Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Pranav
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 04 Sep 2010 14:34

BJP demands EVMs with paper audit trail - Election Commission dodges demand

GVLNR's blog - http://www.indianevm.com/blogs/?p=440

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 05 Sep 2010 01:47

BJP delegation meets Chief Election Commissioner ahead of Bihar polls

"The objective of this meeting with Chief Election Commissioner was pertaining to the security and paper back up of electronic voting machines (EVMs). After a decade of using EVMS, its performance audit should be done and attempt should be made to enhance its foolproof security," BJP spokesperson Ravi Shankar Prasad told reporters after the meeting.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 05 Sep 2010 09:48

‘Many nations have dumped the EVM’
DNA / Amberish K Diwanji / Sunday, September 5, 2010 3:03 IST

Three intrepid men from three different continents decided to do what Mahatma Gandhi once did: break the law to fight for a larger cause. V Hari Prasad, technical coordinator of VeTA (Citizens for Verifiability, Transparency and Accountability in Elections), Rop Gonggrijp, a Dutch ethical hacker, and J Alex Halderman, professor of electrical engineering and computer science at Michigan University, were convinced that electronic voting machines (EVM) in India were not fool-proof and asked for an EVM to demonstrate their claim.

The Election Commission (EC) refused to give them a hearing. So the three got hold of an EVM, carried out a demonstration, and returned the EVM to its original place. Then they released footage of the entire tampering process to the media.

But instead of thanking the trio, an enraged EC went after them. Hari Prasad, the lone Indian, was arrested on August 21, and kept in custody till August 28, when he was released on bail. Last heard, the cops were still looking for the men who ‘stole’ the EVM for Hari Prasad, Rop, and Alex. In an interview with The Mag, Prof Halderman explains how easy it is to tamper with an EVM and why this is an issue of tremendous import for a democracy like India. Excerpts:

The EC-appointed technical committee has said that your claim that EVMs can be tampered with is a ploy to discredit Indian EVMs for the benefit of rival firms.

These allegations are baseless. Hari Prasad asked Rop Gonggrijp and me to participate in the study because we are established researchers in the electronic voting security field. Rop discovered serious problems in the machines used in his native Holland. Following his research, Holland actually switched back to paper ballots. I co-authored the first academic security analysis of a deployed EVM, which was also the first study to demonstrate the possibility of a voting machine virus.

Since then, I’ve co-authored security reviews that found flaws in many other kinds of machines, including a state-wide voting system review commissioned by the California government. Our participation in this review of the Indian EVM was paid for entirely from our university or personal funds, except for the cost of our travel to India, which was arranged by a citizens’ group named Save Indian Democracy (based in New Jersey, USA).


Good interview. Read the rest at: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/interview ... 433611-all

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 05 Sep 2010 20:46

Hmmph, listen to the illustrious CEC speak:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-a ... n/677372/0

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4346372

In his first interview after the EVM controversy broke out, CEC S Y Quraishi says India’s EVMs have stood the test of time


Q:The campaigners against the use of Indian EVMs cite examples of Ireland, Germany and the Netherlands. The German constitutional court has ruled against EVMs.

A:We should realise that in India, we follow the Supreme Court of India, not the Supreme Court of Germany. Also, we need to shed the colonial mindset—that if something hasn’t worked in countries of Europe, it will not work for us either. {uhh, what?? :shock: }Our machines have been designed differently, they have stood the test of time and judicial scrutiny.


Q:Do you see the campaign against EVMs taking a new turn after the 2009 LS polls?

A:This is not the first time that the use of EVMs has been challenged. But this time, it is more orchestrated and organised. {ohhh, sho it musht be a conshpirashee onlee! :roll: }


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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 09 Sep 2010 22:47

EC agrees for an all party meet

Election Commission has agreed to call a meeting of all political parties to discuss and explain the present system of electronic voting machines (EVM) used in India. The Commission informed the BJP delegation today that the Commission would also like to discuss the issue of increased use of money power and paid news in the election by certain political parties and others.

BJP delegation consisting of Shri Ravi Shankar Prasad, Dr. Kirit Somaiya and Shri Bhupendra Yadav and others had an hour long meeting with the full Election Commission. Dr. S. Y. Quraishi, Chief Election Commissioner, Mr. V. S. Sampath, Election Commissioner, Mr. H.S. Brahma, Election Commissioner had a lengthy discussion with the BJP leaders on the issues and their ramifications.

BJP leaders apprised the Election Commission of the need to consider use of EVMs with paper ballot back up. EVMs with paper ballot back up provide more transparency, visibility and audit trail.

The Election Commission informed the BJP delegation that the Commission is going to introduce additional internal and external security measures in connection with EVMs and this will be effected from the Bihar Assembly Elections.

All the EVMs will be thoroughly checked up in front of representatives of political parties around one month before the polling.

Additional security measures to address bugging, implantation of any device, further check up of any virus, corrupt software will be thoroughly checked by the engineers in presence of representatives of political parties.

New Full proof security seal will be put on all the EVMs after the above checking and testing.

Further consultation with IT security experts will also be undertaken.

