Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
Christopher Sidor
BRFite
Posts: 1435
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 11:02

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Satya_anveshi wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:Like I said RBI has no authority to enforce the rule that only INR will have to be used within the boundaries of India. If I want to use USD or Kuwati Dinar or Yen within India, I have freedom to use it.
Christopher Sidor Ji,

Are you sure about the above part? Check out Foreign Exchange Management Act (FEMA). Unlike other laws where everything is permitted unless specifically prohibited, under this act everything was prohibited unless specifically permitted. Activities around foreign currency /exchange in India or dealing with India/Indians should be done with extreme caution and with good legal cover.
FEMA permits only authorised person to deal in foreign exchange or foreign security. Such an authorised person, under the Act, means authorised dealer,money changer, off-shore banking unit or any other person for the time being authorised by Reserve Bank. The Act thus prohibits any person who:-

[*]Deal in or transfer any foreign exchange or foreign security to any person not being an authorized person
Exactly, RBI (the central banker) sets the rules but enforcement of the rule is in the hand of GoI (sovereign) and not RBI (central banker). And even in India, which is notorious for its lax enforcement, this law is hardly a deterrent. There are cases in IT world where people returning from USA and Canada in 2008-9 have carried dollars with them over here and given these dollars to property dealers to purchase property. These dollars were then sent by property dealers to NRI living in US for their property sold in India. Thus even in India we see a semi transaction in Dollars. It is just that the party on the other side of the transaction must be willing to accept other currencies.

If tomorrow rupee goes into a free fall, like the Iranian Dinar has gone in recent days then there will be cases where transactions in India will be settled in some other currency, with or without permission of the sovereign. Or just like Iran we in India might resort to barter system.

The point of the discussion, which I was having with Neshant, was that backing a currency with gold or any other metal for that matter, is not a wise one. And currencies do float in the market. We have seen currencies which have been pegged to some standard say gold or dollar, falling to maintain that peg, once the going gets tough. Just over a decade ago, we had seen the so called miracle economies of Asia or tiger economies of Asia undergoing the 1997 financial panic.
Christopher Sidor
BRFite
Posts: 1435
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 11:02

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^^
Sorry forgot to add, it is the sovereign which enforces the rule that the legal tender will be X or Y or Z and not central banker.
Christopher Sidor
BRFite
Posts: 1435
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 11:02

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Europe Eyes Bigger IMF War Chest as Firewall Tops $1 Trillion -- Bloomberg Dated 31-March-2012

The European nations have decided to make the size of firewall equal to about 800 billion Euros or 1 trillion USD. Apart from this they are proposing to give IMF 150 billion EUROs. Germans and other wealthier nations have shot down a proposal to transfer the remaining money left in EFSF, the temporary fund, to ESM.

Sounds good, well not exactly. It appears that 800 billion EURO figure was computed by adding up the following
1) 500 billion EURO funds of ESM as original envisaged for ESM.
2) 100 billion EURO which has been given to greece in 2010
3) 200 billion EURO which has already been given to to Ireland, Portugal and Greece from the temporary EFSF.

IMHO this looks like porky/madrasa maths or shall we say financial jugglery. They have not added any new money to ESM and nor have they agreed to transfer the remaining amount from EFSF to ESM.

Now the question comes why this 800 billion euro figure was floated. Many commentators are saying
1) It is to impress Americans/Brazilians/Chinese/etc to put in more money to shore up IMF.
2) A repeat of the famous Bazooka statement by Henry Paulson, i.e. making statements just to impress the audience.

