Know Your India

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Vipul
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Re: Know Your India

Postby Vipul » 04 Feb 2011 21:57

We, the people.

Counting 1.2 billion Indians is a herculean task. Rrishi Raote describes the incredible logistics of Census 2011

Over the night of February 28 and March 1, a small and businesslike army will spread across the land. To locate their targets, this army will look into municipal pipes, under flyovers and bridges, on footpaths, along railway lines, up dark staircases, around places of worship — everywhere the legions of the “houseless” come to rest. Other elusive targets will have been captured on the preceding day, including tourists in hotels and every human on every ship that will be in Indian territorial waters at midnight.

For 00:00 on March 1, 2011, is the moment of reckoning. The Office of the Registrar General & Census Commissioner has to find out exactly how many human beings there are in the territory of India at that moment, Indians as well as foreigners (except diplomats because they reside in enclaves that are not a part of India; by the same logic, Indian diplomats abroad are included).

The Indian census is the biggest exercise of its kind, performed once a decade since 1881. The first, though partial, Indian census was in 1872; the Census of 2011 is the 15th in modern times, and the seventh since Independence. There are too many pieces in the jigsaw puzzle that need to fall into place.

The headcount will be done by 2.7 million enumerators — teachers drawn from government-run primary schools — in three weeks between February 9 and 28. From March 1 to 5, they will do the rounds one more time to ensure that the data is accurate. Three weeks after that, around the end of March, Registrar General & Census Commissioner C Chandramouli will declare the provisional results. Full and final results will come a year and a half later. The plethora of data generated by Chandramouli’s team — numbers, maps, atlases et al — will be purchased by policy planners, research institutes, analysts and corporations. “Hardly any of the books that we had come out with after the 2001 Census is left,” says Chandramouli with quiet pride.

Teachers are chosen for enumeration because they are the only people who can get inside every household in the country and ask personal questions. About half the enumerators are women. In towns and cities, women enumerators often face harassment. So they are required to go from door to door with a colleague or family. It’s a fair bit of work though. There are more than 300 million households in the country, which means each enumerator has to make 125-150 calls in three weeks. For this work, each of them will get paid up to Rs 6,500.

The 2011 Census has three parts. The first was the housing census done between April and September 2010 when the same enumerators collected data for the National Population Register, a record of the citizens of India. About 30 million houses were counted then. This data will be given to the Unique Identity Authority of India which will remove all duplication and generate a unique identity number. Finally, an identity card for all Indians will be readied. The second is the headcount. The third will be the caste census, the first since 1931. The Union Cabinet has said that it should be done between June and September this year; now it is up to the states to decide when they want to get it done. The housing census has been linked to the headcount (people will be asked if they participated in that round too), which will help answer questions like how many PhDs live in houses without latrines.

The government has allocated Rs 2,200 crore for the 2011 Census, which brings the per capita cost to Rs 18. Chandramouli says this is the lowest in the world; in the United States, it costs almost $50 (around Rs 2,500). The size, of course, is unmatched — the enumerators will have to go to 8,011 towns and 649,989 villages in 640 districts of the country. Aboriginal islands will be accessed with help from some designated “contact” people. In Sentinel Islands in the Andamans, where the tribes are still hostile, the enumerators will throw coconuts and red cloth into the sea. Once these hit the shores, the tribesmen will come out to gather these “presents”. From afar, the enumerators will take video films, come back and freeze the frames, and count their numbers. Forest dwellers, those who do not live in villages, will be counted separately by forest officers.

States frequently change the boundaries of districts and tehsils, often for political reasons. This can create havoc with the census. So, on December 31, 2009, an advisory was sent out by Chandramouli to all states to desist from altering boundaries. With the housing census done, Chandramouli’s office has digitised the map of every village in the country and every town. Within towns, every ward has been mapped. In addition, the maps of all the 33 state capitals have been done using satellite imagery — down to the last structure. Any construction that didn’t look like a house from above was physically checked by the enumerators. This is invaluable information for town-planners and others like metro service operators and road builders.

For the headcount, 5.4 million instruction manuals were printed in 18 languages, and 340 million schedules (forms for the headcount) in 16 languages. For this, about 12,000 tonnes of paper was required. This is no ordinary paper — it has to be scanned and read by software. “We didn’t have specifications for this kind of paper in the country,” says Chandramouli. Finally, a clutch of paper mills such as Hindustan Paper Corporation, West Coast Paper Mills and Bindal Paper came forward. The other problem was to locate presses which could print this volume (340 million prints in three months) digitally. Each form is unique — it has a number and bar code plus the name of the district and tehsil it is meant for. Five or six such presses were assigned the work. Chandramouli’s team labelled the packs at the presses and handed them over to the Department of Posts for final delivery to 17,000 addresses across the country. (Once the enumeration is over, the department of posts will collect these forms at every village and town, and bring them to the offices of the Registrar General & Census Commissioner.)