The Election Commission will check, test the feasibility, necessity and importance of EVMs with paper ballot back up internally as well as with experts and technocrats.

• Use of EVM started in India 15 years back.

• Immediate necessity to do evaluation and improvement in present EVM system, which includes security (internal and external), etc.

• All political parties must be taken into confidence.

• A heated public debate (internal and external) is going on since one year regarding improvement in present EVM system.

• Several political parties (one and a half dozen) asked for debate and all party meeting on EVM issue.

• The recent debate in a way is an eye-opener for Election Commission, Administration, District Election Officers and all political parties.

• The vulnerability of the EVM has been discussed in national and international level over the past years.

• The recent investigation and evidence unearthed by an activist has proved the loopholes, manipulation and potential to corrupt the security system of and about EVMs.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 10 Sep 2010 07:12

SC dismisses petition on EVM

What was the reason cited by the Supreme Court in dismissing the case?

I think that another petition should be filed with the court, citing the lack of responsiveness by the EC on the concerns raised over the EVMs.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 13 Sep 2010 13:00

UPA rigged EVMs in 2009 polls: Swamy

Express News Service
13 Sep 2010 05:11:18 AM IST

HYDERABAD: Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy on Sunday alleged that the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) led by Sonia Gandhi won the 2009 general election by rigging the Electronic Voting Machines (EVM).

Calling the conduct of elections using EVMs a gigantic fraud, Subramanian Swamy, during a press conference here, said that Election Commission of India (ECI) has been cheating people in three aspects. First, the ECI has been arrogating that the EVMs cannot be rigged, which is false.

“When some of us, including Hari Prasad who was recently arrested by the Mumbai police on the charges of stealing an EVM, went to demonstrate how EVMs can be rigged, on the invitation of the ECI, and Hari Prasad was about to prove it, the technical members of the ECI backed out at the last minute.

The reason cited by them was that it amounted to infringment of the intellectual property rights,” Swamy, who has challenged the usage of EVMs in the Delhi High Court, said.

The second lie by the ECI, according to Swamy, was that the EVMs were appreciated throughout the world and India has an international patent on them. However, no country in the world except India is using the EVMs, Swamy said.

Thirdly, as per section 11, 12 of the Information Technology Act, for any transaction done by a person a receipt should be given.

But no receipt was given to a voter after he cast his or her vote using an EVM, Swamy said.

Referring to the criminal cases against Hari Prasad, a technical advisor to Veta, an NGO, Swamy said, “The ECI has already been caught lying and hence the false cases should be withdrawn.”

“There is a serious threat to the security of Hari Prasad. If anything happens to him, Sonia Gandhi should take the responsibility,” Swamy added.

Hari Prasad said someone in the government is ensuring that the EVMs are not made fool-proof. He alleged that the Maharashtra government and the Centre had played a role in his arrest.

http://expressbuzz.com/cities/hyderabad ... 06348.html

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 14 Sep 2010 10:44

The reason cited by them was that it amounted to infringement of the intellectual property rights,” Swamy, who has challenged the usage of EVMs in the Delhi High Court, said.


Uhh, what the hell kind of disgustingly crooked argument is that? Intellectual property rights??

"Hi, we of the Nehru clan are not going to allow anybody else to run for Prime Minister, because our grandaddy Jawarlal, being the first PM, therefore has a patent on that title, and therefore nobody else can hold that title without infringing on our property rights." :roll:

I am not allowed to say it by the moderators, but a country with this kind of politics looks to be more and more like a certain primitive continent nearby. This is not valid politics, and I'm stunned that more people aren't reacting to this. If this happened in a Western country, it would bring people out onto the streets. We want to boast of ourselves as the "world's largest democracy" for bragging purposes, but then we don't care to even see whether we even have what we're bragging about. It's like a guy who brags that he has a fancy car, even though he doesn't even drive it and it belongs to his uncle - he only wants it for show.

To me, if theft of a national election really has occurred by the ruling govt, then this is worse than 26/11, or Kargill, or 1948.

How can the EC get away with these kinds of comments??? They're not even clever lies - they're lazy 3rd-rate bald-faced lies. They don't even think highly enough of the Indian public to make the effort to come up with some high-quality lies. Instead, they're reflexively babbling about a "colonial mentality", "intellectual property infringement".

If you're going to illegally steal my organs, at least pump me up with some potent drugs - not some cheap whisky and some paan. :(

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 14 Sep 2010 12:47

Sanjay M wrote:Instead, they're reflexively babbling about a "colonial mentality", "intellectual property infringement".

Some times I wonder what sort of "Independence" have we actually gained? :roll:. From the Royals of Buckingham palace to the royals of Nehru- (renamed) Gandhi clan. Every thing which worked perfectly for the British empire, now works in similar fashion for this empire as well ;).

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 15 Sep 2010 03:49

Here's a current story on NYC elections:

NY's new voting machines debut, with problems

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Sep 2010 13:22

Pune engineer held, cops say gave EVM to researcher - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pune- ... er/681607/

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 25 Sep 2010 20:41

The crooked cronies are coming out to defend their masters:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 621117.cms

Methinks they doth protest too much. If every other developed democracy in the world is against Electronic Voting Machines, I don't know why our babus are desperately defending them. Why are they so afraid of having the same kinds of ballot-counting processes that the rest of the developed world uses? Why these crazy, contrived arguments about "conspiracies", "colonialism" and "gora envy"?

