Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Solar energy in India

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Dinesh S
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 20:41

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 02:41

Lilo wrote:Image
https://electrek.co/2016/05/09/new-mile ... -at-11-am/
^The situation this year in germany.
The wastage of generated power is signified by the gap b/w the thick line(consumption) vs the topcrest (signifying total generation at any moment) .
Intelligent(aka Smart) grid & powersystems should lessen that wastage further as predictability & forecast keeps getting better with time.
See what US is doing. https://electrek.co/2016/05/25/us-depar ... city-grid/

Dinesh S wrote:Funny thing about this is that in Germany and Chile(i think), the government waa giving away the solar electricity away at free cost and in some cases paid the consumers to use them. This was Even used by the solar energy propaganda morons to tout how great solar energy has become. Yeah no shit. The solar energy was given away because it was produced in excess to the need because as i already pointed out, it is not reliable. So if say germany needs a 40 GW electricity at AVERAGE, and they decide to install 10GW of it as solar and 30 GW from conventional sources, then they really would have to install 40GW in total conventional sources alone because the 10 GW from solar is not available all through day. So they would have to have a total installed capacity 50GW (40GW conventional +10GW solar) to meet a 40GW power demand, if they decide to use solar as power source. So , when in day, when the solar energy production is peak, there will be excess power available to the grid. Coal/conventional power plants cannot be turned off and on at a whim everyday. They will still need to function. Do the governments which installed solar massively like Germany was giving away free electricity at day .

Dinesh ji,
In addition to above graphic ,
Why is the contracted price per Unit - i.e one Kwh - i.e absolute quantum of energy generated (not just some "show" installed capacity like KW or MW with big zeroes) so low for on-grid solar plants being commissioned these days?
You must ponder on this.


Seriously sir, did you even need to ask this question? Isn't it something obvious? Anyway, i will give an example.

Why do some vegetables cost more in winters and less in summer while some others have opposite prices ? Supply and demand .

Also, the solar energy push comes with a massive government subsidy. When you factor in that, it is even more wasteful.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Half-yearly_electricity_prices_(EUR)_V2.png

Btw, these are the comparative prices for power in different eu countries. Compare the prices the Germans pay for power vs that of French (whose demands are met upto 70% from nuclear power)
. Germans pay 50% more for power vis a vis French.

Dinesh S
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 20:41

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 02:43

Mort Walker wrote:
Hitesh wrote:I see solar as an emerging technology trend and coal as a dying technology trend. I am just waiting for that sweet spot where I can install solar and power battery backup at an affordable cost. In my area, we are not there, but I am confident that we will get there. When more gigafactories come online and better and bigger battery technology come online, that is the day when solar will reign supreme. After all, who can compete with the power of a sun that generates enough energy per second that will power human civilization throughout its lifetime. I would not be so quick to dismiss the power of the sun, or shall we say Indra. There is a reason why a god symbolizes the sun, but not coal or fossil fuel.



More hyperbole not backed by mathematical or engineering fact. In India coal mining production has improved. Older coal fire plants will be phased out and that power capacity will be replaced by something which is less costly per KWHr, but the replacement will have to be cost effective. Until solar power gets more efficient it won't be solar. It may be nuclear, gas or it may be hyrdroelectric. From Nepal to Bhutan there are many hydro projects which could easily supply north India with much of its power. Instead of sentiment it would be better to provide hard numbers with cost in KWHr units. Until then, reality will be very different from your perception.

The ultimate power of the sun is fusion.

They will keep waiting for a miracle in battery technology and even with that in mind, solar is expensive. Let them pray. After all, when government subsidises this white elephant, it is practically free :roll:

Dinesh S
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 20:41

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 03:02

SaraLax wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Wow. That's more than twice as much as natural gas. So much for your cheap competitive solar power...


Lots of (deliberate ??) mis-information gets peddled around in many threads of this forum. Nothing unusual for human beings and that too in a site maintained for discussions.

Solar tariff fixed at Rs 5.1 for pending projects
Sivakumar B | Mar 31, 2016, 12.24 AM IST

Chennai: Solar power projects for which MOUs had been signed with Tangedco but could not be commissioned by Thursday will be paid only Rs 5.10 instead of Rs 7.01 per unit as per the power purchase agreement (PPA). The Tamil Nadu Electricity Regulatory Commission (TNERC) has fixed the final tariff with effect from April 1, 2016. In a unanimous order, the TNERC has increased the tariff mentioned in the consultative paper floated in February by 9 paise per unit.
.
.
.
.
The solar power companies which have commissioned the projects are of small capacity except Adani Power company's project. "Out of the 648MW for which Adani company signed PPA with Tangedco, around 314MW alone have been commissioned. Other companies which have commissioned projects so far have smaller capacity of 1MW or less than," a senior Tangedco official told TOI.

Apart from Adani other big companies which have commissioned solar power projects are SunEdison and Welspun. "While SunEdison signed PPAs for setting up 150MW, Welspun signed PPAs for 200MW. Of this only less than 100MW has been commissioned by these two companies so far," said the official.


So out of the 648 MW power being produced at Kamuthi by Adani - the first 314 MW of power gets purchased by the TN electricity utility at INR 7.01 per unit where as the rest 334 MW of the power from this plant gets purchased at Rs 5.10 per unit.

This INR 7.01 per unit Solar power tariff was set in TN during August/September 2014 and the TN electricity commission also stipulated that this was applicable only under certain conditions. With regards to why the electricity commission in TN set the price of Rs 7.01, read the below excerpts from another article ...


Did the Jayalalithaa government sign up expensive solar power from Adani ?
July 23, 2015
.
.
Officials at the regulatory commission, however, defended the tariff, citing the example of states like Karnataka and Gujarat. In October 2013, Karnataka Electricity Regulatory Commission fixed the tariff at Rs 8.40 per unit for solar plants starting production from 2013 to 2018 and at Rs 7.20 per unit for rooftop solar power installations. The official also pointed to tariff orders of the Gujarat Electricity Regulatory Commission, which stated that for a solar power project that started production by March 2015, the government would buy power at Rs 8.35 per unit for the first 12 years and at Rs 7 per unit for the next 13 years.