Chandramouli says that most of the schedules have either reached their destination or are on the move — not without some goof-ups and accidents. Thus, addresses got mixed up in Uttar Pradesh, the consignment fell into a river near Kalimpong and the recent strike in Karnataka brought truck movement to a standstill in the state. Protestors in Jammu & Kashmir destroyed the forms for the National Population Register and the house census. Those records have to be recreated. The headcount in snow-bound villages of Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand was completed between September 11 and October 5, 2010. Births and deaths after that will go unrecorded, though Chandramouli thinks the numbers won’t be significant.

The real problem is with the around 200 villages in Chhattisgarh and West Bengal where Naxals have given a call to boycott the Census. “In Jharkhand, Orissa [the other Naxal-affected states] and Jammu & Kashmir, we expect 100 per cent coverage,” says Chandramouli. In all probability, the villages in Chhattisgarh and West Bengal will go uncounted. The numbers cannot be extrapolated from 2001 because birth and death rates in these villages are not known. To encourage people to come out and get counted, Chandramouli’s office has appointed Mudra to do a media campaign. Sachin Tendulkar and Priyanka Chopra will support it.

Significant changes have been made in the 2011 Census schedules. For the first time, apart from male and female, respondents can tick a third option — others. They will have to give their date of birth and not just the age. “People have the tendency to report ages around some favourite numbers that end with five, zero or even digits. This results in heaping around these numbers,” says Chandramouli. “To make the data rich, we are asking the date of birth as well as the age.” In marital status, separated and divorced have different codes. The codes for disability have been raised from five to eight. In the work category, a third slab has been introduced between those who work for more than six months and those who work less than six months — those who work between three and six months. This will capture the beneficiaries of redistributive programmes such as the Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme which offers jobs for 100 days in a year. And prostitutes have been taken out of the category of beggars; a new category titled others has been created where people whose income cannot be categorised under legal means will be included.

To scan the schedules, the census office has bought about 60 high-speed duplex Kodak i780 scanners of the kind that are usually used in Western postal departments and hospitals. Each scanner costs about $30,000 (around Rs 14 lakh) and can handle 130 A3-size, double-sided forms per minute (or 130,000 a day). Kodak says the order was for machines to capture “270 million forms in less than four months, working three shifts a day” in Phase 1, and the same number in Phase 2. To turn handwritten entries into data at such speed, the census office has bought eFlow 4.5 Intelligent Character Recognition software from Top Image Systems of Israel. Operators from HCL Infosystems of India will run the machines. State-owned BSNL has been asked to identify a call centre where the uncounted can call to get included.

How accurate is the headcount? Once the final numbers are out, each state goes back to recheck the numbers. The omission rate was 1.8 per cent in 1981, 1.9 per cent in 1991 and 2.3 per cent in 2001. (It jumped in 2001, says Chandramouli, because it was the first time that forms were digitised.) This year, too, he expects the omission rate to be around 2 per cent — the internationally-accepted norm.

Data users, on their part, make two points. One, the census office takes a lot of time to release the final numbers; as a result, they have to make do with old data. And two, the headcount in the urban areas is not accurate. “The census is not so good at the urban level. It hasn’t been integrated with PIN codes,” says Laveesh Bhandari of Indicus Analytics. Chandramouli admits that this is a problem — working couples are invariably not at home, gatekeepers often turn the enumerators away. Still, the count is on.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 15 Feb 2011 08:35

x-post from Indian interests thread -

Amartya Sen talking some sense:

India, China growth race 'silly', says Nobel winner

(AFP) – 15 hours ago

NEW DELHI — India's leading economist, Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen, dismissed on Monday the "silly" obsession of comparing the economic growth rates of China and India.

In a lengthy critique of the practice, Sen argued that New Delhi was far behind in the growth race, but more importantly it lagged in other criteria that showed real living standards were far inferior in India.

"Despite the interest in this subject (of comparing India's eight-percent growth to China's 10 percent)... this is surely a silly focus," Sen wrote in The Hindu.

Growth as estimated by gross national product (GNP) was an arbitrary measurement, he said, and "the lives that people are able to lead -- what ultimately interests people most -- are only indirectly and partially influenced by the rates of overall economic growth".

In an unflattering portrait of his country, Sen drew on data from World Development Reports of the World Bank and Human Development Reports of the United Nations to show China far ahead on most criteria.

Life expectancy at birth in China was 73.5 years compared with 64.4 years in India; Infant mortality rate is 50 per thousand in India and just 17 in China, and the under-five mortality rate is 66 for Indians and 19 for the Chinese.

