Solar energy in India

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Vayutuvan
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Theo sorry fixed that to read correctly.
Saik thanks.
SaiK
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by SaiK »

so you missed the 'f' and 'j' type-writing position :). normally i do that too. (assuming you are not on those fancy touch devices).

also, on similar lines, I want to know (since solar is not a 24x7 source), how that calculates into the needs fulfillment?
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

matrimc wrote:Simply put does solar scale to the same levels as coal or oil or nuclear. If the setup costs are too high - both in real terms and in terms of total efficiency, then it will not scale.
there will be bottlenecks in the process,
I don't think anyone knows what the built out numbers can be. They are still figuring out as they go along. Transmission capacity is the key bottleneck so far. Last May California was 6% total and peaking @ 14 % solar. No problems so far. We will see how this year goes. No problems are anticipated till 20% Solar at least.
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=16851

WRT consumption reduction, yes, efficiency matters too. Reducing consumer consumption maybe a harder sell as too often standard of living is affected.....
Vayutuvan
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Then reduction of wastage and pushing alternate energy - solar, wind, geotehrmal (are there any?) - combined fulfilling 35% of the need will be some kind of a point of no return, IMHO. Consumer consumption of course is a hard nit to crack. I am thinking large scale deployment of LED lighting for industrial/commercial/public spaces also would help.

I know what you are saying regarding standard of living. SHQ of my second cousin twice wanted installation of landscape lighting. The contractor said they would need to install a small transformer in the garage (which is a headache) and dig up the landscaping for a total of $5K plus. Of course, they shot it down on the spot. It came up because they have neighbors who own local businesses and depend on local customers. They need to have good well-decorated houses for marketing purposes and showing they are successful businesses or leading professionals. A couple of commercial/residential RE developers and a few doctors, ranging from Oncologists, Trauma Surgeons, and a few admin and sales VPs. Having a posh house with grand curb appeal makes sense to them. The quip is that "who would go to a surgeon who drives a Honda Accord vs. another who drives a Beamer?".

That is vry valid point. The extant mindset of "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the meaning of good standard of living needs to be changed and what needs to be relentlessly drilled into the minds is that better standard of living is same as better civic services, lower pollution levels, better schools, lower crime rates, and (after work) the ability to pursue a hobby or two. Of course, that is Utopia.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by SaiK »

I did read about a report that our distribution losses are huge. Why not consider something not just corrections but advanced enough to take a jumpstart on this? how about super-conducting cables?
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

SaiK: I have a reference from 1998 that losses are about 50% where as coal accounts for 55%. So right there if losses are reduced coal consumption can be reduced - almost 1-1 ratio. Main thing is to reduce the losses though it is impossible to reduce them to 0. May be to 40% which is a 10% saving. I am talking about US now.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

In India system losses > line loses.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by nandakumar »

Theo_Fidel wrote:In India system losses > line loses.
Mostly theft of power. From HT consumers to local office of the party hosting meeting of the party in the neighbourhood with energy for tubelights and stage lights drawn from local distribution boxes.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by member_28991 »

Solar energy can be used to heat water and generate steam. India is far behind research and innovation. How can this be changed in future?
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ramana
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by ramana »

mark, generating steam to run a turbine to generate electricity has many inefficiencies.
Currently most efficient process is photovoltaic.

Best technology is in Germany and USA.

Chinese made solar cells break down in less time.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

As ramana says the problem with almost all alternate energy sources is the efficiency of conversion to electricity. Every process step decreases the efficiency by a factor less than 1. PV has the advantage of only one step and hence the efficiency is same as the efficiency of the PV cell itself. But then one still has to take into account the C budget in manufacturing, installation, and deployment costs (Setup cost_ amortized over the life time and operational costs into account. It is a classic optimization problem. But any efficiency increase will change the optimal operating point. Bottom line is that it is a an economic and basic science problem.

