Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Tanaji
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 13:33

Since now the focus has shifted to totalizers..

The totalizer was brought in because there was a criticism that due to EVMs, booth level voting patterns were apparent in contrast with paper ballots where the ballot papers would be mixed with other booths papers to ensure anonymity. All the totalizer does is act as an interface to multiple CUs, and gives a count of the total connected CUs. So on the surface, this is a *good* thing.

The argument here is that totalizers somehow assign votes from one party to the other party. Additional votes cannot be added in the totalizer, since there is in all likelihood a paper trail that keeps track of total votes polled per CU and they compare it with Totalizer output. Is this possible in theory? Yes, of course, its a program that has not been audited and can have been hacked. But it would be the most amateurish, stupid and p*ss poor way of rigging an election, even more cruder than stuffing ballot boxes. Here is why:

  • The CUs are still around and their output is not deleted. Thus the original count is still around At any point in time one can go back and look at each CU, add things up using a calculator and compare it without a totalizer. An attacker knows this as well, and its difficult to cover his tracks
  • The Totalizer cannot change the CU output either, once polls are closed, the CU cannot be changed.
  • If idiots like us can figure out totalizer is the weak link, so can the representatives of the polling parties, they will surely have demanded totalizer validation during the testing phase.

The totalizer is just a glorified calculator that anonymizes the booth level details. Surely, validating the totalizer is easy and must have been done before: its a simple add and compare.

BTW, those who accuse of a mass conspiracy: here is a suggestion. At your place of work, try bribing the accountant/cashier whoever, to transfer Rs. 10 to you on a regular basis from your company's account illegally. See how long that conspiracy lasts, with just 2 people in the loop. And then compare it with your proposed conspiracy where 100s are involved.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 15 Jul 2009 14:01

Pranav wrote:

If the "rigging mode" is triggered by a specific combination of keys, you will not be able to reproduce that behavior unless you know that combination. (For example, one could set things up so that in order to rig in favour of candidate assigned to key x, first press keys 1 and 7 simultaneously, and then press key x.) This is apart from any vulnerabilities introduced by the totaliser mechanism.


I think the above and the maintenance/coding outsourcing are the two areas where there are some doubts. Let's see if we get some clarity on this.


The physical way to ship X number of EVM in and out seems to be very very difficult. For all interested, please see the Pictorial guide to operating the EVMs. IMHO, it makes it difficult to change EVMs before and after polling. So the first two areas of concern remain, the shipping can be ruled out.


These are ECIL as seen in the pdf. Pictorial guide : Right click, save...

http://northgoa.gov.in/EVM-ECIL1.pdf

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 14:11

Rahul Mehta wrote:Shiv,

Number of EVMs are 1.4 million, not 11 million.

In electronics, design costs are high and scale of economy applies.

So you cant get one rigged EVM which looks exactly like non-rigged EVM for Rs 500,000 .

But you can get 500,000 rigged EVMs for Rs 500 cr.

----

Still you can try following'

1. You try to get a manufacturer in Bangalore who can give you a rigged EVM which looks just like actual EVM. Costs will be too high - plastic mold alone will cost you Rs 500,000 and PCD design another Rs 500,000

2. Program the rigged EVM to give to 10% more votes than opponent

3. Replace the rigged EVM with real one just one day before election. For this , you only need to bribe the local chowkidaar. Give him Rs 5000 and he will do it. And if they are in lock and key, you need a good locksmith or bribe the person who has key.

4. After election, put original EVM back.

.


You are aware of course how ludicrous you sound? The most obvious objections are

  • Each EVM has a unique code associated with it that is allocated by the authorities (EC) and probably there are other parameters as well. How ill these be duplicated? Oh, I get it, the all mighty CIA again.
  • Its not just duplicating the EVMs, its duplicating associated paraphernalia : inspection stickers, logos, forms etc. Yes, its trivial for you, but getting this done at the scale of a national election?
  • Where will you get the schematics for the EVMs from? Oh, thats right, all might CIA bribes the BEL people as well! There was a EC report that the main processor used for the EVMs was a custom job from a Japan foundry. So the all mighty CIA bribes the foundry as well?
    Dont you think 1.4 million brand new EVMs turning up one day is going to raise eyebrows? They will even look newer than the old EVMs that they replace
  • Putting back the old EVM is not an option. You obviously have no experience or knowledge of the complexity involved. Try working in a library with hundreds of book that need to be restocked on the shelves after being returned. See how many of those dont end up in their proper places. And you are talking about 1.4 million EVMs to be replaced. And of course, the old EVMs need to have the original vote count on them, how do you get that? Oh yes, mighty CIA again, it just duplicates it from old EVMs...

