Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Virupaksha
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Oct 2010 02:19

Raja Bose wrote:You are mixing up IPR for the board level design with IPR for the ICs. In context of Pranav's post I was referring to IPR for the ICs which have been around for a large number of years (you probably have 6-12 of them around you right now). The IPR for the ICs is not owned by ECIL/BEL and is licensed to them by Microchip etc.. I do not condone the ham fisted approach by ECIL/BEL. In fact, on this thread it was suggested they should simply make the people who wanted to hack the EVM sign an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) and then provide them access - this is a standard practice the world over. Unfortunately such paranoia just provides fodder for the conspiracy theorists.

Does it matter if the stopping block for verifying an EVM is truthful is the IPR is for ICs/ board level design? :roll: Who cares if the IPR block is due to the fan design or of the IPR of how smoothly they cut the board or the colour of a capacitor.

The issue is the EC is blocking ANY meaning full test of the EVM citing IPR/nonsense.
They can have all the IPR they want, but not when it has even a single possible attack through that.

You/ this thread might have suggested 10,000 proper ways. The issue is how many is EC publicly following? According to my reckoning of proper public procedures on last count- exactly 0.

What you/ Dileep/ Rahul Mehta/me say doesnt matter. The only thing that matters is what EC is doing?

You might say "any engineer worth his salt" would follow XYZ procedures. But when I ask Do you EXACTLY know the exact engineer working there is worth whosever salt, all I see instead of yes/no and proofs but answers skipping them with long monologues of some technological marvels.

Yes, they will be rejected because there is nothing novel about the Indian EVM's board level design which has not already been covered by prior art. I am not sure how that seems relevant to you in any way in context of the security aspects of the EVM. :-? Also, do remember that applying for a patent implies it will be made public within 18 months so if they had anything to hide in the design itself, they would not have applied for a patent in the first place and would just classify it as a trade secret (common practice in industry esp. in defence).

is it possible that they withdrew (note they withdrew not rejected) for the exact same reason as mentioned in bold. Now they do not need to make anything public and seemingly not in a rush to do it in the forseeable future.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Oct 2010 02:41

Perhaps you should take the pains to go to the EC and tell them the points that you outlined above instead of ranting here. Otherwise it is just hot air but then the entire BRF is exactly that because regardless of what we say or dream about here, it does not change GoI policy.

The 18 month publication rule is a very well known one even for those who are not patent attorneys - if you really think that BEL/ECIL filed a patent without knowing about it, given they probably file a lot of them each year, I would ask you to put your tin-foil hat on and add patent attorneys to Mehta ji's list of fly-by-night cottage industries!

ravi_ku wrote:Does it matter if the stopping block for verifying an EVM is truthful is the IPR is for ICs/ board level design?


Yes, it does because we have still these little things called laws. However, like I already mentioned it is standard practice to use NDAs in such cases. Perhaps you can convince the EC to use NDAs and allow access which is what should have been done and should be done.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Oct 2010 02:48

so it is now back to good old targeting people personally. :roll: Good please carry on with your "excellent" defence of EVM.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ArmenT » 28 Oct 2010 08:10

Personally, I would like to see the whole design freely documented, without any need to sign an NDA. If Indian citizens are the ones paying the EC's salary, they should demand that the people of India own the copyrights to the machines and therefore every citizen should have access to the design.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Oct 2010 08:15

^^Try selling that to our paranoid babooze for whom the number of pencils used by the Defence Ministry was once considered a national secret! (no kidding)

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Oct 2010 08:16

ravi_ku wrote:so it is now back to good old targeting people personally. :roll: Good please carry on with your "excellent" defence of EVM.


Exactly where have you been targeted - please point out. As for the manner of your post, yes it was a rant of type "Why doesn't somebody do something".

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 28 Oct 2010 08:59

Dear Audience,

At many points, "out of context" lines from my posts may show that I am accusing BEL chief, CEC, PM, Congress Chief etc of tempering EVMs. Let me clarify the context

1. My central claim is that rigging 100000 EVMs is easier than rigging 1000 paper ballot booths, iff 10-15 people at top decide to sell out or are forced to bow down or both.

2. Question comes, HOW? Given that candidate number is given just 7-14 days before poll, and EVMs reach DC office some 5 months to 10 years before poll, how can one tell candidate number to 100,000 EVMs.

