Solar energy in India

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Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 13 Jun 2011 02:53

Interesting pricing chart. There is still a lot of efficiency to squeeze out cost.

Image

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Prem » 13 Jun 2011 03:42

http://enphase.com/products/
Talking about Solar, a Desi is guiding force for theese efficient products.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Jun 2011 05:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:This would mean they plan to develop about 5% of their Solar potential. We should look to put in a series of High tension Undersea Cables and we can get all the power we need from the desert.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-0 ... -says.html

Saudi Arabia plans to generate solar electricity equaling the amount of its energy from crude exports, Oil Minister Ali Al-Naimi said.

Saudi Arabia, the world’s largest oil exporter, has the potential by 2020 to produce enough solar power to meet more than four times global demand for electricity, al-Naimi said yesterday in a speech in Krakow, Poland, posted on the Saudi Press Agency website.


Why not get that solar power from our own desert, instead of importing it from Saudi Arabia?

Question for Gurus: If Saudi Arabia has the potential to generate solar power equivalent of 4 times current world electricity demand, what is the solar power potential for India? Given that most of India's land mass gets fairly good intensity of sunlight year-round, I would think Inida's solar power generation potential would be much larger than that of Saudi Arabia.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 13 Jun 2011 20:37

Kakkaji wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:This would mean they plan to develop about 5% of their Solar potential. We should look to put in a series of High tension Undersea Cables and we can get all the power we need from the desert.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-0 ... -says.html


Saudi Arabia plans to generate solar electricity equaling the amount of its energy from crude exports, Oil Minister Ali Al-Naimi said.

Saudi Arabia, the world’s largest oil exporter, has the potential by 2020 to produce enough solar power to meet more than four times global demand for electricity, al-Naimi said yesterday in a speech in Krakow, Poland, posted on the Saudi Press Agency website.


Why not get that solar power from our own desert, instead of importing it from Saudi Arabia?

Question for Gurus: If Saudi Arabia has the potential to generate solar power equivalent of 4 times current world electricity demand, what is the solar power potential for India? Given that most of India's land mass gets fairly good intensity of sunlight year-round, I would think Inida's solar power generation potential would be much larger than that of Saudi Arabia.


About 5,000
trillion kWh ( TU) per year energy is incident over India’s land area with most parts
receiving 4-7 kWh per sq. m per day. H



If you get 1% of that you end up with 50 TU or 50,000 BU electricity. Need not be all converted to electricity. Use Hot air dryers, Solar water heaters etc as well.

India generated 811.10 BU or TWh during the year 2010-11.

For ref:
1 unit of electricity=1kWh (kilo watt hour)
A million units, designated MU, is a gigawatt hour and a BU (billion units) is a terawatt hour
one TU is 1000 BU or 1000 TWh

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 13 Jun 2011 21:17

In order to have that much solar energy, you need to build a LOT, I mean, LOTS, of energy storage facilities, that would even out the erratic power supply that solar and wind power generate. One common energy storage facility is a water pump reservoir combined with a water turbine at the bottom of a pipe leading down a slope from the top reservoir to the bottom reservoir. The idea is that when you get excess power than the grid can handle, you store energy by pumping water up from the bottom reservoir to the top reservoir so that when there is demand for that power, the water gets released down a pipe and goes through the water turbine and that turbine generates power. The problems associated with such a storage device are, of course, water availability, land availability, and water evaporation which requires a continual replenishment. So to address these problems it would be a good idea to locate these storage facilities near the coast. You can pump up seawater into a top reservoir and cover the reservoir with something so the water doesn't evaporate and release it when the grid demands it.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 13 Jun 2011 21:52

Hitesh wrote:In order to have that much solar energy, you need to build a LOT, I mean, LOTS, of energy storage facilities, that would even out the erratic power supply that solar and wind power generate.

You are right. we are yet to start even to understand the complexity of the issues involved.
I was pointing out merely the availability.All of that are not exploitable at current state.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 14 Jun 2011 00:22

Saudi's have the money to built the Solar network. They will undoubtedly include molten salt heat storage technology. Keep in mind they are about 2 hours behind India. Along with Salt storage they can supply power well into our evening. Ideally if we could get power from East in Tibet/Panda land we could stretch it even more.