Really you are now raising ludicrous theories.

rahul Mehta, stop misleading the COMMONS for your 1 crore Rs. agenda.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 14:55

Raju wrote:As far as we know, EVM totalizers were not used in Gujarat and that's it.

In absence of reliable information, it is to be presumed they were used everywhere else especially in the six states of Tamil Nadu, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan.


As per the EC, totalizers are going to be used only in constituencies where there is voter intimidation and fraud reported historically. So its not a widespread usage. So it would be incorrect to say it had widespread use in the states you mentioned.

The question to ask is why EC did not consider any constituency in Gujarat as open to intimidation.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 15:33

Tanaji wrote: * The CUs are still around and their output is not deleted. Thus the original count is still around At any point in time one can go back and look at each CU, add things up using a calculator and compare it without a totalizer. An attacker knows this as well, and its difficult to cover his tracks
* The Totalizer cannot change the CU output either, once polls are closed, the CU cannot be changed.


All such statements about the security of the EVMs and totalizers are conjectures. Apparently the software is outsourced, maintenance is outsourced to Congress-owned companies, and independent audit is absolutely forbidden. And even if audit were allowed, it would be very difficult to fully verify a system with millions of transistors and interconnections.

Tanaji wrote:
BTW, those who accuse of a mass conspiracy: here is a suggestion. At your place of work, try bribing the accountant/cashier whoever, to transfer Rs. 10 to you on a regular basis from your company's account illegally. See how long that conspiracy lasts, with just 2 people in the loop. And then compare it with your proposed conspiracy where 100s are involved.


Are you trying to make a general case that big conspiracies don't happen? That would be a pretty easy to refute. For example, one can very easily prove, beyond reasonable doubt, in 2 1/2 minutes, that the 7/7 London train & bus bombings were perpetrated by UK-based plutocrats and intelligence agencies. See the Peter Power interview in the film 7/7 Ripple Effect (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6453&hl=en) from 6:15 - 8:45. For another interview of Peter Power see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... va&aid=821 . But that's not the sort of thing that ordinary, sensible folks would get from their daily dose of mainstream media. These things don't happen in India? Read again the article by Rajinder Puri that I posted. Here is another good one: http://www.boloji.com/myword/mw090.htm

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 15 Jul 2009 16:15

Widespread or not, totalizers were used in LS elections. We need to know in what percentage of constituencies Totalizers are used. It is vaguely mentioned (alleged?) that the totalizing software is outsourced to some DOOs and we need know if that was true. If it is true then we need to what was the need to outsource? Totalizing software should be a very simple one and why the hell it has to be coded by someone else?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 16:21

It is interesting how people will demand unreasonable security , yet use shockingly insecure tradeoffs in other aspects of life, even when that decision has the potential to cause severe physical or monetary harm to them. Consider:

  • You use a computer to do your banking. You trust the OS, the browser and most importantly your bank to do this transaction. You have not verified any of the underlying software. Why? Because in your view, its a reasonable tradeoff of usability over security. Its another matter that if someone hacks any link this chain and you lose the money, an Indian bank is going to blame *you* . Yet you use it. Same logic for ATMs.
  • You cross the road, and trust the signals to work correctly. You dont audit the micro code that controls the timings. In theory, someone could hack it to cause an accident once every 100000 changes. You don't audit it.
  • You get into an airplane, car, whose critical functions are controlled by a microprocessor. In theory if someone hacks it, you will die.

One makes countless more tradeoffs of security versus usability every day. Why is trusting your life to a microprocessor any more different than trusting your vote to one? Especially since the quantum of proof provided that either systems are hacked is the same i.e. zero?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 16:24

Muppalla wrote:Widespread or not, totalizers were used in LS elections. We need to know in what percentage of constituencies Totalizers are used. It is vaguely mentioned (alleged?) that the totalizing software is outsourced to some DOOs and we need know if that was true. If it is true then we need to what was the need to outsource? Totalizing software should be a very simple one and why the hell it has to be coded by someone else?