3. To answer how, I have proposed some separate ways. Some ways involve BEL chief and/or BEL warehouse-keeper etc.

Hence there is no direct allegation on anyone (as of yet).

====

Re : use of CIA

Western elite is octopus, and CIA, US Military, USG, Christianists Missionaries, MNC Executives, ISI are arms of that octopus. Each arm does a specialized task. eg if a TV channel owner is to be asked not to show anti-EVM video, Western elitemen will use MNC executive to do this job. If Western elitemen want to win hearts of people, Christianists will be asked to open hospitals. And all covert operations go to CIA. Now why do I say that CIA rigged EVMs? I dont. What I am saying is that : if someone rigged EVMs, it is CIA only. Because Congress, BJP dont have technical skills and managerial strength to pull this trick. And they dont have strength to stop mediamen from exposing it. Only CIA has managerial skills to plant trojan in chip and replace 100000 displays. And only MNCs have strength to stop NDTV etc from airing anti-EVM video. And given that Congress and BJP are two giant weaklings, I dont want to blame them of rigging EVMs.

=====

Back to ways EVMs can be rigged : Displays can be changed in trucks

EVMs are manufactured in BEL and from BEL a truck goes to DC's office in respective districts. One truck will carry 100-500 EVMs, and one truck may be supplying EVMs to 1-5 Districts. Now as per some claims, BEL did use private trucks to send EVMs. If private trucks were used, it is not difficult for CIA to convince BEL's EVM's in-charge to use trucks of CIA-owned private company. And even if GoI-owned trucking company was used, CIA has many islamists/christianists who would work to ruin India for free and CIA can manage to get them placed at key points in GoI-owned trucking companies. Now truck would take 1-2 days from BEL to reach districts. That is enough time to change the real display and put a dishonest display. So is it difficult for CIA to change displays in truck? In a country, where 50 trucks full of RDX vanish with RDX and drivers, and where 600,000 tonnes of iron ore gets stolen, how difficult is accessing getting into a truck and changing displays of EVMs? IMO, CIA agents can do that with eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back. Do you know of any "process" will secure the 1000s trucks spread all across India?

Say out of 800,000 EVMs used in May-2009 elections, many EVMs were changed in trucks by CIA. And of the EVMs which were used in May-2009 election, but became older than 10 years as on on May-2010 may now have been destroyed along with their rigged display.

To touch EVMs, you will need Supreme Court judges' order. As per eminent lawyer Shanti Bhuashan, at least 50% of SC-Cjs have been corrupt !! So good luck getting order from SCjs to examine evidence. Next, the committee SCjs will form, if at all they form, may (or shall?) consist of corrupt, and so they may (or shall) only select honest EVMs. So if anyone wants to "investigate" this matter, Happy Investigation !!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 01 Nov 2010 10:05

Lets look at P Chidambaram's final relsults

Code: Select all

Total votes polled = 775,253
CHIDAMBARAM P    Congress  334,348   
RAJA KANNAPPAN   AIADMK    330,994   
BARWATHA REGINA  DMDK       60,054
Others                      49,857   

Now read
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ch ... ts_1256495 and
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 540046.cms

In first count, PC lost by 3300 votes
In next recount, PC won by 3000 votes

Difference of 6300 votes or 0.8% of total polled votes or about 1.8% of votes of PC got.

===

Can someone get more details on whether EVMs in second recount showed SAME results and it was just a total mistake or did EVMs in second round showed different results? If EVMs showed different results, how many EVMs showed different results? Chawala did not give booth wise counts, because boothwise counts can exposed rigging easily. But still, if someone has any insider info, please do post it.

==

This may hint towards dishonest displays. In first count, EVM displays were told to give say 10% extra votes to PC and yet PC lost. In next round, EVM displays were told to give say 12% extra votes to PC and so PC won. Otherwise, if EVMs were giving same data, then this total mistake is too large. Even in one round, totals are done several times by at least 2-3 people before next round starts. Such large total mistake is not possible.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vijayk » 02 Nov 2010 22:59

Rahul Mehta wrote:Lets look at P Chidambaram's final relsults

Code: Select all

Total votes polled = 775,253
CHIDAMBARAM P    Congress  334,348   
RAJA KANNAPPAN   AIADMK    330,994   
BARWATHA REGINA  DMDK       60,054
Others                      49,857   

Now read
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ch ... ts_1256495 and
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 540046.cms

In first count, PC lost by 3300 votes
In next recount, PC won by 3000 votes

Difference of 6300 votes or 0.8% of total polled votes or about 1.8% of votes of PC got.

