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Solar energy in India

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Mort Walker
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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Nov 2016 09:14

^^^Nonsense. Coal power has been growing over 11% per annum since Modiji took over. I expect it to ramp up along with solar, wind, and nuclear. NG and LNG may be limited unless a good deal with Iran has been made, but then unkil may scuttle that with the Trumpanzees in charge.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Nov 2016 09:19

Solar power has a place in the energy mix, but it is NOT the answer for large scale power production. India has lots of Thorium and new reactor designs are now available. In addition India has breeder reactors generating power. No other country AFAIK does. The Arihant PHWR reactor design produces 80 MW. If scaled up can provide at least 100 MW. If we use the idea of off shore wind turbines. Why not just build 100 Arihant class SSBNs and run power lines to them offshore? Hain jee?

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hari Seldon » 02 Nov 2016 09:23

Well, solar power's per unit cost ain't exactly a static phenomenon but a moving one, and diving fast at that. Coal, N-power etc remain relatively static only.

Go not for where the puck is now but for where it will be when you get there. [~Some ice hockey great]

Similarly, project to where prices will be in 2020 and start building a political, legal, sciTech and manufacturing ecosystem with that kinda price point in mind. No? Of course, easier said than done and all that. I do see some tentative moves to encourage rooftop solar, invest in battery/storage tech etc. Solar is pretty much sanctions proof. And powering urban mass transit - metros, ACs, escalators etc - with solar will pull down air pollution numbers big-time, I hope.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby hanumadu » 02 Nov 2016 09:26

In recent years India added more capacity from other sources than coal. Even if you look at govt future plans, renewables exceed solar by a substantial amount. Though we will continue to depend on coal, its share will keep declining.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Nov 2016 09:29

hanumadu wrote:In recent years India added more capacity from other sources than coal. Even if you look at govt future plans, renewables exceed solar by a substantial amount. Though we will continue to depend on coal, its share will keep declining.


But coal is increasing also. My guess is that coal as part of the over all power production will only drop by a percent a year. Maybe by 2080 India will be done with coal, but even then I'm doubting it. Coal is cheap and easy to do.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Nov 2016 09:33

Hari Seldon wrote: Solar is pretty much sanctions proof. And powering urban mass transit - metros, ACs, escalators etc - with solar will pull down air pollution numbers big-time, I hope.


So is coal being more sanctions proof. If coal power production increases dramatically and metros switch to hybrid or pure EVs, then air pollution will decrease dramatically. Also, people will be less inclined to use more polluting diesel generators for power if they have plenty of cheap reliable coal power.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 02 Nov 2016 09:50

Mort Walker wrote:Solar power has a place in the energy mix, but it is NOT the answer for large scale power production. India has lots of Thorium and new reactor designs are now available. In addition India has breeder reactors generating power. No other country AFAIK does. The Arihant PHWR reactor design produces 80 MW. If scaled up can provide at least 100 MW. If we use the idea of off shore wind turbines. Why not just build 100 Arihant class SSBNs and run power lines to them offshore? Hain jee?


"...The Arihant PHWR reactor design produces 80 MW..."

Minot tech. flaw... :wink:

"..The vessel will be powered by an 83 megawatts (111,305 hp) pressurised light-water reactor[15] with enriched uranium fuel....."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Arihant

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Nov 2016 09:57

^^^Thanks. I stand corrected.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Gyan » 02 Nov 2016 11:49

I don't know why everybody keeps missing it? Solar power tariff is only for solar electricity that is produced during day time. But if Solar plant is asked to store power and make it available even during night time, cost will double.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Gyan » 02 Nov 2016 11:51

hanumadu wrote:In recent years India added more capacity from other sources than coal. Even if you look at govt future plans, renewables exceed solar by a substantial amount. Though we will continue to depend on coal, its share will keep declining.


Source link for details which give info that Govt push for other renewables is more than solar in future?

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 02 Nov 2016 11:59

Gyan wrote:I don't know why everybody keeps missing it? Solar power tariff is only for solar electricity that is produced during day time. But if Solar plant is asked to store power and make it available even during night time, cost will double.



Rammpal wrote:

Main reason PV based plant is capable of such coal-busting tariff is because these are all half-naked systems, i.e.: sans power storage,

I guess, some solar is better than no solar at all ! :wink:


:D

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby hanumadu » 02 Nov 2016 13:43

Gyan wrote:
hanumadu wrote:In recent years India added more capacity from other sources than coal. Even if you look at govt future plans, renewables exceed solar coal by a substantial amount. Though we will continue to depend on coal, its share will keep declining.