At some point we will have to exploit our desert as well.

The best storage system would be along our Western Ghats. We are very fortunate to have this geological freak. Few nations have such an opportunity. There are already a entire series of reservoirs at the top of the ghats at 3000+ feet elevation. 20 Km West the land is at sea level. If we build a series of catchment basins along the coast we could pump the water up and down without worrying about evaporation, availability, etc. Land would be an issue but not as much as you think. Quick back of the envelope calculations shows that about 0.2 TMC of water moved up 3000 feet at 4000 cusecs can generate 1000 MW for 12 hours.

So a pumped storage of say 100,000 MW for 12 hours would need. Say 20-25 TMC of water. Every 12 hours it would be completely pumped to the top of the ghats. This is about 1/5 the capacity of mettur dam. About the capacity of Kabini dam. 1/8 the capacity of Koyna dam. It would be a seriously expensive project how ever. Probably in the range of 20,000 to 30,000 Crore.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 14 Jun 2011 11:59

Theo_Fidel wrote:Saudi's have the money to built the Solar network. They will undoubtedly include molten salt heat storage technology. Keep in mind they are about 2 hours behind India. Along with Salt storage they can supply power well into our evening. Ideally if we could get power from East in Tibet/Panda land we could stretch it even more.

.

You are echoing some of my thoughts. I propose some sort of GRID for RE power which encompass various timezones.

Preferably SAARC or ASEAN GRID . Don't know yet if idea could be workable.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 14 Jun 2011 12:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:So a pumped storage of say 100,000 MW for 12 hours would need. Say 20-25 TMC of water. Every 12 hours it would be completely pumped to the top of the ghats. This is about 1/5 the capacity of mettur dam. About the capacity of Kabini dam. 1/8 the capacity of Koyna dam. It would be a seriously expensive project how ever. Probably in the range of 20,000 to 30,000 Crore.

It needs two reservoir of same capacity with 3000ft height difference. It would need 100,000 MW power plant working for 12 hrs. For Solar PV power it needs 15cr per MW with 5 Acres . Solar thermal area could be less and may be 10 cr per MW. All upfront. Include that to construction cost of reservoirs with all systems in place. I think we may need lot of creative solutions which are challenging for engineering , technological , environmental and financial domains.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Jun 2011 16:55

i dont quite follow the pump storage arguements - these schemes work when there is surplus base load, typically at night - from power plants that are difficult to switch off - so instead of earthing the generated power, it is used to pump water back up. i am not seeing the surplus baseload availability in India just yet...

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 15 Jun 2011 00:16

Pump storage installations is just one way (however the only feasible economical energy storage type I can envision) to store energy. The problem with solar and wind is that they produce power at inconsistent levels and at inconsistent time due to unpredictable weather conditions and changing time. The one of the hallmarks of an modern and efficient industrial nation is to have a secure and steady power supply that delivers you in the desired amount and at the desired time, allowing for efficient production of goods and services.

Wind/solar power may produce a lot of power in one time when the demand is not there but won't produce the power at a later time when the demand is there. So the trick is to carry that power over from the time when demand is not there to when the demand is there. One way of doing that is energy storage systems. Another key component of making this work is a nationwide efficient grid that can distribute power evenly or efficiently to the power consumers from power producers, which is something that India does not have.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby D Roy » 27 Jun 2011 16:52

Once again,

Pumped Storage Plants always consume more energy than they give to the grid on an annual basis. typically at the end of the year their net generation is depicted with a '-' sign.

They can never be baseload schemes. they are peaking schemes with the added profile of load flattening.



they are privileged as peaking schemes because like gas turbines they too can fire up within 15 minutes of scheduling.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2011 17:51

hitesh, given the immaturity of storage technology, grid efficiency is a far better way to manage energy. it means having a steady baseload (at low marginal cost) and variable peak load (at higher marginal cost typically - factors which are determined by the plant's characteristics) and the ability to quickly guage demand and balance with supply, sourcing additional or selling surplus off when feasible. energy trading is a vital component of achieving this balance. more complex systems trade both inputs (gas, coal, etc.) and outputs (MWhrs) with the objective of maximising returns for the power company (assuming they are integrated).

