Know Your India

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shiv
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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 03 Jan 2010 19:54

At the bottom is a map of the Indian state of Manipur. It's capital is Imphal

Manipur has a population of just 2.4 million people. The people are Meitei, Naga, and others (http://manipur.nic.in/people.htm) The official language is Meeteilon.

http://themanipurpage.tripod.com/histor ... eitei.html

Some other information of note

(e). Maharaja Budhachandra Singh (1941-1955 AD or 3339-3353 MF): After his highness Maharaja Churachand, his eldest son Budhachandra became the king of Manipur with Ishori Devi, the princess of Nepal as Leima or Maharani. World War II broke out in Manipur from April 1942-Jan. 1945 AD. Manipur was bombarded continuously for two years and the country was destroyed completely including Imphal and the Maharaja’s Palace. Markets were closed and paddy fields were not harvested during the war. People were suffering but Manipuris were too proud to beg for help. Several movements led by Neta Irabot sprang up in the demand for self rule of Manipur against the British Government. He went undergound in 1946 AD and died in 1955 AD in Burma. After the war, at 12 midnight of Thursday 28th August (Thawan), 1947 AD, the British handed over Manipur to Maharaja Budhachandra Singh and Maharani Iroshi Devi. Maharaja entered Kangla at Imphal and hoisted the National Flag of Manipur bearing the Dragon God Pakhangba. Top-guns were fired 18 times in honor of the Sovereign Kingdom in the presence of a large crowd. However, it did not last long. The newly formed independent India and its Government in New Delhi pressured the King to sign a merger agreement with India under very unusual circumstances. Maharaja signed the documents on 21st September 1949 AD at Shillong without prior consideration and approval from elected members of the Manipur Assembly. On October 15, 1949 AD, Major General Rawal Amar announced the annexation of Manipur at the Assam Rifle’s ground. Thus, Manipur’s status was lowered to a Part C territory under the Indian rule. In 1953, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru discontinued the payment of Kabow valley agreement to Manipur. This angered many of the local people. Budhachandra Maharaja died in 1955 AD.

(f) Present Manipur: On 21 January 1972, Manipur was granted Statehood after several years of demand by All Manipur Students Union and several political organisations. The ceremony was performed at the Palace Polo ground in Imphal . In 1992, Meitei-lon (Manipuri) was included in the Eighth Schedule as one of the 18 official languages of India. Manipur has yet to see an industry and a proper road connection to the rest of India. Air transportations are provided from Calcutta, New Delhi, Gauhati and Silchar but much beyond the reach of commoners.


Now how about that? :shock:

Image

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Jarita » 03 Jan 2010 22:57

Holy Molly..
Have you folks seen this map



http://soils.usda.gov/use/worldsoils/ma ... trisk.html

Massive multinational farm conglomerates who bought up an overwhelmingly large portion of the world's arable land during the Green Revolution and have been using it essentially non-stop since then to churn out the record low prices and record high yields.

In the process, they have been running the land into the ground - nonstop cultivation of fields depletes soil nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus, which micro-organisms naturally accumulate. In order to maintain crop yields, nitrogen based fertilizers must be spread across them essentially non-stop. The high levels of nitrates in the soil kill the micro-organisms, preventing natural fertilization and turning the topsoil into a kind of dust, prone to being blown off in the wind. As a result, almost a third of all arable land worldwide is at risk of being turned into a man-made desert

All across Asia Minor, the Middle East, India, and South-East Asia, land that was a breadbasket for literally centuries is on the verge of turning into drought-plagued wasteland. Places like Cyprus, once a fertile gem in the Mediterranean, are turning into sun-baked wasteland where only the hardiest weeds can grow:

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 03 Jan 2010 23:53

shiv wrote:The real American value that has come in to medicine is a mixed blessing/curse. It is called "Evidence Based Medicine". I am sure that in the US a man such as Pishtumlal would have his pants sued off for not practising "Evidence Based Medicine" and violating every guideline in the book and the excuse that he did not charge fees would not work in court. But Evidence Based Medicine can go only so far and no further. That will be believed when some poisoned foreign researcher says it. Not when a brainwashed Indian says it. Ironic :roll:


Come come. Chiropractice is widely used in the US. It does not depend on evidence based medicine. And people will start suing doctors in large numbers the day that Indian courts start awarding multi-crore judgements against doctors.

I suppose another thing to know about India is that someone will always use the "but India(ns) is(are) special like this only" excuse to resist modernisation.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Jan 2010 00:49

I just saw the EDIT.