===

Can someone get more details on whether EVMs in second recount showed SAME results and it was just a total mistake or did EVMs in second round showed different results? If EVMs showed different results, how many EVMs showed different results? Chawala did not give booth wise counts, because boothwise counts can exposed rigging easily. But still, if someone has any insider info, please do post it.

==

This may hint towards dishonest displays. In first count, EVM displays were told to give say 10% extra votes to PC and yet PC lost. In next round, EVM displays were told to give say 12% extra votes to PC and so PC won. Otherwise, if EVMs were giving same data, then this total mistake is too large. Even in one round, totals are done several times by at least 2-3 people before next round starts. Such large total mistake is not possible.


How can a recount of EVM result in different votes? Is this a sick joke? The press, the courts, the EC and all are a big joke. :((

We place our trust on this technology to make or break our democracy! :oops: :roll:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Nandu » 02 Nov 2010 23:17

Just got this email, from Stanford.



SPECIAL SEMINAR

Hari Prasad Vemuri, Indian Electronic Voting Machine Hacker

Electronic Voting Machines in India

Gates Building 463a (theory area in 4th floor B wing)
Wednesday, Nov. 3.
4 PM

Indian researcher Hari Prasad will be visiting to talk about his
experiences as a researcher and activist opposing the use of
electronic voting machines (EVMs) in India.

Hari, with colleagues Alex Halderman (Assistant Professor at U. of
Michigan) and Rop Gonggrijp demonstrated that Indian EVMs could be
easily hacked (see this video). As
a result, he was arrested by the government for stealing the voting
machine. Hari is in the Bay Area to receive a "Pioneer Award" from
the Electronic Frontier Foundation on Nov. 8 for this work (he is out
on bail). This talk may be his only opportunity to visit
Stanford.

Hari will be accompanied by Alex Halderman, an Assistant Professor of
Computer Science at the University of Michigan and researcher in
computer security and electronic voting. Alex is well-known for his
past feats hacking voting machines in the U.S., starting when he was a
student of Ed Felten at Princeton.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby saket » 03 Nov 2010 04:18

Rahul Mehta wrote:Lets look at P Chidambaram's final relsults

Code: Select all

Total votes polled = 775,253
CHIDAMBARAM P    Congress  334,348   
RAJA KANNAPPAN   AIADMK    330,994   
BARWATHA REGINA  DMDK       60,054
Others                      49,857   

Now read
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ch ... ts_1256495 and
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 540046.cms

In first count, PC lost by 3300 votes
In next recount, PC won by 3000 votes

Difference of 6300 votes or 0.8% of total polled votes or about 1.8% of votes of PC got.

===

Can someone get more details on whether EVMs in second recount showed SAME results and it was just a total mistake or did EVMs in second round showed different results? If EVMs showed different results, how many EVMs showed different results? Chawala did not give booth wise counts, because boothwise counts can exposed rigging easily. But still, if someone has any insider info, please do post it.

==

This may hint towards dishonest displays. In first count, EVM displays were told to give say 10% extra votes to PC and yet PC lost. In next round, EVM displays were told to give say 12% extra votes to PC and so PC won. Otherwise, if EVMs were giving same data, then this total mistake is too large. Even in one round, totals are done several times by at least 2-3 people before next round starts. Such large total mistake is not possible.
This wasnt the only one. Maneka Gandhi also won after a recount .. she had lost initially.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 03 Nov 2010 04:46

Nandu wrote:Just got this email, from Stanford.



SPECIAL SEMINAR

Hari Prasad Vemuri, Indian Electronic Voting Machine Hacker

Electronic Voting Machines in India

Gates Building 463a (theory area in 4th floor B wing)
Wednesday, Nov. 3.
4 PM

Indian researcher Hari Prasad will be visiting to talk about his
experiences as a researcher and activist opposing the use of
electronic voting machines (EVMs) in India.

Hari, with colleagues Alex Halderman (Assistant Professor at U. of
Michigan) and Rop Gonggrijp demonstrated that Indian EVMs could be
easily hacked (see this video). As
a result, he was arrested by the government for stealing the voting
machine. Hari is in the Bay Area to receive a "Pioneer Award" from
the Electronic Frontier Foundation on Nov. 8 for this work (he is out
on bail). This talk may be his only opportunity to visit
Stanford.