No one diasagrees that audits should be performed. The EC should do a neutral audit of the EVM code and totalizer code.

The problem is no amount of such auditing will satisfy the likes of Pranav and Rahul Mehta who will find some pretext or the other to trash the system. Especially a neta like Rahul Mehta who is beyond logic, physics, space or time laws.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 16:31

All such statements about the security of the EVMs and totalizers are conjectures. Apparently the software is outsourced, maintenance is outsourced to Congress-owned companies, and independent audit is absolutely forbidden. And even if audit were allowed, it would be very difficult to fully verify a system with millions of transistors and interconnections.

Hmm, transistors and interconnects again!! Maybe you want to audit the silicon. Waitaminit! Silicon comes from sand, so audit the sand as well!!

Software is outsourced. What difference does that make when it is done in source code level? How much code is needed to implement the logic of "field activation", and conditional add/subtract of votes? How would it compare with the simple one-to-one key mapping of the regular operation? How would you insert your spurious code in the source without detection at the review stage at BEL?

Have you ever wrote code? Have you passed that code through a decent ISO9000 compliant (I am not talking about CMM here. Just piss poor ISO) review system? Or, did CIA buy off BEL? Then you better be REALLY SCARED, because most of our DEFENSE electronics are made by them. The radars are going to blink when unkil attacks us.

Maintenance is outsourced. So what? Are they going to replace the chips with spurious ones without anyone knowing?

Tell you what. Half of the paranoia happens because people have no clue how things work. People hear about PCs being hacked, and think that the EVMs are similarly hackable.

The politicians are pissed because they can no longer rig the election. That is why!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 16:33

Muppalla wrote:Widespread or not, totalizers were used in LS elections. We need to know in what percentage of constituencies Totalizers are used. It is vaguely mentioned (alleged?) that the totalizing software is outsourced to some DOOs and we need know if that was true. If it is true then we need to what was the need to outsource? Totalizing software should be a very simple one and why the hell it has to be coded by someone else?

Mupalla, totalizer was not used for the election. That machine is tested using the EVMS after the votes are counted in the regular fashion, and results were declared.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 16:41

Dileep wrote:Hmm, transistors and interconnects again!! Maybe you want to audit the silicon. Waitaminit! Silicon comes from sand, so audit the sand as well!!


Looks like you are proposing an audit scheme that uses access to only the external ports. If you can mathematically prove that your scheme can fully characterize whatever is in the black box, without any prior assumptions, I'd be willing to consider it. But in any case independent audit is not being permitted so this discussion of audits is moot.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 15 Jul 2009 16:47

Then what is the software that is outsourced ( or alleged to be outsourced)? I beleive, these are simple counting machines and how many software packages will be there to really be written by everyone in the world? One program will fit everything and why in the world this outsourcing is even being coming into picture. EC is not even denying it.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 16:53

Let me make it clear that I support independent audit of the design of the machines. Publishing the code won't help a bit. The ECI will have to field an army of techies to fight the Pranav types who want to verify the ASCII codes of the source files.

We had once a stupid ISO auditor, who demanded that all the test softwares to be calibrated to make sure that they doesn't deteriorate by wear and tear. I had to make a procedure where the floppies are controlled, and verified by a diskcomp command on DOS with a master disk. If we have a Pranav who want to verify the "transistors and interconnects" on BRF, imagine how many will be out there?

But would an independent audit be enough? The mighty CIA, who bought Naveen Chawla and 300 DEOS and 540 ROs and countless election officials, would easily buy Prof Balaguruswamy too. Maybe if we can get Good old Kalam Sir to do the audit, the BRF janta might agree. But what about the rest of the naysayers?

You can't win. If we deliver the source, binaries and the build system to Rahul Mehta, and he verifies and agrees that it is fine, how would you prove that it has/would be the one used in the election. The only way to do that is to have Rahul Mehta personally program all the units, and personally take them to each polling booth and get them polled.

Would that work? No. He will say that the CIA modified the machines in the storage by using a passkey.

You simply can't win!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 16:58

Dileep wrote:You simply can't win!!