the grid operator has to be a neutral market participant for this to work.

micro generation basically feeds into this grid and theoretically we can all become energy traders sitting at home. theoretically this should lead to an efficient market, but early trails in europe have shown prices (for the consumer) actually going up. we are more likely to see a return to flat (predictable) tarriffs as a result, including green premiums, discounts, etc.

one area where india can probably advance in the medium term is 'local grids' (my term) - where solar and other micro generation supports individual communities, bolstered by mains grids where possible/affordable. in the short term, we might just see household level micro generation with consume what you produce economics

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 27 Jun 2011 18:57

Hitesh wrote: One common energy storage facility is a water pump reservoir combined with a water turbine at the bottom of a pipe leading down a slope from the top reservoir to the bottom reservoir. The idea is that when you get excess power than the grid can handle, you store energy by pumping water up from the bottom reservoir to the top reservoir so that when there is demand for that power, the water gets released down a pipe and goes through the water turbine and that turbine generates power. The problems associated with such a storage device are, of course, water availability, land availability, and water evaporation which requires a continual replenishment. So to address these problems it would be a good idea to locate these storage facilities near the coast. You can pump up seawater into a top reservoir and cover the reservoir with something so the water doesn't evaporate and release it when the grid demands it.


Just an update, It was informed that Taiwan has reservoirs which are classified as Pumped and non-pumped storage Hydro power reservoirs. By pumped, they mean to pump water up and draw down when they need it for power. Asked for more details on it. Idea seems to work well for them to have this classification.
btw, did you hear about it from Taiwan, by any chance?

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 27 Jun 2011 18:59

^^ lalmohan
are you talking abt smart grid and tail end grid?

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2011 20:29

smart grid i know
tail end i don't

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 27 Jun 2011 20:32

Lalmohan wrote:tail end i don't

That's where Grid branches off to serve local area ,usually it is from a substation serving a locality.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2011 20:54

well, its blurred
it might even be a parallel low voltage grid at the village level, not wired up to the HV line
or it might be a LV local grid, that does sometimes draw power from the HV line

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 27 Jun 2011 21:44

Lalmohan wrote:micro generation basically feeds into this grid and theoretically we can all become energy traders sitting at home. theoretically this should lead to an efficient market, but early trails in europe have shown prices (for the consumer) actually going up. we are more likely to see a return to flat (predictable) tarriffs as a result, including green premiums, discounts, etc.


Is this because of higher feed-in rates for residential type Solar panels. Or is it because of the cost of standby power.

The cost of power has been rising for a long time in Europe not necessarily due to renewable. A lot has to do with CO2 pricing, dramatically increased environmental remediation and increased imports.

The question still remains as to how solar can function as base load as it must sooner or later. In India's case, much sooner.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2011 22:29

the case for solar base load is still a gleam in someone's eye... we cant wait that long

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 27 Jun 2011 23:16

Solar/Wind can never be baseload unless it is coupled with efficient energy storage systems.

As for pumped energy storage systems, yes it costs more power to deliver less power but when you have an unlimited supply of solar and wind, that kind of negative efficiency is the least of your worries. Your biggest worry is being able to deliver the desired amount of power at the desired time. It is one thing to cost you 50MW to deliver 40 MW but at least you can deliver it at 40MW which is the presumptuous desired amount of power at the desired time. But it would be another thing if you have a system that demands 50 MW but won't deliver 40 MW at the most or close to it at the desired time.

When you have unlimited fuel and that fuel costs nothing such as solar/wind, you tend to have different considerations from gas, coal, and nuclear based plants and these considerations primarily involve the reliable and steady delivery of power to your consumers, which is something that gas, coal, and nuclear based plants don't have to worry as long as they can pay for the fuel and the fuel supply is not interrupted.

Lalmohan,

Yes you would need an efficient smart grid but still it is not enough. You also need energy storage systems because solar and wind are not reliable and don't deliver power in steady amounts. They fluctuate a lot, and I mean a lot. The energy storage systems even out the power delivery to a large degree that it is manageable and can be utilized over a period of time where people and industries can rely upon. So yeah right now solar and wind only serves as peak power at best.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 30 Jun 2011 22:50

I'm in the midst of laying out a panel pattern for my roof and have been worried about the shading problem. This is a problem on projects. For instance there was one that had a flag pole next to the arraythat caused random power fluctuations till it was removed. Here's a very easy to understand graphic that shows this problem, a 6.5% shade on a single panel reduces its performance by 44%.

