entries are true {imagine a national security scenario where a terrorist got duplicate identity cards}.

Hope this clarifies. You can read my complete thought process here.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Sachin » 28 Apr 2010 10:08

RamaY wrote: Cutting off vital services is one definite way the system can force compliance, IMO; especially if the duplicate entries are true {imagine a national security scenario where a terrorist got duplicate identity cards}.

I do agree with your point in getting compliance, but in a country like India this system can be misused. A better idea would be to make both parties (original and duplicate) sign a bond (with some good amount) and then leave it at that. When the GoI completes its verification the original would get his money back, while the duplicate would lose the money as well as face the music :).

Overall good to see the ID scheme trundling along, even though slow but at a steady pace :D . If Nandan Nilekani and his team pulls this up well, it would also boost the people's thought that implementation of projects by proven private companies (and not some GoI Dept.) would be done much more effectively and on time.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Sachin » 29 Apr 2010 21:07

Scrap UID project, say people's organisations :lol:
Okay. So now the "people's organisations" have given the final verdict. Shall we go ahead and close the project? ;). Really dont know from which caves these "people" crawl out from, and what point is there for a daily to publish this?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Abhijeet » 30 Apr 2010 02:21

RamaY wrote:Here I am presuming that a synchronous check will take hours {to cross check with the centralized data base}

A background check will happen asynchronously and if the system finds a duplicate entry (matching finger prints, IRIS etc) then the system locks both the accounts. Then I [and my duplicate] have to visit the local verification centers and provide necessary proofs. Cutting off vital services is one definite way the system can force compliance, IMO; especially if the duplicate entries are true {imagine a national security scenario where a terrorist got duplicate identity cards}.


I don't know if you live in India. Not everything should be justified on the grounds "imagine what would happen if a terrorist gamed the system". Because of this, we already have some of the world's most cumbersome procedures for simple things - getting a SIM card, opening a bank account, even changing your address with your auto insurance company. Are there any statistics on how many terrorist attacks have actually been prevented by such laborious procedures?

It sounds harmless to say that the system will "force compliance" by cutting off vital services. It won't seem so harmless when the system mistakenly thinks you're someone else, and you have to take time off from work to plead with a government bureaucrat to get your bank account back.

We must have less, not more, arbitrary government intrusion into the lives of ordinary Indian citizens. After so many decades of ridiculously poor governance, why is that so hard to understand?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RoyG » 06 May 2010 18:43

Abhijeet wrote:
RamaY wrote:Here I am presuming that a synchronous check will take hours {to cross check with the centralized data base}

A background check will happen asynchronously and if the system finds a duplicate entry (matching finger prints, IRIS etc) then the system locks both the accounts. Then I [and my duplicate] have to visit the local verification centers and provide necessary proofs. Cutting off vital services is one definite way the system can force compliance, IMO; especially if the duplicate entries are true {imagine a national security scenario where a terrorist got duplicate identity cards}.


I don't know if you live in India. Not everything should be justified on the grounds "imagine what would happen if a terrorist gamed the system". Because of this, we already have some of the world's most cumbersome procedures for simple things - getting a SIM card, opening a bank account, even changing your address with your auto insurance company. Are there any statistics on how many terrorist attacks have actually been prevented by such laborious procedures?

It sounds harmless to say that the system will "force compliance" by cutting off vital services. It won't seem so harmless when the system mistakenly thinks you're someone else, and you have to take time off from work to plead with a government bureaucrat to get your bank account back.

We must have less, not more, arbitrary government intrusion into the lives of ordinary Indian citizens. After so many decades of ridiculously poor governance, why is that so hard to understand?


I agree...

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RamaY » 06 May 2010 23:06

I currently do not live in India. But I lived in India for 22 years and has been visiting at least once a year. I can confidently say that I am aware of the ground situation.

Nothing wrong if the preference is for a passive compliance. But be aware of the consequences -

In the next phase, more vital and civic-supplies related services are planned to be integrated with this UID. Imagine the snow-ball effect. Even a 0.01% non compliance (99.99% accuracy) will result in more than 1 lakh duplicate ids. If the administrative bodies are as competent as you guys say, imagine the fallout. BTW, don't forget to multiply that number of systems/channels that are integrated with UID.

There was a post on Bihar's experience with bio-metric IDs and learn how Nitish's administration solved it.

***

I fail to understand how asking for a security-deposit money, which should be significant enough to motivate the individual to solve the issue, is a better approach. How many people in India can afford say Rs 10,000 security deposit?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Asit P » 07 May 2010 01:49

MindTree outbids TCS, Wipro, Infy to win UIDAI contract

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/inf ... 874991.cms

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Sachin » 07 May 2010 10:13

RamaY wrote:How many people in India can afford say Rs 10,000 security deposit?