China's adult literacy rate is 94 percent, compared with India's 65 percent, and mean years of schooling in India is 4.4 years, compared with 7.5 years in China, he said.

"Almost half of our children are undernourished compared with a very tiny proportion in China," Sen added.

"Comparing ourselves with China in these really important matters would be a very good perspective, and they can both inspire us and give us illumination about what to do -- and what not to do," he said.

India's finance minister and prime minister routinely refer to their target of double-digit economic growth, which they say is required to make a dent in India's enormous poverty numbers.

India and China, which both have billion-plus populations, are often grouped together by analysts and pundits as Asia's emerging powerhouses despite their different levels of development and diplomatic influence.

Sen said that growth in GNP, a statistical measure of economic output by citizens of a country, was enriching many Indians, but the focus on the new affluent middle classes obscured the larger picture.

"Those gains are, of course, good, and there is nothing wrong in celebrating their better lives through economic growth... but the exaggerated concentration on their lives, which the media tend often to display, gives an incomplete picture of what is happening to Indians in general," he said.

Sen won the Nobel prize for economics in 1998.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... c1a65e.c41


Another point is that instead of talking about Indian democracy, we need to internalize the idea that India falls in the category of "pseudo-democracies", that is, countries that go through the motions of elections, but in which the electoral process is devoid of transparency and verifiability.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ajaytripathi » 15 Feb 2011 14:02

Another point is that instead of talking about miracle chinese growth, we need to internalize the idea that Chinese statistics falls in the category of white lies, that is, china goes through the motions of collecting data, but the statistical process is devoid of transparency and verifiability

http://www.chinastakes.com/2010/3/lies- ... stics.html

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 15 Feb 2011 22:33

ajaytripathi wrote:Another point is that instead of talking about miracle chinese growth, we need to internalize the idea that Chinese statistics falls in the category of white lies, that is, china goes through the motions of collecting data, but the statistical process is devoid of transparency and verifiability

http://www.chinastakes.com/2010/3/lies- ... stics.html


You may well be right. But if Indian statistics are reliable, and they say that 50% of the children are malnourished, then that is a cause for concern, irrespective of the reliability of Chinese statistics.

Moreover, the poverty is caused by people like Kalmadi and the 2Gs, who grab power through non-transparent, non-verifiable elections.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Feb 2011 22:37

amongst underlying causes - indian politicians have no real vision of leading the people to betterment, because they simply cannot visualise what betterment might look like. perhaps most of them don't care

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Gus » 15 Feb 2011 23:35

They do have a vision for betterment for the people. They just limit the people to their family, party loyals, caste maybe.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ajaytripathi » 16 Feb 2011 09:50

Pranav wrote:You may well be right. But if Indian statistics are reliable, and they say that 50% of the children are malnourished, then that is a cause for concern, irrespective of the reliability of Chinese statistics.

Such statistics are manufactured by communist statisticians to run their livelihood, they use these figures to get aid from their masters in the west while masking their true purpose of using this aid to further their subversive activities, and at the same time presenting a chance to china to blame democracy as the cause of poverty. This helps them to keep their slaves under control.


Pranav wrote:Moreover, the poverty is caused by people like Kalmadi and the 2Gs, who grab power through non-transparent, non-verifiable elections.

True to a extent, but kalmadi, raja, balwa are bacchas when compared to the black widow which leaves a deadly bite with her institutionalized corrupt party sucking[stealing] all the juices[money] of its victim.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ashi » 16 Feb 2011 10:17

ajaytripathi wrote:Such statistics are manufactured by communist statisticians to run their livelihood, they use these figures to get aid from their masters in the west while masking their true purpose of using this aid to further their subversive activities, and at the same time presenting a chance to china to blame democracy as the cause of poverty. This helps them to keep their slaves under control.


Such an old argument that can go back a decade in this forum. From "fake chinese stats", "does china matter" to "chinese banks are on the blink of collapse" ...

Please support your theory of manufactured statistics and "slaves" given the facts that we are seeing an explosive internal consumption (e.g: car sales market in China overtook US market last year), and China holding the world's largest foreign reserves.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ajaytripathi » 16 Feb 2011 11:08

Just because they are old doesnt make them false, Your next premier Mr Li has exposed the truth of chinese statistics, they are falsified to ensure social stability and create harmonious society to lull the masses into believing communist party is looking after them. The chinese situation is not new, all communist nations publish such fake stats, but in the case of china the humongous nature of the lie that is being told is taking truth manufacturing by communists to the next level.

China's GDP is "man-made," unreliable: top leader

China's GDP figures are "man-made" and therefore unreliable, the man who is expected to be the country's next head of government said in 2007, according to U.S. diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

Li Keqiang, head of the Communist Party in northeastern Liaoning province at the time, was unusually candid in his assessment of local economic data at a dinner with then-U.S. Ambassador to China Clark Randt, according to a confidential memo sent after the meeting and published on the WikiLeaks website.