Not everything is bad though. It does appear that ESM and EFSF might run parallel to each other for some period. This might help countries like Spain and Italy, whose debt issues will dwarf the existing size of ESM. But all said and done the so called 800 billion EURO size of the firewall does little to address Europe's main concern, growth.
Political leaders “shouldn’t succumb to the illusion that firewalls can reach the sky, because sooner or later we’ll get to the limits of credibility,” Weidmann(i.e. the head of the german central bank) said. “You can only solve the crisis by tackling the causes. Firewalls won’t solve the crisis.”
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

http://www.businessinsider.com/commodit ... les-2012-4
This Massive Chart Predicts Commodity Deflation For The Next 35 Years
Image
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

Image
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 54007292/1
U.S. population growth slows, especially in far suburbs
Five years ago, millions of Americans were streaming to new homes on the fringes of metropolitan areas. Then housing prices collapsed and the Great Recession slowed growth to levels not seen since the Great Depression in the 1930s. Growth remained slow last year, and largely confined to counties at the center of metropolitan areas. Maps show population gain or loss in 2006 and 2011, based on new Census Bureau estimates

Move the cursor and see the changes
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Americans brace for next foreclosure wave

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/ ... 9E20120404

Half a decade into the deepest U.S. housing crisis since the 1930s, many Americans are hoping the crisis is finally nearing its end. House sales are picking up across most of the country, the plunge in prices is slowing and attempts by lenders to claim back properties from struggling borrowers dropped by more than a third in 2011, hitting a four-year low.

But a painful part two of the slump looks set to unfold: Many more U.S. homeowners face the prospect of losing their homes this year as banks pick up the pace of foreclosures.

"We are right back where we were two years ago. I would put money on 2012 being a bigger year for foreclosures than 2010," said Mark Seifert, executive director of Empowering & Strengthening Ohio's People (ESOP), a counseling group with 10 offices in Ohio.

"Last year was an anomaly, and not in a good way," he said.

In 2011, the "robo-signing" scandal, in which foreclosure documents were signed without properly reviewing individual cases, prompted banks to hold back on new foreclosures pending a settlement.

Five major banks eventually struck that settlement with 49 U.S. states in February. Signs are growing the pace of foreclosures is picking up again, something housing experts predict will again weigh on home prices before any sustained recovery can occur.

Mortgage servicing provider Lender Processing Services reported in early March that U.S. foreclosure starts jumped 28 percent in January.

More conclusive national data is not yet available. But watchdog group, 4closurefraud.org which helped uncover the "robo-signing" scandal, says it has turned up evidence of a large rise in new foreclosures between March 1 and 24 by three big banks in Palm Beach County in Florida, one of the states hit hardest by the housing crash

Although foreclosure starts were 50 percent or more lower than for the same period in 2010, those begun by Deutsche Bank were up 47 percent from 2011. Those of Wells Fargo's rose 68 percent and Bank of America's, including BAC Home Loans Servicing, jumped nearly seven-fold -- 251 starts versus 37 in the same period in 2011. Bank of America said it does not comment on data provided by other sources. Wells Fargo and Deutsche Bank did not comment.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

AdamSmith wrote:
A substantial number of those losing their homes are American tech workers who had their wages reduced or lost their jobs due to the H1B visa program that allows American companies to import hundreds of thousands of low-cost engineers, computer programmers and other tech workers, mostly from India, to displace American workers.

The H1B visa program was lobbied for, and created by large American companies as a means for increasing corporate profits by driving down their cost of American labor. It’s a simple case of supply and demand. The more labor available, the easier it is to reduce wages.

Now those hard working American engineers, the backbone of America’s middle class, are seeing their wages go down, down, down. And at their place of work, more and more of their co-workers are from India, and less and less are from America. And the wage rates keep going down, down, down. And many well-educated American engineers can no longer afford to keep a house with a mortgage.

This is what America is doing to itself, destroying its middle class.
------------
Check how stupid logic is used
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

politicaljunkie wrote:
@AdamSmith: sorry your premise that Indian migrant workers on visas were in anyway to blame for this crisis is totally wrong. This is purely the banks fault as they loaned clevered engineerd loans that should not have been made and now the those very house owners are paying the price. Also a typically we are used to those big salaries and benefits which is just not sustainable in the present economic enviroment. We have to lower our expectations and living standards to climb back gradually and surely.
Neither Obama or Romney can do anything about this situation, so stop making these stupid arguments that migrant Indian workers are to blame.
Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Yogi_G »

Sorry if its a "who is Sita" question. Can we see this current news of reversal of US economy decline as a step towards growth powered by strong economic fundamentals or another one of those debt driven growth stories?