I got this idea from a practise started by an then young IPS Officer in Kochi city. He used to pick up goons, convince him to mend their ways. And then using an obscure law in India's law books used to take them to a Revenue Divisional Officer (RDO) an IAS officer, but who was an executive magistrate (and not judicial magsitrate) who make the goons sign a surety of Rs.1 lakh. It is a "surety bond" which says that if the goon continues to be a goon, he and the people who stood as gurantee would have to pay Rs.1 lakh or land up in prison. The bond was for surety, the goon did not pay up Rs. 1 lakh in advance. The same principle can be applied here, IMHO.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby vina » 07 May 2010 12:07

The Census folks visited yesterday and since I work out of home these days, I was the person who answered the questions.

They ask stuff like how many bedrooms/rooms, how many bathrooms, kitchen & bathroom inside /outside house, do you have running water and power, do you have a car / 2 wheeler, education levels.. how many people, where were you born . usual stuff.

In addition, they collect the details for the UID and she said that the census details will automatically go into the and that these will be used to generate the UID. Makes sense. Since they are doing the Census anyway, get the data need for the UID from there straight and just get the biometric thing done finally to generate and issue the number.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranay » 10 May 2010 17:59

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265326

Aadhaar gets under way in Pilot... and the practical difficulties it encounters... :)

Three women are fighting to take one chair in a classroom of a government school in Chelur village, in Gubbi taluka of Tumkur district. One sits on the lap of another and the third tries to push them both off the chair. What all three want is to be the first to be profiled under the Centre’s ambitious Aadhaar or unique identity number (UID) project. Their squabbling holds up the documentation by nearly 20 minutes, and the crowd outside, standing in line in the afternoon sun, grows restless. To calm them, the village revenue secretary orders the distribution of another round of buttermilk.

Chelur is one of four villages in the district picked for field trials before the 12-digit UIDs are assigned to people later in the year. Besides Tumkur, the pilot project is simultaneously running in seven villages of Mysore district. Each village has been given a target of 2,400-2,500 profiles to be completed in 20 days. This involves photographing the face, imaging the iris and scanning all ten digits of each person profiled and assigned a UID.

Villagers are enthusiastic about this rigorous profiling process even though there’s little awareness about the true purpose of the exercise. This is because of some falsehoods that have somehow spread in these areas. Nagamma, an elderly woman coming out after being profiled, thinks her eyes had been tested and found to be in perfect condition. Another middle-aged woman thought the exercise would bring her a new ration card—one that would entitle her family to an extra four kilos of rice. Some others were in a tizzy that if they didn’t undergo this “photography” their BPL cards would be taken away. Most, however, had queued up because they didn’t want to be left out of a sarkari exercise their neighbours were submitting to. Of the dozen people Outlook spoke to, only Muniswamy could tell us that this process would ensure that no one had more than one voter ID card or ration card—the way it should be, unlike some in his village who had illegally acquired two of each.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranay » 19 May 2010 02:03

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 946737.cms

All 10 fingerprints, an iris scan and a photograph of the person will be used for unique identification (UID) of individuals, the cabinet committee on UID decided on Tuesday, giving its in-principle clearance to guidelines for setting up the UID database.

In a billion-plus population, a mix of biometric and photographic record is considered necessary to ensure fidelity of information collected in the project. With UID intended to help identify beneficiaries of welfare schemes, children between ages 5 and 15 will be included in view of the ambitious right to education.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby JwalaMukhi » 29 May 2010 02:52

Well, even the limeys have wisened upto the pork-barrel scheme, and are scrapping it. Will Oxford worshipping, DER crowd in GOI see the light and follow their idols??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8707355.stm
The National Identity Card scheme will be abolished within 100 days with all cards becoming invalid, Home Secretary Theresa May has said.
The cards were designed to hold personal biometric data on an encrypted chip, including name, a photograph and fingerprints. The supporting National Identity Register was designed to hold up to 50 pieces of information.
Officials are renegotiating two contracts worth £650m with companies who had agreed to deliver parts of the scheme. It's not clear how much the government will need to pay compensation, but officials say there is no "poisoned pill" in the deals and they expect to save £86m once all exit costs are met.
Some £250m was spent on developing the national ID programme over eight years and its abolition will mean the government will avoid spending a further £800m over a decade.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Neshant » 29 May 2010 06:34

Sachin wrote:It is a "surety bond" which says that if the goon continues to be a goon, he and the people who stood as gurantee would have to pay Rs.1 lakh or land up in prison. The bond was for surety, the goon did not pay up Rs. 1 lakh in advance. The same principle can be applied here, IMHO.


I think they have this for reformed terrorists released from jail after they have served their sentence. They have to get their family to sign something, their panchayat leaders to agree to vouch for them ...etc. If there are complaints after being released from the people vouching for them or they make a nusiance of themselves, they go back to jail.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Nesoj » 29 May 2010 19:17

My Application for a new UID will have:

1.) My Name
2.) My DOB
3.) My Father's UID (If present)
4.) My Mother's UID (If present)
5.) Married Yes/No
6.) If Married, UID of Spouse:


I don't see details of UID for children......

So for example, me being an early bird, go and register for the UID on the very 1st day.....
- I am unable to provide UID's of my father and mother (they not being early birds) :-? .
- Later, when they (Father & Mother) register, there is no place where they mention my UID
- there is a 'disconnect' between me and my parents
- the whole 'family' inter correlation breaks down : :?:

Thus this mean that the 'apex member' ( my father in this case) has to register first, to maintain the integrity of the system ?

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Prem » 01 Jul 2010 02:15

http://www.cio.com/article/598231/India ... ID_Project
The Indian agency assigned by the government to issue identity numbers has proposed stiff penalties, including imprisonment, for anybody found misusing personal biometric and other information that it collects.
The UIDAI (Unique Identification Authority of India) has invited public comments by July 13 on the draft National Identification Authority of India Bill, 2010, which it has published on its Web site. The bill provides for the establishment of a National Identification Authority of India for the purpose of issuing identification numbers to individuals residing in India. The UID (Unique IDs) system will provide an effective platform for targeted subsidy payments and offering financial services to Indian people, Indian Minister of Finance Pranab Mukherjee said in February, while presenting the country's annual budget in the Parliament.The draft law, however, leaves a lot of concepts undefined, and does not directly address the issue of how the agency aims to protect the privacy of individuals, said Pavan Duggal, a cyberlaw consultant and advocate in India's Supreme Court.
By its vagueness, it is difficult to tell now whether the draft law would come into conflict with the country's Information Technology Act, amended in 2008, which is the country's main law governing electronic information, Duggal said.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 02 Jul 2010 18:33

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/no-en ... ople-34989

These people declared they had no objection to being enrolled in the census, but refused to be marked with a Unique ID for fear of the Biblical 'Beast' or the Devil, the sources said.

The fear of being identified with the 'number of the beast' stems from the Bible's Revelation chapter 13 Verse 17 which says "...and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name."

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby RamaY » 03 Jul 2010 00:08

^ Isn't Christianity the most modern, intellectual, benevolent, and only-good religion with no superstitions?

So both Muslims and Christans have panga with national-id....

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2010 10:28

RamaY wrote:^ Isn't Christianity the most modern, intellectual, benevolent, and only-good religion with no superstitions?

So both Muslims and Christans have panga with national-id....


When cryptos draw benefits from the state in their earlier secular avatar, this could hurt them in the batwa as well as the buttock.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Pranav » 03 Jul 2010 11:40

Sachin wrote:Scrap UID project, say people's organisations :lol:
Okay. So now the "people's organisations" have given the final verdict. Shall we go ahead and close the project? ;). Really dont know from which caves these "people" crawl out from, and what point is there for a daily to publish this?


Actually the objectors are right to oppose involvement of foreign companies. I believe an Israeli company was given a key contract. The data would be extremely valuable for foreign intelligence agencies.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 03 Jul 2010 14:17

RamaY wrote:^ Isn't Christianity the most modern, intellectual, benevolent, and only-good religion with no superstitions?

So both Muslims and Christans have panga with national-id....


Er, a sample size of 3000 hardly leads to the conclusion you have arrived at.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Neshant » 04 Jul 2010 10:59

I have a feeling the Indian govt will bungle up on the security front letting foreign entities get hold of the database.

I can almost see it coming.

Before launching this card first put in place the air tight security and privacy mechanisms.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Vipul » 10 Jul 2010 18:22

Finance ministry cuts UIDAI budget by Rs 4,000 cr.


UPA's ambitious project to assign a unique identification number to a billion citizens has been dealt a hard blow right at the outset,Latest buzz in IT industry with the finance ministry slashing its budget by more than half.

Sources said that the expenditure finance committee has cut down the budget of the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI) to Rs 3,000 crore from Rs 7,000 crore.

The severe pruning of the budget will force the UIDAI to issue only 10 crore UID numbers instead of the 60 crore it had originally planned for the first phase.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Asit P » 11 Jul 2010 17:56

UIDAI proposes hefty fine for misuse of ID data
“Those who steals, conceals, destroys or alters or causes any person to steal, conceal, destroy or alter any computer source code used by the Authority with an intention to cause damage, shall be liable to three years' imprisonment and a fine which shall not be less than one crore rupees,” proposes the draft.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby chaanakya » 11 Jul 2010 21:49

Asit P wrote:UIDAI proposes hefty fine for misuse of ID data
“Those who steals, conceals, destroys or alters or causes any person to steal, conceal, destroy or alter any computer source code used by the Authority with an intention to cause damage, shall be liable to three years' imprisonment and a fine which shall not be less than one crore rupees,” proposes the draft.



Three years imprisonment doesn't match up with Rs three crores fine, going by current IPC standards. We can't expect Nilkeni to be Law savy. W hat if accused/convict doesn't pay up, another three years?? , huh.

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Re: The Indian National ID Card Project

Postby Tanaji » 11 Jul 2010 22:27

The problem in India has never been lack of laws, it has always been the lack of effective implementation of existing ones. We can have a penalty of 1000000 billion followed by flogging to death, but its useless if it does not get implemented fairly, efficiently and quickly.


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