The U.S. cable reported that Li, who is now a vice premier, focused on just three data points to evaluate Liaoning's economy: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending.

"By looking at these three figures, Li said he can measure with relative accuracy the speed of economic growth. All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are 'for reference only,' he said smiling," the cable added.

Li is widely expected to succeed Wen Jiabao as premier in early 2013, a position that will put him in charge of policy making in the world's second-biggest economy.

A news official in the Chinese foreign ministry declined to comment on the specific cable and referred to comments last week in which a ministry spokesman called on the United States to resolve issues related to the leaks.

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy to China was not immediately available.

Chinese economic numbers, especially at the provincial level and lower, have long been viewed with suspicion by analysts.

"That China's GDP is not reliable, especially for local GDP, that is nothing new," said an economist with a foreign bank who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of discussing top national leaders.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... 7D20101206

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Re: Know Your India

Postby somnath » 16 Feb 2011 11:14

^^^ There is no doubt that Chinese performance has been stupendous..and no amount of carping about data quality should mask the admiration for the effort..

Having said that, there is an inherent intent in constituent units of totalitarian states to present better numbers - because the career progress of the apparatchik is dependent on the numbers...It happened in USSR as well, where plant managers routinely presented inflated production numbers to the Politburo..In democratic states, there is an inherent tendency to "downplay" the numbers by constitutent units, as share of resources typically tend to go to the most "disadvantaged"..Hence, one will see states falling over each other to get districts declared "naxal infested"...Or presenting Human Development data in as pessimistic a light as possible, as it makes for a better case for higher central funds...

Yasheng Hunag is a long time critic of both the Chinese model and Chinese data..There are others as well..

Here is one...Enjoy!

http://uvacrisis.com/Lectures_PDF/China ... Dragon.pdf

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ashi » 16 Feb 2011 11:46

somnath wrote:^^^ There is no doubt that Chinese performance has been stupendous..and no amount of carping about data quality should mask the admiration for the effort..

Having said that, there is an inherent intent in constituent units of totalitarian states to present better numbers - because the career progress of the apparatchik is dependent on the numbers...It happened in USSR as well, where plant managers routinely presented inflated production numbers to the Politburo..In democratic states, there is an inherent tendency to "downplay" the numbers by constitutent units, as share of resources typically tend to go to the most "disadvantaged"..Hence, one will see states falling over each other to get districts declared "naxal infested"...Or presenting Human Development data in as pessimistic a light as possible, as it makes for a better case for higher central funds...

Yasheng Hunag is a long time critic of both the Chinese model and Chinese data..There are others as well..

Here is one...Enjoy!

http://uvacrisis.com/Lectures_PDF/China ... Dragon.pdf


Comparing USSR to China is invalid. China has an extremely competitive market economy. Even their state owned businesses competes fiercely with each others.

Again, all those "theory" just don't add up to explain the pheonomal improvement in the last few decades, something that is unseen in human history before.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby somnath » 16 Feb 2011 12:03

ashi wrote:Comparing USSR to China is invalid. China has an extremely competitive market economy. Even their state owned businesses competes fiercely with each others.

Again, all those "theory" just don't add up to explain the pheonomal improvement in the last few decades, something that is unseen in human history before.


Ashi, there is no gainsaying the gains made by China, I mentioned that first up..The issue is different..Its not a one-sided "miracle" story...

Competitive? You have any clue what the books of the major Chinese banks (esp the big 4) look like? Filled with SOE loans that under even 20th century Indian regs would be termed as bad (and by 21st century regs as positively toxic)? Or how enormous cities (mind you not houses, or properties, but CITIES). funded by these banks, that have no inhabitants?

So cut out the self indulgence....Democratic societies tend to focus too much on their weaknesses, totalitarian ones too little..

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ashi » 16 Feb 2011 12:18

somnath wrote:
ashi wrote:Comparing USSR to China is invalid. China has an extremely competitive market economy. Even their state owned businesses competes fiercely with each others.

Again, all those "theory" just don't add up to explain the pheonomal improvement in the last few decades, something that is unseen in human history before.


Ashi, there is no gainsaying the gains made by China, I mentioned that first up..The issue is different..Its not a one-sided "miracle" story...

Competitive? You have any clue what the books of the major Chinese banks (esp the big 4) look like? Filled with SOE loans that under even 20th century Indian regs would be termed as bad (and by 21st century regs as positively toxic)? Or how enormous cities (mind you not houses, or properties, but CITIES). funded by these banks, that have no inhabitants?

So cut out the self indulgence....Democratic societies tend to focus too much on their weaknesses, totalitarian ones too little..