US likely added over 200,000 jobs in March for 4th month
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

For answer look at market reaction.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

Jhujar wrote:Image
Is this chart adjusted for inflation?
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

California moving towards more employers than job seeking people , and we are moving towards a ( job and paycheck less economic recovery , and lot of tech jobs moving outside california ).

IT and computers consulting is not the only area, there are a lot of areas like Finance, Real Estate, Stock mkt, media etc where people make money, IT and software is just less than 10 percent of the whole corporate world.
Christopher Sidor
BRFite
Posts: 1435
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 11:02

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Yogi_G wrote:Sorry if its a "who is Sita" question. Can we see this current news of reversal of US economy decline as a step towards growth powered by strong economic fundamentals or another one of those debt driven growth stories?

US likely added over 200,000 jobs in March for 4th month
Actually the US job scenario was not that good. The total unemployment fell from 8.3% to 8.2% In march the total number of payrolls that were added were close to 1.2 lakhs. These 1.2 lakhs were non-agricultural jobs. Further the number of people claiming joblessness benefits increased in March-2012. The number of job openings has surpassed the number of firings that were conducted by US companies.

The number of people quitting their existing jobs has also increased. There are two ways to read this. One is, people are more confident of getting a job, so are quitting. The other is that people are exiting the job market all-together. The second inference is more troubling, because it means that the US economy is not actually recovering, just that its labour-pool is shrinking.

This is leading some to speculate that QE-III or something similar to Operation Twist will be attempted by Fed.
paramu
BRFite
Posts: 669
Joined: 20 May 2008 11:38

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

Matt Taibbi Thinks That The Big Wall Street Banks Are About To Enter A Death Spiral
the impending Moody's downgrade of a few of the major Street players — BofA, Morgan Stanley, Goldman and Citi.

We know that earlier this week, Black Rock's Larry Fink said that if some of these banks were downgraded, his massive asset management firm would have to stop doing business with them — they have stringent rules about ratings, you see.
when big money players stop trading with those firms, that’s when the death spirals begin.

Morgan Stanley in particular should be sweating. They’re apparently going to be downgraded three notches, where they’ll be joining Citi and Bank of America at a level just above junk.
paramu
BRFite
Posts: 669
Joined: 20 May 2008 11:38

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

GARY SHILLING: Here's Why The US Is About To Plunge Into A New Recession
While he pointed to various data points and recounted a number of anecdotes to prove his point, Shilling's argument was simple: the consumer strength we saw earlier this year was fleeting and highly accommodative policy from the Federal Reserve and the possibility of more quantitative easing are the only things propping up markets right now.

In fact, the fundamentals of the economy lead him to believe "the U.S. economy is overdue for a recession."
Despite a string of positive earnings reports this season and high corporate profit margins, Shilling argues that much of this is hot air. In fact, a closer look at industrial production and inventory paint a grim picture:

Since the financial crisis, profits have been generated by cost-cutting measures and increasing labor productivity, meaning that corporate gains have been shallow.

Shilling points out that increasing inventory means that companies are likely to cut back on production because demand is not keeping up with supply, and industrial production was already sliding to begin with.

Inventory has also exaggerated GDP growth, particularly in the last quarter of 2011. During that period, "inventory growth accounted for 60 percent of the increase in GDP."

He adds ominously, "The liquidation of excess inventories is responsible for a major share of the decline in economic activity in recessions."
This sentiment is also reflected in the crush of investor enthusiasm at any whisper of a new round of quantitative easing from the Fed. "If Bernanke hints that the liquidity tap is closed for now, stocks tank, Shilling explains. "This narrow focus suggests that investors aren’t happy with the fundamental state of the economy."

Not to mention that the possibility of renewed crisis in Europe and a hard landing in China—compounded by a decline in demand for Chinese products from Europe—continue to hang heavy on prospects for the global economy.