Also note that on a cloudy day with power output can drop to 10% or less.

I would strongly recommend micro-inverters, one for each panel to partially overcome these problems.

Image

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea ... pens-54551

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 01 Jul 2011 02:07

Based on reading prior experiences of users with solar panels, shading is the least of your problems. Keep the panels clean is a bitch and must be constantly maintained. India is a very dusty place so you have to wipe the dust off in order for the panel to be useful. Also protect your wires from thieves and robbers.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby devaraj_d » 11 Jul 2011 19:33

chaanakya wrote:
Hitesh wrote: One common energy storage facility is a water pump reservoir combined with a water turbine at the bottom of a pipe leading down a slope from the top reservoir to the bottom reservoir. The idea is that when you get excess power than the grid can handle, you store energy by pumping water up from the bottom reservoir to the top reservoir so that when there is demand for that power, the water gets released down a pipe and goes through the water turbine and that turbine generates power. The problems associated with such a storage device are, of course, water availability, land availability, and water evaporation which requires a continual replenishment. So to address these problems it would be a good idea to locate these storage facilities near the coast. You can pump up seawater into a top reservoir and cover the reservoir with something so the water doesn't evaporate and release it when the grid demands it.


Just an update, It was informed that Taiwan has reservoirs which are classified as Pumped and non-pumped storage Hydro power reservoirs. By pumped, they mean to pump water up and draw down when they need it for power. Asked for more details on it. Idea seems to work well for them to have this classification.
btw, did you hear about it from Taiwan, by any chance?



Chaanakya ji:

One need not go outside India for storage hydro electric plants. 14 / 15 years ago we toured a power plant in Navamalai (TN) and we were informed that this plant can pump water up to another reservoir as storage. This was done for load balancing. They had lots of problems with the plant with only 1/5 (hope I still remember it correctly) turbines was working.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 11 Jul 2011 21:30

Looked up the reference and I think you are talking about Azhiyar Dam of TNEB. Will check with them if it is like pumped storage reversoir.
But, yes, I think this idea is not new and could be worked further for power storage as hitesh talked about. We need to look into other solutions as well.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby RamaT » 13 Jul 2011 10:22

A different take on Solar Energy, this is happening in Philippines and should be adopted in India wholesale.

http://uk.reuters.com/video/2011/07/11/bringing-light-to-the-poor-one-liter-at?videoId=216968892&videoChannel=82

A bottled liter of water with a few teaspoons of bleach is proving to be a successful recipe for dwellers in the light-deprived slums of the Philippines. The simple technology is spreading sunlight in places where it has never been, and saving residents money at the same time.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Jul 2011 13:41

^^^ wow that's so simple and clever!

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby nandakumar » 13 Jul 2011 14:05

chaanakya wrote:Looked up the reference and I think you are talking about Azhiyar Dam of TNEB. Will check with them if it is like pumped storage reversoir.
But, yes, I think this idea is not new and could be worked further for power storage as hitesh talked about. We need to look into other solutions as well.


If I recall correctly, it was called the Kadamparai Pumped Storage scheme in Nilgiris.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby devaraj_d » 13 Jul 2011 17:42

nandakumar wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Looked up the reference and I think you are talking about Azhiyar Dam of TNEB. Will check with them if it is like pumped storage reversoir.
But, yes, I think this idea is not new and could be worked further for power storage as hitesh talked about. We need to look into other solutions as well.


If I recall correctly, it was called the Kadamparai Pumped Storage scheme in Nilgiris.


Many be Kadamparai has one more storage system.

But I was talking about Navamalai which is far away from Nilgiris.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jul 2011 23:04

RamaT wrote:A different take on Solar Energy, this is happening in Philippines and should be adopted in India wholesale.

http://uk.reuters.com/video/2011/07/11/bringing-light-to-the-poor-one-liter-at?videoId=216968892&videoChannel=82

A bottled liter of water with a few teaspoons of bleach is proving to be a successful recipe for dwellers in the light-deprived slums of the Philippines. The simple technology is spreading sunlight in places where it has never been, and saving residents money at the same time.