Source link for details which give info that Govt push for other renewables is more than solar in future?


Oops, I meant coal.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 02 Nov 2016 16:31

Hitesh wrote:
Dinesh S wrote:
Yes, people don't need electricity at night after the sun has set. No no no. They onlee need electricity during day. They all go to sleep after 6pm when sun sets. They don't do any other work which needs electricity. Thanks for ejicating me sir. Deepfully thankful. :lol:

Do us and humanity a favor, disconnect yourself and your home from central power grid and use solar power onlee as it is half as costly as other sources like you have pointed out


Don't be an ass. You are not doing humanity and India any favor when you are at it. Reread my words again and think before you open your trap. Demand for electricity goes down in the middle of the night when most people are sleeping and not doing any activities. Peak times occur around morning times and evening times. Solar power coupled with battery and energy storage devices can alleviate the peak demand. We need base power to provide steady stream of power but not so much of it otherwise we end up wasting it and risk damaging the electric grid. That is where peak power supply come in. Solar power coupled with energy storage devices can supply the majority of the peak power without damaging the grid and without going through a very expensive process of building the necessary power stations.

So do us and humanity a favor; go back to school and hit the books. I suggest starting with elementary 101 and mathematics 101.

Only problem being your entire point is a lie you pulled from your ass. the peak hours of energy consumption in developed world is 10am-10pm. Solar energy will not be available at peak demand during 5-10pm. Even though the power requirements falls below the peak demand at midnight, it doesn't vanish to thin air. Even then, it won't address the basic problem i raised with solar- it won't be available at all throughout the day specially evening and night. I never claimed power fluctuations don't exist, i said the fluctuations is not as big as you think. No matter how much you use buzzwords , solar energy really can't provide energy during the 5-10pm of the day when the energy dengan will be fairly high and you will need an equivalent amount of conventional source of energy to tide over that time. And for producing that you will need to invest in them anyway.

That's why I said solar energy costs twice as much as advertised if we include back ups.

You can justify the white elephant all you want because you have no clue as to how the world works all you want, i mean i wouldnt be surprised from a killary Clinton fanboy. But don't expect us indians to take this crap seriously. Americans can waste away their money in unproven and unreliable crap like solar for the problem they created like climate change, but we indians don't have the luxury. Ruin the country you went to live in, we indians have suffered enough to be subjected this bull crap .


But if you still insist solar, whih despite its huge exorbitant cost and unreliability is the way to go, lead by example. Save humanity by disconnecting your house from grid and install solar. After all you don't need power after sun sets down :mrgreen:

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 02 Nov 2016 16:48

Funny thing about this is that in Germany and Chile(i think), the government waa giving away the solar electricity away at free cost and in some cases paid the consumers to use them. This was Even used by the solar energy propaganda morons to tout how great solar energy has become. Yeah no shit. The solar energy was given away because it was produced in excess to the need because as i already pointed out, it is not reliable. So if say germany needs a 40 GW electricity at AVERAGE, and they decide to install 10GW of it as solar and 30 GW from conventional sources, then they really would have to install 40GW in total conventional sources alone because the 10 GW from solar is not available all through day. So they would have to have a total installed capacity 50GW (40GW conventional +10GW solar) to meet a 40GW power demand, if they decide to use solar as power source. So , when in day, when the solar energy production is peak, there will be excess power available to the grid. Coal/conventional power plants cannot be turned off and on at a whim everyday. They will still need to function. Do the governments which installed solar massively like Germany was giving away free electricity at day .

As i said, this kind of wasteful investments on white elephants like solar is something the rich western countries should do, for their role in global warming(no matter which side of the debate you are on this issue), not indians . We are are still a poor country and we can't waste our money on expensive unreliable crap to satisfy the mentally colonised and brainwashed people

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lilo » 02 Nov 2016 18:40

Image
https://electrek.co/2016/05/09/new-mile ... -at-11-am/
^The situation this year in germany.
The wastage of generated power is signified by the gap b/w the thick line(consumption) vs the topcrest (signifying total generation at any moment) .
Intelligent(aka Smart) grid & powersystems should lessen that wastage further as predictability & forecast keeps getting better with time.
See what US is doing. https://electrek.co/2016/05/25/us-depar ... city-grid/