Something smells very rotten here. There's no reason for them to be arguing so desperately in defense of methods that nobody else around the world values - unless of course they're hiding something. I don't feel I'm being paranoid in the slightest. Indian corruption has amply demonstrated its ugly presence throughout India's history - and in fact has been the culprit for many dark turns in India's history.

The prime goal in the conduct of elections is in authenticity and credibility, not in convenience or technical wizardry. If people have to stand in line a little longer on election day, then that's an unfortunate but necessary compromise.

There is something wrong with the arguments and attitudes being displayed by the Election Commission officials. Methinks they doth protest too much. They seem more attached to their EVMs than to the Indian electorate. I haven't seen other election officials in other countries so overzealously asserting the need for electronic voting.

When in doubt, do it the way that the rest of the world does it.
Do Not Trust the Man Behind the Curtain.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanjay M » 25 Sep 2010 21:03

http://www.indianevm.com/blogs/?p=471

A month after the arrest of Hari Prasad, the Election Commission of India (ECI) is continuing with its harassment agenda in the missing EVM case used for demonstrating the vulnerabilities of the EVMs and proving the claims of the ECI to be untrue.

Mukund Lagoo, an activist fighting for tribal rights was arrested 10 days ago and is languishing in jail. Mumbai Police’s application seeking cancellation of Hari Prasad’s bail (apparently drafted by the Election Commission) threatens his arrest again. Mumbai Police are not stopping there. They plan to summon Hari Prasad’s colleagues in NetIndia for questioning. The list is unlikely to stop there.

The series of these actions show the worst form of police terror unleashed against ordinary citizens since the days of emergency imposed in 1975.

While the Election Commission’s desire to ruthlessly oppress EVM critics was evident, what was not clear earlier was the role of the Mumbai police in pursuing this case as if this was the biggest crime ever committed in Mumbai. Obviously, the Mumbai Police were acting under severe pressure from the top.

We have a reasonable explanation for this now.

Election Commission is hearing a complaint against the Maharashtra chief minister Ashok Chavan for allegedly engaging in the electoral malpractice of “paid news” during October 2009 assembly election from Bhokar constituency. “Paid news” refers to publication of news and features in newspapers/ Television in the garb of routine news coverage. The charge against Ashok Chavan is that he did not account for such expenditure in elections.

In India, there is an “expenditure ceiling” of Rs. 1 million per assembly constituency in state elections, which cannot be exceeded as per election rules.

P. Sainath, Rural affairs of the Hindu and a well regarded journalist has documented much of Ashok Chavan’s publicity glitz in the garb of news in his article titled, “Mass media: masses of money?” published on November 30, 2009 http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns ... e57019.ece

Election Commission is hearing two complaints in this regard, one by Kirit Somiaya, National Secretary of the BJP and another by Dr. Madhav Kinhalkar, a former minister of state for home in Maharastra and an ex-NCP member who lost to Ashok Chavan in last assembly polls as an independent candidate.

Election Commission had rejected Ashok Chavan’s arguments on July 9 represented through his lawyer Abhishek Manusinghvi (Spokesperson, Congress party) that the ECI had no jurisdiction in the matter. See the following link.

EC hears CM’s ‘paid news’ case, acts tough Hindustan Times, July 10

http://www.hindustantimes.com/EC-hears- ... 70079.aspx

Ever since, the chief minister is under heavy pressure. If the complaint against him is proved to be true – there seems to be a lot of evidence against him in the case – the Election Commission may invoke its quasi judicial powers to cancel the assembly membership of Ashok Chavan. In one stroke, Chavan would lose his membership and the Congress party would find it imprudent to continue him as chief minister after the charges are proved against him.

Election Commission’s threat of disqualification is hanging over Ashok Chavan’s head. A report published in The Hindu on September 8, 2010 titled “EC to fix date for Chavan’s hearing” quoted unnamed EC sources that “The Election Commission will soon fix a fresh date for hearing Maharashtra Chief Minister Ashok Chavan in the “paid news” controversy”.

That the police probe into the missing EVM case is linked to the pending enquiry against Ashok Chavan becomes obvious from the timing of the action by the Mumbai Police. Mumbai Police took no action on the complaint filed by the District Collector on May 12 in the missing EVM case and the Police action became vigorous only from July onwards when the Election Commission began to hear complaint against the chief minister.

It seems to be a reasonable conclusion that the Mumbai police are acting under the instructions of the chief minister of Maharashtra government to arrest and harass all those linked with the EVM case so that he can satiate the puerile vendetta of the Election Commission against the EVM critics.

Whether the police terror against the EVM critics is part of a quid pro quo deal between the Election Commission and the chief minister of Maharashtra or is a unilateral initiative of the chief minister to propitiate the ECI bosses in a case in which they have taken unusual interest is a moot question.