Seems like one of that silly DDM's type story, where absurd (or highly exaggerated) claims are made without the full facts in the hope that some will be fooled.

According to story, bleach is there just to keep water free of algae, and practically speaking, bottle does not do anything more than diffusing the light coming from a hole in the roof. A nice window (or skylight) will work much better! A typical 10cmx10cm hole, even in broad day light, will amount to about 6 Watt. (20 cm diameter circular window will be about 15 W - a good sized window will be 10x or 100x better)

Of course it is useless in the night. (It does not store energy. It does not work if there is no sunlight on the "roof" and the "roof" can not be reached from the ceiling by a hole)

Besides it is very easy to check out to see if the thing really works and is practical :-o, before falling hook line and sinker and recommending it's "whole sale" adoption in India.

This is not to say, that story is completely false. A water bottle (or a plastic diffuser for that matter) hanging from ceiling, which is exposed to sunlight from a hole in the roof, will seem quite bright in the area below but it is unlikely a solution to what it is being claimed in the above post.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby KrishG » 15 Jul 2011 01:44

Amber G. wrote:Seems like one of that silly DDM's type story, where absurd (or highly exaggerated) claims are made without the full facts in the hope that some will be fooled.

According to story, bleach is there just to keep water free of algae, and practically speaking, bottle does not do anything more than diffusing the light coming from a hole in the roof. A nice window (or skylight) will work much better! A typical 10cmx10cm hole, even in broad day light, will amount to about 6 Watt. (20 cm diameter circular window will be about 15 W - a good sized window will be 10x or 100x better)

Of course it is useless in the night. (It does not store energy. It does not work if there is no sunlight on the "roof" and the "roof" can not be reached from the ceiling by a hole)

Besides it is very easy to check out to see if the thing really works and is practical :-o, before falling hook line and sinker and recommending it's "whole sale" adoption in India.

This is not to say, that story is completely false. A water bottle (or a plastic diffuser for that matter) hanging from ceiling, which is exposed to sunlight from a hole in the roof, will seem quite bright in the area below but it is unlikely a solution to what it is being claimed in the above post.


It still makes sense for shanties to use this thing because they neither have proper windows nor a glass ceiling. This is where this solution really helps.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 22 Jul 2011 09:42

Why are our banks not lending? Also I thought there was a requirement to use domestic suppliers. What happened.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... mport-bank

The bank will provide a USD 16 million long-term loan to support the exports of First Solar Inc to Azure Power, he said.

Besides, the other solar power producers cleared to receive loans from the financial institution are Dalmia Solar Project, Punj Lloyd Solar Project and ACME Solar Technology.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the negative talk was meaningless apparently.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... epage=true

Most of the companies that have won bids to put up solar power projects under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission have achieved financial closure. The total capacity of all the projects that have confirmed financial closure exceeds 500 MW, Mr Anil Agarwal, Chief Executive Officer, NTPC Vidyut Vyapar Nigam (NVVN) – the nodal agency for conducting the selection process for the first stage of JNNSM – told Business Line today.

The ‘500-plus MW' includes all the seven solar thermal projects, whose total capacity is 470 MW. At an approximate cost of Rs 12 crore a megawatt of capacity and working at a debt-equity mix of 70:30, the implication of the financial closures is that banks in India have come forward to lend around Rs 4,500 crore to the solar sector.


Anyone know what limited recourse is. My dad tried to explain but I could not make head or tail of his explanation.

Among the banks that have agreed to lend are Bank of Baroda, Axis Bank, ICICI Bank, SBI and IDBI. In addition, L&T Finance and Exim banks of some countries have been involved, sources say.

A large part of the lending has been “with limited recourse” to the parent company of the solar project developer, says Mr Santosh Kamath, Executive Director, Management Consulting, KPMG Advisory Services Pvt Ltd. The banks have asked for the “limited recourse” for a period up to one or two years after the project goes on stream, he said.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next round begins. With unused capacity from first round. And with bigger projects in PV. IMHO they need to go to 100 MW type projects right away. Only such scale can be cost effective.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 34846.html

India plans to call bids in August to set up about 300 megawatts of solar power plants as part of efforts to accelerate the development of renewable-energy projects.

