Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Muppalla
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 09 Jul 2009 07:19

Oh man - Rajgopal was telling from the day one ( even before polls) that INC will win 33 seats in AP and INC did win exactly 33 seats. However, I will not beleive that his company has anything to do with EVM software until confirmed.

If the software is really outsourced to some third parties and not ECIL/BEL as alleged then this election is settled not in India but in countires where they like this setup. :(

For a paranoid - India gained independence on Aug 1947 and lost it again in 2009.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 09 Jul 2009 07:38

RayC wrote:The Communists tried to intimidate me once and I told them to clear off if they wanted their heads intact!

That is because you are a jernail.

OK, the whole crowd of heavyweights have now put their weight on this issue. I am sure they are going to use all their men and all their horses to find any trace of fraud. You know the tenacity and the capability of the players involved.

Now, if the FAIL to find any fraud, would the whiners and conspiracy theorists agree that the EVMS are fine?

If they find a fraud where the software was modified, either in the field, or at the factory at the time of manufacturing, I will take the print out of EVERY PAGE of this thread, and EAT IT. I will post the video on youtube for all of you to see, unless you travel to DMA to watch it in person.

Would the chicken littles do the same if no fraud was found?

kvraghav
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kvraghav » 09 Jul 2009 11:49

Hi,
Is this sequence right?

Maintainance->Loksabha polls->Maintainance->ByPolls

This is for discussion elsewhere.Please help.
B/W if Shibu Soren is IMPRISONED in his seceratary murder case,i will eat all available paper and post it on youtube too.. :D

RayC
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RayC » 09 Jul 2009 12:07

Dileep wrote:
RayC wrote:The Communists tried to intimidate me once and I told them to clear off if they wanted their heads intact!

That is because you are a jernail.

OK, the whole crowd of heavyweights have now put their weight on this issue. I am sure they are going to use all their men and all their horses to find any trace of fraud. You know the tenacity and the capability of the players involved.

Now, if the FAIL to find any fraud, would the whiners and conspiracy theorists agree that the EVMS are fine?

If they find a fraud where the software was modified, either in the field, or at the factory at the time of manufacturing, I will take the print out of EVERY PAGE of this thread, and EAT IT. I will post the video on youtube for all of you to see, unless you travel to DMA to watch it in person.

Would the chicken littles do the same if no fraud was found?



I was on leave and in civvies and none knew who I was!

It matters not whether the EVMs can be rigged.

Caesar's wife must be above suspicion.

Tanaji
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 09 Jul 2009 13:29

To start with,

1. Have open EVM? Have you checked the source code?
2. Do you know any one who has gone thru EVM's source code?
3. Can you get me the EVM so that I can check the source code? Will pay the (reasonable) cost.


Let me answer the questions. You wont get me an EVM. You never checked EVM. You dont know anyone who checked EVM. EVM is not available to any third party at cost price so that he can verify. And yet you believe that EVMs are 100% safe !!


My, my, such insistence on checking source codes... Tell me, do you think the EC uses computers to do the final tally from various ballot boxes? Do you use a computer to do financial transactions? Have you checked the Windows source code? You seem to be okay with using a platform that is untrusted in terms of source code in situations where there is direct loss to you, and when EC uses it even when using a paper ballot (or even if they use calculators, no one has checked the firmware of a calculator). Interesting.

That being said, I think there should be a formal audit of the EVM firmware, problem is it will not satisfy the likes of you that have an agenda.

<Rahul Mehta logic on>
Mehtaji, you still have not posted any proof whatsoever that disproves that paper ballot supporters like you personally stand to gain Rs. 1 crore at least hence your resistance to EVMs!
<Rahul Mehta logic off>

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Viv Sreenivasan » 09 Jul 2009 13:36

Sachin in my post i said the ballot papers should be dispatched as soon as it is practicable before the election. It might take even a couple of weeks to dispatch ballot papers to 25 odd constituenceis. All that needs to be done is make sure that EVMs are assigned to particular constituencies.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 09 Jul 2009 13:42

Viv Sreenivasan wrote:Voters in those 25 or whatever number constituencies will have to vote twice once on the machine and once on the ballot paper. Then if there is a big discrepancy between the two (barring a few mistakes here and there) you can be pretty sure fraud is going on. If there is fraud in EVMs this method will pick it up clearly. What do you guys think?

This might not work out. Because the agency sending the ballot papers and the agency sending the EVMs are one and the same. So when they decide which constituency should have both EVM and and ballot paper, they can as well as send EVMs which will perfectly. Election Commission is an indepedent agency, and as of now only they are to decide policies/dates on elections etc. More than the device (EVM), I feel we need to worry about the people who hold important positions in the Election Commission.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 09 Jul 2009 22:31

All this hoohaa about checking of software....why no hulla about checking of hw (esp. PCB) or are the board manufacturers certified patriots? :twisted: Some fellas from chipzilla had some interesting examples of these...dont know if they ever published it in any xxCon or journal or rag but you can do plenty with systems which are hardware centric with primitive firmware. They were all doable but none of them are practical.