Banks? Back in a few years all kind of preaching and all sorts of doomsday prediction of China's banks. Who have bank troubles now and who is laughing?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby vina » 16 Feb 2011 13:34

Banks? Back in a few years all kind of preaching and all sorts of doomsday prediction of China's banks. Who have bank troubles now and who is laughing?


Atleast they are doing something about it! China is aping Japan, which did the original head in the sand, no problem thing. Japan simply never recovered from their real estate bubble driven excess. US will because it restructures. What will happen when the bubble bursts in China ? Or is there something from Mao that says that there can be no bubbles and hence cant burst in China ?

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Re: Know Your India

Postby somnath » 16 Feb 2011 19:52

^^The Chinese leaders are cognizant of the issue...6-7 years ago they had devised a smart way of tackling it - ask international b anks for advice in lieu of small stakes in the big Chinese banks..Didnt really work out..And the stimulus during the financial crisis has also exacerbated the situation...

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 17 Feb 2011 09:40

ajaytripathi wrote:Such statistics are manufactured by communist statisticians to run their livelihood ...


Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, here is a report about life in the Financial Capital of India:

2/3rds of Mumbaikars walk a mile for water
Sukhada Tatke, TNN, Feb 17, 2011, 02.52am IST

MUMBAI: Mumbai is proud of its status as the country's richest city, but shamefully, two-thirds of its residents have to slog away for hours a day to procure as basic a necessity as water.

According to a study by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences (Tiss), a majority of the city's population, which lives in slums, wastes the workday or school time in collecting potable water.

Women are the worst sufferers, 87.5% of whom are engaged in the perilous task. Perilous because every day, they travel on an average 1.5km to the source of distribution and come back to their shanties bearing 40kg buckets on their head.

Such a load can be harmful for the spine, leading to deformities and arthritis, not to speak of other injuries. The arduous task also effectively reduces their calorie intake, as much energy is expended in the activity.

The study was carried out to understand the impact of irregular water supply on people who live in slums established after 1995, to which the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation ( BMC) does not supply water. It covered a population of about 2 lakh people in 21 slum communities across the city.

The statistics are alarming: 35% of adults skip work and 69% of children skip school to collect water; 81% bring home water, carrying the buckets on the head, needing on average three hours to do so. The people end up skipping work or school since the supply comes between 8 am and 2 pm. While 81% buy water, only 19% have access to tap water at home.

The water doesn't come cheap. The cost is Rs 5 for 35 litres, making the average monthly expenditure Rs 600 for a daily consumption of 150 litres. This is a huge sum for families earning Rs 3,500 a month on average.

"People have to buy water from middlemen, who procure it illegally," said Simpreet Singh of the National Alliance of People's Movement. The slum dwellers pay 30 times more than the prescribed rate for water.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 511798.cms

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ajaytripathi » 17 Feb 2011 10:53

Pranav wrote:
ajaytripathi wrote:Such statistics are manufactured by communist statisticians to run their livelihood ...


Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, here is a report about life in the Financial Capital of India:

According to a study by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences (Tiss)


:roll:
http://fconline.foundationcenter.org/ma ... unit=India

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 17 Feb 2011 11:22

ajaytripathi wrote:According to a study by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences (Tiss)
:roll:
http://fconline.foundationcenter.org/ma ... unit=India


Irrespective of the grants TISS may be getting, if you want to defend the performance of our corrupt rulers and challenge such studies, you would need something better than ad-hominem arguments. In fact, from one's own experience, one finds quite believable the statistics about the deficit in drinking water supply.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby ajaytripathi » 17 Feb 2011 12:05

Pranav wrote:
ajaytripathi wrote:According to a study by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences (Tiss)
:roll:
http://fconline.foundationcenter.org/ma ... unit=India


Irrespective of the grants TISS may be getting, if you want to defend the performance of our corrupt rulers and challenge such studies, you would need something better than ad-hominem arguments. In fact, from one's own experience, one finds quite believable the statistics about the deficit in drinking water supply.


You are confused. My point, communist statisticians use such studies to earn money.
Reliability of such studies is always suspect, not ruling out there are deficiencies in water supply system.
My defense of corrupt rulers is a figment of your imagination.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranav » 17 Feb 2011 18:11

ajaytripathi wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Irrespective of the grants TISS may be getting, if you want to defend the performance of our corrupt rulers and challenge such studies, you would need something better than ad-hominem arguments. In fact, from one's own experience, one finds quite believable the statistics about the deficit in drinking water supply.


You are confused. My point, communist statisticians use such studies to earn money.
Reliability of such studies is always suspect, not ruling out there are deficiencies in water supply system.
My defense of corrupt rulers is a figment of your imagination.