You simply can't win because the electronic voting simply cannot be made adequately secure!! That's why so many sensible countries have gotten rid of it!
Last edited by Pranav on 15 Jul 2009 17:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 15 Jul 2009 17:01

If EVMs can be made totally fool-proof, then why the hell is country after country in the West banning them? Their experts don't know the kind of solutions being offered here or what?

Also, once experts of foriegn intelligence agencies get down to work, no amount of such measures can secure the machines. They will try every trick in the game, from secret technology (that people even don't know exists) to outright bribes, espionage or subversion. Things will be worse if the ruling party actively connives with them to secure a positive result and plants its own stooges in the election commission (Chawla, anyone?) and gets the machines maintained by its own people.

Why do you think governments everywhere in the world do not use Windows in their computers, instead they use linux? (Germany banned Windoes from its government computers when its engineers detected a secret "gateway" built into the system to give CIA access to the computers.)

CIA in its report has said it has spotted vote-rigging schemes in operation in three countries where EVMs are being used. Either CIA is smoking pot or some experts here are overstating the "secure" measures that can be taken for EVMs to make them temper-proof.

Who needs this technical hair-splitting? Aren't the election results absurd enough and far too convenient for the Congress? If this doesn't ring any alarm-bells, then I suggest keep snoring till the whole country is sold down the river. The smoking gun is in front of us, and you guys have worked yourself into a lather about its inner mechanism.
Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 15 Jul 2009 17:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 17:04

Pranav wrote:
Dileep wrote:Hmm, transistors and interconnects again!! Maybe you want to audit the silicon. Waitaminit! Silicon comes from sand, so audit the sand as well!!


Looks like you are proposing an audit scheme that uses access to only the external ports. If you can mathematically prove that your scheme can fully characterize whatever is in the black box, without any prior assumptions, I'd be willing to consider it. But in any case independent audit is not being permitted so this discussion of audits is moot.


The audit scheme need to verify the software code, and the functional operation of the box. There is no need to verify the transistors and interconnects within the microcontroller.

No, let us take the audit discussion further. The following would completely establish the integrity of the system.

1. Get the complete source code of the system. It is a simple embedded unit, with a single executable image. That makes it easy to verify.

2. Verify the code for proper function.

3. Verify the switches/lamps on the unit that provide the user interface.

4. Compile the source into binary.

5. Compare the production binary with the compiled binary, to see that the executable is exactly the same.

6. Program the OTP and verify the checksum via JTAG. This checksum should match on all units that use this binary.

7. Field audit the units for this checksum.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 17:08

Sanjaychoudhry, if the loser parties are so sure of rigging, let them put their might together and prove it. Such a widespread fraud can't be kept under wraps forever. The parties have money and resources.

PROVE IT!! (and see me eating a4 size sheets of paper on youtube)

If they can't prove it because the CIA is mighty powerful, why blame congress? How could they resist the mighty CIA that your parties couldn't?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 17:11

Good old CIA...

  • We are ready to buy nuclear reactors from the USA without auditing their code. This has the potential to kill millions
  • We buy defence systems from France, Russia and Israel without audits. We trust our countries defence and our soldier's lives without audits
  • We run our financial transactions, not just end user stuff, but inter banking transactions like SWIFT etc to unaudited software that has a foreign connection. RBI trusts our economy to unaudited software.

Yet, somehow elections are different, even though no proof is trotted out, merely conspiracy theories.

Sanjachoudhary:

The western EVMs are demonstrably more insecure than this because they have lots of bells and features. The Indian EVM is more secure because its low tech. Is it fool proof and 100% secure? No, but then nothing in life is.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 17:13

Dileep wrote:
7. Field audit the units for this checksum.



Looks like you are relying on the blackbox giving out the actual code that has been burned into the PROMs when you query it with whatever protocol. But one could make systems which have built-in logic to circumvent this. So there could be code that's secretly on there but that you would never see by whatever protocol you are using.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 17:14

The burden of proof is on those who are vehemently supporting EVMs.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 17:18

Pranav wrote:
Dileep wrote:
7. Field audit the units for this checksum.



Looks like you are relying on the blackbox giving out the actual code that has been burned into the PROMs when you query it with whatever protocol. But one could make systems which have built-in logic to circumvent this. So there could be code that's secretly on there but that you would never see by whatever protocol you are using.