Tanaji is spot on. Unfortunately, we trust almost everything of our lives on unverified source code running on computers over which we have no control. It is unverified only in the sense that I personally havent verified it and I dont know/trust the person who actually verified it. Don't see the reason this fetish behind trying to get access to the src of EVMs onlee, amongst the EVM-paranoid. Getting access to the src code only proves that the src code of the EVM you were given is OK...doesnt prove that the src doesn't other spurious versions which are injected into other EVMs. What if the hack is board level? Do you want to manually trace each line? Lets even get more paranoid...what if a politician chacha has bribed the honest Swedes of Atmel or whoever makes the MCU to make a customized 'rigged' MCU? - again possible but not practical!
Even the 'randomized' selection of an EVM for evaluation, is not really randomized and can be subtly controlled. For every check there is a way to wiggle out - when does it end, unless you are personally planning to check every EVM in India?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2009 07:19

http://www.travelindia-guide.com/electi ... lok-sabha/

    714 million voters, 43m more than elections of 2004
    8,28,804 polling stations,
    1.36m EVMs,
    4m civic officials,
    2.1m security officials
    Photo electoral rolls to be used for first time in 522 of total 543 constituencies
    Total expenditure estimated to be around Rs. 10,000 crore
    A polling booth in the interiors of Gir forest in Junagadh has one voter
    In Chhattisgarh, one polling booth has been made for just two voters
    In Arunachal Pradesh, three booths have been made for three voters each

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby BijuShet » 10 Jul 2009 07:35

shiv wrote:http://www.travelindia-guide.com/elections-indian-lok-sabha/

    714 million voters, 43m more than elections of 2004
    8,28,804 polling stations,
    1.36m EVMs,
    4m civic officials,
    2.1m security officials
    Photo electoral rolls to be used for first time in 522 of total 543 constituencies
    Total expenditure estimated to be around Rs. 10,000 crore
    A polling booth in the interiors of Gir forest in Junagadh has one voter
    In Chhattisgarh, one polling booth has been made for just two voters
    In Arunachal Pradesh, three booths have been made for three voters each

And 0 EVMs for over 10 million non resident Indian citizens in the Middle East, North America, Europe and else where.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 10 Jul 2009 08:42

Raja Bose wrote: Don't see the reason this fetish behind trying to get access to the src of EVMs onlee, amongst the EVM-paranoid. Getting access to the src code only proves that the src code of the EVM you were given is OK...doesnt prove that the src doesn't other spurious versions which are injected into other EVMs. What if the hack is board level? Do you want to manually trace each line? Lets even get more paranoid...what if a politician chacha has bribed the honest Swedes of Atmel or whoever makes the MCU to make a customized 'rigged' MCU? - again possible but not practical!
Even the 'randomized' selection of an EVM for evaluation, is not really randomized and can be subtly controlled. For every check there is a way to wiggle out - when does it end, unless you are personally planning to check every EVM in India?


You are just proving that EVMs cannot be assured to be free of defects using any means available. So they have to be dumped then.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Virupaksha » 10 Jul 2009 09:02

vera_k wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: Don't see the reason this fetish behind trying to get access to the src of EVMs onlee, amongst the EVM-paranoid. Getting access to the src code only proves that the src code of the EVM you were given is OK...doesnt prove that the src doesn't other spurious versions which are injected into other EVMs. What if the hack is board level? Do you want to manually trace each line? Lets even get more paranoid...what if a politician chacha has bribed the honest Swedes of Atmel or whoever makes the MCU to make a customized 'rigged' MCU? - again possible but not practical!
Even the 'randomized' selection of an EVM for evaluation, is not really randomized and can be subtly controlled. For every check there is a way to wiggle out - when does it end, unless you are personally planning to check every EVM in India?


You are just proving that EVMs cannot be assured to be free of defects using any means available. So they have to be dumped then.

I think a system where every loser can choose any non-random EVM, i.e. booth station where he expects to win but loses, and where he can do *any* thing to that, all captured on camera will be a start.

*any, meaning he is allowed to open, check the source in it into the binaries and so on,

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Jul 2009 11:11

vera_k, I was merely pointing out the holes in the inspection measures which are being advocated by the EVM-jehadis ( :mrgreen: ) for accepting EVMs as secure.