Hari will be accompanied by Alex Halderman, an Assistant Professor of
Computer Science at the University of Michigan and researcher in
computer security and electronic voting. Alex is well-known for his
past feats hacking voting machines in the U.S., starting when he was a
student of Ed Felten at Princeton.


Can you please post the e-mail in full in case it contains any further details re. registration for the talk etc.? If possible, might land up there.
Thanx.

Nandu
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Nandu » 03 Nov 2010 05:28

That is the full email. I've only withheld the name of the sender. AFAIK, you shouldn't need any special access to just show up at Gates 463a at the given time.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 03 Nov 2010 07:44

Lets see if I can play hooky :wink:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 03 Nov 2010 09:14

Saket,

Thanks for information that Manka Gandhi won after recount

Here are some info

http://www.topnews.in/maneka-gandhi-win ... ng-2167580

Aonla, May 16 : Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader and former Union Minister Maneka Gandhi has won the Aonla Parliamentary constituency after re-counting. Earlier, Maneka Gandhi was declared to have lost by 22,000 votes to her rival Dharmendra Kashyap of the Samajwadi Party (SP).


Here is the final tally from EC's website

Code: Select all

Total votes   =  704,522
MENKA GANDHI           BJP    216,503
DHARMENDRA KUMAR       SP     208,822
KUNWAR SARVRAJ SINGH   BSP    174,353
MEHBOOB AHMAD KHAN     MD      56,233
TIKA RAM SAHU          CPI     14,072
    OTHERS                     34,539


So in first round, Maneka Gandhi loses by about 22,000, as the news says. Later she wins by about 7600 votes as EC's website says. So recount creates a difference of 22000 + 7600 = about 29000 to 30000 votes. Total polled voted = about 700,000. So recount creates a difference of 4 % of total polled votes !! And it creates a difference of about 30000/216000 = 13% in the votes Maneka Gandhi got !!!

Did EVMs gave SAME results in recount? If yes, error of 4% in addition is impossible. Such difference of 30000 votes (4% of total votes) was unheard in paper ballot days. During each round of counting, EVM vote is noted by one Govt office and one counting agent on the table. The addition is done by twice by two GoI officers. And next round comes when totals of GoI officers are EXACTLY the same - not even difference of one vote. And each candidate too can have agents to do the counts. We see that Anola had 4 heavyweight candidates, and each must have had an agent. So many people cant get additions wrong. So did EVMs report different numbers during recount? How is that possible, unless someone with remote was instructing EVMs to adjust numbers?

Menka Gandhi is anti-Swadeshi and pro-MNC, and so even though she is in BJP. Using environment etc as cause, she has been useful in blocking Indian industrialists from setting up industry, till they give some stake to MNCs. Many see her as MNC mole in BJP. So if CIA ( = MNCs) had control over display of EVMs, then surely, they would help Menka win the elections.

====

Navjot Sadhu too had lost in first round, and then later won by 6800 votes (0.8% of total votes) after recount. Sadly, CEC did not gave out EVM-wise data.

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Postby ArmenT » 03 Nov 2010 10:06

Not strictly related to Indian EVM, but interesting TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_bismark_e_voting_without_fraud.html

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 03 Nov 2010 17:16

Can't this simple factor of 'votes dont tally up in case of recount', it self be taken as an issue for analysing whether the system is faulty? Yes, there could be umpteen technical ways to make EVMs go crazy, but most of the people are not tech-savvy and may just ignore any news on these aspects. When people are not bothered Election Commission can also give some silly reason and move away from the issue.

Have any political party or politician challenged the EVMs on this simple fact? That they can generate a few 100 votes magically. We have got evidence from the Election Commission web site itself.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Nandu » 04 Nov 2010 07:22

Any luck Raja Bose? I couldn't go.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 06 Nov 2010 09:31

Unfortunately no-go here. I was on campus during that time but in a room with old fossils.

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Re:

Postby Pranav » 17 Nov 2010 08:34

ArmenT wrote:Not strictly related to Indian EVM, but interesting TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_bismark_e_voting_without_fraud.html


Hmm ... took a look.

In that system, there is nothing that protects against fraudulent excess ballots, nor is there any way for the voter to check that the counting is being done correctly.