Politics is always going to raise its ugly head though which is unavoidable.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by pankajs »

Reliance Power to set up 6,000 MW solar park in Rajasthan

Read more at: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 00337.html
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vriksh »

Is it more cost effective to create a high temperature solar salt melt system @800C and produce electricity using the temperature differential and associated thermodynamic efficiency than high efficiency solar cells?
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

^^^

That is the concept behind the IVANPAH solar power plant in California, USA. The receiver inlet temperature is ~250C and outlet temperature is ~550C. It operates at a cycle efficiency of 30%. Overall system efficiency is designed to be 16% however. PV panels are mostly above 15%-16% efficiency. Commercial panels are approaching 24% for the most efficient ones. More efficiency increases are likely for quite some time into the future for both technologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_So ... r_Facility
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

A question or two regarding Salt melt below.

setup costs will be higher. More parts in the system lead to lower reliability and higher maintenance costs. Finally if all one is getting the same 15% as PV cells efficiency then why those extra process steps? Not a rhetorical question but am on mobile and hence a curt post.

One reason I can think of is for 24x7 operation. Wouldn't power generation setup be ones complicated in that day time steam superheating is done from salt melt and night time from fossil/nuclear fuel. Of course wind would be better for night time.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Matrimc,

Not sure what the question is here.

To be clear the salt is never melted during the cycle. Only the specific heat capacity of the already molten salt is used.

I think it is too early to judge either way and close options. CSP has the added advantage of the in-system hot fluid buffer, 30 minutes+/-, so if a cloud or two skitters over the field of panels output remains up. Another advantage is the ability of hybrid systems. The Ivanpah system burns natural gas to buffer the variability of the system. To my mind this is very high efficiency set up, kinda like the Prius. In fact exactly like the Prius. Also you are trying to compare two very different systems. PV is very mature, investors can plot every kwh and every cent involved in PV out 30-40 years. There is enough installed knowledge to do this. CSP has not been through the process of standardized iteration and cost reduction yet. Folks are still feeling their way forward. Just to give you an idea, the combined CSP nameplate capacity of USA prior to Ivanpah was under 500 MW. There are single PV farms that have a higher rated capacity. For instance the Topaz solar farm has a nameplate capacity of 550MW.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Theo:

The question is very simple. If PV Cell efficiency is 16% and "salt melt" cycle uses solar EM spectrum to heat, generate super heated steam to drive a turbine etc. but still gets 16% efficiency only, then the latter is worse from a perspective of reliability since it has more parts kin the system. Also there are lots of moving parts which need regular maintenance. So more upfront cost (capex) and more maintenance costs with downtime. So what is the advantage?

I was thinking it has more to do with base load and your above post does reinforce my thinking.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by member_28468 »

What you all think about cost is it reasonable


I am getting 58rs per watt from my local vendor

1400va solar inverter sukkam-8665rs 5yr warranty
100*4 w solar pannel --23200rs. 30yr warranty
2*200 va Sukam solar battery-27000 5yr warranty

I am based in west UP ,in summer we get power cut of around 6-10hr depends on temperature.
But some time due to overload some transformer malfunctions and their is cut of 1-2day also(rarely but happens)
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

vishant chaudhary wrote:What you all think about cost is it reasonable


I am getting 58rs per watt from my local vendor

1400va solar inverter sukkam-8665rs 5yr warranty
100*4 w solar pannel --23200rs. 30yr warranty
2*200 va Sukam solar battery-27000 5yr warranty

I am based in west UP ,in summer we get power cut of around 6-10hr depends on temperature.
But some time due to overload some transformer malfunctions and their is cut of 1-2day also(rarely but happens)
I would expect to use some of the electricity during the daytime (say approx 400w). This is for fans, TV, fridge etc. Hence you do not require batterybackup for all the power. I would add another 23200 for the 400W consumption during the day,
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by RamaY »

First Solar Commits 5 GW Capacity In India, Mulls Setting Up Manufacturing Unit

Ramanaji,

I think time to invoke BRF contacts and get this unit for Rayalaseema, one of the most backward areas. This will serve four industrial areas - Blore, Chennai, Hyd and Mumbai directly in addition to 40% of Indian population.

I hope these Govs (MH, TN, TG, KA, KE, AP) focus on using solar power for domestic use (along with inverters) and farmers (solar water pumps).