Ever heard of JTAG?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 15 Jul 2009 17:19

If EVMs cannot be tempered with and election results cannot be changed, then I presume Congress was hell-bent on making Chawla the chief of election commission only because of his immense charm.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 15 Jul 2009 17:21

Questions that should be answered in good faith:

Known unknowns:

1. Totaliser
2. Outcourcing of coding, if yes
3. Outcourcing of maintenance, if yes
4. Outcourcing of manufacturing of processors

For the unknown unknowns, like trojan ( ex given by Pranav ) and others, how does one assess the situation?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 17:26

Pranav wrote:The burden of proof is on those who are vehemently supporting EVMs.


Er no, reasonable proof on the security of the EVM has been provided. You are the one who is making a claim against its validity. Ergo, you need to provide better information other than "transistors and interconnects" "mysterious code" to take your claim seriously.

If this fraud is so widespread, how difficult is to produce a single person who was a part of this conspiracy?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 17:37

Dileep wrote:Ever heard of JTAG?


You can give documentation for whatever protocol you propose, and argue why it's mathematically impossible to circumvent it.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 17:39

Tanaji wrote:Er no, reasonable proof on the security of the EVM has been provided.


No reasonable proof has been provided. In fact, independent audits have been expressly prohibited. Contracts have been given to Congress companies and CEC is a known thug.
Last edited by Pranav on 15 Jul 2009 17:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 17:40

sanjaychoudhry wrote:If EVMs cannot be tempered with and election results cannot be changed, then I presume Congress was hell-bent on making Chawla the chief of election commission only because of his immense charm.

Congress must have done a thousand corrupt acts, including serious election fraud. But that can not involve modifying the EVM software, or using an existing backdoor in the software.

That is all we are talking about here. Is the EVM trustworthy. We are NOT talking about the CEC, Congress party, its leaders or anything else.

Even a 100% corrupt political system can't make fraud with the EVMs, because of the multi party participation. Any fraud will be uncovered by the losing party.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 17:43

Pranav wrote:
Dileep wrote:Ever heard of JTAG?


You can give documentation for whatever protocol you propose, and argue why it's mathematically impossible to circumvent it.


Please state and verify your credentials qualifying you to understand the proof first. Your posts here don't give confidence in that regard.

In other words, if you don't know what JTAG is, then is no point in trying to explain it.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 17:51

Dileep wrote:
In other words, if you don't know what JTAG is, then is no point in trying to explain it.


I can understand mathematical proofs and I am confident that any protocol relying on a black-box approach can be circumvented by appropriate internal logic.

It's not me specifically who needs to be addressed - there are many people interested in this issue and some of the people involved in the PILs are engineering faculty etc.

But don't forget that in any case independent audit is not being allowed.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 18:01

Pranav wrote:I can understand mathematical proofs and I am confident that any protocol relying on a black-box approach can be circumvented by appropriate internal logic.


IF you are so confident that the EVMs were hacked how is it that you cannot provide a shred of evidence in support of your claim? A person, a EVM with the hacked firmware that was used in the election, duplicate EVMs made by CIA from outside, anything?

Why is it all that you can come up with is CIA, mysterious code combinations, replacing EVMs despite having lots of people involved etc etc?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 18:03

Tanaji wrote:IF you are so confident that the EVMs were hacked how is it that you cannot provide a shred of evidence in support of your claim? A person, a EVM with the hacked firmware that was used in the election, duplicate EVMs made by CIA from outside, anything?

Why is it all that you can come up with is CIA, mysterious code combinations, replacing EVMs despite having lots of people involved etc etc?


I have argued that the EVMs are hackable, the contracts are being given to Congress companies, independent audit is not being allowed, and that the CEC is a thug. That's all I set out to do.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 18:12

Pranav wrote:I can understand mathematical proofs and I am confident that any protocol relying on a black-box approach can be circumvented by appropriate internal logic.

Given the evidence of your posts, I even doubt THAT. I have to ask for verified credentials.

It's not me specifically who needs to be addressed - there are many people interested in this issue and some of the people involved in the PILs are engineering faculty etc.

Sure, people stupider than you are a-plenty. At least you know enough computer to login and post at BRF. If I go to the chai-kada here, I am sure I will hear expert opinions from people whose sole technical achievement is making a call on his cell phone.
But don't forget that in any case independent audit is not being allowed.