Whether EVM should be dumped or not is a separate question. As far as I see, all methods have ways to exploitation. Nothing can be foolproof...the only thing foolproof can be the fool itself! :twisted: Doomsdays scenarios are there for every system....trick is to minimize it. On that count the EVMs are doing quite well.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Jul 2009 11:14

ravi_ku wrote:I think a system where every loser can choose any non-random EVM, i.e. booth station where he expects to win but loses, and where he can do *any* thing to that, all captured on camera will be a start.

*any, meaning he is allowed to open, check the source in it into the binaries and so on,


In a country where a neta accepting a fat bunch of currency on candid camera can cooly proclaim that the tape is 'doctored', expect all sorts of hera-pheri done during this 'inspection' process esp. if he brings in his own 'hackers'. India will finally be an IT super power when netas stop employing muscular goondas and instead start employing bespectacled goondas! 8)

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RajeshA » 10 Jul 2009 13:35

BijuShet wrote:And 0 EVMs for over 10 million non resident Indian citizens in the Middle East, North America, Europe and else where.


This is really a sad story. Elections are one way to fix the NRI stokes to the India central hub. The India-centered interest of NRIs would stay high. Their bonds with India (in contrast to their bonds just with their family in India) would stay strong. The elections would give India the ability to project the elections as a huge social event abroad, where the NRIs can mingle and get to know each other. It would also be an (almost) free PR blitz for India paid by the local chapters of the political parties in the foreign lands.

The tradition of nominating 3 members of Lok Sabha by the President, 2 of them from the Anglo-Indian community, should not be scrapped. I haven't seen anybody from the Anglo-Indian community in my life, nor read about any such person. I don't even know whether there are more than 2 members of this community in India. And even if there are many people of the Anglo-Indian community still out there, what makes them more important than any other community.

Far more important is to give representation to the millions of NRIs. These 3 seats should be given to representatives of NRIs. In fact my suggestion would be to arrange for 4 seats - one for North America, one for Europe, one for Africa, and one for Asia.

This is not just about giving the NRIs a piece of the cake, but it also of India getting some free publicity. This is something the Chinese would not be able to stage anywhere.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 10 Jul 2009 14:41

http://www.kalingatimes.com/odisha_news ... _Court.htm

EVM tampering: Congress leader moves High Court


KalingaTimes Correspondent

Cuttack, July 8: Congress leader Alok Jena has moved the Odisha High Court challenging the outcome of the recent polls with regard to the Bhubaneswar Central Assembly constituency.

In a petition filed on June 29, Jena has prayed to the Court to declare the election of Biju Janata Dal nominee Bijay Kumar Mohanty as null and void.

Jena, who lost the Assembly election that was held in the month April, has reportedly alleged in his petition that the electronic voting machines (EVMs) that were used for polling in the constituency were tampered at the instance of the ruling BJD.

On the day of counting, Jena had lodged a complaint in this regard to the Chief Electoral Officer of the State as well as the Election Observer.

The petitioner had also alleged that several EVMs that were used in the polling were replaced by other machines before the counting of votes. :?: The administrative machinery was grossly misused to help the BJD candidate win the election, he had alleged on the counting day.

Jena's petition is likely to come up for hearing shortly. More than six other similar petitions have also filed in the High Court mainly by Congress leaders who had lost the elections.

Senior Congress leader Ghulam Nabi Azad had also told media in Bhubaneswar last month that many of the party candidates who lost the recent Assembly and Lok Sabha polls had alleged that EVMs were tampered in their constituencies to ensure their defeat
.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby krishnan » 10 Jul 2009 14:45

So can we say the same thing about congress wins as well Mr Ghulam Nabi Azad

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 10 Jul 2009 15:26

krishnan wrote:So can we say the same thing about congress wins as well Mr Ghulam Nabi Azad


Say that and the H word comes out :rotfl: :rotfl:


We now have various petitions in various HCs on EVMs.
Let us see what comes out of it.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 10 Jul 2009 15:30

Nothing much might come out of it. The ruling party has blocked commons from investigating into the wealth of judges. And the judges do not have to make their assets public before taking up their post. The judges in all probability will now have to repay that favor.

this basically validates whatever RMji has been saying all along, the Judge-Neta nexus and the larger NBJPRIE-nexus will always block accountability and probity.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Samay » 11 Jul 2009 01:48

Raju wrote:Nothing much might come out of it. The ruling party has blocked commons from investigating into the wealth of judges. And the judges do not have to make their assets public before taking up their post. The judges in all probability will now have to repay that favor.

this basically validates whatever RMji has been saying all along, the Judge-Neta nexus and the larger NBJPRIE-nexus will always block accountability and probity.

Interesting point
look at this no-commonsense from a high authority of judgement, wonder what will happen to this country
“If a democratically elected government decides to do something without misappropriating public money, there is little courts can do,” the apex court said, refusing to interfere in the on-going work for installation of the statues.
note the words "democratically elected government" here the sc statement forgot to add"democratically elected government-solely using caste politics,and moving ahead on this agenda,decides to...." :evil:

wonder how hard working and intelligent these judges are to take 10yrs+ for most of the cases, and in this case not have a simple commonsense to see a waste of public money(in amongst the poorest state) as a good job done,.
what are these black coats judging on??
this is hopeless condition where a country can't appeal against any internal threat in courts .