Thus, he concludes, a new recession is inevitable:

The U.S. economy is overdue for a recession. I believe that it entered the down phase of the long cycle in 2000, and the five to seven years that remain in the age of deleveraging are part of this period of weak economic growth and more frequent recessions. History reveals an average business cycle length of 3.7 years in the down phase. The economy peaked in the fourth quarter of 2007, meaning the present cycle is long in the tooth.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

http://news.yahoo.com/u-resolves-3-deba ... ector.html
U.S. resolves 3-year debate on investment treaty terms
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The government on Friday said it has resolved a three-year internal debate on how strongly to press countries like China to protect workers' rights and the environment in negotiations on treaties to protect U.S. foreign investment.The U.S. State Department and the U.S. Trade Representative's office issued a joint statement outlining a so-called "model BIT" (Bilateral Investment Treaty) that will be used as a template in future negotiations.The new terms of the treaty include demands foreign governments not relax environmental or labor laws to draw investment by U.S. companies. The debate over the terms followed the changeover in government from the administration of former President George W. Bush.The Emergency Committee for American Trade, a U.S. business group, welcomed the administration's announcement and called for quick resumption of investment talks with China, India, Vietnam and Mauritius that have been on hold.But the group, whose members range from heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar to publisher McGraw-Hill, said stronger U.S. labor and environment demands in the model BIT "could be counterproductive" because they go further than what other developed countries demanThe U.S. Trade Representative's office, in a Fact Sheet, said the 2012 model BIT expands labor and environmental obligations in "four important ways."
It requires governments not to "waive or derogate" from their own labor and environmental laws to attract investment or to fail to effectively enforce those laws to attract investment.U.S. BIT partners also must reaffirm their commitment to core International Labor Organization principles, such as the rights of workers to organize and bargain collectively, and recognize the importance of international environmental agreements, such as those protecting endangered species.The Obama administration also responded to growing concerns about the role of foreign "state-owned enterprises" in international trade by including provisions in the model BIT to help level the playing field for U.S. companies
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Now they have started comparing USA with third world countries like India and China.
India, China and the USA comparisons
Raw data
Population
USA 300 million
China 1.3 billion
India 1.2 billion
Population density
USA 80 per square mile
China 300 per square mile
India, 800 per square mile
USA and China are roughly the same size
India is 1/3 the size of the USA or China
Population growth rate
USA 0.899% Country rank 125
China 0.481% Country rank 152
India 1.312% Country rank 88
Birth rate
USA 13.68 births/1,000 population
China 12.31 births/1,000 population
India 20.6 births/1,000 population
Sex ratio at birth
USA at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
China at birth: 1.13 male(s)/female
India at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
Infant mortality rate
USA total: 5.98 deaths/1,000 live births
China total: 15.62 deaths/1,000 live births
India total: 46.07 deaths/1,000 live births
Literacy rate
USA 99%
Males 99%
Females 99%
China 92.2%
Male 96%
Females 88.5%
India 61%
Male 73.4%
Female 47.8%
Children under 5 years old underweight
USA 1.3%
China 8.7%
India 43.5%
Infant mortality rate
USA 24 deaths/100,000 live births
China 38 deaths/100,000 live births
India 46.07 deaths/1,000 live births
Physician density
USA 2.672 physicians/1,000 population
China 1.415 physicians/1,000 population
India 0.599 physicians/1,000 population
Military expenditures
USA 4.06% of GDP - Rank #23
China 4.3% of GDP - RANK #21
India 2.5% of GDP - Rank #61
All sources - CIA world facts book, online.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

VikramS, Where does current US economy compare with the 1932-1940 economic cycle?
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

ramana wrote:VikramS, Where does current US economy compare with the 1932-1940 economic cycle?
I am not much of an economic historian, though everything did get fixed by the WW.
The difference between then and now is that there is no Gold standard, and money is being created out of thin year. It will take a major event for nominal prices to crash again. And if it hits the fan in Europe, where is everyone going to run? Heck even the ultra-rich Chinese want to invest in the US if they have a chance. There is something to be said about swinging the biggest stick in town.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Joel Kotkin: The Great California Exodus
Joel Kotkin: The Great California Exodus
A leading U.S. demographer and 'Truman Democrat' talks about what is driving the middle class out of the Golden State.
By ALLYSIA FINLEY

'California is God's best moment," says Joel Kotkin. "It's the best place in the world to live." Or at least it used to be.

