Know Your India

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RayC
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Re: Know Your India

Postby RayC » 10 Jan 2010 15:27

I was not on the spot.

However, if I saw someone being shot, I sure would have jumped out and helped, more so if I had a weapon as the policemen who were accompanying the entourage.

If people were scared, then it is a sad commentary! Shame!

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Surya » 10 Jan 2010 19:40

after a troubled night

The problem is this was a very brutal show of force.

its like the underworld where instead of just shooting cleanly - does a bloody job on the victim to show that it can.

Thats what this was - plus in broad daylight.



the fact that this was a decorated cop makes it even more sad

As for those who seek comfort with some random example from another country - well if you can sleep well with that thought - good luck

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Re: Know Your India

Postby JwalaMukhi » 10 Jan 2010 20:27

There is a humongous gap between the public and NJBP. In this particular instance the nexus between NB trumped as it is at higher order than the nexus of BP or NP and resulted in inaction.
The gap and alienation is growing by the day, between the ruled and rulers. There is no strong "Good Samaritan act" which basically would provide immunity to anyone helping in this situation. Usually there is lot of harassment of the public when one indulges in good samaritan action in such situations. Dealing with bureaucracy, police and courts is a nightmare for the public. How many actually feel comfortable dealing with any of these institutions. Most would dread to have any part with these entities. The degree of alienation is causing break down in humanitarian aspect of the general public. If netas and babus weren't present on the scene there was a higher chance someone would have stepped up to the plate.
People in India aren't devoid of humanism, if anything that aspect is curbed due to institutions (NJBP) behaving as masters instead of serving the people.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 10 Jan 2010 22:01

Surya wrote:As for those who seek comfort with some random example from another country - well if you can sleep well with that thought - good luck


A poster taunts my country by taking this single incident and says "Something is really f** in the ethos in India" then i showed him a similar example in another country and asked him to pass the same type comment. Well he has not responded till now. It seems he doesnt have the courage to make the same. Its easy to rundown india becoz there is no retribution or response for such behaviour but when it comes to america people are $hit scared to respond similarly. Others may keep quiet after reading such comments but sorry i cant. If anyone thinks abusing India will make us look progressive then there is no bigger fool than him.

And another poster calls abdul kalam a ganja smoker. There are people who dont hesistate to pass such flithy comments against the former president who toiled for the nation's security. Well I ask such people what is your qualification that entitles you to call the man who researched missile and space tech for the benefit of India a drug addict. What have you ungrateful people done for the country? Pass comments on bavarian women and israeli women. Is this vulgar sense of enjoyment what you call patriotism?

And surya it doesnt make me happy showing a similar incident in another country but i also cant keep quiet when ungrateful people try to rundown my country which i hold dear to me more than my life.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby JwalaMukhi » 10 Jan 2010 22:45

This particular instance is a "crime scene". The general public do not have clear cut idea as to how to deal in such a situation. Especially, when neta and babus who are supposed to be intimate with the babucracy are hesitant.
The general public have helped when in trying times of natural disasters, as it is clear there is no 'crime scene' involved. For example:
http://www.hindu.com/2005/02/26/stories ... 430300.htm
aid that the volunteers saved 115 persons and cremated more than 2,500 victims' bodies. One hundred and ten doctors and five ambulances were pressed into service to carry out medical relief.

The Seva Bharati voluneers toured 132 villages while 1,200 women volunteers covered 113 worst-affected villages and took up counselling for the victims. In all 9,800 volunteers were involved in relief operations spread over 45 days.

Again, India is not some other nation, where the responsibility ends after calling the emergency number which is on speed dial.
Sorry Indian conditions are way too complicated, as the emergency personnel are ill-equipped to be first responders in a short notice. One quick look at emergency services, burns and trauma center in Bengaluru would convince, how many patients actually arrive there by ambulance as opposed to being brought by good samaritans. Same would apply to cases at Jayadeva institute of cardiology. More often than not, most of the patients are rushed by people unrelated to patients.
To draw conclusions that Indians are devoid of humanism, lacks understanding of the ground situation.