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 13 Jul 2009 02:32

During the elections, I was of the opinion that the topic of "rigging EVMs" is some paranoid thing. Another aspect was that all the software/hardware was inhouse in ECIL and BEL and if these institutions are compromised then everything from India's strategic defence manufacturing also could be compromised. Hence I never even have thought that EVMs can be compromised.

Off late I read here and there that the software used to count the votes from various EVMs at constituencies was outsourced to unknown number of companies. As per one allegation, there was a company that is owned/associated to L. Rajgopal from INC. Does anyone has any information about this counting-software outsourcing.

Another confusing issues, why do you need multiple software programs as it is the same program everywhere? What is this multiple companies and outsourcing issues? Is it just allegation/hot air or is there any truth? why in the world that government allowed private companies as opposed to earlier process of just using ECIL and BEL.

If it is just counting software, may be they should recount the entire LS constituencies again to clear the doubts.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 13 Jul 2009 09:38

If rigging happened, then we can safely assume that rigging happened with explicit permission of MNCs (MNCs = CIA = MNC + CIA ) , because they have deep inroads in IAS, ToI etc and if rigging happens without their approval, they will expose it in no time.

The EVM setup has two parts - EVM with 16 ballot buttons and Control unit. Control units are 1 per booths, where as EVMs can be 1-2 and rarely 3 per booth. There are about 11,00,000 EVMs and 800,000 control units.

With support of Chawla, CIA is capable of putting rigged 700,000 control units in warehouses before elections, and then replacing them by right non-rigged EVMs after counting is over and EVMs come back to warehouse.

So if EVMs were rigged, now they are all replaced by non-rigged EVMs.

-----

The pro-EVM people's logic resembles pro-interview people. In recruitment of junior judges and all junior GoI staff including UPSC, I oppose interview and demand written exams only as interviews are prone to corruption. But pro-interview people demand proof that interview takers actually take bribe !! And they further demand that interviews should go on till there is a proof that over 51% of interview takers actually take bribe !! As if interview takers give receipt of bribes they take !! Good thing is that commons seldom listen to their "show me the proof" litany, and commons do agree with words on streets.

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 13 Jul 2009 13:32

The pro-EVM people's logic resembles pro-interview people. In recruitment of junior judges and all junior GoI staff including UPSC, I oppose interview and demand written exams only as interviews are prone to corruption. But pro-interview people demand proof that interview takers actually take bribe !! And they further demand that interviews should go on till there is a proof that over 51% of interview takers actually take bribe !! As if interview takers give receipt of bribes they take !! Good thing is that commons seldom listen to their "show me the proof" litany, and commons do agree with words on streets.


It its TRIVIAL to prove that anti EVM people stand to gain 1 crore Rs each from selling the ballot papers, counting staff etc etc. Mehtaji, you still have not posted ANY numbers that disprove this. Why are you MISLEADING the commons with your agenda? It is TRIVIAL to see that these people are either NBJPRIE themselves, or are hand in glove with them....

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 13 Jul 2009 13:39

7 Lakh EVMs. Lets assume 20 mins to desolder, re program and resolder each EVM and re-package it. That is 20 * 7000000 = 2333333 man hours of work = 97222 man days of work =
266 man years of work.

Imagine the amount of people required to get this done in time. Not to mention the resultant risk of exposure involved. And I am not even considering the fact that it is likely that each EVM needs to have separate programming due to how the candidates are listed on the ballot.

The CUs are not something that you can program like your computer, the firmware is on a ROM which must be removed, and replaced.

Of course, laws of space and time do not matter in Rahul Mehtaji's ramblings. He is beyond physics.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 13 Jul 2009 16:32

Tanaji, the candidate list is never entered in the EVM. It simply counts votes cast into a row. The order of the candidates, ie which candidate goes into which row, is based on the party status (ie national/state party, registered party, independent), and then within a block, alphabetical. The list of the candidates in the proper order will be published after the nomination process is finalized. Ballots will be printed in this order, and inserted into the machine.

The electrion commission publishes the handbook for the officers. The one for Returning officers that deals with these activities is here http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBooks/Handbook_for_Returning_Officers.pdf

Read chapter XII for the instruction on how to prep the machines for poll.

