Know Your India

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RamaY
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Re: Know Your India

Postby RamaY » 01 Jan 2010 02:49

Some data from CIA Factbook

Area mil. Sq. Km: 3.28759
Irrigated Land mil. Sq. KM: 0.55808

Total renewable water resources (thousand cu km) : 1.9078

Oil - Proven Reserves Hundred Billion BBL: 0.05625
Natural Gas - Proven Reserves Trillion Cu M: 1.075
Electricity Production trillion KWh: 0.6653

population billions: 1.166079217
Population below poverty line billions: -0.29151980425
Labor Force billions: 0.5235

Population Growth Rate %: 1.55

GDP PPP $trillion: 3.267
Investment as %GDP (0 to 1): 0.39
Education as % of GDP: 3.2
GINI Index (0 to 1): 0.368
Stock of Money ($trillions): 0.2509
Military Expenditure as % of GDP: 2.5

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 01 Jan 2010 03:14

Migrant workers flock to Mumbai. Looks like Al Jazeera got the date wrong on the title.

Admins please move the link if it is in appropriate for this thread.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby pgbhat » 01 Jan 2010 03:25

Al Jazeera's Hajj in India Documentary from Nov 2009. Two part report.



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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 04:00

shiv wrote:India has a doctor population ratio of 1 doctor for 1700 people. Most European countries have a doctor for every 300 people. That means India has 450,000 doctors but needs (today) over 3 million. India is currently producing about 20,000 medical graduates a year. In 10 years, accounting for an increase in production India may have produced 300,000 doctors from this bunch. To catch up we have to produce 2.4 million doctors in 10 years, which is ten times the current rate. Given our current system of expensive colleges producing super specialists India will still be far behind in 2020 unless something drastic is done.


The country went from producing a very low number of engineers to today's numbers of around 400,000 a year in about 15 years. Thanks to the growth in engineering education, most of the physical infrastructure like college buildings and such already exists and can be repurposed towards medicine from engineering if required.

So what factors prevent a similar increase for medicine? Is it the lack of teachers, are the medical regulators holding up progress in the name of "quality", or is the existing stock of doctors interested in perpetuating a shortage to maintain their wage levels?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2010 04:12

vera_k wrote:The country went from producing a very low number of engineers to today's numbers of around 400,000 a year in about 15 years. Thanks to the growth in engineering education, most of the physical infrastructure like college buildings and such already exists and can be repurposed towards medicine from engineering if required.

So what factors prevent a similar increase for medicine? Is it the lack of teachers, are the medical regulators holding up progress in the name of "quality", or is the existing stock of doctors interested in perpetuating a shortage to maintain their wage levels?

Vera_K,

The system for medical education is broken. The biggest problem is cost. The cost of training a single doctor is very high and if the doctor pays out of his pocket, it is not remunarative to be a "ordinary" mbbs doctor.

Why did engineering colleges mushroom while medical colleges did not? Engineering colleges could get away with showing 20 computers and some age old equipment as labs, while medical colleges need an assosciated working hospital. That hospital has to be housed with more doctors. The startup cost is high.

Also who is working as a prof in many engg colleges, the 4th year graduates who will work atleast initially for 5000-15000. Which doctor will agree to work at those prices? That is why I find the latest 3 year doctor idea as great. It will create multiple layers of doctors. A cheap neighbor hood doctor for common ailments.

Of course if the scamsurance makes its entry and makes itself as pervasive in US, ....
Last edited by Virupaksha on 01 Jan 2010 04:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 04:13

So it's mostly a question of unrealistic standards imposed by the medical regulators?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2010 04:14

vera_k wrote:So it's mostly a question of unrealistic standards imposed by the medical regulators?

Nope,

I will flip around and ask you, will you be ready to go to a doctor who is not 100% reliable and put your life in his hands?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 04:18

As a consumer, I have no choice but to believe the doctor, except for obvious idiots like the one who thought I was simultaneously suffering from TB, a heart murmur and a broken eardrum. But how many doctors are punished and have their licenses taken away due to a medical mistake?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2010 04:23

vera_k wrote:As a consumer, I have no choice but to believe the doctor, except for obvious idiots like the one who thought I was simultaneously suffering from TB, a heart murmur and a broken eardrum. But how many doctors are punished and have their licenses taken away due to a medical mistake?

Well if the insurance companies have their way ........
I know of a doctor who pays 1.5 lakh$ as insurance every year.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Yayavar » 01 Jan 2010 04:25

shiv wrote:
This would require some digging. Why don't you Google/Bing for info and see what you come up with. I am sure many of us would be grateful for any information you can dredge up on the issue.


You obviously got the above from some source ..does that not provide more information? I'll look up on Indian census information.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 04:27

Is that in India or the US? The Indian public health network would obviously be backed by the government, so there wouldn't be any need for private insurance.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2010 04:28

vera_k wrote:Is that in India or the US? The Indian public health network would obviously be backed by the government, so there wouldn't be any need for private insurance.