Mr. Kotkin, one of the nation's premier demographers, left his native New York City in 1971 to enroll at the University of California, Berkeley. The state was a far-out paradise for hipsters who had grown up listening to the Mamas & the Papas' iconic "California Dreamin'" and the Beach Boys' "California Girls." But it also attracted young, ambitious people "who had a lot of dreams, wanted to build big companies." Think Intel, Apple and Hewlett-Packard.

Now, however, the Golden State's fastest-growing entity is government and its biggest product is red tape. The first thing that comes to many American minds when you mention California isn't Hollywood or tanned girls on a beach, but Greece. Many progressives in California take that as a compliment since Greeks are ostensibly happier. But as Mr. Kotkin notes, Californians are increasingly pursuing happiness elsewhere.

Nearly four million more people have left the Golden State in the last two decades than have come from other states. This is a sharp reversal from the 1980s, when 100,000 more Americans were settling in California each year than were leaving. According to Mr. Kotkin, most of those leaving are between the ages of 5 and 14 or 34 to 45. In other words, young families.

The scruffy-looking urban studies professor at Chapman University in Orange, Calif., has been studying and writing on demographic and geographic trends for 30 years. Part of California's dysfunction, he says, stems from state and local government restrictions on development. These policies have artificially limited housing supply and put a premium on real estate in coastal regions.

"Basically, if you don't own a piece of Facebook or Google and you haven't robbed a bank and don't have rich parents, then your chances of being able to buy a house or raise a family in the Bay Area or in most of coastal California is pretty weak," says Mr. Kotkin.

While many middle-class families have moved inland, those regions don't have the same allure or amenities as the coast. People might as well move to Nevada or Texas, where housing and everything else is cheaper and there's no income tax.

And things will only get worse in the coming years as Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown and his green cadre implement their "smart growth" plans to cram the proletariat into high-density housing. "What I find reprehensible beyond belief is that the people pushing [high-density housing] themselves live in single-family homes and often drive very fancy cars, but want everyone else to live like my grandmother did in Brownsville in Brooklyn in the 1920s," Mr. Kotkin declares.

"The new regime"—his name for progressive apparatchiks who run California's government—"wants to destroy the essential reason why people move to California in order to protect their own lifestyles."

Housing is merely one front of what he calls the "progressive war on the middle class." Another is the cap-and-trade law AB32, which will raise the cost of energy and drive out manufacturing jobs without making even a dent in global carbon emissions. Then there are the rene
Meanwhile, taxes are harming the private economy. According to the Tax Foundation, California has the 48th-worst business tax climate. Its income tax is steeply progressive. Millionaires pay a top rate of 10.3%, the third-highest in the country. But middle-class workers—those who earn more than $48,000—pay a top rate of 9.3%, which is higher than what millionaires pay in 47 states.wable portfolio standards, which mandate that a third of the state's energy come from renewable sources like wind and the sun by 2020. California's electricity prices are already 50% higher than the national average.
Meanwhile, taxes are harming the private economy. According to the Tax Foundation, California has the 48th-worst business tax climate. Its income tax is steeply progressive. Millionaires pay a top rate of 10.3%, the third-highest in the country. But middle-class workers—those who earn more than $48,000—pay a top rate of 9.3%, which is higher than what millionaires pay in 47 states.
California used to be more like Texas—a jobs magnet. What happened? For one, says the demographer, Californians are now voting more based on social issues and less on fiscal ones than they did when Ronald Reagan was governor 40 years ago. Environmentalists are also more powerful than they used to be. And Mr. Brown facilitated the public-union takeover of the statehouse by allowing state workers to collectively bargain during his first stint as governor in 1977.