Dinesh S wrote:Funny thing about this is that in Germany and Chile(i think), the government waa giving away the solar electricity away at free cost and in some cases paid the consumers to use them. This was Even used by the solar energy propaganda morons to tout how great solar energy has become. Yeah no shit. The solar energy was given away because it was produced in excess to the need because as i already pointed out, it is not reliable. So if say germany needs a 40 GW electricity at AVERAGE, and they decide to install 10GW of it as solar and 30 GW from conventional sources, then they really would have to install 40GW in total conventional sources alone because the 10 GW from solar is not available all through day. So they would have to have a total installed capacity 50GW (40GW conventional +10GW solar) to meet a 40GW power demand, if they decide to use solar as power source. So , when in day, when the solar energy production is peak, there will be excess power available to the grid. Coal/conventional power plants cannot be turned off and on at a whim everyday. They will still need to function. Do the governments which installed solar massively like Germany was giving away free electricity at day .

Dinesh ji,
In addition to above graphic ,
Why is the contracted price per Unit - i.e one Kwh - i.e absolute quantum of energy generated (not just some "show" installed capacity like KW or MW with big zeroes) so low for on-grid solar plants being commissioned these days?
You must ponder on this.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby guru.shetty » 02 Nov 2016 20:32

Mort Walker wrote:
Rammpal wrote:

"...Tamil Nadu Generation and Distribution Corporation Ltd will purchase all of the power from the project at a tariff of ₹7.01/kWh (~$0.11/kWh) over 25 years..." :-? :lol:

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/07/06/ad ... amil-nadu/


Wow. That's more than twice as much as natural gas. So much for your cheap competitive solar power...


Looks like Adani group made a nice profit with Kamuthi solar plant. From the time they bid, and to the time they installed the panels, the panel prices crashed by 40%.

And please note that Indian solar prices are higher (even at current bids of ~Rs 4.5/kwh) than say Dubai because of financing cost and risks associated with Rupee devaluing over the next 25 years.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Lilo » 02 Nov 2016 21:07

^
Land cost & quantum of solar insolation perday b/w a desert(with clear skies) vs over populated arable land also makes up the difference.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 02:35

Lilo wrote:Image
https://electrek.co/2016/05/09/new-mile ... -at-11-am/
^The situation this year in germany.
The wastage of generated power is signified by the gap b/w the thick line(consumption) vs the topcrest (signifying total generation at any moment) .
Intelligent(aka Smart) grid & powersystems should lessen that wastage further as predictability & forecast keeps getting better with time.
See what US is doing. https://electrek.co/2016/05/25/us-depar ... city-grid/

Dinesh S wrote:Funny thing about this is that in Germany and Chile(i think), the government waa giving away the solar electricity away at free cost and in some cases paid the consumers to use them. This was Even used by the solar energy propaganda morons to tout how great solar energy has become. Yeah no shit. The solar energy was given away because it was produced in excess to the need because as i already pointed out, it is not reliable. So if say germany needs a 40 GW electricity at AVERAGE, and they decide to install 10GW of it as solar and 30 GW from conventional sources, then they really would have to install 40GW in total conventional sources alone because the 10 GW from solar is not available all through day. So they would have to have a total installed capacity 50GW (40GW conventional +10GW solar) to meet a 40GW power demand, if they decide to use solar as power source. So , when in day, when the solar energy production is peak, there will be excess power available to the grid. Coal/conventional power plants cannot be turned off and on at a whim everyday. They will still need to function. Do the governments which installed solar massively like Germany was giving away free electricity at day .

Dinesh ji,
In addition to above graphic ,
Why is the contracted price per Unit - i.e one Kwh - i.e absolute quantum of energy generated (not just some "show" installed capacity like KW or MW with big zeroes) so low for on-grid solar plants being commissioned these days?
You must ponder on this.


Because the large scale solar power pushers are arithmetically challenged and when you divide by 24 it gets ugly fast.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 03 Nov 2016 06:00

Mort Walker wrote:Because the large scale solar power pushers are arithmetically challenged and when you divide by 24 it gets ugly fast.


It's very likely due to readily available reserve capacity in existing plants that such a solar plant feeds into, i.e.: only minor tweaking needed to pick up solar plan't slack at sunset onwards.
Hence, 'naked' solar systems and their associated 'cheap' rate is fine by the investor.