I thought $ would have been sufficient.

Indian public health network?? It is completely insufficient for our needs.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 04:31

ravi_ku wrote:Indian public health network?? It is completely insufficient for our needs.


We're going around in circles. In theory, the GoI provides universal health care. This is insufficient as you say, which then leads us back to the original question of how to educate enough doctors.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 06:36

Suraj wrote:I don't follow the argument that people will have less children if their circumstances are difficult. On the contrary, they will do the opposite - have as many kids as possible so as to improve the odds that at least some have a chance of survival and a better life. Once their own circumstances improve significantly, their desire for personal gratification will supercede their desire to improve the odds of survival of the next generation, and population growth will fall. While this may seem contrarian, this has been the case in every urbanized developed society. The surefire way to stabilize Indian population growth by non-invasive means is to encourage rapid economic growth and getting women into the workfoce, driving urbanization and nuclearization of families.

Suraj you are basically right. Education, especially female education is the surest means of reducing population growth. People who are not economically well off have a high maternal and infant mortality rate. That is mothers and infants are regularly dying from preventable causes of death. So they keep having children. In centuries gone by the death rate would match the birth rate, but in this day and age vaccination, simple rehydration formulae to prevent death (of infants) from diarrheas and simple pregnancy care are all leading to a decrease in the death rate with no similar decrease in the birth rate.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 06:43

vera_k wrote:
The country went from producing a very low number of engineers to today's numbers of around 400,000 a year in about 15 years. Thanks to the growth in engineering education, most of the physical infrastructure like college buildings and such already exists and can be repurposed towards medicine from engineering if required.

So what factors prevent a similar increase for medicine? Is it the lack of teachers, are the medical regulators holding up progress in the name of "quality", or is the existing stock of doctors interested in perpetuating a shortage to maintain their wage levels?


Teachers and cost of patients, Not buildings are the problem

Engineers can be taught in labs and workshops. Medical students have to learn on real live patients. When you set up an engineering lab - you have very little expense after setting it up. But every single patient has to be treated and that costs money even if the doctor comes free. If the patient is paying money, he does not want a student looking at him. So medical students (in India) learn on poor free patients. Someone has to foot the bill to treat poor free patients. The government does it in government colleges. Rich parents paying capitation fees of tens of lakhs help to in private colleges.

That is why it makes eminent sense for the US and the UK to import trained doctors and nurses. The main expense is in the training. After the training a few yeas of re orientation in the US/UK give readymade imported doctors

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 06:44

viv wrote:
shiv wrote:
This would require some digging. Why don't you Google/Bing for info and see what you come up with. I am sure many of us would be grateful for any information you can dredge up on the issue.


You obviously got the above from some source ..does that not provide more information?


But it does not provide me the time or motivation to answer YOUR question.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 07:10

shiv wrote:Someone has to foot the bill to treat poor free patients. The government does it in government colleges. Rich parents paying capitation fees of tens of lakhs help to in private colleges.


But in India the government is supposed to foot the bill for these patients in any case. Does the government lack money to pay the colleges what it takes to treat the patients that students learn on?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 07:14

self deleted - errors in figures - will repost after correction
Last edited by shiv on 01 Jan 2010 07:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 07:27

vera_k wrote:
shiv wrote:Someone has to foot the bill to treat poor free patients. The government does it in government colleges. Rich parents paying capitation fees of tens of lakhs help to in private colleges.


But in India the government is supposed to foot the bill for these patients in any case. Does the government lack money to pay the colleges what it takes to treat the patients that students learn on?


Health is a state subject. Remember that the central government only controls certain areas like defence, foreign affairs etc. Indian states have autonomy in many others affairs including (as we saw after 26/11, in internal security and police forces. So each state spends what it can afford and depending on the level of corruption present. Some states are better, some worse.

Karnataka was one of the first states that handed over education to the private sector with "capitation fee" medical (and engg) colleges by the dozen. Karnataka now boasts the largest number of engineering and medical (probably) seats. Karnataka looks after its own children and ensures that a maximum number gets these seats. But the problem is quality. When recruiting Infosys does not care too much whether the engineering graduate is from IIT or from a third rate college when jobs must be filled.

In the case of medicine the Medical Council has to crack down on third rate colleges. I am sure some medical councils would love to be bribed into allowing every college to survive but foreign medical councils (US/UK) would then reject Indian students outright - so a basic minimum standard has to be maintained. For a basic minimum standard to be maintained there have to be both staff and patients. Now when you build a new hospital the hospital has no patients and it may take a decade for the hospital to actually start getting enough patients. Students have to be taught even in that period (by sending them to other hospitals etc). But a lot of the nonsense that goes on has been discussed in the education thread and is OT here.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vera_k » 01 Jan 2010 07:46

Medical education is on the concurrent list. And why do policies adopted by foreign medical regulators have to be taken into account here? For instance, American regulators have intentionally trained fewer doctors than necessary and raised "quality" standards for foreign educated doctors to maintain local wage levels - is it wise then to let these regulators guide Indian policy?
Last edited by vera_k on 01 Jan 2010 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Airavat » 01 Jan 2010 08:13

shiv wrote:
viv wrote:Is it established method to consider Hindus separate from SC or Animists or Tribals in Indian data? Are not some Tribals Christians or Hindus? In that case is the Hindu data above including the SC or Tribal data or is it separately tallied?