A senior official at the Tamil Nadu Electricity Regulatory Commission argued this showed that the tariff fixed by the state was competitive. “The price of Rs 7.01 will be applicable only if these power producers begin production within the stipulated period, which is January 2016. If they do not manage to begin production by January 2016, we will obviously take a relook at the prices and possibly reduce tariffs," he said. (Which is what happened in April 2016 when the tariff was reduced from INR 7.01 to INR 5.10 per unit of solar power)
.
.
.
i



The average price at which the government purchase from coal plants is 2.5-3 rupees per kWhr and yet 250% higher cost of 7rupees/kWhr and 100% higher cost of 5rupees/kWhr from solar plant is what you justify the solar power based on? And you call this the future? In what world does buying costlier less efficacious products make for better economic sense?

Now i see why it was so easy to brainwash the indians into believing Aryan invasion theory. If enough whites propagandize it, they will even buy horse manure as dev prasad :roll: . Or may be because they all brilliantly think that since it is onleeee government money which is being spent here, its not really costing india anything economically based on commie economic principles and thought. I mean i wouldnt be surprised.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Nov 2016 04:16

One way to better use solar power for residential use is switch to DC instead of AC. This would contribute to lower losses and the use of expensive inverters. This would cause problems for AC and fridges though where a different type of compressor would have to be used.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 04 Nov 2016 05:00

Hitesh wrote: The biggest change you will see is at the grassroots section. What you are seeing are the seeds of an energy revolution akin to the green revolution.


Nice line, and agree completely.
It's always a one man's dream, first, before it snowballs.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 04 Nov 2016 05:03

Mort Walker wrote:One way to better use solar power for residential use is switch to DC instead of AC. This would contribute to lower losses and the use of expensive inverters. This would cause problems for AC and fridges though where a different type of compressor would have to be used.


Exactly !
In fact, we need to re-asses power transmission, vis-a-vis, HVDC transmission.
DC fridge/Air-cond is not a big deal, plenty available already.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 04 Nov 2016 05:15

Even existing vehicles can adopt 'partial electrification' as well !

1. motor driven air-conditioning system.
2. commercial vehicles(mainly) - air compressor.
3. cooling water pump.
4. lube oil pump.

All of the above driven off onboard battery - deep cycle type please, not regular auto grade ya !!
It isn't just the potential savings that become available with such method, also the auxiliary equipment would no longer be tied directly to the engine.
i.e.: operational flexibility, and hence better efficiency overall.

And the whole lot powered by solar panels installed at home or depot/base.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 04 Nov 2016 10:19

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't think you've you're qualified to make any such statement unless you work for the power industry or for any of the state electricity boards because you can't do simple arthimetic and look at power generation in Watts.

Do you have any background in electrical engineering - not electronics or computer engineering before making bullshit claims. This discussion is starting to resemble those who claim perpetual motion machines are the solution to all power problems.



That is a strawman's argument because we all know that the energy is coming from somewhere, i.e., the sun and has not yet been consumed into various forms of energy by plant based processes or geological chemistry processes. When we are capturing the energy from the sun, who the f*ck cares about efficiency when we only need to capture less than .1% of the sun's energy hitting earth. The real challenge is capturing the energy and storing it so we can use it at call at any time of the hour, any time of the day, any time of the year. That is why I am of the opinion that we need to double our efforts and focus on improving energy storage devices. Tesla with its powerwall has the right idea. Now it is just a matter of making bigger and better battery and improving one generation after next like Moore's Law or the Japanese mode of improvement. With enough resources and given time, I am convinced we will get to the point where energy storage devices would be improved to the point that it renders coal, diesel, even nuclear, and other sources of energy irrelevant and obsolete. Investing in nuclear as backup power sources, these improved energy storage devices will capture all the energy we need from the sun and store it for any time to our liking.

You need to think outside of the box.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 04 Nov 2016 10:21

Dinesh S wrote:
The average price at which the government purchase from coal plants is 2.5-3 rupees per kWhr and yet 250% higher cost of 7rupees/kWhr and 100% higher cost of 5rupees/kWhr from solar plant is what you justify the solar power based on? And you call this the future? In what world does buying costlier less efficacious products make for better economic sense?

Now i see why it was so easy to brainwash the indians into believing Aryan invasion theory. If enough whites propagandize it, they will even buy horse manure as dev prasad :roll: . Or may be because they all brilliantly think that since it is onleeee government money which is being spent here, its not really costing india anything economically based on commie economic principles and thought. I mean i wouldnt be surprised.



That price for coal is not static and is subject to market forces while the price for solar is static over the lifetime of the solar powerplant and not subject to market forces.


You are only seeing the trees not the forest.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 04 Nov 2016 12:47

"...Electric cars won’t cause oil demand to peak anytime soon, according to International Energy Agency Executive Director Fatih Birol.

“The oil demand growth is not coming from cars, it’s from trucks, aviation and the petrochemical industry and we don’t have major alternatives to oil products there,” Birol said at the Energy for Tomorrow conference on Thursday in Paris. “I don’t buy the argument that electric cars alone will cause a peak in oil demand at least in short and medium term.”...."

http://www.downstreamtoday.com/news/art ... a_id=54163

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Gyan » 04 Nov 2016 13:40

Power from "New Coal Plants" with Washeries for coal, ash capture & disposal will also be around Rs 5-6 for "base load". Power from Solar/Wind will be around Rs 5-6 in good weather but for base load Rs 15 or thereabouts.

Dinesh S
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 20:41

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 15:46

Hitesh wrote:
Dinesh S wrote:
The average price at which the government purchase from coal plants is 2.5-3 rupees per kWhr and yet 250% higher cost of 7rupees/kWhr and 100% higher cost of 5rupees/kWhr from solar plant is what you justify the solar power based on? And you call this the future? In what world does buying costlier less efficacious products make for better economic sense?

Now i see why it was so easy to brainwash the indians into believing Aryan invasion theory. If enough whites propagandize it, they will even buy horse manure as dev prasad :roll: . Or may be because they all brilliantly think that since it is onleeee government money which is being spent here, its not really costing india anything economically based on commie economic principles and thought. I mean i wouldnt be surprised.



That price for coal is not static and is subject to market forces while the price for solar is static over the lifetime of the solar powerplant and not subject to market forces.


You are only seeing the trees not the forest.