There are new projects whereby solar power is the main generator, backed by preferred energy storage system(s).
And obviously, no one's getting Dubai/UAE type tariff rates there !! :lol:

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 08:05

Dinesh S wrote:Only problem being your entire point is a lie you pulled from your ass. the peak hours of energy consumption in developed world is 10am-10pm.


Again the above bolded part proves how deep your cluelessness goes and how far you have to search for your brain. The peak times does not occur during 10 am to 5 pm. Why? It is because at that time, people have already taken showers, used heated water for cleaning, turned on the most numbers of appliances already such as cooking, laundry etc. When people go to work and are at work, most of the activity at home lies idle while commercial centers are humming with activity. But during 7 am to 9 am, activity hums at two locations, the work places and at home. Mornings are often when you see the most peak hours. After 5 pm to 10 pm, activity hums primarily at home and activity at work falls off as it gets to 7 pm as people leave work places and go back home. That is where you see the 2nd most peak times. After 10 pm, human activity starts to fall off and so does electricity usage as people retire for the night. When people retire for the night, they are not generating human heat and therefore require less energy to cool down and since they are mostly asleep, there is no need for light, power for tv, etc.

A man of average intellect can easily figure that part out but apparently you can't. May I suggest you go off to a brain donation center and try to find a better brain?

Solar energy will not be available at peak demand during 5-10pm. Even though the power requirements falls below the peak demand at midnight, it doesn't vanish to thin air.

You can provide that power with the aid of battery and energy storage devices for the time period of 5 to 10 pm.

Even then, it won't address the basic problem i raised with solar- it won't be available at all throughout the day specially evening and night.

That is because we are in the infancy stage for solar power. We have only begun thinking of solar as a large based scale power source for industrial use and widespread use. Before Elon Musk came onto the scene, solar power was something on the fringe. Now it is becoming mainstream, human ingenuity and resourcefulness will help alleviate the issues and perhaps eliminate them. In the beginning of the days when we were using coal and thermal power plants, we had similar problems with power flunctuations and power availability until we figured out how to build an efficient grid.

I never claimed power fluctuations don't exist, i said the fluctuations is not as big as you think. No matter how much you use buzzwords , solar energy really can't provide energy during the 5-10pm of the day when the energy dengan will be fairly high and you will need an equivalent amount of conventional source of energy to tide over that time. And for producing that you will need to invest in them anyway.

Like I said, we are in the infancy stage where we are just figuring out to make it work at a large scale. I see no physical restraint or barrier that stands in the way of getting to that point. The obstacles that remain are capital funding requirements and land right issues.

That's why I said solar energy costs twice as much as advertised if we include back ups.
So was coal or nuclear power plants when they first came along but as technology matured and people began building infrastructure and improved efficiency, the costs went down. However if you look at the rates of cost of the use of coal versus solar and the declining rates, you would see that the cost of solar went down faster than the cost of coal or nuclear.

You can justify the white elephant all you want because you have no clue as to how the world works all you want, i mean i wouldnt be surprised from a killary Clinton fanboy.

As I said, you are exhibiting signs of a boy without a brain. I don't really care whether I am a HRC fanboy or not and your use of name calling is very childish and immature. And since you think so highly of Trump despite overwhelming evidence of his hypocrisy and racism, I take it as concrete evidence of your very low intellect. In that case, I would like to sell you a bridge in Florida and make money off you. I have no problems parting money apart from the gullible.

But don't expect us indians to take this crap seriously.
Don't pull the race crap with me. You will get no shrift on this. I am as Indian as anybody on this forum.

Americans can waste away their money in unproven and unreliable crap like solar for the problem they created like climate change, but we indians don't have the luxury. Ruin the country you went to live in, we indians have suffered enough to be subjected this bull crap.


The level of bullshit you have raise in the above quote is quote astonishing that it makes me believe that you shovel bull manure for a living.

But if you still insist solar, whih despite its huge exorbitant cost and unreliability is the way to go, lead by example. Save humanity by disconnecting your house from grid and install solar. After all you don't need power after sun sets down :mrgreen:


I see solar as an emerging technology trend and coal as a dying technology trend. I am just waiting for that sweet spot where I can install solar and power battery backup at an affordable cost. In my area, we are not there, but I am confident that we will get there. When more gigafactories come online and better and bigger battery technology come online, that is the day when solar will reign supreme. After all, who can compete with the power of a sun that generates enough energy per second that will power human civilization throughout its lifetime. I would not be so quick to dismiss the power of the sun, or shall we say Indra. There is a reason why a god symbolizes the sun, but not coal or fossil fuel.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 08:48

Hitesh wrote:I see solar as an emerging technology trend and coal as a dying technology trend. I am just waiting for that sweet spot where I can install solar and power battery backup at an affordable cost. In my area, we are not there, but I am confident that we will get there. When more gigafactories come online and better and bigger battery technology come online, that is the day when solar will reign supreme. After all, who can compete with the power of a sun that generates enough energy per second that will power human civilization throughout its lifetime. I would not be so quick to dismiss the power of the sun, or shall we say Indra. There is a reason why a god symbolizes the sun, but not coal or fossil fuel.