This would require some digging. Why don't you Google/Bing for info and see what you come up with. I am sure many of us would be grateful for any information you can dredge up on the issue.


But this is the "Know Your India" thread, for the education of those Indians (particularly NRIs :mrgreen: ) who don't know the real India?

shiv wrote:It is because of the extra attention given to SC/ST that their birth rates are falling.

These statistics mean that Muslims need extra attention in terms of provision of the information that helped reduce SC/ST birth rates..


But the Census India figures posted by Saket show that fertility rates are: ST > Muslims > SC> Hindu.

And when living in urban areas, with better access to modern amenities, health and education, the fertility rates are Muslim> ST> SC> Hindu.

shiv wrote:self deleted - errors in figures - will repost after correction


Okay. But before you deleted that post you spoke of MMS being right about Muslims having the first claim to the country's resources. And you said that this means better education facilities in "Muslim areas" and so on.

What are these "Muslim areas"? In the locked Indian Interests thread you said that Hindus and Muslims, and all other communities, live together and do business. Are Muslim areas states, districts, tehsils, villages, towns....?

Since you didn't talk of SC/ST areas, Christian areas, Parsi areas, etc. you are implying that only one community/group is ghettoized. What are the reasons for that?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Umrao Das » 01 Jan 2010 08:21

Suraj garu is absolutely right.
Poverty Breeds population
Education ehances prosperity
Prosperty leads to Monopolistic tendencies (Corollary of Power tends to corrupt...)
Therefore less offsprings....
( A little of Shivji Piskology)

Poverty Breeds population
Leads to illiteracy
Tend to blame the educated
Which is the forte of Islamic Extreemist Mullahs
hence they perpetuate Population and Poverty
Since they lose control if followers are educated.

If any education imparted by Mullah/Madrasa will only be to kill, maim not only humans but reasoning as well.

On the contrary
Xtain Missionaries
Convert covertly
create a Clan of elite as model for the rest to aspire

(data point Jesuit activities in Latin America)

Slight deviation from main theme but the under currents of the great upheaval that is to be wrought on India very soon, probably in the next 10 yrs.

By the way look todays Times Of India (or Islamabad) for full page Advertisement WE LOVE PAKISTAN by India elite...

Send that message to Lt Saurab Kalias parents or Sq Ldr Ahuja's kids, kith & kin.

Sad Sad...

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2010 08:30

cough cough

stay with the "data" please

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Umrao Das » 01 Jan 2010 08:34

Gurgle Gurgle
Google You will see
Richer (Standard of living)the family smaller the Nucleus of siblings. W Europe/Canada
Contrary points
Mexico (even there the the above dicriminant holds)

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 09:22

Airavat wrote:Okay. But before you deleted that post you spoke of MMS being right about Muslims having the first claim to the country's resources. And you said that this means better education facilities in "Muslim areas" and so on.

Will talk about Muslim areas in a different post

First the data: I used fertility rate instead of birth rate so the calculations were wrong but the conclusions are no different. They are after all the same figures relating to births in the same population. Let me do the calculations - but "fertility rate" is a hypothetical figure that indicates how many kids a given woman is likely yo give birth to in her reproductive years.

Let me assume "reproductive years" to be 15 to 40 years. (25 years)

Let me also assume that 5% of every population group are girls of age 15, who will give birth to babies in the next 25 years.

Note that the calculation I am doing below refers only to the girls who have turned 15 in 2010. It does not include girls who will become 15 in 2011 or 2012 (or later) and start producing babies as per their given fertility rate


ST population 80 million - 5% are girls age 15, fertility rate 3.16 - by 2035 there will be 12.6 million ST kids of ages 0-25 from these girls

Muslim Population 140 million 5% are girls age 15 f rate 3.06 - by 2035 there will be 21.4 million Muslim kids of ages 0-25 from these girls

Scheduled castes 160 million 5% are age 15, f rate 2.89 - by 2035 there will be 23.1 million SC kids of ages 0-25 from these girls

Hindus - 800 million 5% are age 15 f rate 2.47 by 2035 there will be 98.8 million Hindu kids of ages 0-25 from these girls.

You add the four up and you get 155.3 million
Of this SC/ST kids form 23%
Muslim kids form 14%
Hindu kids form 63%

Even if you add up the figures and adjust for each group of girls who turn 15 in a given year and arbitrarily (but realistically) increase the Muslim rates and decrease the other rates (to end at year 2035), the overall figures will not change too much but you will have to do the figure fiddling if you disagree. I am not going to do it for you.