Before RahulMehta asks the pertinent question what are we going to do about the situation, here are few simple steps that could be accomplished.
Even on this board we have good quality physicians. With the help of them we could prepare first-aid emergency procedures for commonly treatable conditions, with high success rate. The Standard operating procedure should contain no more than 6 to 10 steps for most commonly encountered medical emergencies, pertaining to Indian situation.
Publish them in PDF format or in youtube/graphics mode.
Translate them into as many Indian languages as possible. Disseminate them to social organizations who have the outreach.
Get the SOP endorsed by Medical Council of India.
No need to train the common man with CPR techniques as the success rate is very low with that procedure.
Pressure the press which spent enough time capturing sensational brutality to spend time to disseminate common steps that the public can undertake in medical emergencies.
Get sign boards in cities and villages to indicate the locations of emergency medical facilities.
These are completely do able. But would that help in a crime scene situation. That requires reformation of how our babucracy and courts function.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Surya » 10 Jan 2010 22:55

Avinash

we could argue its not the same level.

One expects things like this in naples but still does not happen to cops to the best of my reading


But we will not get anywhere so I will leave it at that

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 10 Jan 2010 23:19

Surya wrote:One expects things like this in naples but still does not happen to cops to the best of my reading

Surya, last year an policeman was beheaded by maoists, another one was blinded and brutally tortured to death in mah by maoists. These things happen but people choose to ignore them. These people wont think twice before condemning the police but cant find the voice to condemn criminals. Hardly anyone other than the usual posters post in Internal security and the Red menace thread. But when a policeman or a politician is caught doing anything wrong people jump around and want their head.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby hnair » 10 Jan 2010 23:38

Surya, get a grip. "this sort of things" are unfortunate and sadly, **universal**. Eg: I have heard stories of cops bleeding to death in hardcore areas of US, while local public stands passively by or goes about their tasks. And I have heard of Mayoral (and other VVIP) visits messing up with 911 calls. I was curious to know whether they have a better methodology to deal with lessening VIP security impact during a normal domestic emergency. No, not really. I was trying to find some training materials for Kerala Police's experimental scheme of neighborhood policing scheme in my parent's neighborhood in Trivandrum(1 cop for 800 citizens, who mentors/commands about 50 ex-service/civilian volunteers for night patrols/relief etc). And VIP movement and civic disruption is a big deal in a politically active place like Trivandrum. Lots of stories come up in Malayalam news about people dying because of bandhs or never-ending poltical rallies.

Avinash, do not try to shame Surya about his travelogue. That is Macauley meets Medieval Nun right there and would mess up your life like nothing else. Those are great and I love reading an Indian perspective. So please let it go.

Some points
1) The TN ministers' security contingent should have scrambled and put atleast 10km between them and the ministers. Why? because the attackers could have been anyone from maoists to the tiger remenants. And if they became casualties, lot more people would die in political upheavals. a fact that *all* Police chiefs in politically active parts of the world without a "brainwashed and conforming" population has to take into account. INfact, only in India can you see Ministers even trying to do something, however meagre. B Raman's point on PVNR's Mumbai visit after blasts is a good example.

2) CPR and basic trauma training is something that has to be done at a more widespread level. eg: if your neighbourhood has a dangerous road curve and there are shops nearby, get all the shopkeepers and auto drivers trained on emergency responses. THis cant be left to police alone, particularly in under staffed India.

A severely bleeding person with severed limb mortifies nearly everyone who is a human, including some of the trained doctors. Paralysis can happen to responses. The remedy is to train 100% of the cops with periodic, half a day training at a trauma ward. And atleast some of the general public, eg: all active political members of a party too should be given training. Eg: the ministers' supporters would have been instant political heroes in such an emotional state like TN, *IF* someone moved their ass that day. a little selfish I know, but then political vested interests can move mountains and the poor cop would have been alive. I hope a lot of rethink happens in all the states over this.

Catching the perps is a separate law and order issue, which TN police are capable of dealing and I am not going into that. Getting attacked by country bombs and edge weapons is something I am sadly, a wee bit familiar with. ridiculous cowards :(

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Avinash R » 10 Jan 2010 23:47

hnair wrote:Avinash, do not try to shame Surya about his travelogue.

What did i say against Surya? :(

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Surya » 11 Jan 2010 00:55

err hnair not sure what you are meaning wrt avinash

I don;t think he has any issue with me.

Universal is the nervousness to help when blood and gore are all over - that has some logic to it.


But limbs getting chopped off is one you hear in nightmarish places not aspiring regional powers
Last edited by Surya on 11 Jan 2010 01:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Jan 2010 01:14

Avinash R wrote:And another poster calls abdul kalam a ganja smoker. There are people who dont hesistate to pass such flithy comments against the former president who toiled for the nation's security.

Apparently the meaning of that post and the context of its contents has completely eluded you so if you wish you can re-read the above mentioned post, otherwise I will leave it at that.