Together the will free up ~40% of current capacity for industrial use and base load support.

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SaiK
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by SaiK »

only if two dynamic halves of the world sell solar to each other!?! install terra watts on the sunny side, and energize the night side. :) full power! blast off.

who says now time zone based bartering not a bad idea? [ans: bakis]
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Kakkaji »

Cabinet nod for 15,000 MW grid-connected solar projects
The completion of this 15,000 MW capacity projects under the National Solar Mission would accelerate the process of achieving grid tariff parity for solar power and also help reduce consumption of kerosene and diesel, which is presently in use to meet the unmet demand.

Some of the solar PV plants are based on bundling of solar power with unallocated thermal power.

The bundled power will be allotted to various states that come forward to provide land for setting up the solar power projects and to those which would purchase a major portion of the bundled solar power for consumption within the state and ensure connectivity to the solar power project.

The capacity allotted to each such state will be set up through developers, to be selected through international competitive bidding by NTPC/NVVN.

Both private and government companies would be free to bid for projects.

Some of the projects will be set up on land already identified in Andhra Pradesh. Others will be allotted in other interested states that come forward.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by ramana »

SaiK, Answering your earlier question about night time use, Elon Musk is proposing a high capacity Li- Ion battery(low cost) to store the solar power generated. Right now PGE and uses your solar power to offset Tier 3 &4 usage. IOW you still get hit with Tier 1 & 2 charges. Unless you are a heavy user of Electricity solar wont change your bills very much. Now with battery power you can consume what you generate and give only excess to PGE!!! Not much.

The other approach still being worked on is fuel cells. Natural gas powered Fuel Cells seem best prospect.
In end its micro-grids with distributed energy generation as opposed to the standard power generation and transmission utility.

PGE sees the writing on wall and is demanding grid charges for things they already amortized long ago!!!
Talk about usury economics.


Theo and matrimc, I hear scuttlebutt that Germany transmission grid is collapsing as it is unable to pay for traditional power transmission.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Prem »

As per below, Solar generates maximum employment in Energy field and mass transit in infrastructure as whole.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by kmkraoind »

Modi tops Obama solar pledge with first India green dollar bond
Export-Import Bank of India, which has lent to solar and wind programs, sold the country’s first green dollar bonds in a $500 million issue of 2.75 percent notes March 24. India’s issuance of overseas securities meeting environmental criteria overseen by the Zurich-based International Capital Market Association could surge to as much as $1.5 billion annually in the next two to five years, according to Commerzbank AG.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Neshant »

Jhujar wrote:As per below, Solar generates maximum employment in Energy field and mass transit in infrastructure as whole.
Spending money does not generate employment. Spending money is spending money.

You could "generate" a lot more jobs just getting people to dig holes and fill them up.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Hari Seldon »

^Solar from rooftops needs to be mandated for all new constructions priced at >INR 1000 per sqft, IMHO.

Sadly, grdi connectivity and storage tech have yet to keep pace with such grand plans.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by arshyam »

True, but by using solar where possible, load on the grid will be reduced, leafing to lower bills, won't it? Or are true savings possible only with grid feeding capability?
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by amritk »

For those interested in solar systems, NREL SAM is an excellent, free program developed by US Department of Energy for comprehensive performance and financial analysis of PV systems. Apologies if posted before.
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Re: Solar energy in India

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niran
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by niran »

arshyam wrote:True, but by using solar where possible, load on the grid will be reduced, leafing to lower bills, won't it? Or are true savings possible only with grid feeding capability?
grid feeding take out the need for for storage battery around 60% of the initial cost and 80 of the subsequent maintenance cost. you produce and use excess is fed into the grid. during dark hours you draw from the grid.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

India's pioneering reverse auctions which are now the global model for solar pricing has produced some lowest per unit costs in the world. Prices continue to decline.
The trend line is to get to 2 cents a kw or ~ Rs 1 per kw in the medium term.

The target is now 250,000 mw of nameplate capacity. To give you some comparison. India's entire present generation capacity is ~ 350,000 mw.

India warms to solar, amid forecasts it will be cheapest power source

http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2015/0 ... er-source/
India is the latest in a string of markets to witness a solar energy boom. Solar power currently accounts for just over one percent of India’s total installed power capacity of 261 gigawatts (GW) and the government’s new target is to add a staggering 100 GW of solar capacity by 2022.

Traditional markets for solar, like Europe, don’t offer the same growth prospects making India one of the next big stories for the global solar industry. It has already come a long way from just under 12 megawatts (MW) of installed solar capacity at the end of 2010, to 3,743 MW as of March 2015. This has largely been achieved through federal reverse auctions, with the first tranche of the next round eagerly awaited later this year; a significant 1000MW will be up for grabs.
The growth prospects were reflected in the commitments made at the RE-Invest conference organised by the Indian government in February this year. Private equity houses, strategic investors, developers and public sector corporations committed to go further than the 100GW level – the target jumped up to 250 GW by 2022.

The latest industry analysis indicates that solar power will soon become the cheapest source of electricity in many regions of the world. The reduction of cost is enabling India to diversify away from reliance on large-scale hydro and unabated coal without saddling the economy with unsustainably high energy costs.

India has employed a range of different mechanisms over recent years to incentivise the build out of renewable energy. Tax incentives for wind however led to lots of wind farms being created where the owners didn’t care if the wind blew or if the turbines worked. There has been a range of feed-in tariffs promoted across India, with varying degrees of success.

We are now seeing a movement towards reverse auctions being the preferred option in India.

For many years around Europe and other markets the preferred support regimes for renewable energy were feed-in tariffs and market mechanisms (where producers received green certificates on top of the revenues earned from generation electricity). Auctions were viewed as cumbersome and producing uncertain outcomes which stifled development and investment.

The tide has now turned and even Germany, France and the UK have begun to adopt reverse auctions. This about turn is largely due to the success of reverse auctions in driving down the cost of renewable energy in places like Brazil and South Africa. Since 2009 over 17GW of renewable energy projects have been awarded contracts in Brazil under a series of auctions.

South Africa has been phenomenally successful over the four rounds of its Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme. Prices have been driven down dramatically and now match the lowest prices seen globally despite local factors like the relative weakness of the rand and the interest rate environment pointing the other way.

We have some evidence of “auction” behaviour where bidders get carried away and projects are never built – but very little compared with the total MWs awarded.

In India there are two level of auctions – Federal and State. The Federal auctions are attracting high levels of international interest despite complex and confusing guidelines for participation.

It is a similar story with the State level. While some States are keeping their feed-in tariffs others are opting for auctions. One persistent issue is the inability of the states to guarantee that the designated land will become available on a timely basis. We expect that this will push the States to place the land procurement issue onto developers over time.

The global solar industry has shown itself over recent years to be adaptable, mobile and resourceful. The industry has largely adapted to the challenges of the reverse auction model. Developers understand what is needed to win and they drive down costs across the supply and capital chain.

The debate around pros and cons of renewable energy takes up a lot of space and airtime. Love it or hate it, it is difficult to ignore the impact that renewable energy has had and will continue to have on energy markets over recent years.

India will benefit from the experience learned in markets like Brazil and South Africa and we expect that the winning bids will be surprising low. The future for solar in India (and reverse auctions for renewable energy everywhere) is bright.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by ramana »

Something to be aware of for remote areas in India.

http://www.comsol.com/story/around-the- ... ower-14467

Essentially uses molten salt as heat retention medium to provide power round the clock and not just during sunny hours.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Looks like Rs 4/kw price is already here much ahead of the original 2025 schedule.
On our way to Rs 2/kw.

http://www.businessworld.in/energy-infr ... Yk6rv.dpbs

Solar Power To Become Cheaper Than Conventional Power In 2-3 Years
Solar power is likely to become cheaper than or equivalent to conventional thermal energy prices over the next two to three years and reach Rs 4/kWh-Rs4.5/kWh by FY18, says India Ratings and Research (Ind-Ra). This will be driven by a decline in capital costs (solar modules and other balance of plant), an increase in efficiency and a shift towards large solar photovoltaic projects leading to the economies of scale and lower return expectations by developers.

According to International Renewable Energy Agency, solar photovoltaic prices have fallen nearly 80 per cent since 2008. Additionally, solar module efficiency has witnessed an annual increase of 3.5-4.5 per cent. The increasing size of projects to 10MW and above from 5MW earlier also leads to the economies of scale in component procurement and better absorption of fixed costs. Moreover, the return expectation of developers is likely to moderate as the market matures, leading to a reduction in overall tariffs.

The recent solar bids conducted by MP Power Management Company Limited with per unit prices reaching as low as INR5.05/kWh are suggestive of the above trends. Globally in a recent bid, NV Energy, a Nevada utility, agreed to purchase 100MW solar power under a fixed-price 20-year power purchase agreement at 3.87cents/kWh (INR2.43/kWh).

Ind-Ra expects a strong pick-up in solar power installations over the next four-five years, driven both by the government impetus of 100GW of solar power by FY22 (60GW through grid connected solar projects) and a decline in solar power generation costs. These factors will increase the affordability of solar power for distribution companies and eliminate the requirement of government support by way of subsidies or viability gap funding (VGF). Ind-Ra sees a limited possibility of support by way of VGF, greater focus on infrastructure creation for the evacuation of solar power and higher possibility of distribution companies meeting their renewable purchase obligation.

The solar space has already seen a significant decline in tariffs. Solar tariffs declined to Rs 7.49/kWh-Rs 9.44/kWh in in Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission phase I, Batch II during FY12 from Rs 10.95/kWh-Rs 12.76/kWh during FY11. In phase II, Batch I, the concept of VGF was introduced and the tariffs declined to Rs 5.45/kWh. However, the current tariffs are even lower than those offered by through VGF. The recent coal-based bids for the purchase of thermal power by Andhra Pradesh saw tariffs in the range of Rs 4.27/kWh-Rs 4.98/kWh, only 1-14 per cent lower than the solar tariff of Rs 5.05/kWh bid recently in the MP Power Management Company power purchase tender.

The feed-in-tariffs (FITs), outlined by respective state electricity regulatory commissions based on the cost-plus return on equity model, have also seen a significant decline. FIT for solar energy in Gujarat was lowered to Rs 8.03/kWh in FY15 from Rs 12.54/kWh in 2010. FIT for solar energy in Rajasthan has been declined to Rs 6.74/kWh for FY16 from Rs 15.32/kWh in FY11.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote:Something to be aware of for remote areas in India.

http://www.comsol.com/story/around-the- ... ower-14467

Essentially uses molten salt as heat retention medium to provide power round the clock and not just during sunny hours.
Rji

A desi version of Tesla-Powerwall for remote small villages is a good option. Build a 10-20KW panels (60-120KWH generation) with 30KWH battery (9 battery pack = $27K) would be sufficient for 30-50 houses section. Total cost about Rs 30-40Lakhs.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

The hydro electric power plants can be used for storage of energy. either shut them down during the day or even pump up electricity during the daytime.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rishirishi: What are the losses when you pump up the water to the other side of the dam and recover through turbines? I think the numbers would be not in the favor of such a course of action. Thermodynamics has a nasty habit of defeating all the well laid plans of the mice and men.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

vayu tuvan wrote:Rishirishi: What are the losses when you pump up the water to the other side of the dam and recover through turbines? I think the numbers would be not in the favor of such a course of action. Thermodynamics has a nasty habit of defeating all the well laid plans of the mice and men.
Loss is from 13 to 30 %. It is already being done in large scale. Norway for example purchases a lot of thermal and nuclear energy during the night, due to overcapacity. This is then sold back during the daytime peek hours. Coal and Nuclear plants tend to produce electricity at a constant.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-st ... ricity[url]


India is well placed with plenty of Hydroelectric power and some thermal as well, hence storage more of an administrative issue.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Rishi,

Don’t forget battery technology.
Researchers are aiming for 2 cents/kw charging costs for battery technology as well.
If that becomes viable, HYDRO and other technologies can become more like back stops. Long term storage.
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