Now see what happens. Mothers and kids get attention, not their religions. In addition the squeaky wheel gets the most grease. In India's case the "squeaky wheel" have so far been the SCs and STs who have got the most attention. With 1 in 4 kids being SC/ST, and 2 out of 3 kids being Hindu, guess which groups have got the maximum attention?

It is because of the extra attention given to SC/ST that their birth rates are falling and they are getting jobs by reservation

These statistics mean that Muslims need extra attention NOW in terms of provision of the information that helped reduce SC/ST birth rates and increased their rate of education ad employment. The Muslim wheel is now beginning to sound more squeaky than others. The longer we wait the worse it will get. In a sense Manmohan Singh was perfectly right in saying "Muslims have first right on resources". He means that we need to spend money now on Muslims and pay attention to the truth that the figures tell us. If that effort is not put in now we are going to have a bigger problem in future. Muslim areas need hospitals and schools and Muslim students (particularly Muslim girls) need to get priority admission to medical colleges.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 09:55

Airavat wrote:What are these "Muslim areas"? In the locked Indian Interests thread you said that Hindus and Muslims, and all other communities, live together and do business. Are Muslim areas states, districts, tehsils, villages, towns....?

Since you didn't talk of SC/ST areas, Christian areas, Parsi areas, etc. you are implying that only one community/group is ghettoized. What are the reasons for that?



Airavat my best friend's wife and I live in the same area and I do business with her. But that does no mean we actually live together. We live in different localities of the same area (with the same PIN code and same polling booths at election time) and I visit her shop. In my area there is a locality that has predominantly Muslim homes, but there are businesses run by Hindus there and there is even a local BJP office. RSS meetings occur in a field that is shared by both groups.

Now why don't Hindus move into the areas occupied by Muslims. Some do. Many Hindus do not live in flats rented out by Muslims because they are disgusted by the smells of meat cooking and the presence of hanging carcasses of goats in a butcher's shop on the street. One street away is a predominantly Hindu area where you will find no such butcher's shops. Some Muslims do take up residence in flats in these areas but are requested not to cook meat and they respect that. One of the things about traditional India is that meat eating cannot be done every day by everyone and keeping off meat is less of an issue than imagined.

But because of personal preferences (or prejudices more Muslims tend to congregate in some areas and more Hindus in other areas.

If you have 2 groups X and Y living in separate groups the smaller group (living in Islands) are called ghettos. One could just as well call the largest group as a ghetto but we don't do that. So "ghettoization" is what the minority do if they live predominantly among their own. For centuries Hindus too have ghettoized themslves. That are Brahmin areas and there are Vysya Shetty areas. There is also a local Jain area.

In this day and age it is politically incorrect in India to talk of SC/ST areas although everyone knows where they are. In my area the Hindus and Muslims are generally wealthy, but the local slum which houses the servants who serve the community has the highest population as well as the highest proportion of SC and STs as well as the poorest people. At election time all Bangalore based politicians - be it for the Lok Sabha election, the state assembly election or the local government election have concentrated on this slum area alone, supplying money, liquor, saris and shirts because it is this area that gets them the swing vote.

In Bangalore the areas North of Commercial street have traditionally housed a mix of Christians, Muslims and Tamil speaking Hindus each in a little street or ghetto of their own. The British set up their residences on Residency road and the British Resident lived in what is now Bangalore club. They also set up the "cantonment" area with army camps. The demography has an interesting history but OT here

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 10:13

When I lived in Britain I discovered that entire streets had become "Indian" or "Asian". The mechanism seemed to be as follows. At first an Indian would manage to get a house in a predominantly white neighborhood. he would be under pressure to "maintain white standards) (Garbage, Lawn, cooking smells) etc and he would do that. But yet, over years the price of his property would fall and by extension the price of neighboring white properties would fall, with white not wanting to move next to Sri Curry Breath. So the guy buying the next house would be another "Asian". This proces repeated over 15-20 years made the street Asian and a ghetto.

This is exactly how ghettos develop anywhere.

I find that my millionaire Indian doctor classmates - for example in Florida are very keen to maintain their property value when building - so they take pains to keep up with all the white man's standards of that area. Typically there are tennis courts and a swimming pool in the property and non Indian tasks like shoveling snow and mowing the lawn are done regularly - if necessary by paying someone for that.. But what would I know? I live in India.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Umrao Das » 01 Jan 2010 10:16

alluding to shiv jis last post

During 1970s and 1980s, there was effort in Mumbai to clear slums and they built public housing ( Like in South Side of Chicago) one bed room flat and moved with great fanfare the residents odf slums , But but with in a month the residents came back with renewed vigor and gusto, Reason

1) They rented their 1 bed room apartments
2) The apartments were far away and removed from wher they were working for "Middle class" urban/suburban people whowere paying decent wages.

So these cahps had now dual income from rent aand job living ever happily in Jhopidi pattis.

Ardhath

"paisa hai parmatma" aks Its econom(y)ics stupid.