Avinash R wrote:And surya it doesnt make me happy showing a similar incident in another country but i also cant keep quiet when ungrateful people try to rundown my country which i hold dear to me more than my life.

Pushing things under the carpet as "isolated incidents" and saying "such things happen" or "it has happened before to so-and-so" is not a sign of patriotism in my book. That is synonymous of a "chalta hai" attitude which plagues us all. And it is not a question of whether it happens in other countries too. If some guy from another country is critical about us in a holier-than-thou sense, by all means put him in his place. But you and I are citizens of India, not of other countries hence, it is our right and duty to look critically at ourselves and call it like it is - it is our country, nobody else's.

Moreover, simply because they chop off hands in Rwanda doesn't mean that blowing off the leg of a policeman in India is tolerable. Otherwise you would be making the same kind of arguments as the Australians when they claim that murderous attacks on Indians in Australia is a non-issue since plenty more Indians get murdered in India!

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Jan 2010 01:40

Surya wrote:Universal is the nervousness to help when blood and gore are all over - that has some logic to it.


The suggestion made by some to train civilians by and large in first aid/CPR etc. techniques is a valid one. However, the immediate need is also to ensure the police are trained in such. Also, a "hardening" (if you will) of the police mentality is required - the lack of it was evident during 26/11 and in this incident. Our IA jawans (bare kids 18-20 years old) are also humans, they also get disgusted and scared of gore, they also are scared of dying or getting maimed. Yet how come they tackle such situations daily of a scale a 100 times worse than this? (some of their stories of ops NE are nightmarish)

It is quite correct that the common man hesitates to help since he is afraid of getting sucked into a quagmire solely due to his "good samaritan" act but the issue I have in this incident is that the police are standing there twiddling their thumbs and so is the collector - surely they are no commons! Isn't the collector someone who was chosen to become part of the Civil service because of his leadership abilities? Some might claim the police's first priority is to protect the ministers - very true! But in that case they should have taken them out of the incident zone (if you ever see SPG raising day demos, you can see how that is done...it is a well drilled matter) and left back a few men to take the SI to hospital. Instead police/PSOs/mango abduls are standing around with no clue on what to do except wait for the ambulance - even basic first aid might have saved the man. The attitude of the collector is that of seeing a dying destitute lying on the road and commenting "Arrey Bhai, is bechare ka kuch karo" (Cmon man, do something about this poor chap).

However, I don't fault the ministers becoz they might have been (rightly) advised to stay in their vehicles by their PSOs. I do fault their entourage.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 11 Jan 2010 02:59

x-posting from strat forum.
Duped, 30 Indians stranded in Kabul
Dozens of Indian labourers have been forced to take refuge in a Kabul gurdwara after job agents who promised lucrative jobs in the unstable capital disappeared, leaving the men penniless and without passports.

Instead, when he arrived in November, he was locked up in a house with other labourers, given only one meal per day and no work or salary. When his visa expired a month later, the agent vanished and the men turned to their embassy in desperation.

A mix of men from Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and other states now spend most of the day dozing under blankets waiting for rescue.


“About six months earlier, we had stray cases of Indians sent by unscrupulous agents to Afghanistan from Gulf countries, mainly from Dubai, on the false promise of remunerative employment,” the Indian embassy in Kabul said in a statement. “This trickle suddenly turned to a veritable flood, including also some cases of use of fraudulent visas,” the statement added.

The embassy is helping cover the costs of feeding the men, and has also sent doctors to check their health, but declined to give an overall total of the number affected.

Life is so harsh in India for these folks that they pay money to get in to war zones, even on fraudulent visas. :(

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Re: Know Your India

Postby SwamyG » 11 Jan 2010 06:25

Based on this article
1.Overall penetration of television sets in India, according to the Consumer Electronics and Appliances Manufacturers’ Association, stands at 45 per cent, the highest for any consumer appliance.
2. All-India penetration of refrigerators is less than 18 per cent according to the Consumer Electronics and Appliances Manufacturers’ Association.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby SwamyG » 11 Jan 2010 06:28

India 88th best country to live. India moved up 35 places.

cbelwal

Re: Know Your India

Postby cbelwal » 11 Jan 2010 06:47

For starters most developed countries have rules against not helping injured persons. If someone is caught staring like the politicos and police and it becomes a public spectacle as it did, arrest of all persons is guaranteed and the video will serve as critical evidence. Such things happen everywhere but the difference is that in many countries such a blatant disregard for human life is followed by guaranteed punishment and admonishment by society. This has hardly happened here.