If such a deal had indeed been struck, either explicitly or otherwise, it raises ethical questions about the conduct of a public body such as the Election Commission. It shows that the rot and decay is manifest in Election Commission as much as in any other public institution in the country.

It does not behove a public institution like the ECI to engage in coercive (may I say blackmail) tactics employed by criminal gangs. Election Commission’s conduct in disposing off the Ashok Chavan case will be keenly watched in the coming weeks.

If the Election Commission lets off the chief minister in the “paid news” complaint lightly, it would be a clear signal that the Election Commission is more interested in settling scores with its critics rather than cleaning up the dirt in Indian elections.

I can be reached at nrao@indianEVM.com

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2010 23:01

I hope the case against Mr. Hari Prasad gets dismissed to cap the RJB decision.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 04 Oct 2010 13:41

Six Gujarat municipal corporations, Ahmedabad, Surat, Vadodara, Rajkot, Jamnagar and Bhavnagar go to polls Oct 10. The counting of votes would be taken up Oct 12.

Rahul Mehta, the starter of this thread, is contesting the two wards- Bodakdev ward and Stadium ward in Ahmedabad Municipal Elections with a symbol "Torch". Best wishes.

The EVMs used will permit the voters to select 3 candidates, as per Rahul Mehta.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 05 Oct 2010 07:04

EC agrees to add printers to EVMs

http://www.eenadu.net/panelhtml.asp?qry ... panel6.htm (Eenadu Telugu News Paper)

EC is actively considering adding print receipts to EVMs

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 10 Oct 2010 03:56

^^^
Is there a timeline for prinitng the votes or is it just a hawa promise with no interest to implement?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 11 Oct 2010 19:50

EC to revisit stand on EVMs
http://www.livemint.com/2010/10/0914212 ... .html?h=A1

“There is already an inbuilt paper trail in EVMs of which we can take a sequential printout only after orders from the court. However, now what is being considered is a voter-verifiable paper trail where the voter can get an acknowledgement that his vote has been correctly registered,” said a top EC official who did not want to be identified.

Explaining the process under consideration, the official said: “The mechanism being considered is that a slip will come out which will then fall into a box, and hence, the voter will not be able to take it back with him. We now have to look into two aspects—one, the technical feasibility of this exercise and, two, issues regarding voter privacy.”

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ArmenT » 11 Oct 2010 20:24

^^^^
Does the voter get to see the vote being printed via a plastic window or something?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby sampat » 11 Oct 2010 22:22

sorry for OT.

Las Vegas Slot Vs American EVM

Image

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 11 Oct 2010 22:33

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
Does the voter get to see the vote being printed via a plastic window or something?


Don't know.

This probably means the box is incorporated into the machine, which is problematic. What if the machine prints and drops into the box more votes than voters. There are also other concerns about the paper path ... whether genuine votes can be diverted, whether non-genuine votes can be inserted into the path.

Therefore one is skeptical of anything less than the voter dropping the ballot with his own hands.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ArmenT » 12 Oct 2010 09:59

^^^
Not necessarily. What if the voter drops more than one vote into the box? It's been done before.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 12 Oct 2010 10:26

Pranav wrote:What if the machine prints and drops into the box more votes than voters.

An paper trail which cannot be seen by the voter who caste his vote is going to be as meaningless as the in the case of an EVM where a person does not know what happened to his vote :). We feel that an EVM may manipulate the votes, how long does it take to make an electronic printer also work in tandem with the EVM. If EC is hell bent on adding a printer, let them have printers like in Credit Card swipe machines. One copy for the voter, and one can go back to a box fitted to the Voting device (or it can be retained by the presiding officer). With thermal papers and suitable printers available, the print outs also can be generated quickly. Only catch here would be that candidates can trace who casted their vote for whom, by doing a receipt by receipt tracking.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 12 Oct 2010 19:56

ArmenT wrote:^^^
Not necessarily. What if the voter drops more than one vote into the box? It's been done before.


This can't happen undetected if agents of candidates are observing the voting at all times, as they should be.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 12 Oct 2010 20:41

^ in the article I read it says that a paper receipt will be given to the voter.

If true, it means that the loser will have to collect all print receipts to challenge the outcome.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 15 Oct 2010 08:16

Gujarat civic polls: After defeat, Cong alleges EVM tampering

So EVMs will get changed now that Modi figured out the trick :mrgreen:

"All EVMs have been made by a Hyderabad-based company for the state government eight years ago. Therefore, it is the state government that has control over them. I believe that they have tampered with the EVMs," Vaghela alleged.

"It is not Modi magic, but machine magic which has brought victory to the BJP. The municipal polls do not reflect public opinion," he added.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 19 Oct 2010 08:35

This news are completely unrelated with EVMs per se, but do talk about general nature of how porous and carefree Indian administration has become.

===

http://www.hindu.com/2010/06/09/stories ... 800500.htm

Karwar: The Forest Department in Ankola has lodged a police complaint against port officials, some export companies and some handling agents in Belekeri for allegedly exporting about five lakh tonnes of iron ore seized by the Forest Department. Assistant Conservator of Forests Narendra Hittalamakki filed the complaint on Monday.