Wouldn't blame the ECI on that. The ONLY outcome would be mud slinging on the resources they use. Would I dare to be an auditor? Then suffer people like you and Rahul Mehta for the rest of my life? OMG!!

Dileep
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 18:15

Pranav wrote:I have argued that the EVMs are hackable, the contracts are being given to Congress companies, independent audit is not being allowed, and that the CEC is a thug. That's all I set out to do.


I have no contest issues two and four. I technically agree on independent audit, but in reality that will be a big problem. It is the first one that I don't agree.

The EVMS can't be hacked, without leaving blaring evidence, by any of the methods mentioned here.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 18:23

Now you have descended into petty ad-hominem attacks. If you have any real points to make they will be considered by interested parties..

Dileep wrote:
Pranav wrote:I can understand mathematical proofs and I am confident that any protocol relying on a black-box approach can be circumvented by appropriate internal logic.

Given the evidence of your posts, I even doubt THAT. I have to ask for verified credentials.

It's not me specifically who needs to be addressed - there are many people interested in this issue and some of the people involved in the PILs are engineering faculty etc.

Sure, people stupider than you are a-plenty. At least you know enough computer to login and post at BRF. If I go to the chai-kada here, I am sure I will hear expert opinions from people whose sole technical achievement is making a call on his cell phone.
But don't forget that in any case independent audit is not being allowed.


Wouldn't blame the ECI on that. The ONLY outcome would be mud slinging on the resources they use. Would I dare to be an auditor? Then suffer people like you and Rahul Mehta for the rest of my life? OMG!!

Pranav
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 18:28

Dileep wrote:The EVMS can't be hacked, without leaving blaring evidence, by any of the methods mentioned here.


The EV system (ie EVM and totaliser) is hackable via fraudulent binaries, and I disagree that it will necessarily leave "blaring evidence". Only a handful would need to be in the know.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 18:33

Pranav wrote:
Dileep wrote:The EVMS can't be hacked, without leaving blaring evidence, by any of the methods mentioned here.


The EV system (ie EVM and totaliser) is hackable via fraudulent binaries, and I disagree that it will necessarily leave "blaring evidence". Only a handful would need to be in the know.


Of course, you have provided zero evidence as to how to get these binaries on to the EVMs in the first place in a manner that leaves no evidence of tampering.

Shiv has offered a monetary offer, give us some "smoking gun" evidence that it has been done in the 2009 elections. And saying Chawla is a thug is not evidence.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2009 18:36

Seriously, for all those stuck up on EVM audits, why is it that you will trust a unaudited nuclear power plant from Russia (that has in the past shown that it designs unsafe ones) with *your* life or worse, but the moment someone sticks a EVM in front of you will go crazy asserting Ceee Eye Yaaaay?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 18:38

Pranav, I have no interest in personal attacks. You asked for "mathematical proof". It takes time and effort for me to present the technical information. I don't want to waste it on someone who can't understand it, the "willingness to understand" notwithstanding.

I am pissed off on people with hardly any knowledge on the technology (and it is not rocket science either) making expert comments (like your millions of transistors and interconnects) Which will then be taken by others who have still less knowledge and propagated. I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "millions of transistors and interconnects" itself appear elsewhere in the context of EVMS (Or you yourself might have copied it from somewhere).

Rahul Mehta at least makes claims based on what he understands.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 18:42

Tanaji wrote:Of course, you have provided zero evidence as to how to get these binaries on to the EVMs in the first place in a manner that leaves no evidence of tampering.

Who said no evidence. I said no blaring evidence. Tampering would be detectable (albeit with expense and difficulty) in a thorough independent audit, if the machines were subjected to it immediately after the polls. No black box approach would suffice. And this kind of audit is prohibited.

Tanaji wrote:Shiv has offered a monetary offer, give us some "smoking gun" evidence that it has been done in the 2009 elections. And saying Chawla is a thug is not evidence

I already told you what I am claiming. Don't argue with me about things that I haven't said I am claiming.
.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pgbhat » 15 Jul 2009 19:20

In all this debate about fraudulent EVMs .... can anybody give the expected number of people that have to be involved in perpetrating this fraud?


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