What you are using is an ad-hominem argument. Unless you can find something more substantive, broad allegations of fraud against TISS have little value.

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby SBajwa » 20 Nov 2011 08:04

supreme court lawyer talking about India and major judicial issues

[youtube]t2oHKeKpTb8&[/youtube]

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby Jaspreet » 20 Nov 2011 10:59

Thank you Bajwa for posting this video.

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby shyam » 20 Nov 2011 14:29

SBajwa wrote:supreme court lawyer talking about India and major judicial issues

[youtube]t2oHKeKpTb8&[/youtube]

I'm not sure what this person is trying to do. To me, it appears that he is trying to exploit the geniune grievances of Sikhs about 1984 for something far beyond.

Check what he says at 16:45. "In 2002, 3500 Muslims have been massacred in the streets of Ahmedabad and Baroda in Gujarat". He is lawyer who tracks these cases, and he knows the numbers. What exactly is he trying to convey and achieve by sprouting these numbers?

sum
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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby sum » 20 Nov 2011 14:31

^^ Shri.Colin Gonsalves is a very well known "human rights wallah" who somehow seems to turn up to appeal on behalf of real shady folks...So, everything he says must be taken in with a pinch of salt and after cross-verifying.

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby svinayak » 20 Nov 2011 23:28

That age group who are exposed to the 'leftism' have a problem. The people born between 1940-1961 who were active in the leftist movement are the most anti India

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Nov 2011 04:34

Why is this in the 'Nation on the March' thread? :-?

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby saip » 21 Nov 2011 06:51

How is this related to 'Nation on the March'?

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby SBajwa » 21 Nov 2011 07:11

It is good that Mr. Colin gets recognized here for long term!!! To me this is India shining and Marching!!! Plus he is from India's Supreme court!!!!

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Re: A Nation on the March

Postby JE Menon » 21 Nov 2011 18:02

Exactly... I see good in it. This is a SC Justice of India speaking about terrible events at a forum where some of those who faced such injustices may have been present, and this is presented as a good thing on a Web forum dedicated to the defence of India. Shows how India can absorb, internalise, reflect upon and eventually act upon multiple points of view and often diametrically opposing perspectives. We cannot expect people to say only what we want to hear.

Now, that said, this is a thread for links only, not for discussion, so please take the chat on the subject elsewhere on the forum if possible.

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Re: Know Your India

Postby Pranay » 11 Dec 2011 02:10

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16051168

The link above has the picture of Maharaja Sayyaji Rao III showing the British Monarch his back...

As Delhi prepares to mark 100 years as India's capital, a previously lost diary written by an Anglo-Irish aristocrat has provided a fascinating insight into an extraordinary but largely forgotten act of dissent against colonial rule by an Indian maharajah.

Lilah Wingfield witnessed the moment 100 years ago when, in front of 100,000 spectators, the Gaekwar of Baroda, otherwise known as Maharajah Sayyaji Rao III, bowed improperly when presenting himself before the British monarch, then turned his back disrespectfully and walked away.

It was an audacious act of defiance at an event that contemporary observers have described as a thousand times grander than royal weddings over the past 60 years in London.

The 1911 Delhi durbar, or mass assembly - when George V was proclaimed Emperor of India - was the only such assembly to be attended by a British monarch in person.


Each Indian ruler or "native prince" was expected to perform proper obeisance to the King-Emperor by bowing three times before him, then backing away without turning.

The maharajah not only ignored royal etiquette by turning his back on the king and queen after formally introducing himself but compounded his perceived insolence by reportedly "laughing disrespectfully" as he departed from their presence.

Lilah Wingfield's observations are recorded in a book by her granddaughter, Jessica Douglas-Home, about her travels in India at a time when it is now realised that British colonial rule had reached its zenith. Within 40 years, India would be independent.


Although Mrs Douglas-Home inherited her grandmother's photos of the durbar, the diary detailing Miss Wingfield's views of the event was lost for many years before being discovered in an English secondhand bookshop and sent on to her.

"They reveal that the Gaekwar of Baroda - second in importance only to the Nizam of Hyderabad - broke every rule in [Viceroy of India] Lord Hardinge's book," Mrs Douglas-Home writes in A Glimpse of Empire.

"He arrived at the amphitheatre in full dress and covered in the historic Baroda jewels, but removed them all just before the moment came for him to approach the king.

"On reaching the shamiana (dais) he made a cursory bow from the waist, stepped backwards and then, wheeling around, turned his back on the royal couple and walked from their presence nonchalantly twirling a gold-topped walking stick."

Mrs Douglas-Home said the maharajah's gesture caused shock among British officials attending the event.