And if you think that police would have reacted differently if this was common road accident you are wrong. I have had a very bad experience of being involved in a road accident in the night where our car had a head on collision with overturned tractor trolley with no rear lights. The car was damaged and one of the occupants suffered a head injury. We managed to reach a police outpost barely 2 kms away with atleast 5 constables. We pleaded for an ambulance or some vehicle, the constables flashed a message over the wireless and we could hear police from the nearest city responding that there is no vehicle available and we should make our own arrangements. Luckily some pretty senior person in the government was known and the SHO had to be arm twisted to send a vehicle which magically appeared. Unless the police feel their job is at risk they will never help you. It was a harrowing experience and the last thing I wish anyone to happen is to get in road accident in India.

In this case investigations have pointed out this poor police SI was attacked not for being part of the police, but because of a marital discord. Also it is wrong to compare Maoists with police as Avinash did. Police is paid by the taxes of the people, represent the state and claim to protect the people. Maoists are known anti-socials who are not 'expected' to help. Abuse of power by police is more severe and condemnable.

hnair wrote:Surya, get a grip. "this sort of things" are unfortunate and sadly, **universal**. Eg: I have heard stories of cops bleeding to death in hardcore areas of US, while local public stands passively by or goes about their tasks. And I have heard of Mayoral (and other VVIP) visits messing up with 911 calls. I was curious to know whether they have a better methodology to deal with lessening VIP security impact during a normal domestic emergency. No, not really. I was trying to find some training materials for Kerala Police's experimental scheme of neighborhood policing scheme in my parent's neighborhood in Trivandrum(1 cop for 800 citizens, who mentors/commands about 50 ex-service/civilian volunteers for night patrols/relief etc). And VIP movement and civic disruption is a big deal in a politically active place like Trivandrum. Lots of stories come up in Malayalam news about people dying because of bandhs or never-ending poltical rallies.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul M » 11 Jan 2010 06:49

Life is so harsh in India for these folks that they pay money to get in to war zones, even on fraudulent visas. :(

it's not as simple as that you know. first of all look at the state of origin of these people, none are the basket case states. secondly these people don't read BR and may not know what exactly they are getting into. third, the money promised might have been very high, in which case this is nothing but a variant of the ubiquitous cheat fund cases that keep appearing in the papers.

fourth and most important of all, there are always a class of people who are not to averse to taking risks to gain a fortune. history is full of people who willingly move to warzones and crisis areas to avail the many opportunities such places provide. who knows, there might be legit labourer jobs there that pay extremely well. I, for one won't be surprised if that is the case.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 11 Jan 2010 07:59

I know Rahul-ji, I was frustrated. What actually irks me are the recruiters/touts who take them for a ride. Same thing is happening over and over again......be it middle east, A'stan or Australia. :((
How do we tackle them?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Jan 2010 11:11

Re : policeman's gory death in TN.

The citizens of TN should expel these two Ministers using (proposed) procedure to recall Ministers. And the policeman in-charge of Minister's convoy should be demoted, not expelled. Then using (proposed) procedure of "imprisonment by majority voting", TN citizens should imprison the Ministers for 3 months.

Some BRites here demanded that Ministers should be prosecuted. And those BRites have not proposed any drafts to change existing courts. Hence I presume that his demand is to prosecute the Ministers is under existing courts. I oppose this demand, because existing judges are corrupt and nepotic. The only punishment the Ministers will face is that the judges will extract bribes from them. I am against any prosecution before existing judges.

Also, we citizens should ask HomeMin to give bullet proof vests and helmets to every class-I Nbjpr. And every judge, Minister, IAS, IPS, MP, MLA except CM, HomeMin, DefMin and say 100-200 designated high level heads should be told that in cases of violence, they must come out with helmets and vests even if that means risking their lives. And if they love their dear lives, they should not become Nbjpr. They can become businessman, engineer, executive, MBA, NRI or even become US citizens. But all class-I level people in Govt except persons in very high level will be punished if the dont act, even if action means risking life.

==

Many NRIs have expressed deep sorrow. I assume that their sorrow was real, and so I hope they will all catch next flight and come to India to help us Indians out of this mess.

==

Re : some BRites were bashing commons , cursing our ethics etc.