Debashish Majumdar, chairman of the state-run Indian Renewable Energy Development Agency, said Thursday the 300 MW of projects are those remaining from the first phase of the national solar program.

The agency operates under the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy, and provides funds to renewable-energy projects.

India plans to have 20 gigawatts of solar-power capacity by 2022 under the program, the Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission.

The first phase, to be completed by March 2013, targets grid-scale power projects of 1,000 MW, 100 MW of rooftop systems and 200 MW from off-grid systems such as rural electrification.

Out of the 1,000 MW projects, almost 80 MW of projects are already operational, about 620 MW of new projects have been awarded to several developers and nearly 300 MW are yet to be awarded. The 620 MW projects awarded so far have to be commissioned by March 2012.

"There'll be no second or third phase of the solar mission if the first phase does not succeed," Mr. Majumdar said in an interview.

He also allayed fears that funding problems may cause delays in the solar program.

Earlier this month, an industry report said that many companies that got projects under the program couldn't meet the July 9 deadline to arrange funds, and that "not more than 90-100 megawatts out of 150 MW of photovoltaic projects will move forward" under the first phase.

But Mr. Majumdar said most of the projects given out so far have been able to arrange finances before the July deadline.

"The first phase has to be a trailblazer. The first challenge of financial closure has almost been met. Now the worry will be about installation, generation, loan repayment," he said.

Mr. Majumdar said if the projects awarded so far aren't commissioned by March 2012, their bank guarantees would be forfeited and tariffs would rise.

Separately, an executive of NTPC Vidyut Vyapar Nigam Ltd. said the estimated bank guarantee for the 620 MW of projects awarded so far is about 10 billion rupees ($224 million).

The executive also said that the 620 MW of projects are estimated to cost at least 62 billion rupees.

NTPC Vidyut, a unit of state-run power producer NTPC Ltd., is the nodal agency for procuring electricity under the solar program.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby nandakumar » 22 Jul 2011 13:35

Theo Fidel, Banks lend on the security of the assets of the project to which they have lent money. Now in the case of projects with proven technical viability (let us say a project to manufacture steel using a blast furnace to reduce iron ore into steel) the assets provide reasonable security as bankers can hawk the assets of the project which defaulted on loans to prospective bidders.
But there is a problem with regard to projects involving as-yet-unproven (from a commercial stand point) businesses. We must concede that while producing electrical energy from solar phot voltaic cells may be well established from a purely technical sense there are still some imponderables as not much capcity has come up in India at least.
So what if, the promised conversion efficiency doesn't materialise? What if the cost of these panels are a lot more expensive than what was imagined initially? What if the grid is not able to evacuate the power? The power after all is going to be reduced during the day time while peak demand might be later in the evening/night. Above all what if the State power utilities which already fiancnially fragile refuse to pay the kind of electricity tariff that these projects demand? What if there is a delay in the release of the subsidy either by the Centre or the State Government putting the project to additional financial risk?
These are some of the risks that a solar power project would face. In the event there are no takers for the assets of the project and the banker is stuck with assets with no commercial value. So bankers want some additional insurance to cover this contingency. The new terms arrived at provide for a commitment that in the event the project fail to generate the cash flows needed to repay instalments of the loan they can go after the assets of the promoter company.
In other words, the bankers have the 'recourse' to something else besides the assets of the projects to which they have lent money. it is a 'limited recourse' because they can't go after the assets of the promoter company for an indefinite length of time. They can do so only for defaults that happen in the initial years.

sanjeevpunj
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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby sanjeevpunj » 22 Jul 2011 17:34

Image
If we could reduce our needs for using Electricity,and simply lie down in the sun on a beach we would be really conserving energy at the same time absorbing vitamin D.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 22 Jul 2011 22:02

Nandakumar,

Thanx that is a much better explanation.

The way my Dad put it had a lot to do with interest rates and companies doing it to make marginal projects better looking, etc. It seemed more like financial 'spin' than anything else.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby nandakumar » 23 Jul 2011 14:39

Theo_Fidel wrote:Nandakumar,

Thanx that is a much better explanation.