The machines are randomized while allocating to a constituency, and again randomized for the polling stations. So, any key-code programming should happen after the machines are handed over to the returning officer of the constituency. All stages of randomization and commissioning are done in the presence of the agents of the candidates, are completely videographed for record.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 13 Jul 2009 18:40

Tanaji wrote:7 Lakh EVMs. Lets assume 20 mins to desolder, re program and resolder each EVM and re-package it. That is 20 * 7000000 = 2333333 man hours of work = 97222 man days of work =
266 man years of work.

Imagine the amount of people required to get this done in time. Not to mention the resultant risk of exposure involved. And I am not even considering the fact that it is likely that each EVM needs to have separate programming due to how the candidates are listed on the ballot.

The CUs are not something that you can program like your computer, the firmware is on a ROM which must be removed, and replaced.

Of course, laws of space and time do not matter in Rahul Mehtaji's ramblings. He is beyond physics.


Tanaji,

I wished sometimes you would read my posts before accusing me of rambling.

I did not say that CIA men would open the control unit, remove the existing ROM, put new ROM etc. I said they would just replace all unrigged Control Units with rigged ones before shipping from warehouse to District Collector, and then when CUs come back to warehouse after counting is over, they will replace it it original ones.

The people in top EC would know, but if they are co-operating and willing, such en-masse replacement if possible for some if not all constituencies' control units. One constituency uses about 1000-1500 control units, 1 per booth.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 13 Jul 2009 18:51

Dileep wrote:Tanaji, the candidate list is never entered in the EVM. It simply counts votes cast into a row. The order of the candidates, ie which candidate goes into which row, is based on the party status (ie national/state party, registered party, independent), and then within a block, alphabetical. The list of the candidates in the proper order will be published after the nomination process is finalized. Ballots will be printed in this order, and inserted into the machine.

The electrion commission publishes the handbook for the officers. The one for Returning officers that deals with these activities is here http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBooks/Handbook_for_Returning_Officers.pdf

Read chapter XII for the instruction on how to prep the machines for poll.

The machines are randomized while allocating to a constituency, and again randomized for the polling stations. So, any key-code programming should happen after the machines are handed over to the returning officer of the constituency. All stages of randomization and commissioning are done in the presence of the agents of the candidates, are completely videographed for record.


Dileep,

The units are randomized before agents ONLY at district level. When EVMs are sent from EC warehouse to district, there is no randomization. And randomization does not give any guarantee against following way of rigging : The CU is rigged to subtract 5% votes of all candidates and add them to say candidate no. 2 after 100 votes are cast.

Now EVMs arrive AFTER candidate number are assigned. So lets say in Gandhinagar Constituency, Congress candidate is no 2. Some 1500 EVMs were shipped from EC warehouse to Gandhinagar after candidate number was given. So before shipping EVMs, the EC guy replace the 1500 real Control Units with 1500 Control Units given agency which supplies rigged Control Units. And the Control Unit is rigged to give 5% more votes to No. 2 guy and 5% less votes to rest. And once counting is over and CUs come back to warehouse, they will replace back with original unrigged control units.

Now you have real faith in judges, EC etc and assume that they are beyond corruption. Well, some people also believe that traffic policemen are non-corrupt and some even believe that santa clause does exist. I dont argue against people's shradhha in SCjs, CEC and other holy men.

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 13 Jul 2009 21:27

Rahul Mehtaji, I was wondering if you do the following:

1. Consult a doctor, or worse, take medication that is prescribed by him, and manufactured by a multinational company on which you have no control, or no means to verify.

2. Use the road, where the other driver can blatantly break the law and kill you.

3. Eat from a restaurant, where you can be poisoned. Worse still, buy atta made by a company on which you have no control, from wheat that is from a multinational owned farm.

If someone CAN pull of the stunt you mention, they can very well do the same thing with a ballot box. They can replace pre-filled ballot boxes at the warehouses using exactly the same modus operandi you outlined. They can also do much more heinous things, like killing you, the sole hope of the country to pull it out from the cesspool of corruption that it is today.

Prove to me that it is not possible to replace pre-filled ballot boxes, given the kind of access you assumed.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby suryag » 14 Jul 2009 01:12

I think RMji went overboard about the 700000 EVMs thing

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Jul 2009 02:08

Rahul Mehta wrote: So before shipping EVMs, the EC guy replace the 1500 real Control Units with 1500 Control Units given agency which supplies rigged Control Units. And the Control Unit is rigged to give 5% more votes to No. 2 guy and 5% less votes to rest. And once counting is over and CUs come back to warehouse, they will replace back with original unrigged control units.


Shri Mehta ji,

In such a situation how does your paper ballet become any better????

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 14 Jul 2009 07:36

EVMs: Are they giving us right verdicts?