As usual, they have habit of cursing commons even when uncalled. Most commons do pick up injured and bring them to hospitals we see that all the time. Commons sometimes do NOT act, because it is customary for policemen to file fake cases against those who help and then extract bribes from them. So so commons fear helping people stuck in accident. And in this TN incident, commons did not help, as policemen were already there. When policemen are there, commons fear that that if they act, the policemen standing near by may consider it as an act of "common man stepping on the shoes of policemen" and harass them. But for some, it is customary to denigrate us commons, even when folly is due to some Nbjpr. That has happened 1000s of times on BR. I have explain each time that there is no folly no part of us commons. But they arent interested in analysis, they just want to bash commons. So I dont want any debate with them anymore.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Jan 2010 11:55

Raja Bose wrote:For those talking about the hazards of unexploded pipe bombs lying around, let me ask you a simple question: If it was one of the precious ministers who was lying in place of the policeman, would the worthies wait around staring at him while he bled to death on the asphalt? Ask yourself, if your brother was lying there, would you be worrying about risks to your life and limb before going to rescue and comfort him? Do you know how many jawans lost their life and limb during the Kargil war, trying to retrieve bodies of their fellow soldiers which were booby trapped by the retreating Pakis? They did so even after they were well aware of the risks and the fact that the soldiers were dead - did that stop them?

The India I know now is the same India I knew when I was a kid - nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed below the tinsel surface of glittering malls and IT firms. Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam should admit that he is an idiot of the 1st order and was smoking ganja when he spoke and wrote about his vision of India shining. We only want to undertake what is well laid out and risk-free and then we wonder why the world stomps us in our face.


I would have faced a ban for writing statement in bold. But then, some are more equal than others.

APJK was President and was supposed to write goody goody and inspirational things only. We citizens never asked Prez to talk about corruption in judges, police, neta with any specific details or specific suggestions. So APJK did what he was expected. IMO, we should remove the position of President. We need no rubber stamp and need no one to give inspirational talks anymore.

===

The threat on Minister's life was real. The criminals could be hiding in the bush, waiting for Minister to come out and then shoot the Minister down. AFAIK, Ministers are not given helmets, bullet proof vests to protect themselves and also dont get guns to shoot back to protect themselves. IMO, its time we citizens enact law that would give helmets , vests and guns to every DC, Minister etc and require them to come out in action, and risk their lives. And those who love their dear lives should be asked to leave positions. Entire India is now a war zone. Just as everyone in Military carries guns and vests, its time everyone in Govt also carries guns and vests.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Jan 2010 12:08

Mehta ji, Kindly don't use the incident involving the death of SI Vertivel for blowing your trumpet - if you do, I would consider it the most pathetic thing you have done on this forum yet. Ofcourse I have also given up expecting anything practical in terms of solutions from you - your posts provide some entertainment value, thats all.

As for the bolded statement, it is pretty clear you have not been able to comprehend the meaning of that post and the context of its contents...not that I expected you to, since you have previously exhibited a singular habit of talking first and thinking later.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 11 Jan 2010 12:09

Rahul M wrote:fourth and most important of all, there are always a class of people who are not to averse to taking risks to gain a fortune. history is full of people who willingly move to warzones and crisis areas to avail the many opportunities such places provide. who knows, there might be legit labourer jobs there that pay extremely well. I, for one won't be surprised if that is the case.


Quite true. It is rarely as simple black-and-white as bleeding heart WKKs might want to portray it. However, there is a significant number who take the chance to get out of grinding poverty.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shaardula » 11 Jan 2010 20:09


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Re: Know Your India

Postby hnair » 12 Jan 2010 00:29

Avinash R wrote:
hnair wrote:Avinash, do not try to shame Surya about his travelogue.

What did i say against Surya? :(


I thought you were targeting his travel write ups. But on second glance, I could see that was not the case and you were referring to others. I rarely call out people by name, that too only if I feel things can get offtracked, but in this case I made a mistake :oops: My sincere apologies.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby hnair » 12 Jan 2010 02:53

Surya wrote:But limbs getting chopped off is one you hear in nightmarish places not aspiring regional powers


Forgot to address this.

Surya, there are some Hispanic and East Asian gangs that use machetes on their victims. And then a large percentage of violence happens inside US jails with such weapons as can be made inside jails. Gruesome stuff. The victims include fellow prisoners as well as a sprinkling of jail employees. But since the victims are from "uncool demographics" (aka telegenic white wimmens who grab the attention of the "head of the family" dude during his channel surfing), we will never see a picture or video like the one we saw of the TN policeman.