In April last,forest officials seized about eight lakh tonnes of iron ore stored in various jetties at Belekeri Port on the charge that they were brought to Belekeri from Bellary district without valid permits. But of the seized cargo about six lakh tonnes were exported to China by different export companies. The case of seizure by forest authorities is pending in the Karnataka High Court.

Mr. Hittalamakki has, in his complaint, said that about six lakh tonnes of the seized ore were stolen :shock: by some people in connivance with the handling agents and port officials to cheat the Government and the tax authorities.

Mahendra Biliye, Belekeri port officer, Satish Sail, Managing Director of Mallikarjuna Shipping, B.N. Shukla of Adani Shipping, Ramachandra Nayak of Salgoankar Mining Industries, Ravi Selvaraj of ILC, Vaz Ahamad Anwar of Ashapura Mining, Mangaladas Kamat of Overseas Limited, Amar Saranobat of DB Company, Pramod Shet of Lal Mahal Limited, Javed Jialan Saab of Lakshmi Venkateshwara Minerals and Shivaprakash of Metachem Manufacturing have been named in the complaint.

Mr. Hittalamakki, whose house and business premises were raided by the Lokayukta officials last month, blamed the mining lobby for the raid and said that the mining lobby had given a wrong impression of his to the Lokayukta. He said he had been made a scapegoat.

Ankola police are investigating the case.

======end of news=====

We also saw a similar news wherein some 50 trucks containing RDX vanished into thin air. Neither truck driver, nor RDX nor trucks could be traced back.

The same policemen guard EVMs and security staff of BEL is not order of magnitude different.

===

So consider a truck which is taking EVMs from BEL to Collector's office in some district. The journey could be at least a day long. How difficult it is for CIA to bribe the truck driver and guard, and allow four CIA agents to add dishonest display in EVMs? It is trivially easy. So one CIA agent can can get into truck containing say 1000 EVMs and replace display in 2 minutes per EVM = 2000 minutes. Four agents can replace display in 500 minutes = say 10 hours. So BEL can ship honest EVMs, and CIA can convert a big portion of them into dishonest EVMs.

Or better, CIA can send its agents in the warehouse which stores EVMs and get display replaced in the warehouse itself. Or CIA agents can put a cap on memory inside EVMs in warehouse. That cap can be capable of taking candidate number via radio waves, and thus alter the contents of memory after voting ends.

Or much better, if BEL had outsourced the manufacturing of display, CIA can "convince" BEL chief to outsource the display manufacturing to a CIA outfit in India. So no agent needs to be sent to warehouse of truck.

Or better, just replace the chips after lock bits are set. One box will contain about 2000 chips. So by replacing 50 boxes, one can rig 100,000 EVMs.

There are simply too many ways to rig EVMs (dishonest display, putting cap on memory which can candidate number via radio waves, putting chip which favors CandidateNo = (nCandidates mod 5) + 1 and adjusting nCandidates in DC's office) The beauty of all these ways and means is that it needs much much fewer people. In case of paper ballots, one needs at least 2 LOCAL criminals per booth. The leaders dont have 1000s of criminals to spare, and so booth capturing can at worst happen in 500-600 out of 750,000 booths across India. Whereas remote rigging can reach as many 100,000 booths across India.

===

If someone has rigged EVMs in India or Gujarat, it is not Congress nor BJP nor Sonia nor Modi. It is CIA (CIA = covert operations body of MNCs and Christianists). Congress and BJP dont have ability to rig EVMs. And Congress and BJP are too weak to hide the scam. The leaders of BJP, Congress, CPM etc are all cowards and have no courage to pull such a scam. Only CIA is capable of pulling this scam, and only MNCs are capable of controlling media-owners and judges to hide the scam. MNCs today own most media-owners and can tell all media-owners to support EVMs by ridiculing anti-EVM people. And MNCs can also force all HCjs and SCjs to dismiss all petitions against EVMs, and not to issue orders to sell EVMs to public.

So judges, policemen, EC, Sonia, MMS etc have taken a clear stand -- no activist will get an EVM and if he tries to touch and EVM, we will throw him into prison !! Now try proving that displays in existing EVMs are dishonest without touching an EVM !! See, you can prove that displays are dishonest. Hence all the displays are honest !! Hence EVMs cant be rigged !!

(Added later : Last I heard, policemen are summoning employees of Hari Prasad's company and also summing the family members of employees of his company. AFAIT, CEC via IPS is forcing key employees to leave the company so that Hari Prasad gets financially ruined. If this is true, it is important that we citizens expel CEC from his position).
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 19 Oct 2010 09:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 19 Oct 2010 08:50

^ to get an idea on how this is possible, read the article posted today/yesterday on foreclosure scam in USA and how/why the govt would want to keep the scam under wraps.

I can't post the reference from my ifone. I will do that tomorrow or TIA to anyone who does that.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 19 Oct 2010 09:44

On Page-36 of this thread, on Aug-14-2009, I had written
Rahul Mehta wrote:.... Now pro-EVM people have interesting counter-argument. You wont get chip design. You wont get binary. You wont get source code. You wont get PCB design. You cant touch EVM. You cant open EVM. You will be thrown into prison if you steal one EVM and prove that above code exists in EVM. Now, prove that above logic is inside EVM !!