BHUBANESWAR, 12 JULY: The raging debate over manipulation of Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs) across the country establishes the fact that people do not trust the machine, and more so, in a backward state like Orissa.
Hence and until and unless there is public acceptance one should not impose it said speakers at a seminar organised by Orissa Jan Sammelan here today.
Majority of the speakers and the audience firmly believed that EVMs are not tamper proof. In fact when Mr Rabi Das, convener of the Sammelan, tried to sum up saying the legitimacy of the 2009 elections is not being questioned, several people in the audience strongly objected and grilled him.
Mr P Satpathy, who had contested the Assembly elections as an Independent candidate said he and eight of his family members had cast vote in one booth where he secured only four votes. I had at least 800 committed workers and I got over 469 votes, he submitted questioning the credibility of the machines. “It is not jan mata but jantra mata and it is manipulated,” he alleged. Mr Satpathy pointed out that the BJP candidates in a particular region including the three from Bhubaneswar had secured 11,000 votes and all Independent candidates 500 votes. It was as if people had decided a ceiling on the number of votes. The vast difference between results of elections held in the first phase and the second phase, the unprecedented victory margin in Assembly constituencies were other aspects raised in the seminar to raise doubts. While Mr Satpathy drew loud cheers from the audience, former chief secretary Mr Rabinarayan Das suggested that a committee of experts need to probe into the use and functioning of EVMs.
Mr Das felt it would be proper to impose President Rule six months prior to elections to prevent the party in power from influencing officers through postings and making populist announcements.
He cited instances of how officers shunted out by the Election Commission of India were re-posted as soon as elections were over. If a public servant is found unfit by the Commission how is it that he or she gets the same post after election, he questioned. Letters and articles written by experts including former chief secretary, Mr Umesh Saigal, former Union minister Mr Subramanium Swamy on tampering of EVMs were read out to the audience.
Software expert, Mr LN Panda deliberated on the configuration of the machine and said it was possible to introduce an additional programme or virus to manipulate EVMs.
The existing programme cannot be changed or tampered but certainly a virus or additional programme can be introduced in the machine. Theoretically, one can manipulate EVMs and it is not tamper proof, he said. Professor P Singh, a physicist, felt that people of the country, given its literacy level and ignorance were not ready to accept a EVM. “Public acceptance is sovereign and hence it should be discarded. Why should any self respecting voter go to the booth and confront a machine of which he or she knows nothing at all. Why should he or she ask the officials present in the booth as to what he should do,” questioned the professor. It was pointed out that some of the defeated candidates had already moved the Orissa High Court in this regard.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 14 Jul 2009 08:13

I am convinced that the opposition to the EVM is not because the are riggable, but because the are not. Politicians are used to rigging, and they find no way to do that with the EVMs. That is the real reason.

People projecting their own bad side on others is a well known piskological phenomenon. An amorous man would always allege that his wife is (also) infidel.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 12:11

Dileep wrote:If someone CAN pull of the stunt you mention, they can very well do the same thing with a ballot box. They can replace pre-filled ballot boxes at the warehouses using exactly the same modus operandi you outlined.


Rahul Mehta: So before shipping EVMs, the EC guy replace the 1500 real Control Units with 1500 Control Units given agency which supplies rigged Control Units. And the Control Unit is rigged to give 5% more votes to No. 2 guy and 5% less votes to rest. And once counting is over and CUs come back to warehouse, they will replace back with original unrigged control units.

Raja Bose : In such a situation how does your paper ballet become any better?


Replacing the ballot boxes with ballot papers from 1500 booths would need 2-5 people per booth, i.e. 4500 criminals per constituency. Also, the ballot boxes for ballot paper are not shipped from CEC warehouse, but are manufactured locally at District/Tahsil level. Also, how would one know how many ballot papers to put in each box? No one knows voting % at each booth in advance. So replacing ballot boxes can be done only AFTER election, and not before. And this would require someone to run a huge printing press as well as ground staff to break into rooms. So this too would need 1000-2000 goons per constituency.

The process of replacing ballot boxes AFTER the poll is too error prone, as the duplicate must have exact number of ballot paper as in the original box. Also, one would need to bring 3-5 trucks full of ballot papers, and must know in advance which ballot box is located in which room. Too many places to fail.

Where as in EVMs, all 1500 Control Units of a given constituency go from one CEC warehouse to the Collector. So if a person has pre-fabricated rigged CUs, with support of Chawala, he can replace actual 1500 CUs with rigged ones within few hours. EVMs dispatching is centralized --- everything in from CEC warehouse and everything under CEC Chawala, who is well known for his corruption. While in paper ballot, EVERYTHING is 100% decentralized -- printing is done at district level, boxes are made at Tahsil level, etc.

So to rig 200 seats :

1. in EVMs, I only need co-operation of Chawala, a few top IAS in EC and a few engineers to manufacture say 300,000 rigged Control Units abroad, and substitute them in warehouse before they are shipped.

2. While to rig ballots in paper-ballot, I need 1000-2000 goons in each of these 200 Constituencies and I also need co-operation with 1000-2000 of grass root level policemen and officers.