But siren blaring posses on freeways and curb climbing patrol cars are the image that comes to our minds.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Sachin » 12 Jan 2010 14:47

Raja Bose wrote:However, the immediate need is also to ensure the police are trained in such. Also, a "hardening" (if you will) of the police mentality is required - the lack of it was evident during 26/11 and in this incident. Our IA jawans (bare kids 18-20 years old) are also humans, they also get disgusted and scared of gore, they also are scared of dying or getting maimed.

The police needs to be trained in CPR and emergency medical care. But to say that they are not used to seeing gory deaths, and bloody vicitims is a bit far fetched. Police men as part of their duty would see grue some motor accident victims, bodies (or what ever is left of it) ran over by trains etc. Infact the regular refrain I here is that policemen become cynical and hard-hearted after seeing these things regularly. And visit to a morgue/mortuary is also part of the police training. Generally during post-mortems a police constable would remain with the doctor to note down points.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Raja Bose » 13 Jan 2010 01:47

Sachin, When I say "hardening", I dont mean it in the context of being cynical. I mean it in the context of being able to act decisively when others freeze or have no clue. In the SI incident, clearly the police don't seem to know what to do except wait for the ambulance and also seem to misjudge the seriousness of the man's injuries.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 13 Jan 2010 06:34

^exactly, imagine those 18-19 y.o army dudes freezing (both physically and mentally), when they are under barrage of fire climbing kargil heights to sort out the enemy, some times spending days at the top. :shock: Pakistan would have hit the fan.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2010 20:51

posting in full

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/465 ... gress.html

Modernisation of madrasas crucial for Muslims’ progress
By Firoz Bakht Ahmed


The deadlock over a government proposal to modernise madrasas, or traditional Islamic schools, illustrates how a ‘minority mindset’ imposed by the ulema (clergy) and politicians could draw Muslims deeper into the morass of conservatism, poverty and unemployment.

There is a yawning gap between the Muslim educated in modern classrooms and their more numerous counterparts educated at madrasas, khanqahs, Urdu medium schools or simply nowhere. This gulf has widened rather than diminished over time.

Since taking over as the human resources development minister in May, Kapil Sibal has been driving reforms in all areas of education. Among his initiatives is a renewed push for the 2004 madrasa modernisation scheme, which aims to include the teaching of modern subjects in the largely theological curriculum and centralise the management of the thousands of Islamic seminaries spread all across India.

While as the minister of education, Maulana Azad too tried to establish an all India madrasa board to stabilise the religious education with a proper scale for teachers and a proper examination for students; however he was meted out with utmost resistance by Mufti Atiq-ur-Rehman Usmani, Maulana Shibli Nomani and Maulana Hifz-ur-Rehman, all his close associates.

Reforms in education are a must for the community as Muslims are seen with a begging bowl, languishing in their ghettoized slums with their literacy rates plummeting (41.27 per cent against the national literacy rate of 63.07 per cent). Muslim women have just 21.66 per cent literacy rate as against the 40.54 per cent amongst the non-Muslim women according to surveys carried out by Friends for Education.

Not more than two per cent Muslims are in government jobs. Of the 479 judges at the all India level, only 30 are Muslims that makes it just 6.26 per cent. In the IAS, Muslim percentage is a mere 2.27 per cent. Of the 3,284 IPS officers, just 120 are Muslims — just 3.65 per cent.

In the Central government ministries, the figures are pathetic. Of the 59 secretaries in the home ministry (joint secretaries, directors advisors, etc), the percentage of Muslims is zero. The situation isn’t different in the labour, power, defence, finance, external affairs, personnel, public, pension and grievances ministries. Of course, HRD and Information and Broadcasting ministries do have an officer each out of 26 and 33 respectively, making it 3.44 per cent. Of the total 426 officers in all the ministries, only nine are Muslims which means a meagre 2.11 per cent.

Changes are urgently needed to improve the state of the community. A committee under former Delhi high court chief justice Rajinder Sachar, which conducted independent India’s first exhaustive study has depicted how Muslims fare in education and employment compared with others besides establishing that the community was lagging behind in education and government jobs.

A big step

As for modernisation of madrasas, Atyab Siddiqui, legal advisor to Jamia Millia Islamia and a constitutional expert on matters pertaining to the Muslim community, says, “it’s a big step for Muslim education.” The scheme will enable students from various parts of the country to seek jobs of their choice, he says.

Modern education will provide Muslim youth from these seminaries a progressive socio-political outlook as well as help them find jobs and assimilate into the Indian success story. But the consensus deadline passed in August, and there is still no agreement on reforming madrasa education.