One rarely gets chance to say "see, I said you so", and sadly, my sayings became true. Sadly, Hari Prasad was indeed actually thrown into police custody, because he opened EVM and proved that it is easier to rig 1000s of EVMs than 1000s of paper ballot by putting dishonest displays in factories!! And it is warning to all --- worse will happen if you dare to open EVM and prove that it is easier to hack EVMs than paper.

HP's act of getting (or stealing as EC accuses) EVM was ethical hacking. Further, if CIA is running EVM hacking, then Election Commissioners may be hiding it for bribes. This jeopardizes our elections and our lives. So proving that EVMs are easier to rig than paper ballots is necessary to keep our freedom intact. Thus "stealing" EVM was an act of self defense.

===

Finally, what is the solution to the EVM-mess? The anti-EVM folks have cited and shown several method that show that rigging 1000s of EVMs inside factory or warehouses before of after election is easier than rigging 1000s of paper ballot booth. The pro-EVM folks maintain that processes inside factories and inside various warehouses make it impossible for people to access parts of EVMs. No pro-EVM folk has seen BEL warehouses, DC's warehouses and I bet they have no clue about exact processes BEL follows. Nor do they know if BEL has outsources parts of manufacturing, which would make putting compromised circuits easy.

How honest and vigil is administration, police and courts in general? Some 500,000 tons of iron ore gets stolen. Some Rs 20000 cr of fake stamp papers get sold before people even come to hear. Some 50 trucks of RDX vanish and drivers, trucks and RDX cant be traced. Supreme Court judges openly give bail to +convicted pedophiles in broad day light. Star witness against 25 corrupt judges (Ghaziabad Court's PF scam) commits "suicide" in prison. The endless list of corruption and sloppiness by rank and file keeps growing and even I have now lost interest in updating it. :rotfl: :(( .

So how we decide whether we should continue with EVMs or go back to paper?

I propose we BRites and non-BRites should arm twist PM to issue following Govt Notification

==

1. Any citizen if he wants, can ask District Collector (or his clerk) to put his affidavit on PM's website for Rs 20 per page fee

2. Any citizen can go to patwari's office, show voter card, give Rs fee and register YES/NO on any affidavit filed in clause-1

===

If PM agrees to sign above Govt Notification, and then someone can submit affidavit demanding cancellation of EVMs, and those who hate EVM can then walk to Patwari's office and register YES for Rs 3/- fee. This will atleast give a objective number on lower bound on people who hate EVMs. Once some real information on "number of people who hate EVMs comes", we can talk more sensibly on the thread topic.

Now should we discuss above GN in this thread? Some demand that this thread should be confined to technical issues only. They have no case anymore --- given that EC is imprisoning people who show technical flaws in EVMs. EC has made big part of EVM issue legal, political and non-technical So we must now focus on legal, political aspects of EVM issue as well.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 19 Oct 2010 10:30

Rahul Mehta wrote:If someone has rigged EVMs in India or Gujarat, it is not Congress nor BJP nor Sonia nor Modi. It is CIA (CIA = covert operations body of MNCs and Christianists). Congress and BJP dont have ability to rig EVMs.


You may be right. We don't know if Congress has stopped taking CIA money after 1974. It is not beyond reason that CIA would prefer that party in power, since it was reportedly the USA's preferred Indian government only a generation back.

CIA funded Indira Gandhi govt, claims book by former US envoy

The book also alleges that Congress party took money from the US during Indira's days. Moynihan refers to the then secretary of state Henry Kissinger's meeting with the prime minister saying: "What exactly went on I shall never know, but evidently it went well enough."

Talking of the meeting Moynihan goes on to say: "Turning to CIA he (Kissinger) said that the United States supported the Congress party. (A fact she must know, in the past having taken our money)"

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 19 Oct 2010 19:30

^ RM ji and others,

A humble suggestion!

It may not be in anyone's best interests to use CIA word.

- It gives unnecessary press to CIA (after seeing its successes in Af-Pak and Iraq arena)
- It gives others a reason to divert the discussion in the name of CTs
- It makes the entire Indian system to look like a Banana

We can call it anything we want, but not things like CIA/KGB/FBI etc.,

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Ameet » 20 Oct 2010 13:15

Security of India's electronic voting machines is questioned

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 07602.html

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 22 Oct 2010 08:50

The blessed ones (i.e. those who can read Gujarati) can read the news. The rest can read my partial translation

EVM's magic - press any button , vote goes to BJP !!

http://gujaratsamachar.com/20101022/head/head1.html

====

Press any button, LED next to BJP will blink !!

http://gujaratsamachar.com/20101022/head/head2.html

===

In Vaghodia, in a demonstration, the officer gave 50 votes to BJP and 50 votes to Congress. The machine showed 60 votes to BJP and 40 to Congress !!

http://gujaratsamachar.com/20101022/head/head3.html

====

The returning officer and presiding officer accepted that all votes are going to BJP !!

http://gujaratsamachar.com/20101022/head/head4.html

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raghavendra » 22 Oct 2010 08:55

Transparency Activist, Public Domain Scholar, Legal Blogger, and Imprisoned E-Voting Researcher Win Pioneer Awards http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2010/10/19

EFF to Honor Steven Aftergood, James Boyle, Pamela Jones and Groklaw, and Hari Krishna Prasad Vemuru at San Francisco Ceremony
San Francisco - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is pleased to announce four winners of its 2010 Pioneer Awards: transparency activist Steven Aftergood; public domain scholar James Boyle; legal blogger Pamela Jones and the website Groklaw; and e-voting researcher Hari Krishna Prasad Vemuru, who was recently released on bail after being imprisoned for his security work in India.