Latter is unmanageable even for The Illuminati. The former is child's play for CIA.

-----

Now inside a booth, how would you know that the Control Unit was the one made by CIA or the one made by BEL? They are replica from outside as well as inside, except that code in CIA Unit gives 5% more votes to Congress guy and reduces 5% of the votes of next highest guy. You think anyone in India has X-ray vision to tell that control unit is not duplicate but original? I dont have such divine vision, and so I vote for paper ballot.

-----

[Aside : But yes, IMO, counting should happen within 2 days after voting so that such issue lessen. This can be done by increasing policemen from 15,00,000 to 45,00,000 (a long over due demand) and increasing cameras in booths, and making law that all election offences on polling day will go in fast track courts. So less crimes, and hence voting can be held in WHOLE country in one day, and counting can happen next day.]

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 12:35

Dileep wrote:I am convinced that the opposition to the EVM is not because the are riggable, but because the are not. Politicians are used to rigging, and they find no way to do that with the EVMs. That is the real reason.


So Dileep, you say that I want paper ballots so that I can rig them at booth level. :D

And I say that you want EVMs so that CIA can rig them at warehouse level. :D

What do you say about 71 cr commons voters? IOW, not enact a procedure by which citizens can replace CEC using open vote, and then let the CEC decide. And, also let commons decide paper/EVM issue using open vote. Open voting is 99.99% fool proof. No Constitutional amendment is needed to have these two procedures.

IOW, I am willing to make 71 commons as final. Whom do you want to be final on this issue?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby AjayKK » 14 Jul 2009 13:28

^
R_M maybe wrong thread, but iirc, you were talking of a PIL on IRV on which you were to argue.
Any updates on that ?

PS : Plain inquiry. NOM.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 14 Jul 2009 16:02

So Dileep, you say that I want paper ballots so that I can rig them at booth level. :D

No, not you, and I don't consider you to be a politician though you claim to be one.

Replacing the ballot boxes with ballot papers from 1500 booths would need 2-5 people per booth, i.e. 4500 criminals per constituency. Also, the ballot boxes for ballot paper are not shipped from CEC warehouse, but are manufactured locally at District/Tahsil level. Also, how would one know how many ballot papers to put in each box? No one knows voting % at each booth in advance. So replacing ballot boxes can be done only AFTER election, and not before. And this would require someone to run a huge printing press as well as ground staff to break into rooms. So this too would need 1000-2000 goons per constituency.


No. If you can replace the machines, you can replace the boxes AFTER the poll. Same number of people to me compromised.
The process of replacing ballot boxes AFTER the poll is too error prone, as the duplicate must have exact number of ballot paper as in the original box. Also, one would need to bring 3-5 trucks full of ballot papers, and must know in advance which ballot box is located in which room. Too many places to fail.

A ballot box is not too bigger than an EVM, so if you can replace an EVM, you can replace a ballot box.

Where as in EVMs, all 1500 Control Units of a given constituency go from one CEC warehouse to the Collector.

No. All machines for ALL the constituencies under a collector go to him, and they are randomized in the presence of the agents. Whenever you have more than one constituency (here in cochin there were three under the same collector) your logic fails.

So if a person has pre-fabricated rigged CUs, with support of Chawala, he can replace actual 1500 CUs with rigged ones within few hours.

Have you ever worked in a warehouse? I have. You need to find 1500 boxes by serial number, and replace them with the exact serial number. that is because the serial number of the machines are prepared well in advance and sent to the receivers. And since Mr. Chawla, or even the babu co-conspirator is not going to do it, you need a number of people to do that, and they are going to ask why you are replacing the boxes.

EVMs dispatching is centralized --- everything in from CEC warehouse and everything under CEC Chawala, who is well known for his corruption.


That is the cat out of the bag, isn't it? The devil-incarnate naveen chawla, like santa clause, is going to magically appear at the EC warehouses and replace the EVMS.
While in paper ballot, EVERYTHING is 100% decentralized -- printing is done at district level, boxes are made at Tahsil level, etc.

It doesn't matter. With paper, you can print your copies anywhere.

So to rig 200 seats :

1. in EVMs, I only need co-operation of Chawala, a few top IAS in EC and a few engineers to manufacture say 300,000 rigged Control Units abroad, and substitute them in warehouse before they are shipped.

Have you ever into a manufacturing operation that makes 300,000 units of ANYTHING? Let alone 300,000 sets of printed circuit boards? I have run PCB assembly plants myself, and I am right now sitting on top of one of the larger plants in India. Just to mention, have you any idea how many man hours is needed just to put the soldered boards into the metal boxes? Or to make the boxes themselves, and here you need to make them EXACTLY like the original.

And wonder of wonders!!! NO ONE TALKED!!