The way my Dad put it had a lot to do with interest rates and companies doing it to make marginal projects better looking, etc. It seemed more like financial 'spin' than anything else.


Theo Fidel, your dad might well have had some other situation in mind. It is quite possible that corporates use some gimmick to make a project worthy of lending that appears somewhat dodgy on the face of it.
But then at the end of the day, let us not forget that for all the talk about lending being essentially a 'risky game', the banker at heart is a cautious conservative professional. You may have heard of this joke about a banker being one who lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining but would want to take it away the moment it starts to drizzle. So bankers like to layer their exposure with all kinds of 'recourses' or 'letters of comfort', collateral securities etc. There are subtle legal nuances as to what degree of support that each one of them provide to the basic loan exposure.
Above all a banker would prefer solid asset backing to his basic loan exposure and if for some reason that is not possible would at least like a veneer of added security such that he should be able to turn around and tell his bosses/depositors that he did the best that he could. Corporate borrowers understand this and so readily provide the figleaf that bankers are looking for, in the first place. That is possibly what your dad had in mind when he talked about corproate borrowers sweetening the loan proposal so as to make it worthy of a banker's support. Much of corporate loan proposals on solar energy is still work in process.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 30 Jul 2011 13:50

Somewhat unrelated in space but

Fukushima city begins building solar power plant using U.S. donation
FUKUSHIMA (Kyodo) -- The city of Soma in Fukushima Prefecture started work on a solar power plant Friday using a $250,000 donation from a U.S. foundation.



Now poor Nihons would suffer from another disaster in future i.e. exploding solar panels rendering 40*40 km area off limit.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 05 Aug 2011 23:30

http://optics.org/news/2/8/7

Meanwhile demand from India has grown faster than expected, and should now account for around 10% of megawatts shipped by First Solar this year. The company sold only 10 MW into India in 2010, but that figure should rise to 200 MW in 2011 – double an estimate made earlier in the year. And while China remains a small market right now, Gillette welcomed the emergence of a new national feed-in tariff in the country, and said that the government may increase its 2020 PV installations target from 20 GW to 50 GW.

The slowdown in the first half has also provided the company with an opportunity to implement changes to improve module efficiencies, which should deliver a reduction in cost-per-watt figures by the end of the year. At the moment, that figure of merit stands at $0.75/W, unchanged for the past three quarters.

Recent developments within the company’s research and development operation, which have resulted in an NREL-certified CdTe cell operating at a record-breaking 17.3%, suggest that significant further cost reduction is on the cards. “Not a hero device” Gillette stressed that the record-breaking cell was no “hero” device, but instead represented a practical development that has a good chance of being implemented on the production line in the future:


In its latest consensus forecast for the wider PV industry, First Solar is still predicting that global PV demand will grow from last year’s large expansion, to reach 19.8 GW. And although subsequent annual growth is expected to be slower than the historic rate, it still sees a CAGR of 12% between 2010 and 2013, with the market expanding to around 23 GW as average module prices track lower.

First Solar says that its system cost has now fallen by 30% since 2008, and it is predicting a further 19% reduction by 2014 – enough for its systems to deliver electricity at a levelized cost of $0.10-$0.12 per kWh, and close to the cost of fossil-fuel electricity during peak demand periods in locations such as California.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby nandakumar » 06 Aug 2011 16:42

Here is an article that is looking at solar energy from a different perspective. The concept itself may not be new but it is worth taking note of. Only because till now solar thermal (steam generation) and photovoltaic electricity generation have received the maximum attention.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/07/ ... ories.html
The article makes the point that why go through a conversion route when you can use solar heat directly into both industrial and residential applications. If you want to produce steel from melting scrap iron you could do that by directing the radiation from the sun to it rather first convert it to electricity and then power an electric arc furnace to do the job. Or for that matter why heat homes with electricity if the solar rays could do it. At least that is the sense that I got from reading it.
At

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Aug 2011 23:04

The question is transporting heat over hundreds of kilometers. Passive heat/cool systems are useful, but nothing matches electricity.

But I understand what you are saying. We could get 3x type heat out of the same solar system. Just don't see how you pull it off.

I'm any case we need coal for reducing the ore to steel. How does one manage the chemical uses for coal.


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