The award ceremony will be held at 7:30 p.m., November 8, at the 111 Minna Gallery in San Francisco. Author, blogger, and digital rights activist Cory Doctorow will host. A VIP event with Cory and the Pioneer winners -- as well as EFF founders, board members, and other luminaries -- will begin at 6:30 p.m.

Steven Aftergood directs the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) Project on Government Secrecy, which works to reduce the scope of official secrecy and to promote public access to government information. He writes and edits Secrecy News, an email newsletter and blog that reports on new developments in secrecy and disclosure policy. Secrecy News also provides direct public access to various official records that have been suppressed, withdrawn, or that are simply hard to find. In 1997, Mr. Aftergood was the plaintiff in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the Central Intelligence Agency that successfully led to the declassification and publication of the total intelligence budget for the first time in 50 years.

James Boyle is William Neal Reynolds Professor of Law and co-founder of the Center for the Study of the Public Domain at Duke Law School. Professor Boyle is recognized for his exceptional scholarship on the "second enclosure movement" -- the worldwide expansion of intellectual property rights -- and its threat to the rich public domain of cultural and scientific materials that the Internet might otherwise make available. An original board member of Creative Commons and co-founder of Science Commons, Professor Boyle has worked for over 20 years as both an academic and institution builder to celebrate and protect the values of cultural and scientific openness.

When Pamela Jones created Groklaw in 2003, she envisioned a new kind of participatory journalism and distributed discovery -- a place where programmers and engineers could educate lawyers on technology relevant to legal cases of significance to the Free and Open Source community, and where technologists could learn about how the legal system works. Groklaw quickly became an essential resource for understanding such important legal debates as the SCO-Linux lawsuits, the European Union antitrust case against Microsoft, and whether software should qualify for patent protection.

Hari Krishna Prasad Vemuru is a security researcher in India who recently revealed security flaws in India's paperless electronic voting machines. He has endured jail time, repeated interrogations, and ongoing political harassment to protect an anonymous source that enabled him to conduct the first independent security review of India's electronic voting system. Prasad spent a year trying to convince election officials to complete such a review, but they insisted that the government-made machines were "perfect" and "tamperproof." Instead of blindly accepting the government's claims, Prasad's international team discovered serious flaws that could alter national election results. Months of hot debate have produced a growing consensus that India's electronic voting machines should be scrapped, and Prasad hopes to help his country build a transparent and verifiable voting system.

"These winners have all worked tirelessly to give critical insight and context to the tough questions that arise in our evolving digital world," said EFF Executive Director Shari Steele. "We need strong advocates, educators, and researchers like these to protect our digital rights, and we're proud to honor these four Pioneer Award winners for their important contributions."

Tickets to the Pioneer Awards ceremony are $35 if purchased in advance or $40 at the door. Tickets are available online at http://www.eff.org/pioneerfundraiser. Sponsors of the 2010 Pioneer Awards ceremony include the Computer Electronics Association (CEA), JibJab, and Junk Email Filter.

Awarded every year since 1992, EFF's Pioneer Awards recognize leaders who are extending freedom and innovation on the electronic frontier. Past honorees include World Wide Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee, security expert Bruce Schneier, and the Mozilla Foundation and its chairman Mitchell Baker, among many others.

Pioneer Award candidates are nominated by the public. The winners were chosen by a panel of judges including Kim Alexander (president and founder, California Voter Foundation), Jim Buckmaster (CEO, craigslist), Cory Doctorow (award-winning author and activist), Mitch Kapor (Kapor Capital; co-founder and former chairman EFF), Drazen Pantic (co-director, Location One), Barbara Simons (computer scientist, IBM Research [retired] and former president ACM), and James Tyre (co-founder, The Censorware Project and EFF policy fellow).

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 24 Oct 2010 14:30

From what I heard is that every year, DCs routinely purge EVMs which are 10 years old. These EVMs are destroyed.

So best way to rig EVMs would be to put a hack in 1999, and then activate that hack only May-2009 election. These EVMs will be kept for 1 year after counting, and then, since they are now older than 10 years, they will be destroyed. Hence no traces of proof are left. The hack could have been in display or in chip or in firmware. Now everything is destroyed - ashes to ash.