I don't see what that system achieves.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 20 Nov 2010 22:01

We need to see the differentiation between actual exit polls versus studies. The Exit polls seems reasonable. If the final outcome is inline with the exit polls then I consider the polls are fair. If the final outcome matches CNN-IBN number of 200+ NDA then this time I am going to take a stand that polls are absolutely manipulated using the EVMs. I will even go on to say that the news are planted ahead to justify the outcome. Let us see what happen on 24th.

The members here may question that why give Nitish a majority when Congress can manipulate to win?. It is very simple as outlined by Shri Hariprasad. The EVMs are riggable and if INC with 3% to 5% vote share has to win the election in Bihar it needs to rig every available EVM which is not practical. However, if it rigs in favor of Nitish to seperate him out of NDA that is a better bet.

Summary again - If NDA gets 180+ then a section of booths in Yadav and Muslim strongholds are rigged. If NDA gets 120-150 then the election is fair. If it gets 160-180 then very few booths are rigged. NDA losing is definitely out of question and it will be an extreme thing to even analyze.


Exit Polls of Bihar


Exit polls at the final phase of the Bihar Assembly elections today predicted a clear victory for the JD(U)-BJP combine.

While the CNN-IBN-The Week post poll study projected that the JD(U)-BJP alliance will sweep the polls with 185-201 seats, a Star AC Nielson exit poll predicted that Nitish Kumar-led NDA will get 150 seats.

An exit poll, conducted by CVoter, projected JD(U)-BJP combine coming back to power in Bihar. It said the combine will get 142-54 seats.


The CNN-IBN-The Week post poll study projection claimed that NDA will emerge victorious with 185-201 seats out of the total 243 assembly seats.

The CNN-IBN-The Week post poll study projected JD (U)-BJP combine emerging as the single largest alliance in Bihar with 46% vote share in its kitty followed by RJD-LJP alliance at a distant 27% and Congress at merely 9%t as the sixth and final final phase of polling comes to an end.

The Lalu Prasad-led RJD-LJP alliance was predicted to be gaining 22-32 seats while Congress gain between 6-12 seats. Independents, Left parties and others will end up with 9-19 seats, the CNN-IBN-The Week post poll study projected.

Star AC Nielson exit poll predicted that RJD-LJP combine will get 57 seats out of a total 243 with a loss of seven while Congress will stood at 15 and others at 21.

CVoter exit poll projected that RJD-LJP alliance will remain at a distant second to NDA with their tally ranging between 59 and 71 while Congress coming in third place will get 12-18 seats.

According to the CNN-IBN-The Week exit poll, JD (U) chief Nitish Kumar was way ahead of his rivals in popularity as the chief minister of the state.

Nitish kumar was preferred as the Chief Minister by 54 per cent of voters as the man in the top office for a consecutive second term while Lalu-Rabri remained far behind him with only 28% preferring "either of them", the exit poll claimed.

Nitish Kumar's popularity has been increasing over last few years since 2004 reaching at all time high with 60 per cent in 2009.

However, Rabri Devi-Lalu Prasad as the choice for the post of chief minister has not changed significantly in all these years and has stayed between 25-30% as it was in the past, the study claimed.

The post poll study claimed that not only Kumar but his government too was riding a high in its popularity in Bihar with 60% of voters suggesting that they want his government for a second term in the state.

20% of voters, however, wanted a change in government of the state.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 20 Nov 2010 23:24

^ I would cry wolf if Nitish gets simple majority on his own. Imagine a scenario where JDU gets 123-130 seats and BJP gets 50-60 seats. That would be a receipe for disaster for both Nitish and BJP. Gives false sense of power to Nitish and he can go alone next time, leading to his eventual failure.

Hope good sense prevails.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 21 Nov 2010 04:17

^ The politicsparty guy confirms my fears :(( :(( :((

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 25 Nov 2010 16:27

So, I take it EVMs were beyond reproach in the Bihar elections? :(( :P :twisted:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 25 Nov 2010 22:40

I may be in minority but I think EVMs are tampered in Bihar elections. BJP supporters are just escatic that 91/102 but not understanding there may be a lemon in it. As I said after Hariprasad's revelation, in a multi-party system where a candidate does not need 50% of votes polled to win - you only need to do certain (not more than 4% ) selected booths.

Regarding Bihar - it is a well known conclusion that NDA will win. All the exit polls predicted 170-175 for NDA. Only the post poll "research" by CNN-IBN predicted that NDA will get 200+. Even in that prediction, they did not give BJP such a large number. The media's thoery was that Nitish can go alone and ditch BJP. One has to watch Bharka's unhapinees on NDTV when BJP's gain is more than Nitish's gain.