Why madrasas dither reform? Many madrasas find the teaching of modern subjects such as science and mathematics alongside the Quran too much of a dichotomy. Sections of the ulema and politicians belonging to the community also view the move as government intervention that will dilute the essentially theological nature of the madrasas.

The madrasa managements think that by accepting the government grant their autonomy will finish and that they’ll have to toe the government line and so on and so forth. However, the main reason is that their oil-dipped Arab grant might not be pocketed by them if the government comes forward.

The Muslim leadership has lost its voice and its utility and is taking the community back to the dark ages that one could see in the Arab nations before the advent of Islam. Most of the leaders play the politics of vote bank to acquire state patronage for themselves and their coteries. Their obscurantism is leading the community backwards.

They are irresponsibly petty minded and possess a narrow outlook out of tune with reality. The rest of Muslims get mere rhetorical lip-service about their social and economic needs and exhortations about the will of God. Instead Indian Muslims are kept in thrall to clerics and ill educated youths whose militancy has done little to free Muslims from the begging bowl.

The Madrasa Modernisation Scheme was proposed in 2004 by the newly set-up national monitoring committee for minorities education, effectively formalising a 1986 government initiative to improve the quality of education at schools.

It provides for setting up an All-India Madrasa Board to monitor the implementation of the modernisation programme as well as help them upgrade infrastructure and facilities. India cannot progress unless Muslims progress.

Gus
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Re: Know Your India

Postby Gus » 14 Jan 2010 01:46

It may seem counter intuitive, but I read a study in a NYT article (I think) that the more people witness a crime/tragedy the less likely they are to help because everyone thinks "there are so many people, somebody will do the helping, why me..I got my own worries". If this happened in front of less people, the responsibility of helping does not get diluted and increases in the individual to overcome the resistance part.

Anyways...it is horrible the way it happened.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Gus » 14 Jan 2010 01:52

pandyan wrote:I have heard of another incident in Chennai where a pedestrian was left to die after a truck ran over one of his leg.....


That is nothing. There is a case of a women getting knocked over from her bicycle on the NH and ran over by vehicles following the first vehicle..so many times that by the time the police can block vehicles, the flesh and bones were ground into the tar. Not a single vehicle stopped.

Road rash is a menace. 8 years back, when I was a regular driver, there was some sort of understanding on the roads. People dipped their high beams when approaching other vehicles. People warned the oncoming vehicle that they were overtaking by flashing their lights (however brazen their intimidating was due to the size of their vehicle). Nowadays hell has broken loose in TN roads. There is no discipline at all. There is absolutely no move by the govt to enforce any discipline and the situation has evolved into an uncontrolled Darwinian struggle for survival.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby SBajwa » 14 Jan 2010 02:26

There are many good stories too.

Just three months ago, One of my father's friend in Chandigarh was saved by an Auto Rickshaw driver.

Mr. Singh was riding on his bike when got hit by a runaway truck in outskirts of Chandiargh. The auto rickshaw driver right next to him stopped and picked him up (after telling his passengers to take another auto)., put him in his auto and took him to the hospital. Then after getting Mr. Singh to the hospital emergency, he went to his home and brought the family members to hospital. It was only because of his action that Mr. Singh survived. Mr. Singh told police that it was a truck that hit him.

There are many good people!! and good stories! we only hear bad (sensational) news. cause good stories do not increase the TRP ratings.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 14 Jan 2010 03:45

shiv wrote:posting in full

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/465 ... gress.html

Modernisation of madrasas crucial for Muslims’ progress
By Firoz Bakht Ahmed

Modern education will provide Muslim youth from these seminaries a progressive socio-political outlook as well as help them find jobs and assimilate into the Indian success story. But the consensus deadline passed in August, and there is still no agreement on reforming madrasa education.


All good points. But why can't these schools get affiliated to the state or central boards? A separate Madarsa board is simply postponing the problem if employers filter out students from that board (we have people debating which school is better on this forum, so this is not very farfetched). Students in both the Christian convent and RSS inspired schools affiliated to secular boards have prospered and done well regardless of the occasional religious themed activity in the school.
Last edited by vera_k on 14 Jan 2010 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Katare » 14 Jan 2010 06:15

Why didn't anyone walked over to him and put his head on his/her lap? Give him some comfort and water, try to stop bleeding or just simply talked to him.

There was no danger at that time or else they would have zipped through. They did stop and waited there, they tried to call ambulance but no one thought of that poor police officer as a human being in need for immediate care.