I was not attacking asgkhan, but appreciating his contribution. I know the all important tone of voice is lost in the written word. Anyway I hope asgkhan interpreted my encouragement to him appropriately and if he did take offense, it was not intended.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vasu_ray » 04 Jan 2010 00:58

on the emerging technology of stem cells,

US, blocks itself of investing by legislation citing ethics much to the ire of the medical community

China, mints money from westerners with treatments for wide ranging conditions but not backed by full studies or insurance, not fully in the realm of Evidence backed model

India, trickle of research, trickle of benefit to real patients, no legislation, no funding or long term planning either

anyways,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 407439.cms

if all it takes is 300 crores to setup an AIIMS like medical institution, a 10k crore investment (similar to the MRCA deal) would be more than enough to cover the whole damn country followed by insurance coverage for rural folks, that insurance can be paid by rural land owners whose land can be leased by corporate/large land farming which are better poised to use automated equipment or negotiating water/power usage terms. Making farmers belong to an organized sector.

Real research is another topic whose funding needs to be supported by a financial model without increasing insurance costs neither restricting ones cutting edge to manufacturing generic drugs or govt. only institutions

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Re: Know Your India

Postby putnanja » 04 Jan 2010 03:35

Don't know if this is the right thread for this:

Muslims ask PC to apologise

New Delhi, Jan. 2: Muslim organisations have asked Union home minister P. Chidambaram to apologise or face legal action over his references to jihad in a lecture in Delhi last week.

Delivering the Intelligence Bureau centenary endowment lecture on December 23, Chidambaram had said: “Just as the Cold War came to an end, we witnessed the emergence of another kind of war, namely, jihad. Jihad is a war or struggle against unbelievers and, currently, it is waged by a number of groups owing allegiance to Islam. Unlike the original Crusades, jihad is not fought like a conventional war. Jihad employs terror as an instrument to achieve its objectives. Such terror is directed against all and sundry, its victims are usually innocent people, and its goal is to overawe and overthrow the established authority. The tactics of the jihadis have been copied by militants belonging to other groups too, not excluding militants professing the Hindu faith.”

Organisations such as the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, Jamaat-e-Islami Hind and the Jamiat Ulema have condemned the statement.
...
..
Your statement has caused anguish and resentment affecting the good relations between the Muslim community and the party in power at the Centre. It is our hope that you will be gentlemanly enough to withdraw your statement,” said the Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam president, M.H. Jawahirullah.

“Your reported speech at the recent Intelligence Bureau meeting equating two diametrically opposite concepts, viz. the noble jihad with the abominable terrorism, has very badly hurt the sentiments of the Muslim minority community,” Jawahirullah said.

In an open letter to the minister, Jawahirullah said: “Jihad is admittedly a struggle but against what and against whom is the question. It is a striving against injustice and falsehood. That Islam teaches that this should be done through violence is an unadulterated lie.

...

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Airavat » 04 Jan 2010 05:55

shiv wrote:On October 15, 1949 AD, Major General Rawal Amar announced the annexation of Manipur at the Assam Rifle’s ground. Thus, Manipur’s status was lowered to a Part C territory under the Indian rule. In 1953, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru discontinued the payment of Kabow valley agreement to Manipur. This angered many of the local people. Budhachandra Maharaja died in 1955 AD.

(f) Present Manipur: On 21 January 1972, Manipur was granted Statehood after several years of demand by All Manipur Students Union and several political organisations. The ceremony was performed at the Palace Polo ground in Imphal . In 1992, Meitei-lon (Manipuri) was included in the Eighth Schedule as one of the 18 official languages of India. Manipur has yet to see an industry and a proper road connection to the rest of India. Air transportations are provided from Calcutta, New Delhi, Gauhati and Silchar but much beyond the reach of commoners.

Now how about that? :shock:


Similar things happened in many other princely states across India. Like Bharatpur in Rajputana:

Bharatpur administration implicated in Gandhi assassination

A New York Times report: Indian Army troops have been sent to keep order in the Princely State of Bharatpur

Another report on the merger of Oriya-speaking princely states into Orissa: "Ten persons were killed. The hillmen object to their Princely state of being merged with Orissa province."

Similar stories can be dug up on the INC's machinations with regard to the princely states in other parts of India. Even after formal accessions, it took a couple of years and military force in some cases for the states to be fully integrated. The INC propaganda on princely states was: they were British stooges, their rulers were debauched, and hence all the INC's actions on these states were justified.