I say an attempt has been made to make Nitish alone gets comfortable majority.

EVM issues and problems are not solved. EC has to do a better job than what they did so far.

Here is my wildest theory:
Under the circumstances based on prior surveys, INC may have concluded that Bihar is not in their reach. However, it is in the interest of Congress party if Nitish could become independent either with their help or not. However, they definitely did not want Laloo to have any voice. Their best bet would be JDU-110, INC - 15, BJP -75 and rest does not matter. However it ended up JDU-115, BJP-91, INC-4. This is okay too but not that okay. BJP lost five more by less than 300 votes and imagine 96/102.

Couple of theories:
(1) INC wants to bring back credibility to EVMs so that the entire political setup does not jump on them so that there will be no room in future. Capturing 2014 is more important than stupid BJP's victory in Bihar. Biahr is not Maharastra or AP anyway.
(2) BJP got handle on the EVM tampering side and they are doing their own.

I have a feeling that (2) may have happened. I just cannot imagine Muslim voteshare more for BJP than even JDU or RJD or INC. Earlier indications based on available calculation are pointing that way. What is that BJP did to Muslims that they will forget everthing and vote to BJP? Another added pointer is in Gujarat municipal and panchayat elections where certain constituencies that has muslim majority are won by BJP. Again how in the world that can happen.

Important factor - INC folks in Gujarat actually alleged that Modi tampered EVMs. The central INC folks has fired/shut down that argument/folks coming from INC folks. For them EVMs are probably key to their 2014 bid.

Now BJP's methodology. It does not have and will not have handle as much as INC has across the country. To me it looks like their strategy is to make the rigging very obvious so that all the junk parties will fight and it can sit quite passively without involving. Hence the largescale victories in Muslim strongholds will put them strategically in that direction.

Just see this http://eciresults.nic.in/ConstituencywiseS0456.htm
How in the world that happened.

:) 8)

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby niran » 25 Nov 2010 23:01

Muppalla wrote:How in the world that happened.

simple people voted that way, i cannot say about whole of Bihar but about Gopalganj,Siwan, Chapara, Aarah,
all results were according to the expectation/calculations. yes i agree tampering is possible, but practically it is impossible.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 25 Nov 2010 23:02

Muppalla wrote: I just cannot imagine Muslim voteshare more for BJP than even JDU or RJD or INC. Earlier indications based on available calculation are pointing that way. What is that BJP did to Muslims that they will forget everthing and vote to BJP? Another added pointer is in Gujarat municipal and panchayat elections where certain constituencies that has muslim majority are won by BJP. Again how in the world that can happen.


I am not in a position to speculate on EVM role in these (or any other) elections except that as long as they are vulnerable for tampering and cannot offer a verifyiable audit mechanism, I do not put my trust in them.

I think the Muslim community voting for BJP candidates has to be seen from different perspective -
* Them voting for a BJP-muslim candidate Vs other muslim candidates
* Them voting for a BJP-muslim candidate Vs other non-muslim candidates
* Them voting for a BJP-non-muslim candidate Vs other muslim candidates.

In the above scenario,
- The BJP muslim candidate got 57,774 votes against 59,056 muslim votes polled for all other muslim candidates.
- Muslim candidates got 116,830 votes (5 candidates across all parties) compared to 7,867 votes won by 3 non-muslim candidates.
- Top 2 muslim candidates (BJP and INC) got 78% of all polled votes.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 25 Nov 2010 23:15

niran wrote:simple people voted that way, i cannot say about whole of Bihar but about Gopalganj,Siwan, Chapara, Aarah,
all results were according to the expectation/calculations. yes i agree tampering is possible, but practically it is impossible.


I honestly think that the highlighted line should be takenout atleast after all the discussion. Shri Hariprasad has given a demonstration. I again reiterate that tampering doesn't need to be extensive. It is actually needed in certain selected booths to change the result. The survey are happening based on ethinic, religious and demographic basis. Several professional agencies are involved in election surveys. The Gods have access to basic data and also survey data to get an idea of to-be-targeted booths.