Why fixation with netas? There were dozens of people including the journalist who was filming video and trained policemen. they should have taken the lead.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2010 07:28

Katare wrote:Why didn't anyone walked over to him and put his head on his/her lap? Give him some comfort and water, try to stop bleeding or just simply talked to him.

There was no danger at that time or else they would have zipped through. They did stop and waited there, they tried to call ambulance but no one thought of that poor police officer as a human being in need for immediate care.

Why fixation with netas? There were dozens of people including the journalist who was filming video and trained policemen. they should have taken the lead.


katareji - if you educate your son in the West they will teach him first aid. In India they will teach you thermodynamics and Al Jabr. If you get an education in the first place. India is a phenomenally backward country for at least 300 million people.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2010 07:32

Happy Shankranti Folks
http://www.karnataka.com/festivals/shankranti.html

Makara Shankranti
Shankrati, PongalMakara Shankranti is the harvest festival, a new year and the festival of rejoicing and celebrations embracing the entire household friends and neighbors, the servants and the poor, the cows, and then all other living creatures symbolizes universal love and kindness.

Astronomical Significance
The astronomical significance of the festival is that it marks the beginning of Uttarayana, the sun's movement northward for a six-month period. Makar Sankranti refers to the event of the sun entering the zodiac sign of Makara (Capricorn). The Sanskrit term "Shankramana" means "to begin to move". It usually falls on the 14th or 15th of January every year.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby hnair » 14 Jan 2010 08:34

Gus, you have a point there about a large but ineffective group and I was trying to point that in my post somewhere above.

SBajwa-saar, thanks for that story. That is a "Know your India" story indeed and I have my own about a car incident I had on a rainy night in Bangalore.

shiv wrote:katareji - if you educate your son in the West they will teach him first aid. In India they will teach you thermodynamics and Al Jabr. If you get an education in the first place. India is a phenomenally backward country for at least 300 million people.


1) In India they do teach first aid in High school syllabus since ages. But to a certain level. I still remember tourniquets, artificial respiration diagrams etc from my class 9 books. And I studied in a Govt aided, no-frills school.
2) In the West they teach first aid. But to a certain level
3) Both the above doesnt teach anyone to steel self to go and help a man whose foot is all bone gristle and ribbons
4) There are grass root efforts (Sachin had pointed out the one in Thrissur and I had pointed out a few efforts in Trivandrum) around the country to work up a system that might not be pretty as to deserve a prime slot in FOX or NBC and reruns in Stars(or whatever channels that Indian elites who do Rho-Dho watch). But they work hard and save lives.

I thought this thread had a positive purpose.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2010 09:30

hnair wrote:
1) In India they do teach first aid in High school syllabus since ages. But to a certain level. I still remember tourniquets,


..which is wrong and must not be used. And artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices. So what is taught is outdated.

Fear of gristle and blood does not exist for some people. Ignorance does for most.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2010 09:45



Interesting.

From that link:

In Karnataka, Kannada medium schools attract 82% of the total number of schoolchildren, and 77% of all the schools in Karnataka are directly run by the government of Karnataka (a further 6% run from government aid).
Only 8% schoolchildren go to English medium schools in Karnataka.
This makes it clear that the central government plays no significant role in the education system of Karnataka.
Nor do English medium schools, nor does the CBSE board, nor do private schools in general.
This is the story of pretty much every other state of India, too. Hence, the nation’s education system is everything but what the English media tells you it is.
Can someone tell me what makes the English media believe that 1,00,000 is less than 328? How did 328 come to define the nation’s education system and how did 1,00,000 come to be neglected in the nation’s education system?


On the other hand - look what happens to those 8% English medium students

http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/0700105 ... acant.html

Bangalore: Even as the number of applicants surges, Karnataka’s engineering colleges are likely to see several thousand seats go vacant again this year.
Last year, more than 3,000 engineering seats out of the state’s total 55,000 stayed empty. When the first round of admissions ends on 14 July, observers say they wouldn’t be surprised if up to 15,000 seats find no takers. Most of these seats are in private colleges with poor quality of facilities and faculty, and in less popular streams of engineering.
<snip>
Even among the available talent pool, employability is a big issue. Industry experts say only about a quarter of India’s 400,000 engineers who graduate every year are employable

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 14 Jan 2010 10:43

Minor quibble - if the situation in Maharashtra is any indication, the intake to those engineering colleges would be substantially composed of students going to Kannada schools. This is borne out by the deficiencies in English language communication identified by surveys like the one below -

What makes graduates employable


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