From then until his death in 1939 he was for the most part ostracised by the British authorities even though he wrote a letter of apology soon afterwards which said that if he had not seemed to conform to the ritual, it was due to "nervousness and confusion in the presence of Their Majesties".

The maharajah was partly rehabilitated in 1919 when he was made a Knight Grand Commander by the British.


"It was one of the strongest gestures of dissent by a princely ruler," he said, "and took place against a backdrop of growing support for India's independence movement."

Prof Farooqi says that while the British played down the maharajah's dissent, few Indians - apart from well-connected nationalist leaders - would even have known that it had happened.

Continue reading the main story

Maharajah Sayyaji Rao III

Was adopted from a peasant family
Initially educated in India, he could speak five languages
Travelled widely throughout Europe
Reigned in Baroda for 63 years
Owned much fine jewellery, including the 262 carat "Star of the South" diamond
Supported research into unmanned aircraft


"It is not recognised much now because nationalists campaigning for Indian independence at the time and in later years did not want to be associated with princely rulers," Prof Farooqi said. "Their perceived decadence was a source of some embarrassment.

"They wanted that part of the independence struggle to be be deleted from history because maharajahs were seen as too closely associated with the worst excesses of the Raj.

"That is why today in India so few schoolchildren know about the rulers of princely states. Princely India simply does not exist in the textbooks".

Prof Farooqi says, however, that the maharajah has received recognition for the pioneering reforms he introduced - many ahead of their time - in Baroda.

He was the first Indian ruler to introduce compulsory and free primary education in his state in 1906, placing it far in advance of the rest of British India.

In addition he played a key role in the development of Baroda's textile and banking industries, expanded women's rights, improved access to education, banned child marriages and legislated against discrimination between different castes.

But he is probably most widely remembered in India today for his decision in 1913 to finance three years of postgraduate studies for BR Ambedkar, revered as the principal author of the Indian constitution, at Columbia University.

The maharajah's legacy is one which his grandson, Ranjitsinh Gaekwad, says is a "constant source of pride".

"At that time it boosted the morale of all those working towards achieving independence for India," he said.

"He wanted to instil in his countrymen a sense of pride and self esteem, which he achieved by this and many other actions. Baroda state was the one of the best administered states of British India."

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Re: Know Your India

Postby gunjur » 13 Mar 2012 19:13

Not sure if this is right thread. But here it goes.

'After Mexico, India second largest source of migrants'

Here what was reallllly surprising is
more than six decades after partition, religion-based migration continues in the Indian sub-continent. even today, people continue to move between countries in the area, with Muslims generally migrating to Pakistan :?: :?: :?: while Hindus tend to move to India,"

For Hindus, India is far and away the No 1 destination country...But those factors also sometimes operate in reverse, drawing Hindus from India and nearby countries to Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan :?: :?: (is this really true???)and Sri Lanka, which are among the top 10 destinations – as well as among the top 10 origins – for Hindu migrants,"

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Suraj » 04 Jun 2012 04:41

Christopher Sidor wrote:There are now murmurs coming out that all the growth/development in India in the past decade was just a case of corny capitalism or a hype created by few. There was no actual development. Just some resource/robber-barons playing in the commodities or real-estate speculation, which got sold as rising India story.

Murmurs by whom ? People living in India with their eyes closed ? This isn't 1992 or 93 for 'actual development' to be not visible...

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Arjun » 04 Jun 2012 06:14

Christopher Sidor wrote: There are now murmurs coming out that all the growth/development in India in the past decade was just a case of corny capitalism or a hype created by few. There was no actual development. Just some resource/robber-barons playing in the commodities or real-estate speculation, which got sold as rising India story.

Leftist poppycock !! That the wounds on the India economy story are self-inflicted is widely known- but the reason lies squarely with a socialist government that has squandered money on useless Eurozone-style welfare schemes & seems to view all private business as 'robber barons' to use your terminology. Business needs to be regulated - but its precisely this socialist-hangover view of private business as 'robber barons' rather than the primary allies for development- that has increasingly caused a loss of business confidence in India over the past year. Private business, both domestic and foreign, is voting with its feet - & investment is flowing towards countries with more hospitable business climes.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Christopher Sidor » 04 Jun 2012 23:11

Arjun wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: There are now murmurs coming out that all the growth/development in India in the past decade was just a case of corny capitalism or a hype created by few. There was no actual development. Just some resource/robber-barons playing in the commodities or real-estate speculation, which got sold as rising India story.

Leftist poppycock !! That the wounds on the India economy story are self-inflicted is widely known- but the reason lies squarely with a socialist government that has squandered money on useless Eurozone-style welfare schemes & seems to view all private business as 'robber barons' to use your terminology. Business needs to be regulated - but its precisely this socialist-hangover view of private business as 'robber barons' rather than the primary allies for development- that has increasingly caused a loss of business confidence in India over the past year. Private business, both domestic and foreign, is voting with its feet - & investment is flowing towards countries with more hospitable business climes.