It is a big myth that it is practically impossible. It is proven and hence it is possible.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby niran » 25 Nov 2010 23:43

okie zee, i give up and agree EVM has been tampered with, but a small confusion still remains, why do you think
commons(gobhiright RM) particularly from the minority religion will not have voted for BJP? mucho earlier when Nitish was
Laalo Right hand, then they had MY(Muslim Yadav) support as the main pillar, later Nitish succeeded in graping some of those votes during 2005-2006
and this time he seems to have completely broken this pillar for Laalo/Paswan

another point is why would INC managed a measly 4 seats, when RG future PM was himself was in charge, they should have at least 20-25 seats.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 25 Nov 2010 23:58

niran, I again reiterate as I wrote above - "it is a wild theory". :)

My only serious point is if there is away to tamper they will just do it unless the holes are closed. As the holes are not closed I suspect it happened. I don't go by myths nor the other RM/Pranav ways in this thread. I did not even believed unless demoed by Hariprasad.

Now since you asked why INC got measly four seats. See my second point. BJP also got a hold on it. INC is trying to make Nitish the independent king. See the share of Yadav seats. Laloo only got 45% of seats there (per CNN-IBN graphic during the results show). INC plan is to reduce Laloo to street kid. So it has to do in the Yadav strongholds. For BJP it has to be positioned competetively with Nitish otherwise Nitish will do a Naveen act. It started cutting off INC and RJD limbs in Muslim stronghold. Infact if you go by traditional logic, in Muslim strongholds generally there will be a polarization towards BJP. In such a situation just rig few booths where only Muslims vote for a sure shot win. In the end both INC and BJP together killed Laloo and INC respectively.

Again I want to reiterate that NDA's win here is forgone conclusion even before the elections are declared. It needs very little push to get the current result. Even during papar ballot based booth capturing days also the scenario would be same.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 26 Nov 2010 06:19

Biggest landslide with smallest share of votes

To put the apparent surge in favour of the Nitish-led alliance in perspective, its vote share in the latest elections was barely 2.9% higher than in the 2005 assembly polls, up from 36.2% to 39.1%. Creditable as it is for an incumbent government, that is hardly the kind of swing that would normally deliver such a huge swing in terms of seats.


This lends credence to the EVM manipulation theory, although the INC was the very visible joker in the pack in that it split votes that would otherwise have gone to Lalu. In comparison, BJP got 49% of the vote in Gujarat in 2007, yet was nowhere close to a 2/3rd majority.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 26 Nov 2010 14:39

If 39% votes can get 85% seats, then voters must have voted very strategically. So strategic, that it is unlikely to occur naturally. Is there any officially data on EVM-wise i.e. boothwise voting? Or is that also kept confidential as if it was some national secret?

===

RamaY wrote:^ I would cry wolf if Nitish gets simple majority on his own. Imagine a scenario where JDU gets 123-130 seats and BJP gets 50-60 seats.


Nitish got close to simple majority on his own. BJP's tally increased, but media has ensured that ALL credit goes to Nitish and none to Sushil Modi and BJP.

====

EVMs are manipulated by CIA (for MNCs, Christianists). But they would not dare to swap more than 10% of polled votes. So there is no way MNCs, Christianists could have made Congress win Bihar election, as congress lags behind too much. So next best option is Nitish. Christianists want to project Nitish as next non-Congress PM (in case Congress becomes highly unacceptable to most Indians) as a hedge against NaMo. And look what EVMs plus media achieved. Till yesterday, NaMo was no.1 non-Congress PM candidate. Today, thanks to EVMs and media, Nitish is no. 1 non-Congress PM candidate. EVMs got 85% seats to JDU+, and media ensured that all credits go to Nitish and none to Sushil Modi and BJP.

===

Muppalla wrote:.... BJP also got a hold on it.


BJP doesnt have technical and field capability to rig 10% or even 5% of EVMs. BJP people are morons, and if one them rigs EVMs, his rival inside BJP would expose him before Congress or media does. Congress has bigger morons and more infighting. If anyone is rigging EVMs, it is CIA and no one else. Only CIA has capability to rig EVMs at such large scale in unnoticeable way. And only MNCs can suppress news of how easy it is to rig EVMs. Can you explain why TRP-hungry channels dont show HVKP's video? (spare Etv-Telugu. Only MNCs have so much control over TV channels that they can block this sensational TRP-magnet video. BJP or Congress dont have strength to block this video. As long as EVMs stay, elections will get manipulate to suit interest of Christianists, MNCs.
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 26 Nov 2010 15:48, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 26 Nov 2010 15:17

Dileep wrote:
1. The 'dishonest display' is indeed a new vector, that we hadn't thought about originally. It definitely has a lower threshold of resistance than the other schemes, especially since ECIL has stupidly decided to use sockets for the cable.