Also, best place to put "dishonest display" is factory. I am sure that display must have been outsourced to some outside private company. CIA can either convince that factory to implement the hack AFTER testing is over, and it would go unnoticed during assembly. For assembly, very junior staff is used, and they have no clue of what circuit should look like. So if these dishonest displays were placed by CIA in 1999, then these EVMs have now been destroyed and there is no proof left !!

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 25 Oct 2010 06:00

Gujarat Congress finds clue to EVM magic in elections

In a statement Gujarat Congress President Siddhartha Patel today pointed out case of EVM blunder in polling in Padra Nagarpalika. Elections for district and taluka panchayat and nagarpalikas were held in Gujarat today. What is more, he said, local polling officers documented the blunder and changed the EVM when 44 voters were registered by the machine as 111 voters.

In another booth, he said that voting in favour of Congress showed light representing BJP candidate. He has provided to media English version of the report of EVM blunder prepared by the Gujarat government officials.

"EVM has been started today 21.10.10 at polling booth number 6, 2/5 Bhailalbhai Bhaijibhai Patel Gujarati(Tower) Shala Number 2. In the booth 2/5 the EVM was started at 8 am. People voted here. After polling by 44 persons, the machine registered 111 votes.

After this in the polling unit 12311/ 0905 when one presses button for voting, there is light in front of another candidate also. As per the submission of voters, when one polls vote for Congress, there is light on the BJP candidate. This has been seen by Mamlatdar, Election officer and other staff. As a result this unit is changed and another machine has been put. This has been done in the presence of candidates. Signature of the candidates present at the time of the action."

http://www.gujaratglobal.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=38


Congress U-turn: finds fault with EVMs in Gujarat

Today, Congress spokesman Mohan Prakash defended his party’s U-turn on EVMs saying that the BJP allegation was “negative without evidence”, whereas the Congress has “evidence”. According to Prakash, at one polling booth the EVM registered 111 votes for BJP, whereas only 44 people had voted. At another booth, when a voter pressed a button to vote, the light in front of the other candidate’s name came on, he said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/congr ... t/700962/0


Cong may axe spokesperson

The party is also upset at the manner in which Mohan Prakash did not make it clear to the media that the objections to the misuse of the electronic voting machines (EVMs) were limited only to the Gujarat unit and not on an all-India basis.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/ ... person.htm


EVM maker central govt firm BEL denies possibility of rigging - http://deshgujarat.com/2010/10/22/evm-m ... f-rigging/

No re-poll in Padra, votes of ‘faulty’ EVM to be counted - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/no-re ... d/701371/0

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby chetak » 26 Oct 2010 00:20

http://www.asianage.com/india/gujarat-evms-row-bjp-hits-out-cong-820



Gujarat EVMs row: BJP hits out at Cong
Oct 26th, 2010

The BJP on Monday accused the Congress of having a “spoilsport mindset” for alleging that former’s victory in recently held Gujarat local bodies polls was due to tampered EVMs. On the issue of Gujarat local polls results, BJP parliamentary party chief L.K. Advani claimed “The Congress party is the state has been shocked by the results.” Writing on the issue in his blog, he said the results were indication of “decimation of the Congress in Gujarat”.

Attacking the Congress on the EVM issue, the BJP said when it had raised the issue of tampering of EVMs after the Lok Sabha polls, the Congress had rubbished its concern.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Surya » 26 Oct 2010 02:00

From what I heard is that every year, DCs routinely purge EVMs which are 10 years old. These EVMs are destroyed.

So best way to rig EVMs would be to put a hack in 1999, and then activate that hack only May-2009 election.


:P :eek:

Oh so what if it is not an election year. What if an election is pulled forward??

This is starting to get into Alice in wonderland territory.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 26 Oct 2010 08:44

This is starting to get into Alice in wonderland territory.

Starting? Haven't you read the past pages of this thread?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 26 Oct 2010 15:54

From what I heard is that every year, DCs routinely purge EVMs which are 10 years old. These EVMs are destroyed. So best way to rig EVMs would be to put a hack in 1999, and then activate that hack only May-2009 election.


Surya wrote:Oh so what if it is not an election year. What if an election is pulled forward??


How does that matter? If election is pulled forward in 1998, then also one can decide whether he wants to rig or not. Problem will be only if machine becomes obsolete before election comes.

===

Dileep: Starting? Haven't you read the past pages of this thread?


When someone said that "It is impossible for BEL Charmain et al to replace even 10-20 boxes full of CPU chips inside BEL, because BEL is a fortress", the thread had crossed all limits. :shock: That too, I bet that someone has never stepped inside BEL and seen how rigid (or lax) BEL's warehouses are.

==

Dear All,

I have been showing the "EVMs can be easily rigged" video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlCOj1dElDY ) . Almost all said that they have never seen this video on TV !! I myself never watch TV, and so I cant be sure. So I want to ask you all if TV channels have shown above video. If not, this is strange. TV channels are hungry for TRP rating and anything sensational is something they will show again and again till everyone is fed up. In that case, why didnt they show how easy is to fix displays in factory and thus rig 100,000 EVMs?

I do know that TV9-Telugu has aired this video. But except TV9-Telugu, has any channel aired it? What about AajTak, NDTV? I guess RSS too has one TV channel. Has that channel aired this video?


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