To be fair, the new nation was struggling with so many other problems at that time that such machinations were a necessary evil. And even without these the princely states would have eventually been integrated.

MODS: can we move Shiv's post and mine to some other thread? Perhaps the States news and discussion or Distorted history?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2010 06:25

Airavat wrote:
To be fair, the new nation was struggling with so many other problems at that time that such machinations were a necessary evil. And even without these the princely states would have eventually been integrated.


The only issue I have with your post is that it's not just the new state, but the 62 year old state that is still struggling with a whole lot of problems. Meitei culture has all but disappeared. It is no loss for most Indians, but when modern India finds it a "necessary evil" to swallow up and drown a people and culture what happens is that cultures that have more people will give more trouble as they find themselves being drowned out. The current Telengana strife has a similar genesis.

How a nation deals with that is important

1) Do you force a culture to conform to some secular mass ideal set by some other group?
2) Do you allow every culture to survive within some common framework with a degree of freedom for each culture and laws to try and stop one culture from treading on another's rights?
3) Do you ruthlessly eliminate a troublesome culture by some other means?

The lack of development in Manipur has nothing to do with distorted history.
Last edited by shiv on 04 Jan 2010 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2010 06:33

RaviBg wrote:Don't know if this is the right thread for this:

Muslims ask PC to apologise

New Delhi, Jan. 2: Muslim organisations have asked Union home minister P. Chidambaram to apologise or face legal action over his references to jihad in a lecture in Delhi last week.



I think it is an appropriate thread. Some Muslims have felt offended that PC has made un-PC statements. So what are they doing? They are not stoning and burning buses. They are not flying Pakistani flags. They are suing him in an Indian court if he does not apologise. All three actions are possible in India and the stoning and burning are almost normal day to day events done by anyone for any excuse, as actor Vishnuvardhan's death showed. So going to court is a refreshing bit of news.

The question is can Indian courts live up to the trust that any Indian individual or community places in them, We need to get Rahul Mehta in on this.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby asgkhan » 04 Jan 2010 08:00

sanjaykumar wrote:I just saw the EDIT.

I was not attacking asgkhan, but appreciating his contribution. I know the all important tone of voice is lost in the written word. Anyway I hope asgkhan interpreted my encouragement to him appropriately and if he did take offense, it was not intended.

No offense taken sir.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby a_kumar » 04 Jan 2010 12:12

shiv wrote:Indians are not especially stupid or violent. But I believe such violence is an indicator of how bad life is for a segment of the population. That segment is hidden from many who live in India, leave alone those who live outside of India. But it comes to the fore as paroxysms of odd behavior. We notice it only when there is violence. We deny it and get angry when some newspaper or "Arundhoti" ally reports the state of life of too many Indians.


Great post right from first words, thanks.

Had random views revolving around the same conclusion, but couldn't manage to put down well.

Here are a thought as well. I honestly believe that given a chance most people would do the right thing, for example, Railway TC not taking a bribe or people coming forward as witnesses or not negotiating with terrorists etc. But, far from making it easier to follow the rules, we come up with strange unusual rules that in the end only serve to harrass folks.

Not exactly same, but here is one example.

- I got an email last year from the the internet service provider right after the whole spate of IM emails from available WI-FIs. Probably several folks got the same..

You would no doubt be aware of recent cases of misuse by the anti-social and anti-national elements, of internet access provided to the customers by various ISPs particularly when internet access using W-iFi technology.

In order to overcome this problem, Department of Telecom has recently issued a directive dated 23-02-09 to ensure secured use of Wi-Fi based internet access under the delicensed frequency band(Directive attched)

Under this directive, any usage of Wi-Fi connectivity including deployment of Wi- Fi Routers by the customers themselves needs to get registered with us to meet compliance of DoT guidelines and instructions.

Therefore, if you are using a Wi-Fi router to access your broadband connection kindly register with us by filling in the attached format and mailing to us at regwifi@tatacommunications.com within 30 days of receipt of this communication.

Please note, Tata Communications Internet Services Limited will not be in any way held responsible or answerable in case any unauthorized usage of WiFi technology resulting into the non-compliance of DoT directive is detected within your Premises/Location by the Authorities concerned.


When DoT has the IP address of any communication, what will DoT gain by mandating everybody register with DoT.

In a country where a small fraction is tech-savy, how many people really will take necessary steps to stick to the rule. Best description my parents have for the router is its a "junction box" and they were graduates in their times. They don't even check their email.