2. However, this too depend upon beating the checks and balances established by the EC. Someone needs to access the systems, open them and replace the LED Boards. There is the issue of channeling the modified machines to the right constituency, and activating the process at the counting station.


1. How do you know decision was stupid and not deliberate? You spoke of peer review of design by experts etc. How could experts ignore that if display is not welded but simply bolted, it can be removed by anyone with knowhow and access to EVMs? Chances are high that CIA infiltrated the HW design unit and ensured that displays are bolted and not welded. Then in the truck from ECIL to Collector's office, CIA men changed the display.

2. What checks and balances are employed (or can possibly be employed) when a truck full of EVMs go from ECIL to District Collector's office 1000 km away? Does ECIL send 100 policemen to guard that truck, with chopper hovering it and video tape the whole delivery? Are these EVMs treated like pieces of plutonium during the delivery? For all I know, CIA can bribe the logistics in-charge in ECIL, and ensure that CIA-owned company gets the trucking contract. And in 1-3 day journey, they can replace displays of all EVMs inside the truck. So much for checks and balances, and other buzzwords.

Transparency, checks, balances, accountability, auditing, certifications .... all the buzzwords on world dont change simple fact that rigging EVMs is easier than rigging paper ballots.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rupesh » 26 Nov 2010 15:37

^^^
OT
You might consider reading " The Chosen One" by Sam Bourne

The final conspiracy is actually a pretty interesting idea, even if it is plugged into one of the US’s deepest political fears: the influence of moneymen and puppet-masters behind the scenes of power. (don’t worry, this isn’t really a spoiler)


“Have you never thought about how the great political leaders made it to the top?... Have you never noticed how smooth their path was? How the luck always seemed to go their way?… There are no accidents... There is no luck. There was a pattern to all those events. There always has been and there always will be.”

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 04 Dec 2010 08:29

25 EVMs are missing in Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh.

They were picked by Rag Pickers as the windows to the storing room were left open, and were sold to a local junk collector.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RamaY » 06 Dec 2010 00:44

Another paper Andhrajyothy says that 4000 EVMs are missing....

This site is made a paid site, so can't check details...

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Avinash R » 06 Dec 2010 08:48

RamaY wrote:Another paper Andhrajyothy says that 4000 EVMs are missing....

This site is made a paid site, so can't check details...


Another source confirms the news
EVMs go missing in AP Revenue Office

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 06 Dec 2010 09:36

Another source confirms the news
EVMs go missing in AP Revenue Office


Where are those said that Collector's office is a fortress and no one can sneak in and replace parts of even one EVM ; or take even one EVM out replace parts and put it back? The pro-EVM people were claiming strong rooms, constant 24*7 video survellience blah blah ...

Suffices to say that the missing EVMs were all rigged EVMs, and when story of rigging came out, CIA via its agent YSR got them stolen, so that no rigged EVM can be found and proved. Now pro-EVM can merrily claim that all missing EVMs too were unrigged, and ask us anti-EVM folks to prove that missing EVMs were rigged.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 07 Dec 2010 06:53

8) 8) 8)

Bihar: Congress for Probe into 'Tampering' of EVMs

Bihar state Congress today said the Election Commission should order a high-level inquiry into the complaints of tampering and hacking of Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs) in the just-concluded assembly elections in the state.

"A high-level inquiry into the complaints of tampering and hacking of EVMs by a team comprising officials of the Commission and IT experts should be conducted at the earliest," party's media cell Chairman Prem Chandra Mishra said here.

He, however, said his intention was not not to raise a question mark on the EC, but if there was any doubt among the masses, it should be addressed.

Mishra said several of his party nominees had lodged such complaints.



I ask the members to read my post above again and again. The fight is now in the enemy's land. Let us see whether the government puts an end or will just go ahead with the same game. For future of INC EVMs are the central strategy. However, the problems is other also may have got handle now. The biggest ones may be who has handle on them are out of congress in AP.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Hari Seldon » 07 Dec 2010 07:00

Rajeev srinivasan tweet:
http://twitter.com/#!/RajeevSrinivasa
4000 EVMs missing? and the ECI persecuted prasad for 'borrowing' one! were the 'missing' ones used in close races? http://bit.ly/fM9dWm


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