No wonder you cant fix things when it come to people.

Regan tried to ban begging and pan handling US courts declared the law Null and Void under free speech

Rudoplh the mayor Juliani treated them with Lathis as he went after them with law of encroachment of public property, which the court vigorously asked the mayor to execute.
***
PS I just missed Shiv jis second Gem.
To add to that
just go to
Jersey city in NJ adjacent to Hudson river
you will find Indo pak amity is spitting pan and throwing trash all over the city naking New Jersey the Garden state Garbage state.. :mrgreen:

(same with part(Indo pak part) of devon street in Chicago, aptly name gandhi street and Jinnah street where beards grow :mrgreen:
Ardhath
"Dndam Das guna Bhaveth"

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Airavat » 01 Jan 2010 10:44

shiv wrote:It is because of the extra attention given to SC/ST that their birth rates are falling and they are getting jobs by reservation.


60 years of reservation have kept the SC/ST population at the same level of poverty. And in those 60 years the GOI was run mostly by the INC and it's latter day offshoot, the Congress(I). One reason why the SC are increasingly voting for the BSP.

shiv wrote:In a sense Manmohan Singh was perfectly right in saying "Muslims have first right on resources". He means that we need to spend money now on Muslims and pay attention to the truth that the figures tell us. If that effort is not put in now we are going to have a bigger problem in future.


The statement by MMS is open to interpretation. He could be admitting that the (mostly Congress) GOI's 60-year old policy of letting Muslims have their own religious laws, of spending money on Haj pilgrimages, of letting Muslim children get educated in madrasas instead of modern schools, has failed.

shiv wrote:Muslim areas need hospitals and schools and Muslim students (particularly Muslim girls) need to get priority admission to medical colleges.

Airavat my best friend's wife and I live in the same area and I do business with her. But that does no mean we actually live together. We live in different localities of the same area.


So you meant Muslim localities in cities. Now each city has many hospitals and schools, which cater to all communities. Are you suggesting that Muslims are being turned away from these?

shiv wrote:For centuries Hindus too have ghettoized themslves. That are Brahmin areas and there are Vysya Shetty areas. There is also a local Jain area.

In this day and age it is politically incorrect in India to talk of SC/ST areas although everyone knows where they are.


Interesting that you brought up different castes and communities identified as Hindus, allegedly living in ghettos.

So do Shias and Sunnis have separate ghettos? Likewise lower-caste Muslims? To ensure that the poorest and most marginalized groups among Muslims are uplifted, by your reasoning (resonating Shri MMS) the first claim to resources should go to the most downtrodden among Muslims.

All we need is data on the low-caste Muslims, their fertility rates, and the localities in which they live.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 11:24

Airavat wrote:So you meant Muslim localities in cities. Now each city has many hospitals and schools, which cater to all communities. Are you suggesting that Muslims are being turned away from these?


Each city has government schools and hospitals as well as private schools and hospitals. Private schools and hospitals are fully secular. They turn away everyone without money, regardless of community.

Poorer areas of the city do not have enough schools or hospitals but the schools that exist are more likely to be in Hindu dominated areas. The schools are bad - but that is another issue. For poorer people "school areas" are important because the rich can send their kids tens of km to expensive schools in spacious premises on the outskirts by paying the fare for school buses (Rs 10 to 15000 per year per student). The poorer people's kids are just thrown on to the street after school so some relative has to be able to appear nearby for a pick up and he does not have a car.

So physical proximity to school is important. If there is no school in the Muslim area they do no sit back and moan. The community creates Madrasas. Education is often secular and free and even poor Hindu kids (if any) can attend these Madrasas. But if the government built a school that is easily accessible to a predominantly Muslim area the government will have a much better control over the community as well as providing an essential service. Many articles by Indian Muslims say "Build schools and not police stations in our areas" But on the basis of the argument that "All generalizations are wrong" the thought that a Muslim may be lying while saying this is also likely to be mistaken. maybe he is being honest.

Airavat wrote:Interesting that you brought up different castes and communities identified as Hindus, allegedly living in ghettos.

So do Shias and Sunnis have separate ghettos? Likewise lower-caste Muslims? To ensure that the poorest and most marginalized groups among Muslims are uplifted, by your reasoning (resonating Shri MMS) the first claim to resources should go to the most downtrodden among Muslims.

All we need is data on the low-caste Muslims, their fertility rates, and the localities in which they live.


Shias in India are often well off and extremely well educated. They are also well spoken and are seen in elite circles. But Hindus don't know the difference. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. Incidentally there is an Ahmedia mosque and library near where I live. But the local area has mainly Deobandi Sunnis.

The difference between Muslim low caste and Hindu low caste is their manner of segregation. Muslims will live among their low castes and they will pray and eat together. Hindus will traditionally not live and eat among their low castes. except in modern secular India. This is a double edged sword. Not only does it allow us to target the poorest Hindus for development (because of segregation) it also allows people to accuse Hindus of segregation.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Airavat » 01 Jan 2010 12:25

shiv wrote:Poorer areas of the city do not have enough schools or hospitals but the schools that exist are more likely to be in Hindu dominated areas.


Any data on this? And do these government schools in Hindu dominated areas only admit Hindus or all communities that seek modern education?

shiv wrote:But Hindus don't know the difference. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. Incidentally there is an Ahmedia mosque and library near where I live. But the local area has mainly Deobandi Sunnis.


Ah, so you know the difference between Ahmedias and Sunnis. Do other people living in the locality not know the difference?

To turn the question around, do Muslims know the difference between the various Hindu communities or is it just: A Hindu is a Hindu is a Hindu?

shiv wrote:The difference between Muslim low caste and Hindu low caste is their manner of segregation. Muslims will live among their low castes and they will pray and eat together.


Muslim caste divide

Muslims of the village are divided on caste lines and have been fighting for a long time over a separate mosque and burial ground. Dispute over the land on which the backward caste Muslims had set up their mosque had led to the incident.

Muslim Dalits

Dalit Saleem, an activist from Hyderabad, spoke about the discrimination that 'low' caste Muslims are faced with, even from their own co-religionists in many parts of the country. He said that while Islam preaches equality, in India this equality is limited only to the precincts of the mosque. He also stressed the need for modernisation of madrasas, claiming that a large section of madrasa students are from Muslim OBC and Dalit families, and that because of the restricted sort of education that they receive in madrasas their employment prospects are bleak.

He pointed out that while 'upper' caste Muslims routinely use the argument that Islam does not recognise caste to counter demands for reservations for OBC and Dalit Muslims, numerous 'ulama have, in their writings, misinterpreted Islam to argue the claim of the superiority of the so-called 'high' caste of ashraf Muslims and to denigrate the 'lower' castes. 'Muslim OBCs and Dalits', he forcefully asserted, 'now refuse to continue to be the slaves of the so-called upper castes. We will not vote as per their dictates but, instead, will support any political party or leader that is genuinely committed to our rights and demands'.

Two Circles

Muslims established superior status for themselves as ashraf or noble on the basis of their foreign descent, while descendants of indigenous converts are commonly referred as ajlaf or ‘lowly’. Some Islamic jurists too, deviating from Islamic teachings, in the name of kufu i.e. parity in marriage between the parties, legitimize castes. Even the Muslim law of marriage recognizes the doctrine of kufu in all vital respects including social status and descent, which, in India, means nothing but casteism.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby RamaY » 01 Jan 2010 13:03

shiv wrote:Health is a state subject. Remember that the central government only controls certain areas like defence, foreign affairs etc. Indian states have autonomy in many others affairs including (as we saw after 26/11, in internal security and police forces. So each state spends what it can afford and depending on the level of corruption present. Some states are better, some worse.

Karnataka was one of the first states that handed over education to the private sector with "capitation fee" medical (and engg) colleges by the dozen. Karnataka now boasts the largest number of engineering and medical (probably) seats. Karnataka looks after its own children and ensures that a maximum number gets these seats. But the problem is quality. When recruiting Infosys does not care too much whether the engineering graduate is from IIT or from a third rate college when jobs must be filled.

In the case of medicine the Medical Council has to crack down on third rate colleges. I am sure some medical councils would love to be bribed into allowing every college to survive but foreign medical councils (US/UK) would then reject Indian students outright - so a basic minimum standard has to be maintained. For a basic minimum standard to be maintained there have to be both staff and patients. Now when you build a new hospital the hospital has no patients and it may take a decade for the hospital to actually start getting enough patients. Students have to be taught even in that period (by sending them to other hospitals etc). But a lot of the nonsense that goes on has been discussed in the education thread and is OT here.


Shiv-ji

Those days of "process of elimination" (where top 10% of the class are eliminated from campus recruitment offers) are gone! nowadays the top companies go for only selected engg. schools (my company used to have a list of 75 engg colleges for campus selections) for campus selections. Graduates from other schools must go for rigorous selection process.

From my personal experience - I have had many (50-100) team members who were from IITs and I am surprised at the quality of their analytical, programming, and soft skills. Perhaps the reason is that the top 5 companies select IIT graduates irrespective of their graduation-branch. I know of many simple science graduates performing better than an IIT MTech Geography type graduates.

That said; My proposal is to increase number of “quality” medical colleges is –

Grant any super-specialty hospital with >200 bed capacity to establish a captive medical college provided that:

- The hospital is located at least 50KM outside top 100 cities in India (the list of top 100 cities can be prepared with minimal effort).
- The hospital has at least 5 specializations.
- 60% of hospital patients receive free treatment falling under “Arogya Sree” scheme (Arogya Sree is a general medical insurance scheme covered by Govt. Andhra Pradesh for white-ration card holders. This scheme offers 100% medical care and treatment up to 3 Lakhs, if I remember correctly, per incident).
- 60% medical seats will be allocated to locals. 20% of seats are allocated for out of state students. Management quota will have 20% of seats. The state govt will determine the fee structure for local and out-of-state student quotas.
- 2-3 students are formed into a group and will be assigned to provide basic medical care to a selected village. Students must provide at least 1000 hours of village service to graduate.

IMO, every reasonable size town in India can be financially feasible to establish a super specialty hospital and a captive medical college.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Mahendra » 01 Jan 2010 15:53

Slightly expanding the scope of this thread
India to overtake China in 2020:

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Mahendra » 01 Jan 2010 16:01

Rama Y ji

Your scheme is not financially viable
Private Medical schools in India are purely money making businesses, the 20% management quota you suggest is way too low for the colleges to be profitable
By twisting your guidelines hundreds of medical colleges will mushroom all over India dragging the "standards" down the Pakistan
Graduates from these medical colleges will not be able to compete with graduates from prooper medical colleges

PS : I'm scooting off from here before the good Hakim gets his lungi in a twist and cries thread hijack :D

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Re: Know Your India

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2010 18:44

Airavat wrote:[
Any data on this? And do these government schools in Hindu dominated areas only admit Hindus or all communities that seek modern education?
No data but that is a funny question. I don't know how many government schools provide a "modern education". But they do provide some education


Ah, so you know the difference between Ahmedias and Sunnis. Do other people living in the locality not know the difference?
None of the people I meet, with whom I can bring up the subject seem to know. Funnily enough you seem to perceive some differences yourself. Do you believe there is anything worth differentiating?

To turn the question around, do Muslims know the difference between the various Hindu communities or is it just: A Hindu is a Hindu is a Hindu?


I have absolutely no idea.
Last edited by shiv on 01 Jan 2010 19:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 01 Jan 2010 19:20

Let me tell you an OT story. Many moons ago, there was a patient, and he had a terrible habit. He would go to a doctor. Doctor will examine him, will tell him a lot about characteristics of the diseases he had and explain how he got those diseases. And doctors will also tell him how he could have prevented those diseases he had. And the patient had a very irritating habit. At the end, the patient would ask the doctors "what medicine do you suggest"? Due to his irritating habit, every doctor in town started making fun of him, and some even demanded that he should be expelled from the town. But the patient never improved. And like "kutte ki dum", he would always keep asking doctors to prescribe medicines to the diseases that doctors would characterize.

Now lets come back to this The Great Whinathon thread.

====

Dear All,

What legislations , Executive Notifications do you propose to solve the following problems you all mentioned

shiv: Here is a graph of how India has arrested its population growth :roll:

shiv: India has a doctor population ratio of 1 doctor for 1700 people. Most European countries have a doctor for every 300 people. That means India has 450,000 doctors but needs (today) over 3 million. India is currently producing about 20,000 medical graduates a year. In 10 years, accounting for an increase in production India may have produced 300,000 doctors from this bunch. To catch up we have to produce 2.4 million doctors in 10 years, which is ten times the current rate. Given our current system of expensive colleges producing super specialists India will still be far behind in 2020 unless something drastic is done.

shiv: India has 125 policemen per lakh population. Developed countries have 225 policemen per lakh. That means we have to create 1 million extra policemen's jobs to catch up. Here is a list of teh current status of police
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... _Ratio.htm

shiv: 200 million Indians do not have safe drinking water. In any case India is near the bottom of the charts in per capita water availability - see this link where India ranks 123rd out of 169 countries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_w ... ailability

shiv: Indians use 200 million tons of firewood per year for cooking alone. Mostly in rural areas. In urban areas about 30% use LPG (17%) and or Kerosene. But rural households use firewood or other biomass and that adds massively to deforestation, pollution, lung disease among woman and low weight babies.

shiv: India has about 640,000 villages, but 80,000 of them do not have electricity. About 400 million Indian do not have access to regular reliable electric power supply. Needles to say that this also means that refrigeration for food and medicines is absent. Perishables will rot soon and diabetics get no insulin.


And above were all non-urgent problems. :P

shiv wrote:Here is yet another urgent priority for India:

http://www.gits4u.com/envo/envo4.htm

a rapidly growing population that has taken the country from 300 million people in 1947 to more than one billion people today is putting a strain on the environment, infrastructure, and the country’s natural resources. Industrial pollution, soil erosion, deforestation, rapid industrialization, urbanization, and land degradation are all worsening problems.

About 45 per cent of India's land is degraded, air pollution is increasing in all its cities, it is losing its rare plants and animals more rapidly than before and about one-third of its urban population now lives in slums, says the State of Environment Report India 2009 brought out by the government.

Eighty-five industrial clusters in India are toxic: 85% of big industrial clusters in India are health hazards as air, water and land pollution levels are not fit for human habitants. ... the environmental pollution levels in 10 major industrial hubs had reached a “very alarmingly high” level. This list includes Ankleshwar and Vapi in Gujarat , Ghaziabad and Singrauli in Uttar Pradesh, Korba (Chhattisgarh), Chandrapur (Maharashtra), Ludhiana (Punjab), Vellore (Tamil Nadu), Bhiwadi (Rajasthan) and Angul Talcher (Orissa).

India’s environmental problems are exacerbated by its heavy reliance on coal for power generation. Coal supplies more than half of the country’s energy needs and is used for nearly three-quarters of electricity generation .... Air quality is worst in the big cities like Kolkata, Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, etc.

Bangalore holds the title of being the asthma capital of the country. Studies estimate that 10 per cent of Bangalore’s 60 lakh population and over 50 per cent of its children below 18 years suffer from air pollution- related ailments. .... The effects of air pollution are obvious: rice crop yields in southern India are falling as brown clouds block out more and more sunlight. :eek:

Fully 80 percent of urban waste in India ends up in the country's rivers, and unchecked urban growth across the country combined with poor government oversight means the problem is only getting worse. A growing number of bodies of water in India are unfit for human use, and in the River Ganga, holy to the country's 82 percent Hindu majority, is dying slowly due to unchecked pollution.

New Delhi's body of water is little more than a flowing garbage dump, with fully 57 percent of the city's waste finding its way to the Yamuna. It is that three billion liters of waste are pumped into Delhi's Yamuna (River Yamuna) each day. Only 55 percent of the 15 million Delhi residents are connected to the city's sewage system. The remainder flush their bath water, waste water and just about everything else down pipes and into drains, most of them empty into the Yamuna. According to the Centre for Science and Environment, between 75 and 80 percent of the river's pollution is the result of raw sewage. Combined with industrial runoff, the garbage thrown into the river and it totals over 3 billion liters of waste per day. Nearly 20 billion rupees, or almost US $500 million, has been spent on various clean up efforts.


The litany goes on and on and on and on ....

Amitava:
The number of judges, per million people, are
* 107 USA
* 75.02 Canada
* 57.07 Australia
* 50.09 UK
* 10.05 India
he data is a few years old,
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/op/2002/0 ... 060200.htm

btw, there are apparently 210 thousand judges in China (ratio above 160 :( ) though the Chief Grand Justice says:


brihaspati wrote:Food supply is a critical issue. Especially the capacity of the land to increase production any further on a long term maintainability basis. Some countries have started buying up/leasing productive land of other countries. I don't know whether that can be on the cards.


Now I will end up citing all posts on this thread. Now as you must have guessed, I am that irritating patient and you all are the doctors. So like that irritating patient, let me ask you all once again : What legislations, ENs do you all propose to reduce these problems
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 01 Jan 2010 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 01 Jan 2010 19:33

vera_k wrote:So it's mostly a question of unrealistic standards imposed by the medical regulators?


There are two problems

1. First, as you said, unrealistic standards imposed by All India Medical Council

2. Second, when someone like myself would ask "what should we do to solve this problem of poor plus excessive regulation", many (not you) would say "ban this guy !!" IOW, extreme hostility towards working on solutions coupled with intense passion to discuss the problem is the reason why MCI is running amok with no control over it and why medical education in India is worsening, becoming more and more expensive and not growing as per the need.

===

vera_k wrote:So it's mostly a question of unrealistic standards imposed by the medical regulators?


So what solution do you propose?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 01 Jan 2010 20:57

Shiv :

Indian interest thread is locked . So here is a reply to your post in neta-babu thread

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2180&p=799094#p799094

(Admind : I will delete this post in 3 days)

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Umrao Das » 01 Jan 2010 21:05

What is this garbage of
Muslim Dalit
Christain Dalit
Hindu Dalit
Sikh Dalit
Budhist Dalit

Once converted ther is no more dalit period.

just like DDM a new acronymn of DDM is Dum Dork Memeber ( yes I am the dalit leader of that clan)

Next thing I want to see is
Dalit Brahmin caste
yes we do have that kind
Dalit Brahmins are those who do only
Creamation Cermonies
Shradha Cermonies

Super Duper Brahmins are those who go into Administrative Jobs (high end RR class)

Next are Brahmins who own and run Business Iyer restaurants, Iyengar bakeries etc.
( These are like MBenz M class series)

Next are the Brahmins who become machinists Foreman, dealing with machines

SO here we are in Multi cusine kind which is very poular in India
Multi cusine
Multi treatment
Multi training
Multi apartments
all multi...

First thing first
We have enough fundamental rights
We have enough reservations
We have enough rules
most importantantly we are blessed with abundant supply of fools.

So lets charter some fundamental duties.
Respect Law
Obey law
impliment laws

Yes Shiv ji like MMS and Rahul baba (Desh ka neta) is brilliant when he advocates first right of Muslims to resources like MMS

Whats so new about this the constitution Guarantees this
just implement Directive principles of State policy. that would make us super powers.

Another law or Schedule for castes is only worth the Charmin roll.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby RamaY » 02 Jan 2010 01:00

Taking it to Education dhagaa...
Last edited by RamaY on 02 Jan 2010 01:37, edited 1 time in total.


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