While yielding no real benefit, it will become another rule in the long list which folks can easily find themselves in violation. This will now become another tool for itchy officials to harass people.

Another example : More recently, during the Headley saga, MEA sends out the following from this post
The Home Ministry has issued directions through the MEA to all missions abroad that any applicant for an Indian visa who has any sort of Pakistan lineage, even if it is two generations back, , must be referred to Delhi for prior clearance.


Two generations? How can the Home ministry (and MEA) expect that from the consulates, without appropriately adding questions on the form. Even then what questions will be on the forms? These "show-off" rules serve no purpose but to demonstrate they are doing something.

I wish there was an "stupid" meter that rates the Govt. Rules as "useful"/"junk" before they publish it.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 04 Jan 2010 16:45

**edited**
Last edited by archan on 04 Jan 2010 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Hello? you want another north vs south with your ignorant wording here?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 04 Jan 2010 16:52

shiv wrote:The only issue I have with your post is that it's not just the new state, but the 62 year old state that is still struggling with a whole lot of problems. Meitei culture has all but disappeared. It is no loss for most Indians, but when modern India finds it a "necessary evil" to swallow up and drown a people and culture what happens is that cultures that have more people will give more trouble as they find themselves being drowned out. The current Telengana strife has a similar genesis.

...

The lack of development in Manipur has nothing to do with distorted history.


As regards lack of development in Manipur - who is to blame? Is it not the Neta-Babu-Judiciary nexus that our esteemed RM ji talks about? So the solution is for more people to become RM-like in their thinking.

As regards disappearance of indigenous culture - what role was played by missionary elements? And doesn't the poverty created by the Neta-Babu-Judiciary nexus enable the predatory missionary activity?

And what about the fact that many Church denominations are controlled by neo-colonial western oligarchs? How does that affect Church policies towards native indigenous cultures?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2010 18:02

Pranav wrote:As regards disappearance of indigenous culture - what role was played by missionary elements? And doesn't the poverty created by the Neta-Babu-Judiciary nexus enable the predatory missionary activity?


A few weeks ago I met Admiral Dawson, former Chief of Navy staff. (He had earlier come for a BR meet - in 2001 I think) Manipur had been mentioned in a talk (By Foreign secy Pillai) that we had just attended and at the lunch thereafter were many luminaries including Fali Major and Adm Dawson.

He said that he was once asked by Indira Gandhi to go to Manipur as a govt representative. The babu who accompanied him did not even want to stay overnight. The man would fly in and fly out. In any case a reception was organized for these "high ups" from Dilli. A Manipuri group did a dance and the music accompaniment was by guitar. Not being inhibited by the trappings of babudom Adm Dawson asked fora guitar and accompanied the singers. It was after this that they really opened out to him. They lamented that the babus from Delhi who were sent there were sent as a "punishment posting" and did not give a damn about the Manipuri people. They said he was the first Dilli Official to have heard them out and showed signs of enjoying being with them He asked about them and got a lot of information and found out that Delhi had such a cheapo low power radio transmitter for the region that all the people could hear was Chinese and Myanmarese stations.

Adm Dawson promptly reported this to Indira who soon ensured that a more powerful transmitter was installed. But the story is symptomatic of how GoI does not necessarily care. It is manned by a bunch of incompetent **edited** in the same hierarchical structure that we often discuss re DRDO in the other forum. Staying in Dilli is the top posting. Going to Manipur and actually being interested is an impossibility.
Last edited by archan on 04 Jan 2010 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please be careful which words you use.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Jan 2010 08:03

.

Many folks have proposed some solutions to Hospital and Medical education problem. For good or for bad, at least for a change, we are talking about solution and drifting away from "100% pure whines". Following are the path I propose for us citizens of India :

1. Using RTI2, we citizens should enact procedures by which we citizens can expel/replace Central Health Minister, State Health Minister, District Sanitation Officer and District Adulteration Control Officer. These procedures will reduces and gross negligence.

2. Using RTI2, impose wealth tax of say 0.2% of wealth's mkt value to fund medical education and hospitals

3. Using RTI2, create following law : fees for MBBS, MD, DM will be zero

4. Using RTI2, create following law : those who do MBBS cant leave India for 5 years after completion of degree, those who do MD cant leave India for 3 years and those who do DM cant leave India for 4 years. No money equivalent for breaking this bond. We Indian citizens become frogs to make them doctors and so we want treatment in return.