Mr. Kotkin also notes that demographic changes are playing a role. As progressive policies drive out moderate and conservative members of the middle class, California's politics become even more left-wing. It's a classic case of natural selection, and increasingly the only ones fit to survive in California are the very rich and those who rely on government spending. In a nutshell, "the state is run for the very rich, the very poor, and the public employees."

So if California's no longer the Golden land of opportunity for middle-class dreamers, what is?

Mr. Kotkin lists four "growth corridors": the Gulf Coast, the Great Plains, the Intermountain West, and the Southeast. All of these regions have lower costs of living, lower taxes, relatively relaxed regulatory environments, and critical natural resources such as oil and natural gas.

Take Salt Lake City. "Almost all of the major tech companies have moved stuff to Salt Lake City." That includes Twitter, Adobe, eBay and Oracle.

Then there's Texas, which is on a mission to steal California's tech hegemony. Apple just announced that it's building a $304 million campus and adding 3,600 jobs in Austin. Facebook established operations there last year, and eBay plans to add 1,000 new jobs there too.

Even Hollywood is doing more of its filming on the Gulf Coast. "New Orleans is supposedly going to pass New York as the second-largest film center. They have great incentives, and New Orleans is the best bargain for urban living in the United States. It's got great food, great music, and it's inexpensive."

What about the Midwest and the Rust Belt? Can they recover from their manufacturing losses?

"What those areas have is they've got a good work ethic," Mr. Kotkin says. "There's an established skill base for industry. They're very affordable, and they've got some nice places to live. Indianapolis has become a very nice city." He concedes that such places will have a hard time eclipsing California or Texas because they're not as well endowed by nature. But as the Golden State is proving, natural endowments do not guarantee permanent prosperity.
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

^^^ This is a no-brainer as prices are already factors higher than actual affordability, be it in the west or elsewhere. I remember being told by older colleagues that prices were so high in Europe (like 20 yrs back) that most young people never bothered to own one. Just like in Europe, most people will end up renting upscale property if they desire to do so for their working years in a city and maybe own smaller homes as in apartments by the time they retire.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Image
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Has anybody noticed that the period of the increase in house prices is exactly with Bush govt 00-08
Easy credit in US only is the main reason for the increase in demand which pushed the prices in all US markets.

But the media hype and US global media propaganda in that period also pushed prices in Europe, Asia and other places. This increased the debt of lot of consumers who are under now. Indian cities also got into the trap with lot of cities having outsiders owning the properties.

Home prices sink to 2002 levels
Home prices sink to 2002 levels
By Ilyce Glink
Home prices fell year-over-year in February (Shutterstock.com)

(MoneyWatch) After last week's mixed housing news, home prices released today further speculation that a housing recovery is a long way off. According to the latest S&P/Case-Shiller home price index, released Tuesday, home prices fell again in February.

Nationally, home prices are back to where they were in late 2002 for the 20-city composite index, and early 2003 levels for the 10-city composite.
http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1& ... VguLCyc6sM
Last edited by svinayak on 25 Apr 2012 08:05, edited 1 time in total.
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

Indian case is different, it is largely due to pots of black money which was sitting idle has been reaped into real estate. A few Gulf based NRIs may have invested in multiple properties in happening cities, but the real reason is just the unearthing of local black money.

In any case, it is better than all the cash sitting idle outside the country as it now contributes to the local economy. And we are still lacking in quality housing for rentals. So Indian real estate will go the rental way too and not ownership for profit or savings, largely. Profits all booked in black too anyway and to be re-invested again in real estate. The dynamics of the US market and Indian market, hence has no comparison. The coincidence in price inflation may be just a random one, and some demand for quality housing with more economic activity.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

But the external hype played a major part. Even ICICI bank CEO (interview)was trying to copy what the western banks were tryng to do. Easy credit and roll over real estate in short notice. India needs a long term funding and not speculative reit.
Global information keeps spreading and real globalalization of media started after 2002.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

I would put this in a different way. The global real estate bubble started when Alan Greenspan lowered interest rate to record low to recover from the crash of tech bubble. His goal must have been to create a real estate bubble. Since USD is a global reserve currency, people could borrow dollar at cheap rate and invest in other parts of the world where interest rates were higher. As this cheap and unlimited money started flowing into different sectors (real estate being the prime one), it created bubble in all parts of the world, be it US, Canada, UK, Europe, Middle-East, India, China South East Asia or Astralia. There was one major exception - Japan. Their interest rate was already low and this cheap money from US could not create a bubble there.