More hyperbole not backed by mathematical or engineering fact. In India coal mining production has improved. Older coal fire plants will be phased out and that power capacity will be replaced by something which is less costly per KWHr, but the replacement will have to be cost effective. Until solar power gets more efficient it won't be solar. It may be nuclear, gas or it may be hyrdroelectric. From Nepal to Bhutan there are many hydro projects which could easily supply north India with much of its power. Instead of sentiment it would be better to provide hard numbers with cost in KWHr units. Until then, reality will be very different from your perception.

The ultimate power of the sun is fusion.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 03 Nov 2016 08:56

Hitesh wrote:
I see solar as an emerging technology trend and coal as a dying technology trend. I am just waiting for that sweet spot where I can install solar and power battery backup at an affordable cost. In my area, we are not there, but I am confident that we will get there. When more gigafactories come online and better and bigger battery technology come online, that is the day when solar will reign supreme. After all, who can compete with the power of a sun that generates enough energy per second that will power human civilization throughout its lifetime. I would not be so quick to dismiss the power of the sun, or shall we say Indra. There is a reason why a god symbolizes the sun, but not coal or fossil fuel.


This is precisely where Unified Energy Consumption, vis-a-vis, domestic and transportation energy(EV/EV hybrid/any kinda hybrid) needs are coupled and together come from solar.

For commercial joints, such a parity or even gross benefit already exists !
Perhaps yet another tech startup should take up this immensely lucrative opportunity :D

Err, you sure about sun power/second is good for Entire human civilisation lifetime !! :)
Even then, all that mojo mean little without the means or willingness to harness same.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 10:04

Mort Walker wrote:
The ultimate power of the sun is fusion.


Why bother reinventing the wheel when it is already done for you and you just need to capture the energy?

That is basically what solar does: capture the energy of the largest fusion engine in the solar system.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 10:35

Hitesh wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
The ultimate power of the sun is fusion.


Why bother reinventing the wheel when it is already done for you and you just need to capture the energy?

That is basically what solar does: capture the energy of the largest fusion engine in the solar system.


This really proves you're mathematically and scientifically challenged! Fusion is what we will use one day to travel to the stars and power our lives! It is perfect or near perfect efficiency.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 10:35

Rammpal wrote:
This is precisely where Unified Energy Consumption, vis-a-vis, domestic and transportation energy(EV/EV hybrid/any kinda hybrid) needs are coupled and together come from solar.


Right now we need to improve the efficiency of the energy storage and expand the capacity to such an extent that we can employ on a large industrial scale and build that infrastructure. Once we get that done, we will see a dramatic improvement of our unified energy consumption and efficiency. Once that happens, coal technology becomes obsolete, unsustainable over the long run.

Err, you sure about sun power/second is good for Entire human civilisation lifetime !! :)
Even then, all that mojo mean little without the means or willingness to harness same.


See here: http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/he ... n_produce/

In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 10:37

^^^Again when we get to better than 50% efficiency, then we can talk seriously about large scale solar. Until then it is not viable.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 10:41

Mort Walker wrote:
Hitesh wrote:
Why bother reinventing the wheel when it is already done for you and you just need to capture the energy?

That is basically what solar does: capture the energy of the largest fusion engine in the solar system.


This really proves you're mathematically and scientifically challenged! Fusion is what we will use one day to travel to the stars and power our lives! It is perfect or near perfect efficiency.


Oh boy. You really need to reexamine your statements before you accuse me of being mathematically and scientifically challenged. Given the power output of fusion, Fusion would not be enough to get us to travel to stars in our lifetime. Hell even a sun's power doesn't produce enough energy to propel us to other star system within our lifetimes. So fusion power is useless for star travel. Perhaps for interplanetary travel, but certainly not interstellar. Since the most likely uses of fusion only requires stationary objects, it is reinventing the wheel when we are trying to recreate the power of fusion and try to come up with materials that can withstand millions of degrees of heat and radiation and hold that for a steady amount of time to produce any measurable steady stream of power. The sun is already doing that for us. We just need to capture the energy of the sun. In fact, if we can capture the energy of the sun by using space based solar devices capable of capturing huge amounts, our civilization level goes up several notches.

I am not saying that we shouldn't stop developing and researching into fusion power but even if we develop the fusion power sources, we may end up finding that it is far more efficient and easier to capture the energy of the sun, store it, and feed it to our civilization.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 10:50

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Again when we get to better than 50% efficiency, then we can talk seriously about large scale solar. Until then it is not viable.


50% efficiency in what?? You only get 50% efficiency in a closed system and coal power plants are rarely closed systems. Have you studied thermodynamics? I have and using the efficiency computation of the BTU rate and the water consumption and replenishment, the efficiency of coal fired plants is not in the 30s% (that only exists in closed systems) but actually in the medium teens. With solar, you can take out the water consumption and replenishment rate since solar does not use water in the generation of power, the efficiency of solar is lower than coal right now but the gap between solar and coal is not large and is small enough for solar to overtake with regular improvements in solar efficiency.

And you keep forgetting that the cost of the fuel source for solar is free! It cost nothing and not subject to market forces. For coal power plants, the cost of fuel is not free and must be counted and it is subject to market forces. That means if you build a solar power farm, you get to lock in the rate for the lifetime of the solar power plant. For coal, it is not so and you have to deal with the cost fluctuations making it hard to accurately gauge the true lifetime costs of the coal power plant. Furthermore, you have to deal with the waste that comes with coal power plants in two or three stages (one stage at mining, one stage at transporting, and one stage at combustion). With solar, there is only stage of waste to deal with and that is during mining for rare earth minerals.

And solar power is scalable and descalable while coal power is not. You have to start coal at a certain level which only makes sense for cities and larger cities. With solar power, you can start with villages and work your way up.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 03 Nov 2016 11:01

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Again when we get to better than 50% efficiency, then we can talk seriously about large scale solar. Until then it is not viable.


Why the magical figure of 50 ? :eek:

Don't you really mean investment efficiency, as in ROI, over a given lifetime, for a given solar project ?
Because tapping into sun's rays, which would otherwise go 'wasted' in itself is a net gain activity, i.e.: any solar ray conversion would be a positive.

It is precisely for this reason that I feel this effort needs to be policy driven, as in ".. never mind the cost, we want solar, because......." :!: :!:

In addition, solar energy implementation needs economy of scale, cost leverage, for it to gain investment edge over coal or even gas power plants.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 11:11

We just need to capture the energy of the sun. In fact, if we can capture the energy of the sun by using space based solar devices capable of capturing huge amounts, our civilization level goes up several notches.


Please post a thread about your Dyson Sphere once it gets in operation. You can't post any reasonable figures about solar, nor can anyone else here. All we get are pie-in-the-sky proposals. All the rest of the while the solar plants in places like Rajasthan, where solar power would be ideal, are being cancelled for having too high of a tariff rate.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 11:13

Rammpal wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Again when we get to better than 50% efficiency, then we can talk seriously about large scale solar. Until then it is not viable.


Why the magical figure of 50 ? :eek:

Don't you really mean investment efficiency, as in ROI, over a given lifetime, for a given solar project ?
Because tapping into sun's rays, which would otherwise go 'wasted' in itself is a net gain activity, i.e.: any solar ray conversion would be a positive.

It is precisely for this reason that I feel this effort needs to be policy driven, as in ".. never mind the cost, we want solar, because......." :!: :!:

In addition, solar energy implementation needs economy of scale, cost leverage, for it to gain investment edge over coal or even gas power plants.


We're talking about the PV panel electrical efficiency. At peak the sun gives us 1000 W/m^2. So we should be able to get near half that.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 11:21

50% efficiency in what?? You only get 50% efficiency in a closed system and coal power plants are rarely closed systems. Have you studied thermodynamics? I have and using the efficiency computation of the BTU rate and the water consumption and replenishment, the efficiency of coal fired plants is not in the 30s% (that only exists in closed systems) but actually in the medium teens. With solar, you can take out the water consumption and replenishment rate since solar does not use water in the generation of power, the efficiency of solar is lower than coal right now but the gap between solar and coal is not large and is small enough for solar to overtake with regular improvements in solar efficiency.


If you consider heat rate conversion efficiency, then you better consider overall efficiency of PV panels over 24 hours and the losses of storage systems. At that rate solar efficiency will fall even further. Solar requires maintenance too and replacement of panels over time.

Please show us the gap between solar and coal being small - you can't.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby SaraLax » 03 Nov 2016 16:11

Mort Walker wrote:
Rammpal wrote:

"...Tamil Nadu Generation and Distribution Corporation Ltd will purchase all of the power from the project at a tariff of ₹7.01/kWh (~$0.11/kWh) over 25 years..." :-? :lol:

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/07/06/ad ... amil-nadu/


Wow. That's more than twice as much as natural gas. So much for your cheap competitive solar power...


Lots of (deliberate ??) mis-information gets peddled around in many threads of this forum. Nothing unusual for human beings and that too in a site maintained for discussions.

Solar tariff fixed at Rs 5.1 for pending projects
Sivakumar B | Mar 31, 2016, 12.24 AM IST

Chennai: Solar power projects for which MOUs had been signed with Tangedco but could not be commissioned by Thursday will be paid only Rs 5.10 instead of Rs 7.01 per unit as per the power purchase agreement (PPA). The Tamil Nadu Electricity Regulatory Commission (TNERC) has fixed the final tariff with effect from April 1, 2016. In a unanimous order, the TNERC has increased the tariff mentioned in the consultative paper floated in February by 9 paise per unit.
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The solar power companies which have commissioned the projects are of small capacity except Adani Power company's project. "Out of the 648MW for which Adani company signed PPA with Tangedco, around 314MW alone have been commissioned. Other companies which have commissioned projects so far have smaller capacity of 1MW or less than," a senior Tangedco official told TOI.

Apart from Adani other big companies which have commissioned solar power projects are SunEdison and Welspun. "While SunEdison signed PPAs for setting up 150MW, Welspun signed PPAs for 200MW. Of this only less than 100MW has been commissioned by these two companies so far," said the official.


So out of the 648 MW power being produced at Kamuthi by Adani - the first 314 MW of power gets purchased by the TN electricity utility at INR 7.01 per unit where as the rest 334 MW of the power from this plant gets purchased at Rs 5.10 per unit.

This INR 7.01 per unit Solar power tariff was set in TN during August/September 2014 and the TN electricity commission also stipulated that this was applicable only under certain conditions. With regards to why the electricity commission in TN set the price of Rs 7.01, read the below excerpts from another article ...


Did the Jayalalithaa government sign up expensive solar power from Adani ?
July 23, 2015
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Officials at the regulatory commission, however, defended the tariff, citing the example of states like Karnataka and Gujarat. In October 2013, Karnataka Electricity Regulatory Commission fixed the tariff at Rs 8.40 per unit for solar plants starting production from 2013 to 2018 and at Rs 7.20 per unit for rooftop solar power installations. The official also pointed to tariff orders of the Gujarat Electricity Regulatory Commission, which stated that for a solar power project that started production by March 2015, the government would buy power at Rs 8.35 per unit for the first 12 years and at Rs 7 per unit for the next 13 years.

A senior official at the Tamil Nadu Electricity Regulatory Commission argued this showed that the tariff fixed by the state was competitive. “The price of Rs 7.01 will be applicable only if these power producers begin production within the stipulated period, which is January 2016. If they do not manage to begin production by January 2016, we will obviously take a relook at the prices and possibly reduce tariffs," he said. (Which is what happened in April 2016 when the tariff was reduced from INR 7.01 to INR 5.10 per unit of solar power)
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i

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 03 Nov 2016 18:42

^^ Aha, thanks for the update/clarification! :D

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 21:13

Mort Walker wrote:
We just need to capture the energy of the sun. In fact, if we can capture the energy of the sun by using space based solar devices capable of capturing huge amounts, our civilization level goes up several notches.


Please post a thread about your Dyson Sphere once it gets in operation. You can't post any reasonable figures about solar, nor can anyone else here. All we get are pie-in-the-sky proposals. All the rest of the while the solar plants in places like Rajasthan, where solar power would be ideal, are being cancelled for having too high of a tariff rate.


Oh ye of little faith! They are not pie in the sky proposals. We have devices that are capturing the energy of the sun, i.e., solar panels and wind turbines/ It is real and happening. What you are seeing is the first generation of solar energy capture devices. Nobody thought that 60 years ago, we would be capable of creating computers that are capable of A.I. and doing real smart stuff. They thought it was the stuff of science fiction and pie in the apple proposals. IBM thought that way until Intel and Apple showed the world difference. 10 years ago, everybody thought that electric cars were pie in the sky proposals and now we are seeing the upcoming mass manufacturing of electric cars in the form of Chevy Bolt, Tesla Model 3, Nissan Leaf, and even the German car manufacturers are getting into the act, making plans of coming up with a fully electric Series 3 car for the masses. 10 years ago, nobody thought that rooftop solar power was a viable concept but today we see an industry coming up and growing with no signs of stopping.

In India, look at how they power communication towers in the villages and rural area. They started using solar power with battery back up in the villages. And they got the next bright idea of bringing power to the villages which can replace the need for kerosene lamps and such and bring in more power than they would have had before. The biggest change you will see is at the grassroots section. What you are seeing are the seeds of an energy revolution akin to the green revolution.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2016 21:15

Mort Walker wrote:
50% efficiency in what?? You only get 50% efficiency in a closed system and coal power plants are rarely closed systems. Have you studied thermodynamics? I have and using the efficiency computation of the BTU rate and the water consumption and replenishment, the efficiency of coal fired plants is not in the 30s% (that only exists in closed systems) but actually in the medium teens. With solar, you can take out the water consumption and replenishment rate since solar does not use water in the generation of power, the efficiency of solar is lower than coal right now but the gap between solar and coal is not large and is small enough for solar to overtake with regular improvements in solar efficiency.


If you consider heat rate conversion efficiency, then you better consider overall efficiency of PV panels over 24 hours and the losses of storage systems. At that rate solar efficiency will fall even further. Solar requires maintenance too and replacement of panels over time.

Please show us the gap between solar and coal being small - you can't.


Now you are moving the goal posts. Once you move the goal posts, it is easy for you to say that there will always be a gap. Look at the span of 8 hours when there are sunlight. I can make the same analogy with coal in say, you can only get a certain amount of coal to power the plant over 24 hours and you are effectively in the same boat. Nice try but try again.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2016 22:02

^^^I don't think you've you're qualified to make any such statement unless you work for the power industry or for any of the state electricity boards because you can't do simple arthimetic and look at power generation in Watts.

Do you have any background in electrical engineering - not electronics or computer engineering before making bullshit claims. This discussion is starting to resemble those who claim perpetual motion machines are the solution to all power problems.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rishi Verma » 03 Nov 2016 22:41

Guys Pls stop posting mumbo jumbo about "efficiency" etc about power plants and which factors should be considered. If you want to post numbers then back it up with references. Efficiencies of power plants (coal, gas, nuclear, etc) is well researched and quantified.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 02:08

So sorry guys, i got distracted by the solar propagandists' buzzwords on solar that i fell off track. Solar energy is pathetic even if we assume that magical battery/water storage(honestly who comes up with these brilliant ideas for a water mismanaged country?) etc work at 100 % efficiency. I forgot that no matter how many buzzword these mentally colonised arithmatically challenged hippies throw at the solar plant, it will still not work during nights. It will at max work only from 6am to 6pm. So it will only work for 12 hours a day. Compare that to nuclear and coal plants which work for 24 hours a day. So even if we install solar plant of 20GW, we are only installing an effective power generation of 10GW and that's being generous(if we assume sunny days 365 days a year, and 12 hours of solar generation). Compare that with coal or nuclear plant which provide installed capacity of full 20 GW throughout the day if 20 GW is installed. So 100 GW solar installation only means 50 GW effective solar energy production at best and that's again being generous. So the cost of solar energy installation for a particular generation capacity is actually double that of the stated value and that's not including the extra costs it will be needed for the batteries and such(never mind that it will not be 100% efficient).

So i am sorry I missed this important issue- solar energy will be prohibitively costly and pathetic even if the batteries/backups work as these propagandists claim it will.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 02:13

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't think you've you're qualified to make any such statement unless you work for the power industry or for any of the state electricity boards because you can't do simple arthimetic and look at power generation in Watts.

Do you have any background in electrical engineering - not electronics or computer engineering before making bullshit claims. This discussion is starting to resemble those who claim perpetual motion machines are the solution to all power problems.

Sir, you are forgetting that government is subsidising these solar power plants. So basically the tax payers are saving a lot of money because government is subsidising the solar plants. And as we all know, when government subsidises the power plants of the consumers, tax payers, etc, it becomes cheap. :lol:


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