5. Using RTI2, enact a law that all malpractice or negligence cases will be tried by Jurors and not judges. The judges always sell out and that promotes malpractice and negligence

6. Using RTI2, enact a law that we citizens can expel/replace MCI chief.

7. Cancel patents treaty. Abolish product patents and restore process patents only. Later, the product patents will be restored with following conditions :
a. the patent money cannot be taken out of India.
b. only patents registered in India will be protected
c. For the patents made in US etc. , if any Indian company is using those patents, money will go to GoI. IOW, GoI will own all the patents in (World - India). There will be no burden to protect wealth of foreigner.

This will be sufficient to make India's health care as good as US in next 10 years.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 05 Jan 2010 08:10

^^^

Sorry, but this is not realistic. If you start now, you'd only get 5 batches of doctors passing out before 10 years are up. The law for zero fees for MBBS has been tried - in all those government medical colleges that produce 60 doctors a year. Product patents are necessary so our own pharma companies can make money from their products. Point 4 would be a violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The recall procedures would be a good addition.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Abhibhushan » 06 Jan 2010 13:57

For every one wanting to know India, a visit to http://www.India.gov.in is highly recommended.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby brihaspati » 07 Jan 2010 01:12

shiv wrote
I think it is an appropriate thread. Some Muslims have felt offended that PC has made un-PC statements. So what are they doing? They are not stoning and burning buses. They are not flying Pakistani flags. They are suing him in an Indian court if he does not apologise. All three actions are possible in India and the stoning and burning are almost normal day to day events done by anyone for any excuse, as actor Vishnuvardhan's death showed. So going to court is a refreshing bit of news.

The question is can Indian courts live up to the trust that any Indian individual or community places in them, We need to get Rahul Mehta in on this.


Shivji,
By saying "All three actions are possible in India and the stoning and burning are almost normal day to day events done by anyone for any excuse", do you mean to say that such things "have happened before without any obstruction (or in spite of obstruction) from the rashtra"? By merely saying "possible" can imply that it is legally and Constitutionally allowed. Typically such actions would come under IPC as "creating public disorder" and destruction of public and private property. But since the IPC may not specifically mention the causes leading to such actions, which can be used to excuse such actions, where, when and against whom such laws would be applied is open to the interpretation of the administration.

The second important issue that you raise (perhaps not deliberately or consciously) is that Indian courts can arbitrate on the definition and characterizations of religious beliefs practised in India. The Constitution of India does not specifically define what each religious belief practised in India should be characterized as. The judiciary acts solely on the basis of the Constitution, the IPC, and cumulative precedence. Therefore only place where judiciary does have a solid ground for trying to characterize any religion is where it affects the civil and criminal laws. As for anything else, where philosophy is concerned, interpretation is - and has to be conceded to be - defined by its practitioners - unless, such practice appears to contradict some provision in the Constitution. Otherwise it can be interpreted to be intervention by an arm of the triplicity of the rashtra (the legislature+executive+judiciary) in the "right to freedom of religion/faith/belief".

The potential case against PC, crucially depends on whether a certain feature is accepted to be an intrinsic part of a certain faith or not. And if not, then whether PC's comments amount to a denigration of that faith by associating that faith with that feature. Further, whether such denigration, if accepted by the court amounts to a penalizable offence. Any judgement or ruling in such a case will legally fix part of the definition of that faith. But it will also set a precedence for the rashtra to appropriate the power to redefine any religion according to what the small number of individuals forming the bench interpret that faith to be.

I see a great opportunity for the future if that legal route is accepted. Do you also think so or do you disagree?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Prem » 07 Jan 2010 01:23

It is good that a Muslim Organization has taken honorable Home Minister to Court. This will provide oppertunity for both parties to determine the true nature of aggression against Indians. Question comes to mind is will the clarification/ definition of Jihad by India court be applicable and acceptable to all the Muslims of World who belive in Ghajwa-E- Hind or it will be applied only on Non Muslims of India ?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2010 02:09

This thread seems to be a counter to exisiting thread in Tech Forum

A Nation on the March

Note: The linked thread has news items which show progress of India. This one seems to be to show the opposite in a Katherine Mayo style.

I plan to move this to Tech forum for balance.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 07 Jan 2010 02:22

The curious thing is that for all the supposed power that Muslims wield electorally, the Muslim organisations seem to be on the back foot. Under normal circumstances, the Home Minister would have been charged under IPC 295A (Deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs) and would be in prison some time.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Hari Seldon » 07 Jan 2010 08:19

x-post:
Sanjay M wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:Bret Stephens in the WSJ on 'civilisational incompetence'
Take with salt only.