Yes, spending 100% more for unproven unreliable horse manure is seeing the forest . I think I would rather see the trees. Thank you very much

Dinesh S
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 20:41

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dinesh S » 04 Nov 2016 15:48

Gyan wrote:Power from "New Coal Plants" with Washeries for coal, ash capture & disposal will also be around Rs 5-6 for "base load". Power from Solar/Wind will be around Rs 5-6 in good weather but for base load Rs 15 or thereabouts.

Well good. If that is indeed the case, we should use the cheaper coal energy over these new eco friendly ones. Global warming is not our burden to bear. Let the white trash responsible for it fix it.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Nov 2016 16:38

Hitesh wrote:When we are capturing the energy from the sun, who the f*ck cares about efficiency when we only need to capture less than .1% of the sun's energy hitting earth.


This statement reflects absolute ignorance. Again, are you talking about energy or power? The solar flux on the earth's surface is about 1000 W/m^2, so if you capture only 0.1% of it, then this is 1 W/m^2. PV panel efficiency is extremely relevant to solar power.

Hitesh wrote:The real challenge is capturing the energy and storing it so we can use it at call at any time of the hour, any time of the day, any time of the year. That is why I am of the opinion that we need to double our efforts and focus on improving energy storage devices.

This will happen over the next 20 years, but it will be very cost prohibitive.

Hitesh wrote:Tesla with its powerwall has the right idea. Now it is just a matter of making bigger and better battery and improving one generation after next like Moore's Law or the Japanese mode of improvement.

Moore's Law analogy is not applicable to energy storage solutions. Right now energy storage is either chemical or mechanical. EVs today are predicated on lithium batteries which have a genuine safety concern. The biggest problem is range and getting energy per unit weight. For commuting the EV is ideal since it would significantly reduce emission pollution. However, the future will be hydrogen fuel cells over the next 20 years. The fuel cell will be comparable or better than diesel with combustion engine for energy per unit weight.

Hitesh wrote:With enough resources and given time, I am convinced we will get to the point where energy storage devices would be improved to the point that it renders coal, diesel, even nuclear, and other sources of energy irrelevant and obsolete. Investing in nuclear as backup power sources, these improved energy storage devices will capture all the energy we need from the sun and store it for any time to our liking.

You need to think outside of the box.


More hyperbole not backed by fact. I am thinking outside of the box. You simply can't multiply or divide. Today in India if we had hundreds of new coal plants and brought the overall tariff of electricity down to Rs. 3/KWHr unit, then immediately, the very polluting diesel generators in our cities would shut down. The first priority is to bring cheap electricity to metro areas by any means necessary including coal and natural gas. This would go a long way in reducing particulate emissions. GHG emission and global warming are not India's concerns at this time - particulate emissions reduction is. The air in NCR is not breathable, this must change.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 04 Nov 2016 18:54

Mort Walker wrote:
More hyperbole not backed by fact. I am thinking outside of the box. You simply can't multiply or divide. Today in India if we had hundreds of new coal plants and brought the overall tariff of electricity down to Rs. 3/KWHr unit, then immediately, the very polluting diesel generators in our cities would shut down. The first priority is to bring cheap electricity to metro areas by any means necessary including coal and natural gas. This would go a long way in reducing particulate emissions. GHG emission and global warming are not India's concerns at this time - particulate emissions reduction is. The air in NCR is not breathable, this must change.


Opportunity cost indeed!
With ye.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 04 Nov 2016 19:07

Dinesh S wrote:
Hitesh wrote:

That price for coal is not static and is subject to market forces while the price for solar is static over the lifetime of the solar powerplant and not subject to market forces.


You are only seeing the trees not the forest.


Yes, spending 100% more for unproven unreliable horse manure is seeing the forest . I think I would rather see the trees. Thank you very much


Ah I see that you have developed an affinity or perhaps an addiction to the dubious quality of air you breath coming from your own distinctly sources of fuel.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 04 Nov 2016 19:43

Mort Walker wrote:
Hitesh wrote:When we are capturing the energy from the sun, who the f*ck cares about efficiency when we only need to capture less than .1% of the sun's energy hitting earth.


This statement reflects absolute ignorance. Again, are you talking about energy or power? The solar flux on the earth's surface is about 1000 W/m^2, so if you capture only 0.1% of it, then this is 1 W/m^2. PV panel efficiency is extremely relevant to solar power.


Again you show absolute ignorance. Solar flux is not the same all across all the regions. In some places it is higher, some places it is lower. And it varies over time. It flunctuates and hence in a flux. And when you use efficiency, solar flux does not come into the equation but the total amount of power coming in per unit of time and being able to extract it. Basically solar flux references to intensity, not total amount. My point is that when it comes to capturing energy, solar flux becomes of a lesser important variable than variables to how much energy you can capture and store the energy, hence my remark about capturing .1% of the sun's energy hitting earth. If we can capture & store less than .1 of the sun's energy hitting the earth on a daily basis, virtually all of our energy's needs are met. There are places in India where the solar flux are higher than 1000 W/m^2 and places where its lower than 1000 W/m^2. Ideally, you want to situate big solar power farms in those areas exhibiting higher solar flux but then again, when you are there, efficiency doesn't really matter because you are getting an unlimited supply of energy so you don't care about wasting energy supplies or not. What matters is that how much you can capture and store it. That is why when I was doing my own calculations for my own rooftop solar power in my own state where the sun shines on a daily basis and is one of the best areas to get sunlight, even with solar panels hitting nearly 20 to 25% "efficiency" and solar flux hitting more than 1000 W/m2, it didn't make sense for me to go for it because the battery system available is either too small or too expensive to make it practicable to justify the costs considering the power usage I was using. It didn't allow me to go completely off the grid and would not pay back the costs I put in over a 10-15 year period of time which I estimate to be the lifetime of a rooftop solar panel system. Once they make the battery practical and feasible, then I am going for the rooftop solar power and go off the grid completely.

However for people in india, they use power far less than I do and do not enjoy the grid infrastructure I currently enjoy and never will due to the regulatory, political, and social climate currently in existence in India. Based on that, it makes far more sense to employ solar power systems.


Mort Walker wrote:Moore's Law analogy is not applicable to energy storage solutions. Right now energy storage is either chemical or mechanical. EVs today are predicated on lithium batteries which have a genuine safety concern. The biggest problem is range and getting energy per unit weight.