The bubble in US was popped in 2008. It has to spread to every part of the world.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

In Delhi NCR around One million home units are approved/under construction and I don't think there is anybody to buy them at this cost. In Greater Noida we can drive for miles of developed colonies without a resident in sight.
abhischekcc
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4277
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: If I can’t move the gods, I’ll stir up hell
Contact:

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

It was RBI which prevented a property boom and bust from occuring in India, by preventing foreigners and foreign funds from directly investing in property.

Black money in India prevents a bust from happening.

ICICI was a one trick pony, which minted money for itself in the RE boom. I remember reading that in one year (can't remember the year), out of a total disbursement of Rs 32,000 crore by all Indian banks for property loans, over Rs 20,000 crores were lent by ICICI.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

RBI prevented securitization of mortgage bonds that would have made the situation dangerous. But they didn't block foreign money - Mauritious money, Middle-east money etc., and once they kicked in, the black money and speculation money started flowing. If you look at the white home price in Bangalore, they are comparable to, if not more than, that in US. India has additional problem of huge fake currency flow. If GoI takes steps to curb fake currency circulation in India, I think real estate will be hit badly as that can affect black money in circulation.
abhischekcc
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4277
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: If I can’t move the gods, I’ll stir up hell
Contact:

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

vic wrote:In Delhi NCR around One million home units are approved/under construction and I don't think there is anybody to buy them at this cost. In Greater Noida we can drive for miles of developed colonies without a resident in sight.
Prices are becoming reasonable (not low, not crashing), but land prices are exorbitant.

I also thought the same when Indirapuram was getting built, but some places here are getting as bad as Noida Sec 18 in jams :(

Don't worry, I promise you that those houses will be occupied before 12-Dec-12. :mrgreen:
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

There is nothing reasonable about RE prices in India. But I agree there will not be a crash. People who buy multiple units usually pay cash only. Not like regulars who took ICICI loans like moi to pay up over time. No one is bothered about low rental income when compared to current costs. It was abysmal even when prices were half of now. People who invest in RE (land, house or apt) do not care about returns, it is about parking their black money somewhere. It is just that big guys invest in RE, but aam junta invest in gold for safe keeping. All black only.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

If the real estate price in India does not crash, inflation in the prices of other commodities will have to balance it out.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

shyam wrote:If the real estate price in India does not crash, inflation in the prices of other commodities will have to balance it out.
India does not have a buying and selling of residential properties like in developed countries. Hence there is less liquidity once money is put into a property.

Most of the leins are held by the banks and they cannot also sell these properties and hence the prices will never come down. But the demand is not there to keep up with the prices. Something has to give in and will reflect in the market.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Acharya wrote:India does not have a buying and selling of residential properties like in developed countries. Hence there is less liquidity once money is put into a property.

Most of the leins are held by the banks and they cannot also sell these properties and hence the prices will never come down. But the demand is not there to keep up with the prices. Something has to give in and will reflect in the market.
Unlike the past, what happened this time is that many people bought flats and houses after getting loans. If world hits another recession (where clouds are slowly gathering as per some reports), and if an employment crisis hits India, many won't be able to make regular payments (houses are damn expensive), and Indian real estate market will face the problem it faced in 2009. Also builders are the ones who decide prices. When people can't afford, they will have to reduce the price to sell their inventory.

What I suspect is that instead creating a real estate crisis, GoI might take steps to devalue rupee so that real estate prices can remain numerically the same.
Post Reply