2. While to rig ballots in paper-ballot, I need 1000-2000 goons in each of these 200 Constituencies and I also need co-operation with 1000-2000 of grass root level policemen and officers.


No, you just replace the filled ballot boxes after the poll, just like you propose to replace the machines.

Does Naveen Chawla come personally to despatch the machines? Does the despatch done by a couple of men, deep in the night, so that no one, not even the chaiwala, notice the fraud? the whole of 200 constituencies are screwed, there are very powerful politicians who would give half their fortune to make a crack on it, and no one talked!!

Even dear leader Kim Jong IL would envy that kind of a feat! We live in a time where if you screw your secretary in the secrecy of a resort, the video of the action gets published on youtube. And no one talked!! Amazing feat indeed!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2009 16:49

Tanaji wrote:7 Lakh EVMs. Lets assume 20 mins to desolder, re program and resolder each EVM and re-package it. That is 20 * 7000000 = 2333333 man hours of work = 97222 man days of work =
266 man years of work.

Imagine the amount of people required to get this done in time. Not to mention the resultant risk of exposure involved. And I am not even considering the fact that it is likely that each EVM needs to have separate programming due to how the candidates are listed on the ballot.

The CUs are not something that you can program like your computer, the firmware is on a ROM which must be removed, and replaced.

Of course, laws of space and time do not matter in Rahul Mehtaji's ramblings. He is beyond physics.


No you just need one guy at the factory to provide the rigged binaries that will be burned into lakhs of PROM chips. Or you need one guy to provide rigged binaries for the totaliser program that mixes the votes. Nothing beyond a CS grad student's skills is required to produce the rigged assembly code.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 14 Jul 2009 17:09

Dileep wrote:Tanaji, the candidate list is never entered in the EVM. It simply counts votes cast into a row. The order of the candidates, ie which candidate goes into which row, is based on the party status (ie national/state party, registered party, independent), and then within a block, alphabetical. The list of the candidates in the proper order will be published after the nomination process is finalized. Ballots will be printed in this order, and inserted into the machine.
.....
The machines are randomized while allocating to a constituency, and again randomized for the polling stations. So, any key-code programming should happen after the machines are handed over to the returning officer of the constituency. All stages of randomization and commissioning are done in the presence of the agents of the candidates, are completely videographed for record.


Yes, but doesnt this mean that anyone trying to write a program that adds every 5th vote to a particular candidate has to know how many candidates there are and the key assignment, For example if there are 5 candidates in the constituency, assigned to first 5 buttons, my hacked firmware has to know that votes must be reduced from buttons 2, 3, 4 and 5 and added to tally of button 1. You many not need to know exact key assignment but surely the number of candidates is required. Which means a lot of hacked "versions" of the firmware, 543 in the worst case.

BTW, its pointless arguing with Rahul Mehta. He is impervious to logic, time and space.

I did not say that CIA men would open the control unit, remove the existing ROM, put new ROM etc. I said they would just replace all unrigged Control Units with rigged ones before shipping from warehouse to District Collector, and then when CUs come back to warehouse after counting is over, they will replace it it original ones.


The BU is keyed to the CU. It doesnt work otherwise. I suppose even the actual code numbers that BU uses are given out by evil evil Chawla eh?

No you just need one guy at the factory to provide the rigged binaries that will be burned into lakhs of PROM chips. Or you need one guy to provide rigged binaries for the totaliser program that mixes the votes. Nothing beyond a CS grad student's skills is required to produce the rigged assembly code.


Please read Dileep's post. Either you replace the whole BU/CU combo, or you replace the chip. IF you want to replace the combo then you need to get the whole thing manufactured from somewhere. How do you propose getting this done for 1.36M sets? How do you propose that you ensure the correct firmware goes to the right constituency? One EVM costs 5500 Rs. Lets say Rs. 3500 since it includes a battery and we can have multiple BUs to a CU. 1.36M * 3500 = 4.76 Billion Rs. = 476 crore Rs. I know politicians are crazy rich, but this is not chump change either. Do you think a foundry/integrator in China is going to accept Rupees? How do you think the money will be transferred... Yes, the standard answer is Swiss banks, but its not a trivial affair...

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2009 17:15

You don't need to know the order of the candidates to create the rigged binaries. The fraud can be triggered by an agent who enters the booth as a voter and presses a specific combination of key-strokes on the EVM. Even the polling agent would not know about it. Alternatively, the rigging could be done at the totaliser stage.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2009 17:23

Apparently the coding and the maintenance work is outsourced by the PSUs. The companies getting the maintenance contracts are owned by Congress MPs. (http://www.bangaloremirror.com/index.as ... &sectxslt=) And of course, everybody knows about Navin Chawla's history as a Gandhi family thug during the emergency.


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