So do gas and diesel fuel types. They also have safety concerns, range concerns, energy per unit weight concerns. The difference is that with lithium batteries, they don't care what source of electricity it comes from and that makes it extremely versatile whereas, IC engines depend on the type of fuel and it has to be that kind of source, offering less versatility.

Mort Walker wrote:For commuting the EV is ideal since it would significantly reduce emission pollution. However, the future will be hydrogen fuel cells over the next 20 years. The fuel cell will be comparable or better than diesel with combustion engine for energy per unit weight.

I researched into this hydrogen fuel technology. Only problem with hydrogen is that you have to expend energy to make hydrogen into an usable form of energy, i.e., you have to split hydrogen from other molecules and into pure hydrogen. Today, the sources of hydrogen comes from fossil fuel sources which defeats the solution in the first place or from bonded molecules such as water. I do not see hydrogen fuel cell as a long term technology. Of course some people would say you could use solar to generate hydrogen fuel but that is really another way of saying that hydrogen is another type of energy storage device.

Mort Walker wrote:
Hitesh wrote:With enough resources and given time, I am convinced we will get to the point where energy storage devices would be improved to the point that it renders coal, diesel, even nuclear, and other sources of energy irrelevant and obsolete. Investing in nuclear as backup power sources, these improved energy storage devices will capture all the energy we need from the sun and store it for any time to our liking.

You need to think outside of the box.


More hyperbole not backed by fact. I am thinking outside of the box. You simply can't multiply or divide. Today in India if we had hundreds of new coal plants and brought the overall tariff of electricity down to Rs. 3/KWHr unit, then immediately, the very polluting diesel generators in our cities would shut down. The first priority is to bring cheap electricity to metro areas by any means necessary including coal and natural gas. This would go a long way in reducing particulate emissions. GHG emission and global warming are not India's concerns at this time - particulate emissions reduction is. The air in NCR is not breathable, this must change.


Actually, a significant portion of the problems attritbuted to the air in NCR comes from farmers burning rice seed husks and movement of cars, trucks, and humans kicking up dust and having the hot air picking up those dust and carrying it over. India is a very dry and dusty place for the 8-10 months of the year, due to the Himalayan mountain range blocking most of the cool air coming down from the north. The amount of pollutants created by those diesel generators only contribute less than 10% of the air pollution problem. But I do agree with you on the fact that we need to improve the grid and the infrastructure. If we fix the electricity grid alone, we would save 30% in terms of cost and pollution. We are burning more than 30% more just to make the same amount of electricity because of the vast and huge inefficiencies. However that presents a problem in our own right because it requires a central concerted plan which is subjected to the whims of politicians such as the antics of Kerjiwal, bureaucrats, clueless judges, various NGOs seeking environmental impact studies and claiming to protect the minerals for the good of all people and saving the forests, and commies seeking free electricity and demanding that "other" people pay for it and then it really becomes very hard to pull the whole plan off and takes a long time to do it. However with solar power, you can cut through the Gordian knot and provide some basic level of power at grassroots level, reducing the need for the use of backup diesel power generators

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Nov 2016 17:18

Hitesh wrote:
Again you show absolute ignorance. Solar flux is not the same all across all the regions. In some places it is higher, some places it is lower. And it varies over time. It flunctuates and hence in a flux. And when you use efficiency, solar flux does not come into the equation but the total amount of power coming in per unit of time and being able to extract it. Basically solar flux references to intensity, not total amount. My point is that when it comes to capturing energy, solar flux becomes of a lesser important variable than variables to how much energy you can capture and store the energy, hence my remark about capturing .1% of the sun's energy hitting earth. If we can capture & store less than .1 of the sun's energy hitting the earth on a daily basis, virtually all of our energy's needs are met. There are places in India where the solar flux are higher than 1000 W/m^2 and places where its lower than 1000 W/m^2. Ideally, you want to situate big solar power farms in those areas exhibiting higher solar flux but then again, when you are there, efficiency doesn't really matter because you are getting an unlimited supply of energy so you don't care about wasting energy supplies or not. What matters is that how much you can capture and store it. That is why when I was doing my own calculations for my own rooftop solar power in my own state where the sun shines on a daily basis and is one of the best areas to get sunlight, even with solar panels hitting nearly 20 to 25% "efficiency" and solar flux hitting more than 1000 W/m2, it didn't make sense for me to go for it because the battery system available is either too small or too expensive to make it practicable to justify the costs considering the power usage I was using. It didn't allow me to go completely off the grid and would not pay back the costs I put in over a 10-15 year period of time which I estimate to be the lifetime of a rooftop solar panel system. Once they make the battery practical and feasible, then I am going for the rooftop solar power and go off the grid completely.

However for people in india, they use power far less than I do and do not enjoy the grid infrastructure I currently enjoy and never will due to the regulatory, political, and social climate currently in existence in India. Based on that, it makes far more sense to employ solar power systems.


Wow! I mean wow. I don't think you've ever studied electricity and magnetism. The solar flux is essentially the solar constant on the surface of the earth on with clear skies. It is approximately 1027 W/m^2. It doesn't really increase more than that, it only decreases on the earth's surface. I don't think you understand the difference between power and energy.

Me and everyone else here is very interested to see your calculations on energy and what sort of power solar can generate. It makes all sorts of sense to have it on residential homes, villages, and businesses to handle peak loads during the day - and places like India where there are frequent power outages.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Gyan » 05 Nov 2016 19:50

It will be big achievement for India even if we are able to assure 4-6 hours between 10am to 4pm electricity for whole of India especially the Rural India. Assuming peak usage at double normal usuage, solar PV can take over lot of daytime peak load. Having said that we really need to get into off shore wind energy also. Renewables will be very important and will continue to suppress the price of fossil fuels but storage technology is not going to improve enough in next 30-40 years for renewables to provide baseload at better price than coal, gas, nuclear etc.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 05 Nov 2016 20:17

Mort Walker wrote:
Wow! I mean wow. I don't think you've ever studied electricity and magnetism. The solar flux is essentially the solar constant on the surface of the earth on with clear skies.


No it is not constant on the surface. It may be somewhat constant *before* it hits the earth's atmosphere. Even your own link points out the misconception. Here I shall quote it for you:
wiki wrote:The solar "constant" is not a physical constant in the modern CODATA scientific sense; it varies in value, and has been called a "misconception"

The sun undergoes changes periodically and when it does, even the solar constant changes. Now when it hits the atmosphere, it gets splattered into different amounts all over the region because of refraction, gases in the atmosphere, air density, etc., all those variables in the atmosphere and not to mention height. So solar density do really change from place to place and at different times.