Business Today magazine ran a story a few months ago listing the top 10 richest people in India. Guess the percentage among the top 5 who would be classified as resource-barons? 4 out of the top 5 were people who deal with resources. Anil Ambani, Lakshmi Mittal, etc.

We started our liberalization in year 1991. It is now over 20 years. And yet we have the lowest of life-expectancy in the entire South Asia, excluding Afghanistan. Hell Sri Lanka, a country which has gone through a civil war for the past 2 decades, while we had a growth rate which exceeded 9%, has a higher life expectancy than us. If we look at all the development indexes we find that we have not progressed much.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Suraj » 04 Jun 2012 23:21

How are the Ambanis resource barons ? They don't dig up and sell something - they created a manufacturing and industrial base. Mittal is not even an Indian resident, and hasn't been for decades, and even so, he doesn't make his money through a monopoly of ore or through patronage - he just runs the most productive steelmaker on the planet. The ones who can truly be called resource barons are the Russian oligarchs who grabbed the post-Soviet resource riches. There are a lot of old money families in India, but except for some exceptions they cannot be called resource barons. Did they benefit from political patronage or nepotism ? Sure, but that's common to bigwigs everywhere.

As for your remaining assertions, please provide the associated data.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby gakakkad » 04 Jun 2012 23:27

>>We started our liberalization in year 1991. It is now over 20 years. And yet we have the lowest of life-expectancy in the entire South Asia, excluding Afghanistan. Hell Sri Lanka, a country which has gone through a civil war for the past 2 decades, while we had a growth rate which exceeded 9%, has a higher life expectancy than us. If we look at all the development indexes we find that we have not progressed much.

not true...we have progressed in leaps and bounds ...compare the data from censuses of 91 ,01 and 11...there have been massive change in literacy ,life expectancy and all other parameter..

BTW our life expectancy is has increase 10 years since 1991 census..

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Jun 2012 23:50

Christopher Sidor wrote:If we look at all the development indexes we find that we have not progressed much.


It is simply not correct to say this. Large parts of India have improved dramatically. The povertywallahs are trying to create this twisted impression in order to justify their paycheck. Trying to proclaim these comparisons with BD or Lanka are simply cherry picking data to suit themselves.

Lanka in particular has been an open economic society for 40 year longer than India. In 1950 Lankas literacy rate was 65% & in 1960 it was 72% & in 1970 it was 80%. Yes, really. Contrast that with India where even in 1980 UP's literacy rate was 25%-30%. It is now over 65%.

The question isn't why India lags but why Lanka has been such a disaster for its people despite their overwhelming head start.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby gakakkad » 04 Jun 2012 23:54

our literacy is 75 %..most of the present illiterates are older people...by 2020 literacy will be 90% + as the older illiterate population would have passed away..enrolment to primary school is close to 100% now in many states...life expectancy is 67 ...in south and west india it must be 75+...
Last edited by gakakkad on 04 Jun 2012 23:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Singha » 05 Jun 2012 07:39

SL was expected to be the next asian tiger, instead they messed up and are now 30 yrs behind the tigers.

enrollment rates in most developing nations are now north of 90% at primary school level. functional literacy will be universal by 2020 not just in india but in most places barring a few 'special' cases like TSP and Somalia.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Postby Arjun » 05 Jun 2012 09:34

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Arjun wrote:Leftist poppycock !! That the wounds on the India economy story are self-inflicted is widely known- but the reason lies squarely with a socialist government that has squandered money on useless Eurozone-style welfare schemes & seems to view all private business as 'robber barons' to use your terminology. Business needs to be regulated - but its precisely this socialist-hangover view of private business as 'robber barons' rather than the primary allies for development- that has increasingly caused a loss of business confidence in India over the past year. Private business, both domestic and foreign, is voting with its feet - & investment is flowing towards countries with more hospitable business climes.


Business Today magazine ran a story a few months ago listing the top 10 richest people in India. Guess the percentage among the top 5 who would be classified as resource-barons? 4 out of the top 5 were people who deal with resources. Anil Ambani, Lakshmi Mittal, etc.

If you get down to a proper analysis of Indian and global rich lists - you will find India to be overrepresented in technology, pharmaceuticals & media. Conversely, it is underrepresented in Fashion & Retail, Finance & Food/Beverage. Countries like Russia, Indonesia, Brazil, Australia are the ones dominated by resource billionaires.

In any case, not sure what question you are trying to answer out here. Are you saying the 8-9% neo-Hindu growth rate of the last decade was faulty statistics? What percentage of the GDP is constituted by the mining sector? - all these statistics are widely available.


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