Should we discontinue EVMs?

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pankajs
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2019 13:49

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Last edited by pankajs on 11 Jul 2019 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

pankajs
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2019 14:02

RM saar, you need to spend more time thinking through your cases and you are contradicting yourself across posts too.

Let us start with one.
kapilbishnoi wrote:The only part I could never figure out was "how to fool the voter's own eyes and still get VVPAT paper match with CU votes !!
Wrong! This in NOT the only part that has to be "managed".

Lets start with the one "foundation" basics of your scenario. You initial case via
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5008&p=2365167#p2364815
(5) But the code will not cut banana paper slip.
Note ... the "Not cut" will leave the "total" vote count out of sync with the slip count. The count of votes has to match the slips when the physical verification is done! There is no escaping that scenario for VVPAT!

Basic mistake when building a case. AND this is just the beginning. As far as I am concerned the logic fails at this point so exit further analysis. Leave it to you to "modify" your case for us to take the analysis further.

Under the most favorable of circumstance for your case, a lot of other things have to be managed with the current "interlocking" physical/procedural verification's that happen. That effectively means, all poll personnel (millions of them) AND more incredibly ALL (millions of them) opposition party agents have to be co-opted. One booth or a few will not swing the elections.

tenaliram
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 11 Jul 2019 14:23

@kapilbishnoi: Lets assume that what you are saying is true. In that case, there are atleast 2 people who would need to be in the loop for generating the false votes.
1. The person who wrote the code for VVPAT
2. The person generating the file to be loaded into VVPAT. I am assuming that there is only one person who is generating this data for all the 543 seats. Note that the same machines are used in state elections too. So, I guess the same person is responsible for generating the files for state elections too. Do you honestly think that just 1 person can do all this?

Next, you are assuming that the VVPAT printing is completely silent. If not, then wont people hear the extra slips being printed and being cut when no one is in the voting booth? The control unit also does not count the vote till the slip is not cut: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=744

For your question about the different VVPATs, look at: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=175. It could simply be a case of machines from different manufacturers.

The VVPATs were developed and fine-tuned from 2010-2013 and only then were they used in elections. The entire development of VVPAT was when party A was in power. So, if this hacking theory were true, then dont you think the party A would know about it? Why would party A create a backdoor, not use it in subsequent elections and allow party B to use it and sweep the elections?

First the argument was that the EVMs could be hacked, without any explanation on how this could be done in the Indian scenario, and hence VVPAT were needed. Now that VVPATs are introduced, people are coming up with elaborate schemes on how VVPATs can hack EVMs themselves.

Lastly, in your video, I cant see what black, non-transparent window you are talking about. Look at: https://youtu.be/QtZIlxw871I?t=38
The printing, display and cutting-off of the vote slip is clearly visible. Granted that the light only turns on once the slip is completely printed, but you can clearly see the slip being printed and then being cut-off and dropped. So, I am not sure how you can say that the slip will remain there uncut and unnoticed. Your entire theory is based on the slip remaining in VVPAT uncut and unobserved by the voter and I still dont see how that is possible.

I suggest going through the EVM and VVPAT manual at: https://eci.gov.in/files/file/9230-manu ... and-vvpat/
The entire election flow is discussed in detail here. There is honestly so much information about the whole flow and ECI has done a lot to remove doubts.
Last edited by tenaliram on 12 Jul 2019 00:37, edited 2 times in total.

Sachin
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 11 Jul 2019 20:38

You may check the other responses, including a link which I was waiting for - one which explains the entire election process. Many of the points you have raised has been answered.
kapilbishnoi wrote:The manipulation is done by code in VVPAT installed at manufacturing time.

The VVPAT cannot push back any data to the Control Unit. It can only receive inputs. Secondly, the VVPAT slips in the VVPAT box is taken out and counted (symbol by symbol) and their tally should match exactly with what is there in Control Unit. EC did it during Lok Sabha 2019 elections. And it was 100% (not even 99.9%) accurate all across the country. No politician has then opened their mouth on this.