Mort Walker wrote:It is approximately 1027 W/m^2. It doesn't really increase more than that, it only decreases on the earth's surface. I don't think you understand the difference between power and energy.

Again you have not taken the earth's atmosphere into account. Earth's atmosphere is not static and changes over time and places.

Mort Walker wrote:Me and everyone else here is very interested to see your calculations on energy and what sort of power solar can generate. It makes all sorts of sense to have it on residential homes, villages, and businesses to handle peak loads during the day - and places like India where there are frequent power outages.


Yes it makes sense for solar to handle peak loads and combined with current energy storage devices, can act to serve as back up power generators for hours and even out the power outtages, cutting down the need for diesel generators. However, I am of the firm belief that India must invest in the R&D of bigger, more powerful, more efficient energy storage devices because once we do, we can replace coal and other thermal power plants as sources of base power. Combined with solar's scalabality and versatility. we don't need to go for huge mega power plants that take years, huge capital, and tons of political support to pull off. Now villages and towns don't have to go to the Centre and power players and engage in the cronyism and corruption to get power to their villages and towns. They can bypass that and develop their own power system. That will only happen when we can put together 10 or more Mwh battery system capable of 5000 cycles or more at affordable cost. The solar panels are the least expensive part of the equation.

In fact, I was thinking of a hybrid system. With solar panels, you can also attach a high efficiency wind mill that is bird friendly (it generates a frequency that scares away birds, sort of a digital scarecrow) so it doesn't harm wildlife. So you get both. If there are cloudy days, that usually means lots of wind and wind mill should be generating power. I do not believe that solar can function on its own without wind. Solar and wind, in my opinion, goes hand to hand. And you should add a back up generator such as natural gas or LPG generator to ensure that the battery packs remain filled up for those times when you may end up getting no power from solar or wind for a long stretch period of time. The good thing about that is that most of the time you will get solar or wind and end up only using the back up generator for a fraction of time as to normally using them for long periods of times. We just have to work out the kinks and put together a smart system that does all of those things. This is not impossible to pull it off. I believe that India has the resources and manpower to create such an electric system.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6129
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby disha » 05 Nov 2016 22:06

Just found this funny:

I researched into this hydrogen fuel technology. Only problem with hydrogen is that you have to expend energy to make hydrogen into an usable form of energy,i.e., you have to split hydrogen from other molecules and into pure hydrogen. Today, the sources of hydrogen comes from fossil fuel sources which defeats the solution in the first place or from bonded molecules such as water. I do not see hydrogen fuel cell as a long term technology. Of course some people would say you could use solar to generate hydrogen fuel but that is really another way of saying that hydrogen is another type of energy storage device.


One has to expend energy to obtain usable form of energy.

Extracting crude and splitting it (or distillation) takes energy. So does its transport and into a form factor into an usable form of energy. On top of it - it is very dirty.

Solar cells also need to be manufactured by first obtaining extremely pure silicon crystal. Which is obtained by burning tonnes of high grade coal. Yes., for a tonne of Silicon., assume 2 tonnes of coal being expended. This is again dirty. It is renewable only after 7 years.

Hydropower requires big and small dams., and dams do have their issues.

Hydrogen fuel based economy is not there yet., but capturing methane and splitting it to obtain hydrogen is not necessarily a bad idea. The gas hydrates at the bottom of the ocean are plenty. But then the resultant carbon has to go somewhere.

Nuclear is the only cleanest energy! And it is cheap. Particularly the 3rd stage nuclear costs much less. It has its issues like long gestation periods and away from population centers. But former coal mines can be used as sites for nuclear plants.

An ideal combination will be a nuclear-solar energy. That is have dedicated plants to produce advanced solar cells like Perovskite solar cells on the cheap with advanced battery storage for diverse use cases - and not just rooftop solar! Further nuclear energy will cover for base load.

So to say that solar energy is the single bullet that solves all of India's problems (or world's energy needs) is a hyperbole. For next 2-3 human generations, a smorgasbord of energy options will be required to sustain the human civilization.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 00:05

Hiteshji,

Please seek professional help before putting panels on your home. The last thing anyone of us wants is someone getting hurt who doesn't know how to multiply or divide.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5845
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Amber G. » 06 Nov 2016 03:28

If we can capture & store less than .1 of the sun's energy hitting the earth on a daily basis, virtually all of our energy's needs are met.

On a typical day energy hitting the *whole* earth (if you consider outer atmosphere, as part of the earth) is about 1.5*10^22 joules... good enough for about 50 years of typical energy consumption of the whole planet. (That is we have to just switch on our "capturing" for a single day then relax and keep using it for 50 years) ... Even if we capture only 0.1% (= 1/1000th), and say only 1/3 of that we can store and use.. we can run this every Sunday (Day of the Sun) and relax for the whole week..

Now only part left is how do we go and capture that 0.1%? (And economically)

We can get the similar energy if we had anti-neutron star of the size of 0.1 mm (about a metric ton) and combine it with about a ton of normal metal and store and use that flash of gamma energy produced..

Till that happen, may be we have to use coal, nuclear, solar or anything we can .. all combination ... Just saying :)..
Last edited by Amber G. on 06 Nov 2016 04:52, edited 1 time in total.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 04:46

Amber G. wrote:On a typical day energy hitting the *whole* earth (if you consider outer atmosphere, as part of the earth) is about 1.5*10^22 joules... good enough for about 50 years of typical energy consumption of the whole planet. (That is we have to just switch on our "capturing" for a single day then relax and keep using it for 50 years) ... Even if we capture only 0.1% (= 1/1000th), and say only 1/3 of that we can store and use.. we can run this every Sunday (Day of the Sun) and relax for the whole week..


This assumes that photovoltaic cells have a quantum efficiency across the entire electromagnetic spectrum. All of the PV cells today convert mostly visible, and maybe some infrared, photons to electrons.

That said, we need to think outside of the box as Hiteshji said and build our Dyson Sphere with utmost urgency. We can get some hints from the folks doing Tabby star or EPIC 204278916 on how to "capture" this 0.1% of solar energy.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 06 Nov 2016 06:26

Mort Walker wrote:Hiteshji,

Please seek professional help before putting panels on your home. The last thing anyone of us wants is someone getting hurt who doesn't know how to multiply or divide.