I do find our "civilization" to be incompetent. Those who pretentiously use the word "civilization" all the time tend to be the ones who have the least to boast about. I'm referring to ourselves, naturally.

You'll never see the Japanese referring to their "civilization" all the time. They'll refer to values, to honour, to ethics, etc, but they don't use superficial self-pompous words like "civilization". No, it's for the lesser accomplished, more ego-oriented people like Indians to do these things.

Whan Honda and Toyota cars started taking off during the 70s, did you see the Japanese boast of their "rising civilization"? Nope, but the minute any Indian starts selling tiffin boxes to the rest of the world, every Indian commentator is immediately crowing about our forward-marching "civilization".

Some people concentrate on goals, and meantime we are doing victory dances when we haven't even left our side of the playing field.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2010 08:42

I had the good fortune to interact with tribal leaders from Manipur. They are very open minded and very conscious of their Indian identity.

I was made a honorary chief and given the black and purple shawl which I treasure. Will bring to our brf mtg next time.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Jan 2010 13:51

vera_k wrote:1. The law for zero fees for MBBS has been tried - in all those government medical colleges that produce 60 doctors a year.

2. Product patents are necessary so our own pharma companies can make money from their products.

3. Point 4 would be a violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

4. The recall procedures would be a good addition.


1. No. Zero fees for doctors means a small increase in wealth tax needed to pay fees of doctors.

2. Indian companies will have product patents. The American companies wont. GoI will decide value of American companies' patrents, and that money will go to GoI. IOW, you can consider it as robbing the business of American companies inside India. Hell yes, there are no ethics in internations dog eat dog world. US looted all the Iraqi oil. There is nothing wrong in looting US companies' business in India.

3. If Point-4 (i.e. doctors cant leave India for N years after completing education) of my post violates Art-13, and using RTI2, citizens of India should pass a law that would withdraw India from Univasal declaraions. Indian interests should overide all these international declarations. And hwta is this international declarations worth anyway? Did it stop US from killing 511,00 Iraqies? NO. Will it stop US from killing 131 lakah Iranians? hell no. So why should such 2 bit declaration stop us from blocking doctors leaving India.

4. AWMTA :) . And once RTR comes, all points will come anyway.

========

shiv wrote:.... Adm Dawson promptly reported this to Indira who soon ensured that a more powerful transmitter was installed. But the story is symptomatic of how GoI does not necessarily care. It is manned by a bunch of incompetent **edited** in the same hierarchical structure that we often discuss re DRDO in the other forum. Staying in Dilli is the top posting. Going to Manipur and actually being interested is an impossibility.


Last edited by archan on 04 Jan 2010 03:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please be careful which words you use.


It was good to see a former admin getting admistered :D .

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 09 Jan 2010 05:30

Policeman attacked on road, ministers stare from cars, don't help
A policeman, R Vetrivel, in Tamil Nadu lies on the road begging for help. The 44-year-old's legs have been chopped off by gangsters.

A government convoy passes by this part of Tirunelvelli. It includes two ministers - for Sports and Health - in the Tamil Nadu government. The convoy stops. Neither of the ministers step out of their cars. With them are bureaucrats - a Collector and a Health Secretary.

The Collector, M Jayaraman, finally gets out of his car after dithering for eight minutes. But nobody offers to take the wounded inspector to hospital. Finally, the Collector phones for an ambulance. It doesn't arrive.

Twenty minutes later, the cop is placed in one of the cars (the ministers still don't offer theirs). The policeman dies en route to the hospital.

After the ambulance drives away, the Health Minister finally gets out of his car. When contacted later for a comment, he angrily asks the NDTV correspondent to leave him alone.

Tamil Nadu's Health Minister is M. R. K. Panneerselvam. The Minister for Environment and Sports is Thiru T. P. M. Mohideen Khan

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 09 Jan 2010 09:12

^ Unexploded pipe bombs were lying around the injured policemen, that could be the reason for their hesistation in rescuing the policeman.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 09 Jan 2010 09:24

Aren't the minister's security guys supposed to handle such a situation, given that they are trained and all??
To me it looks like that the "trained" pros don't want to get their hands dirty to save their colleague.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 09 Jan 2010 09:33

^you would need a bomb disposal squad to handle such a situation, the securitymen guarding ministers are trained to save the minister from assassinations and get him quickly out of dangerous situations, they dont know the ABCD of how to defuse live bombs.