VVPAT decides whether the vote should be changed

This is a fundamental flaw in your analysis. VVPAT is a passive device. It is just a glorified printer.

VVPAT decides whether the vote should be changed
if not, VVPAT sends 7 to CU
if yes, VVPAT sends 8 to CU

Will not fly. Because such a move will cause discrepancies in the vote count between VVPAT and Control Unit. You cannot print one symbol in the paper, cut it and then ask Control Unit to change the vote to some one else. As I said the VVPAT vote tally is cross checked with Control Unit vote tally. Both should match (and have matched so far). And the VVPAT has to cut and drop every single slip - there is not other chamber in which the "misused/incorrect" slips can be hidden away :).

Nothing to do with EVM insider manipulation. The one who manipulates EVM is bigger than the sum of all these showcases

EVMs are made & handled by multiple vendors. So are you saying that some party can bribe them (or they are all one party's supporters) and ask them to tamper the EVMs? If yes, they could have done that from day one. No body cried about EVM hacking until and after one dynasty party started losing elections big time.

By the way, can you let us how you concluded that VVPAT is a full fledged computer? And that it can manipulate the control unit? Do you have any specific references for the same?

tenaliram
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 12 Jul 2019 00:36

As an example of all the false narratives, this is the best example. Back in 2017, there was a big breaking news of a scandal where the VVPAT was printing slips for only party B during a demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg0rX-0Z3xk

Look at the description for the video: "Every time she pressed a button, same party's slips came", "Saleena Singh was seen telling journalists that this news should not appear in newspapers".

Now actually hear whats happening in the video: You can clearly hear the official show and say that when button 4 is pressed, information about that candidate appears. When button 2 is pressed, then corresponding information is printed. When an invalid button or 2 buttons are pressed at the same time, then nothing is printed. Its now that she says that if newspapers publish "VVPATs are not printing any slips" then that will be incorrect and wrong. At the end, she also asks "Are you now satisfied?"

The follow up report: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/an-e ... 63808.html

This false narrative about EVM hacking has been built up steadily and if allowed to go unchecked will damage the credibility of our elections and government. Asking questions is completely valid in a democracy, but please do your research before casting doubts.

The problem is that India needs a strong and active opposition. Currently, the opposition is in tatters and clueless and instead of analyzing the actual reasons for their failures and working on them, they are taking the easy way out and trying to build a false narrative of hacked EVMs.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 12 Jul 2019 06:38

RMji, (You may claim otherwise, but the walk test and quack test says something else)

1. There is no server involved. There is a simple SLU device (symbol loading unit) that will allow the service engineer to select serial number of candidate and serial number of symbol (list of symbols is fixed and known) and type in the name of the candidate. Once set, this SLU can be connected to each of the VVPAT unit in turn and load the table.

2. There is no JPG. The symbols are simple bitmaps (BMP) permanently stored within the VVPAT. The SLU simply transfers a table (serial number, name and symbol serial number) to the VVPAT.

3. There is no real time clock with battery backup in the CU. The moment battery is removed, the time resets.

4. The earth is round.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 12 Jul 2019 12:38

tenaliram wrote:The problem is that India needs a strong and active opposition. Currently, the opposition is in tatters and clueless and instead of analyzing the actual reasons for their failures and working on them, they are taking the easy way out and trying to build a false narrative of hacked EVMs.

When a few doubting thomases keep on crying about EVM and VVPAT, the political parties had already found ways to defeat the system. That is to leave the electronic device alone, and focus on tasks which are done manually. In KL what the CPI(M) did was to tamper the voter list. The voter lists are prepared & updated by state govt. employees who have strong political leanings. Same person's name was added to voter lists of different booths. They have already found a solution to remove the indelible ink mark, so that the bogus voter can run to his/her next booth. It was an alert MP candidate in Thiruvananthapuram who first smelled a rat. He checked and identified all duplicates and shared the data with State Election Commission and his booth agents. Net result; not even one commie tried to do multiple voting :lol:. The CPI(M) candidate there lost miserably :lol:.

So if you notice more than EVM & VVPAT, the next area to be cleaned up is the voter list. Tag it to Aadhaar and we can fix that as well. One chap, one vote.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 13 Jul 2019 05:44

Dilipji

I am not Rahulji. End.

Could you please post links on this data loader device? ECI manuals that I read do not mention them. My friend worked on VVPAT in the year 2014 in Haryana election and from him, I came to know that VVPAT data is downloaded from a server. One needs to study that device to see how the candidate number can be passed to THAT device, which can then pass to all VVPATs.

And if CU doe not have an inner clock, then how does it show the date when it starts? And the date is reset to some zero value when the battery is removed. Then how is it set to present datetime? All in all, CU has a clock in it, and it knows the datetime.

Sachinji, Pankajji, etc

In case you noted, Dilipji did not question about how two voters, both see banana but the paper slip printed will be one apple, one banana, and electronic vote will be the same. Dilipji is only questioning that it is impossible to communicate polling date and candidate number to CU or VVPAT.

I will write (or copy paste) a full article with all the details. Meanwhile, let me read all 100 pages of this thread to see what arguments were made in the past. I have a deadline to meet, I will post after 5-7 days.

And I will ignore all congress bjp cpm aap issues raised. And other fake criticism published in media. I have been a victim of false court cases. I know how the media and courts work.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 19 Jul 2019 18:33

Dileep wrote:The firmware is One Time Programmable. Once programmed, it can not be changed. The only way to have a different program is to replace the board.

The order of candidates will be known only after the final list is prepared. So, biasing it beforehand is impossible. The immensely resourceful Rahul Mehta proposed one of the most convoluted scheme for this, which is as theoretically possible and as easy as balancing a cone on its tip.

Machines are brought in en masse to the state and allocated randomly to the district, and then once again randomly to the constituency. So, any 'magically pre-biased' machine possibility is gone.

Machines are stored by the local babudom with involvement of the political parties. So, is there really a possibility of replacing the machines, or boards within the machines, except by Harry Potter technology?

And what am I doing here? Proving earth is round?


You were using all these arguments to oppose introduction of VVPATs, no?

Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design.

tenaliram
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 19 Jul 2019 21:50

@Pranav,
For your question about the different VVPATs, look at: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=175. It could simply be a case of machines from different manufacturers.

In your video, I cant see why the printing and cutting of slip is not visible to you or what black, non-transparent window you are talking about. Look at: https://youtu.be/QtZIlxw871I?t=38
The printing, display and cutting-off of the vote slip is clearly visible. Granted that the light only turns on once the slip is completely printed, but you can clearly see the slip being printed and then being cut-off and dropped.

Can you show exactly where in the video you cant see the slip being printed or being cut?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RajD » 19 Jul 2019 22:09

[quote/] You were using all these arguments to oppose introduction of VVPATs, no?

Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design.[/quote]

I beg to differ here with you if you are saying that people were not able to see the slips being printed and dropped off during the recent Lok Sabha elections. I want to categorically state that I could see the slip being printed in the name of the candidate whom I voted for and being dropped off not only for me but for my aged mother also whom I needed to assist in voting with permission from the polling officer in the recently concluded Lok Sabha elections.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 20 Jul 2019 01:26

For technically inclined people, there is a very nice presentation for EVM which I posted here:
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2354498#p2354498
This two hour presentation is worth watching in full for those who are not fearful of technical details. ..
>>>
This is rather long (2 hour) technical presentation of Indian EVM's .. They are amazingly hack proof and reliable .. The presentation is by the renowned, IIT Prof who was involved in the design etc so it is for the technical people, yet most of the lecture (at least the first hour) can be followed by even non computer-scientists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ORLvgM8ro&f
(I do have pdf slides of the above lecturer but I don't know if it is suitable to post it here)


I asked the author to do some nice write-up for general public.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 20 Jul 2019 01:30

..Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design...


Sorry but to put it bluntly these kind of "reports" are dishonest, untrue (easily demonstrated) to put it mildly.

It is incredible that people will believe anything ..


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