Fine talk coming from someone who post a link rebutting/contradicting his own post!

As for multiplying and dividing you seems to be using imaginary numbers.

And for installing panels already been there and done it n helped out a friend installing the solar panels. It's not rocket science. I'm sure you can handle it if you can let go of your imaginary numbers.

By the way (added later), I am not allowed to install solar panels on my roof or I void the insurance coverage on my roof. Not a good idea considering where I live (Florida or otherwise known as Hurricane alley) so must have professionally licensed contractors for any kind of work on my roof, including even pressure cleaning. My friend, fortunately, lives in another state that doesn't have that kind of restrictions and lives in a rural part. We installed the solar panels on his barn roof. It was quite a feat! Considering the steep slope of the barn roof. In fact the hardest part of the job was making numerous trips to the local hardware when we realize we were missing a crucial part or tool to complete the installation. Was such a pain in the @ss but a great learning curve.
Last edited by Hitesh on 06 Nov 2016 07:41, edited 2 times in total.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 06 Nov 2016 07:02

Amber G. wrote:
If we can capture & store less than .1 of the sun's energy hitting the earth on a daily basis, virtually all of our energy's needs are met.

On a typical day energy hitting the *whole* earth (if you consider outer atmosphere, as part of the earth) is about 1.5*10^22 joules... good enough for about 50 years of typical energy consumption of the whole planet. (That is we have to just switch on our "capturing" for a single day then relax and keep using it for 50 years) ... Even if we capture only 0.1% (= 1/1000th), and say only 1/3 of that we can store and use.. we can run this every Sunday (Day of the Sun) and relax for the whole week..

Now only part left is how do we go and capture that 0.1%? (And economically)

We can get the similar energy if we had anti-neutron star of the size of 0.1 mm (about a metric ton) and combine it with about a ton of normal metal and store and use that flash of gamma energy produced..

Till that happen, may be we have to use coal, nuclear, solar or anything we can .. all combination ... Just saying :)..


Maybe you didn't get the context of my posts and arguments with Mort Walker. He made the point that solar efficiency is important and not efficient as coal or nuclear. My rebuttal was that it doesn't really matter in the end. The reason being, is that there are plenty of sunlight and efficiency is the least of our concerns, hence my post of using less than .1% to show that there is so much sunlight and energy out there that efficiency is the least of our concern.

Sunlight is not a 24 hour period or even 12 hour or 8 hour period. It comes in bursts or in 5 hours or on days of clear sunny skies but not on cloudy days. That itself makes sunlight in the current form an unsteady supply of power and you cannot build an power infrastructure out of that. People including Mort Walker and others are saying that it is only good for peak power. I am saying that is not true. We can make it usable as base power if we can create/improve the energy capture storage devices.

In my example, I currently use 100 kwh/day on average for my power consumption. I know that I can easily get more than 100 kwh of sunlight in 3 or 4 hours even using the most inefficient solar panels but the problem is that there is no way to capture all that energy, store it, and meter it out according to my consumption on a daily basis. There is no energy storage device technology right now capable of storing my daily energy needs, energy reserve for the days we get no sunlight, and meter it out in a steady supply in a cost effective manner.

That is the problem with solar power - energy storage capacity and the economics of it, not solar efficiency. I could get the most efficient solar panel out there that, let's say... 60%, it still won't do me any good if I do not have the energy storage device that goes with it.

But that is for my situation in America where there is already an infrastructure in place to give me plenty of affordable electricity on a reliable steady basis. You will not find that in India nor likely to find that because the regulatory, political, economical, and socio climate are too much of a barrier to pull that off. And moreover, on a per capita basis right now, the people's power consumption are vastly less than mine (yeah i know i come across like an elite schmuck when I say my power needs are more than some people in India but I am just pointing out some facts). Instead of waiting forever to get the power they were promised by their leaders and politicians, they can get some power for at least some hours of the day and night if they get a battery hooked up. That is shades better than they have right now. With that, they can create an opportunity for making an unique system that can work for India.

This reminds me of the story of two shoe businessman - here it is:
There is a tale about these two shoe salesmen who travel to a third world country in search of new business opportunities.

One man calls his wife the moment he lands, telling her, “Honey, I’m coming back home. There’s no hope here. Nobody here is wearing shoes, so there’s no one to sell to.” He boards the next flight home.

The second man calls his wife and says, “Honey, you wouldn’t believe what I found here. There is so much opportunity. No one here is wearing shoes. I can sell to the whole country!”

There’s opportunity everywhere. When we have a consciousness of expecting the magic to happen, it will happen. We’ll find the right people, we’ll move in the right circles, we’ll ‘bump’ into the right solutions. It all starts with that opening in the mind.


This is no dyson sphere we are talking about but taking what we have right now and making something about it. It is called making lemons into lemonade, a point that some posters have missed.

disha wrote:
Just found this funny:

Hitesh wrote: I researched into this hydrogen fuel technology. Only problem with hydrogen is that you have to expend energy to make hydrogen into an usable form of energy,i.e., you have to split hydrogen from other molecules and into pure hydrogen. Today, the sources of hydrogen comes from fossil fuel sources which defeats the solution in the first place or from bonded molecules such as water. I do not see hydrogen fuel cell as a long term technology. Of course some people would say you could use solar to generate hydrogen fuel but that is really another way of saying that hydrogen is another type of energy storage device.


One has to expend energy to obtain usable form of energy.


Of course but why do things the hard way when someone else or something has already done the expending of energy?

disha wrote:Extracting crude and splitting it (or distillation) takes energy. So does its transport and into a form factor into an usable form of energy. On top of it - it is very dirty.

Solar cells also need to be manufactured by first obtaining extremely pure silicon crystal. Which is obtained by burning tonnes of high grade coal. Yes., for a tonne of Silicon., assume 2 tonnes of coal being expended. This is again dirty. It is renewable only after 7 years.


Of course right now it is obtained by burning tones of high grade coal but once we start putting renewables and substitute others in place of coal, the consumption of coal will go down. You can't make sausage without getting dirty first.


disha wrote:Hydropower requires big and small dams., and dams do have their issues.