And if the ministers did go near the injured policeman and one of the pipe bombs exploded killing them, then the same media would be calling the securitymen irresponsible for allowing the ministers to get in such a dangerous situation and for failing in their duty to protect the ministers.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby dinakar » 09 Jan 2010 14:01

pgbhat wrote:Aren't the minister's security guys supposed to handle such a situation, given that they are trained and all??
To me it looks like that the "trained" pros don't want to get their hands dirty to save their colleague.

pgbhat, actually the minister's are accompanied by security guys in two cars. After seeing the incident one car went chasing the group and they even fired three rounds towards the group whereas the other car people stayed there itself for the security of ministers. At that time they thought that some gang members are stilll hiiding in bushes and they may throw the pipe bomb. Thats why the initial hesitancy. However we cannot give a clean to them as they took about half an hour to send the SI to hospital in a police jeep atlast.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Dmurphy » 09 Jan 2010 21:07

This is unforgivable. Really brought me to tears. The only reason why the ministers didn't want to help that guy is they don't want to be seen helping a guy who has killed the local hero.

I f###ing can't believe this happened.

Image

Look at him. He has to support his own head with his own bloody hands. And spare a thought for his family who will have watched this.

That excuse about pipe bombs is all bull shit, IMO.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby dinakar » 09 Jan 2010 21:57

Dmurphy wrote:This is unforgivable. Really brought me to tears. The only reason why the ministers didn't want to help that guy is they don't want to be seen helping a guy who has killed the local hero.

Dmurphy, I think you are saying about the SI's stint in STF which finished Veerapan. But blaming the minster in this way is bad. DM just go through the different news articles. It is only the ministers and officials who called the ambulance and later sent him to hospital in a jeep. I accept that there was initial hesitancy among the officials in helping as there were still unexploded bombs and all these things happened within thirty minutes.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Surya » 09 Jan 2010 23:19

I am not able to shake it out of my head.

What a brave man. what karma.

People hesitate because of so many reasons but still it could have been done better - he may have still died but to see him rolling aorund like that

and what a country where the audacity of criminals to hack a policeman in broad daylight. Lets not laugh at Bihar when this happens in other states.

My suggestion to folks on BR threads is to giv frivolous activities a break for a day.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 09 Jan 2010 23:37

spent last night discussing video with my friends after I posted the article. There is absolutely NO excuse to not rush to his side. :evil:
All this pipe bombs excuse is just BS. :evil:
The security guys were unprepared to save their colleague. First thing is to try to save a life. Ministers could have been driven away from the location and security guys could have driven the policeman to a hospital. If cops are not equipped with that much of common sense during times like these then God save us. :roll:

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Jayram » 10 Jan 2010 01:02

Completley agree. This is like real life imitating a bad violence filled Telegu or Tamil movie. Something is really f** in the ethos in India that lets these things happen. That man if he made it to the hospital in time may have been alive by now..
There is blood on the ministers hands as much as the gangsters who do this in middle of the road in broad daylight..
:evil: :evil:

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 10 Jan 2010 08:31

Great now the brutal killing is being used to pass comments on the ethos the country, just love this when a single incident is enough to tarnish the image of the whole country.

I hope now someone is brave enough to do the same after reading this news which happened in another country.

Video: Nurse Hit By Car, Cops Pass By
POSTED: Wednesday, January 6, 2010

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center surveillance video obtained from the Florida Times-Union shows 55-year-old Karen Hanel, a Shands trauma nurse, being hit by a car in the hospital parking lot.

Seconds later, two police cruisers drive past her without any lights or sirens as she's lying on the ground.

As the second officer approaches Hanel, a witness appears to try and flag the officer down, but the officer keeps going.

Officers were chasing after Dvon Biggs last June.

According to Sean Cronin, Hanel's attorney, Biggs ran a stop sign a few blocks away, which initiated the chase.

Police estimated that Biggs was going about 50 mph when he hit Hanel, but he later testified in court that he was going about 30 mph, according to Hanel's attorney. The speed limit in the parking lot is 15 mph.

Police say they were chasing Dvon Biggs for running a stop sign when Biggs' car hit a woman in the Shands parking lot.

Now Hanel's attorney said his client wants answers, and she plans to sue the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

"This is not someone who robbed a bank or committed a violent felony, so public safety is the paramount importance," Cronin said. "Hanel is upset because there weren't any lights or sirens. Otherwise, she would've been alerted and likely would not have been injured at all."

JSO responded to questions Thursday with this statement: "Once we have an opportunity to review an unedited version of the video and speak to the officers involved, we will answer your questions. When we have done those things, we will get back to you."

Hanel's attorney said the city has a $100,00 cap on lawsuits. Hanel, who continues to recover from multiple broken bones six months after the accident, has incurred medical expenses that have already reached $350,000. Her attorney said she won't be able to work as a trauma nurse again.

Biggs has been sentenced to seven years in prison following a plea deal.

JSO said Friday the matter has been referred to Internal Affairs for a full investigation by the sheriff. JSO said officers seen on the video driving past the victim will be questioned.



And I fondly hope that people take a keen interest to know how the gangs in their cities operate. The city were i live, gangs contracted to finish of rivals act in the same manner that you have seen yesterday. They are known to hack their victims and rivals to death, this is becoz the local police have put a complete stop to the trade in illegal arms n ammunition, and not surprising criminals use sharp pointed implements for murder. So this classic contract killing death of the inspector doesnt come as a surprise to me. The only thing that led to public outrage is the video recording of this incident, else this incident would be published in a small corner of the newspaper and people would not even know the dangers the policemen have to face daily in facing these violent criminals.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Airavat » 10 Jan 2010 09:28

Changes in India over the last 10-20 years:

Safe drinking water in households (rural and urban) has improved from 36% in 1981 to 75% in 2001.

All India literacy rates improved from 52% in 1991 to 65% in 2001.

Foreign Exchange reserves increased from $42 billion in 2001 to $200 billion in 2007.

Index of industrial production was 163 in 2001 and improved to 274 in 2009.

Index of agricultural production has risen and fallen over the years: 166 in 2001, 150 in 2003, 207 in 2008.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jan 2010 11:59

rshyam wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:This is unforgivable. Really brought me to tears. The only reason why the ministers didn't want to help that guy is they don't want to be seen helping a guy who has killed the local hero.

Dmurphy, I think you are saying about the SI's stint in STF which finished Veerapan. But blaming the minster in this way is bad. DM just go through the different news articles. It is only the ministers and officials who called the ambulance and later sent him to hospital in a jeep. I accept that there was initial hesitancy among the officials in helping as there were still unexploded bombs and all these things happened within thirty minutes.
Minister in his way? Those guys waited around for about half an hour till whatever remained of Vetriveli was taken away in one of their convoy cars. Why didn't they do it earlier? And then those good for nothing ministers had the time to time step out of their cars and look around with their hands on their hips and lungis tied up high as if inspecting a construction site. Pathetic. I couldn't sleep last night because the scenes of him begging for help kept flashing in front of me.


Yeah guys, know your India!

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Re: Know Your India

Postby dinakar » 10 Jan 2010 13:17

Dmurphy wrote:Minister in his way? Those guys waited around for about half an hour till whatever remained of Vetriveli was taken away in one of their convoy cars. Why didn't they do it earlier? And then those good for nothing ministers had the time to time step out of their cars and look around with their hands on their hips and lungis tied up high as if inspecting a construction site. Pathetic. I couldn't sleep last night because the scenes of him begging for help kept flashing in front of me.

Yeah guys, know your India!

To add to the disgust, a fellow BRFite is justifying the ministers' laxity on some other thread saying the ministers just happened to 'be in the way'.


DM, I never justified the minister's action and in my earlier reply to pgbhat i said we can't give a clean chit to them. I said i dont support your view that the SI was not saved because he was in STF.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jan 2010 14:08

^^^
Well...may be thats not the reason. But it still is disgusting enough if not even more!

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Jan 2010 14:26

For those talking about the hazards of unexploded pipe bombs lying around, let me ask you a simple question: If it was one of the precious ministers who was lying in place of the policeman, would the worthies wait around staring at him while he bled to death on the asphalt? Ask yourself, if your brother was lying there, would you be worrying about risks to your life and limb before going to rescue and comfort him? Do you know how many jawans lost their life and limb during the Kargil war, trying to retrieve bodies of their fellow soldiers which were booby trapped by the retreating Pakis? They did so even after they were well aware of the risks and the fact that the soldiers were dead - did that stop them?

The India I know now is the same India I knew when I was a kid - nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed below the tinsel surface of glittering malls and IT firms. Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam should admit that he is an idiot of the 1st order and was smoking ganja when he spoke and wrote about his vision of India shining. We only want to undertake what is well laid out and risk-free and then we wonder why the world stomps us in our face.


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