I was a huge fan of dams before but now not so for power generation. Perhaps for flooding and irrigation control but not for power generation. The conversion rate is not worth the cost.


disha wrote:Hydrogen fuel based economy is not there yet., but capturing methane and splitting it to obtain hydrogen is not necessarily a bad idea. The gas hydrates at the bottom of the ocean are plenty. But then the resultant carbon has to go somewhere.

Again the cost of getting hydrogen will get prohibitively expensive once we run out of the cheap sources of hydrogen which is tied to the sources of fossil fuels. here's a good primer on this: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 6/4199381/

disha wrote:Nuclear is the only cleanest energy! And it is cheap.

You do know that the sun is the largest fusion reactor in this solar system and that fusion is a type of nuclear?

disha wrote:An ideal combination will be a nuclear-solar energy. That is have dedicated plants to produce advanced solar cells like Perovskite solar cells on the cheap with advanced battery storage for diverse use cases - and not just rooftop solar! Further nuclear energy will cover for base load.


Good plan which will work in the developed world where there is already an infrastructure in place. Not so in India. The barriers that I mention still exist there.

disha wrote:So to say that solar energy is the single bullet that solves all of India's problems (or world's energy needs) is a hyperbole. For next 2-3 human generations, a smorgasbord of energy options will be required to sustain the human civilization.


I never said that it was the silver bullet, but you can't go wrong with going solar especially when you have 400 million Indians without any kind of power. Supply 4-6 hours of power with solar to these people is a vast step in the right direction because it is scalable and implementable with the existing capital constraints there.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5845
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Amber G. » 06 Nov 2016 07:37

Hitesh wrote:== quote="Amber G." ==
On a typical day energy hitting the *whole* earth (if you consider outer atmosphere, as part of the earth) is about 1.5*10^22 joules... <snip>

Maybe you didn't get the context of my posts and arguments with Mort Walker..

Hiteshji - If you have not guessed .. mine was spoken in light-hearted way..just some figures which *may* be interesting but not taken seriously *specially* in the context the debate was going on..

My comments should not discourage you from putting your thoughts.. (or spend too much time in any kind of unnecessary rebuttal).

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 08:06

Hitesh wrote:
Fine talk coming from someone who post a link rebutting/contradicting his own post!

As for multiplying and dividing you seems to be using imaginary numbers.

And for installing panels already been there and done it n helped out a friend installing the solar panels. It's not rocket science. I'm sure you can handle it if you can let go of your imaginary numbers.

By the way (added later), I am not allowed to install solar panels on my roof or I void the insurance coverage on my roof. Not a good idea considering where I live (Florida or otherwise known as Hurricane alley) so must have professionally licensed contractors for any kind of work on my roof, including even pressure cleaning. My friend, fortunately, lives in another state that doesn't have that kind of restrictions and lives in a rural part. We installed the solar panels on his barn roof. It was quite a feat! Considering the steep slope of the barn roof. In fact the hardest part of the job was making numerous trips to the local hardware when we realize we were missing a crucial part or tool to complete the installation. Was such a pain in the @ss but a great learning curve.


I don't think you understand what the 1000 W/m^2 is. As I said earlier, with clear skies is the maximum. Total power per unit area is actually going to be less. It is not going to increase 20%. There is little variation for an increase. Also, I never discouraged putting solar panels on residential use and even mentioned that it would also help charge an EV as well. However, you can not scale up from residential use to large scale commercial power generation. It can't compete with coal, gas or nuclear. Oh and BTW, imaginary numbers are known as complex numbers.

I have no need for solar panels since I can never recover the cost since I don't plan to live where I'm at for decades. Electricity is about $0.07/KWHr, thanks to coal. It would be nice to have a back up power source with solar, but instead I got a Honda gasoline generator. I can take it with me when I move.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5845
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Amber G. » 06 Nov 2016 09:53

Total solar radiation is approx 1370 W/m2 above atmosphere. At the Earth's surface,is about 1,000 W/m2 for a surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at sea level on a clear day (maximum) .. average over the earth taken over 24 hours is about 160 W/m^2 (theoretical maximum).. For practical calculations .. Best values for for solar panels I have seen is about 150-200 Watt/m^2 averaged out on a good sunny day.. Am I missing something?

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 12:19

Amber G. wrote:Total solar radiation is approx 1370 W/m2 above atmosphere. At the Earth's surface,is about 1,000 W/m2 for a surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at sea level on a clear day (maximum) .. average over the earth taken over 24 hours is about 160 W/m^2 (theoretical maximum).. For practical calculations .. Best values for for solar panels I have seen is about 150-200 Watt/m^2 averaged out on a good sunny day.. Am I missing something?


No, you're not missing anything and that is absolutely correct. About 200 W/m^2 for PV panels works out to 20% efficiency. Some laboratory panels are getting near 40% and in 10 years or so we may see those in actual production. The other issue is that the quantum efficiency of these PV panels degrades over time and they need replacement. The cheap Chinese panels are notorious for this.

In the US, a typical single family house will have 150-230 Amp service at 120 Volts. For a peak power consumption of 18-28 KW. The biggest power load on a home, again in the US, is the air conditioning system. I'll say this again, the easiest thing to do is switch residential power from AC to DC. This way things like LED lighting could be done without the use of a power supply and the losses associated with converting from AC to DC. This is something we need to think about in India and certainly help implement solar power in villages and residential use.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 06 Nov 2016 12:40

Mort Walker wrote:
In the US, a typical single family house will have 150-230 Amp service at 120 Volts.


:-o Seriously, what kinda castle is this ?!! :!:

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 20:39

Rammpal wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
In the US, a typical single family house will have 150-230 Amp service at 120 Volts.


:-o Seriously, what kinda castle is this ?!! :!:


If you live in the US, look at your service panel and meter. You can see from the main breaker what it is rated at. Having at least 150 Amp service is common. It is excess capacity to avoid the main breaker tripping based on National Electric Code (NEC). The quality of life improves dramatically with cheap electricity.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 06 Nov 2016 21:51

Mort Walker wrote:I don't think you understand what the 1000 W/m^2 is. As I said earlier, with clear skies is the maximum. Total power per unit area is actually going to be less. It is not going to increase 20%. There is little variation for an increase. Also, I never discouraged putting solar panels on residential use and even mentioned that it would also help charge an EV as well. However, you can not scale up from residential use to large scale commercial power generation. It can't compete with coal, gas or nuclear. Oh and BTW, imaginary numbers are known as complex numbers.

About 200 W/m^2 for PV panels works out to 20% efficiency. Some laboratory panels are getting near 40% and in 10 years or so we may see those in actual production. The other issue is that the quantum efficiency of these PV panels degrades over time and they need replacement. The cheap Chinese panels are notorious for this.


*sighs* *bangs head against wall*

How big is your house? Mine is nearly 300 sq m^2s. At 15-20% ratings, I get a potential of 45kw per hour. Given my power consumption of 100kwh daily on average, I only need less than 4.2 kw per hour consumption and during my peak time, it goes up to 12 kw per hour. However, I only get 5 to 8 hours of usable sunlight so that means I need to generate 20 kw to 12 kw per hour. Based on that I only require an area of 80 sq m^2, which is less than 1/3 of my roof area to generate 12 kw. That is at 15% rating. At 20% rating, it is 60. We are already there with the power generation. But that is not the problem. The problem is that I need to be able to consume power for 24 hours continuously, not for 8 hours based on sunlight. So I need to store enough energy to last me 24 hours and feed off that energy according to my power consumption. And not only that have enough reserve to account for the cloudy days or days of no sunlight. So based on that, I need to generate 120kwh total per day to meet my daily needs and reserve power requirements. Divide that by 5-8 hours of sunlight and you arrive at 24 kw to 15 kw generation capability. Using the 15% rating, I require an area of from 160m^2 to 100 m^2 which is still half or less of my roof area and is doable. I only need 80 panels to get 20 kwh (see this: http://www.wholesalesolar.com/1970260/a ... olar-panel) and at 80 panels with 1.6 sq meters per panel, I only need 129 sq meters which easily fits onto my roof.

However i have need to store that energy to meet the 24 hour period. That is where the problem is, not the efficiency. Right now the battery costs is around $5,500 if you want to get a powerwall 2.0 (gives 13.5kwh) with $1000 installation cost. Our solar panels are efficient enough because our power generation needs are that we only need around 150 Watts per m^2 or less, not more. What we need is to store the energy we obtain so we can use for 24 hours on a daily basis. We need to cut down on the cost of production of solar panels and the energy storage devices. Since I currently pay around $.095/kwh and generally use around 2600 kwh a month, it comes around to be $250 and $3000 for the year. For me to break even at the 10 year mark, the total system for the panels and battery and installation needs to be around $30k or at the 15 year mark, it has to be at $45k.

Right now, if I want the system to be off grid, I would have to shell out $30k for the solar panels itself, $61k (11 powerwall 2.0 at $5.5k each) and installation & permits cost which can add up to around $100k to $110k. Based on that, I would need 40 years to break even or actually 45 years to take account of inflation costs. Right there, the biggest cost would be the batteries, not the solar panels. We need to reduce the battery cost to 1/3 or 1/4 of the current costs. TThe solar panels can be reduced by 30-40%. It is doable and not impossible to pull off within the next 5 years.


Mort Walker wrote:In the US, a typical single family house will have 150-230 Amp service at 120 Volts. For a peak power consumption of 18-28 KW. The biggest power load on a home, again in the US, is the air conditioning system. I'll say this again, the easiest thing to do is switch residential power from AC to DC. This way things like LED lighting could be done without the use of a power supply and the losses associated with converting from AC to DC. This is something we need to think about in India and certainly help implement solar power in villages and residential use.


HVDC may have lower losses but it still suffers from a lot of disadvantages that AC doesn't have and can be generally more expensive in the long run. You still need to step down the high voltage into lower voltage for use by a lot of devices and creating multiterminal systems are more complex with HVDC systems.
Last edited by Hitesh on 06 Nov 2016 22:08, edited 2 times in total.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 06 Nov 2016 21:52

Mort Walker wrote:
Rammpal wrote:
:-o Seriously, what kinda castle is this ?!! :!:


If you live in the US, look at your service panel and meter. You can see from the main breaker what it is rated at. Having at least 150 Amp service is common. It is excess capacity to avoid the main breaker tripping based on National Electric Code (NEC). The quality of life improves dramatically with cheap electricity.


Mine is rated at 220 amps. I upgraded my system from aluminum cable which is a real fire hazard to copper cable combined with an uprated 220 amp system.

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 06 Nov 2016 22:14

Hitesh wrote:
HVDC may have lower losses...........


Hold it right there !!
Don't whisper that away like that please.

However..
The step up-step down flexibility that AC has, is divine indeed !
But, and , that's a big a.s but;
Is it worth it ?

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6571
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Nov 2016 22:52

I've said this before, having solar power for residential or village use makes all sorts of sense. Storage is the ability to convert electrical energy to chemical energy and then back to electrical energy when you need it. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, you would have to use lead-acid or lithium batteries. Both of these have immense safety and maintenance issues should you have a lot of them. Once you start talking about Rube Goldberg mechanical devices to store energy, then losses become immense and not practical on a large scale. Battery and material science technology has a long way to go and progress will be seen in the EV market. This is where energy per unit weight, reliability and safety will be key. Then again, we'll probably see a big jump in hydrogen fuel cells for consumer use before battery technology sees significant improvement.

Personally, for me, solar panels are not cost effective as I could never recover the cost and maintenance would be high where I live with frequent severe thunderstorms and tornadoes with large hail. It would be more cost effective for me to use a wind turbine which I've looked in to.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Hitesh » 07 Nov 2016 03:32

You can still use solar but in conjunction with a wind turbine. However wind turbine is only effective at large industrial scale. See here: http://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsD ... while.aspx

where they discuss the merits of a roof top turbine. Based on that, I would just find an empty plot of land and build a big turbine right on it and combine it with solar panels and power a village instead of a single house.

And check this link out and read the comments. The comments are very illuminating and details the experience of having wind and solar power. http://www.homepower.com/articles/wind- ... %99s-guide

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 14 Nov 2016 08:25


uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1737
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 14 Nov 2016 09:33

Rammpal wrote:https://cleantechnica.com/2016/09/21/china-japan-russia-south-korea-plan-renewable-energy-super-grid/

No India ?!!


Map shows India.

Image

Rammpal
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:21

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Rammpal » 14 Nov 2016 10:37

^^^MoU, no India.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests