Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

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chaanakya
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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 15 Aug 2011 18:02

Almost , all manuals provide firing as a method of last resort for crown control. As training, capability and methods improve , there is less need for firing , even in extreme situations.Such a system may not be obtainable in many rural or even urban districts in India.

But one needs to understand that crowd in India can have different characteristics than those of advanced countries where civil order and obedience to law is a norm rather than exception.

There are many things which are inherited from colonial period and that includes general disdain for observance of law. That leads to difficulty in control of order.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 15 Aug 2011 19:48

chaanakya wrote:Almost , all manuals provide firing as a method of last resort for crown control. As training, capability and methods improve , there is less need for firing , even in extreme situations.Such a system may not be obtainable in many rural or even urban districts in India.

But one needs to understand that crowd in India can have different characteristics than those of advanced countries where civil order and obedience to law is a norm rather than exception.

There are many things which are inherited from colonial period and that includes general disdain for observance of law. That leads to difficulty in control of order.


I disagree. If you investigate, you will find that crowd control manuals in no advanced Western democracy call for generalised firing, under any circumstance. If attacked, an officer may open fire in a particular instance. But this idea of "shooting at a crowd in general", is never allowed.

For goodness sakes, politicians and police in the UK were willing to watch half of London burn rather than allowing for shooting (or even water cannon) to be used. There were very hostile crowds, and they were viciously attacking police and fire services too, with stones, bricks, sticks...

And frankly, its a rather pathetic commentary when our own citizens say things like "our people are not as advanced as Western people, and need to be shot". This is not only not true, but its insulting.

There are many things which are inherited from colonial period and that includes general disdain for observance of law. That leads to difficulty in control of order.


In particular, the above statement sounds like utter nonsense. Tell me that the feral and destructive crowds in the London riots were any better than any crowd anywhere else in the World.

Our forefathers didnt fight for and win independence to have our own police shoot at our own citizens like a Jallianwala bagh massacre. This is a brutal and inhuman practice which MUST stop.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 15 Aug 2011 20:09

Firing is never generalised, it is always in response to specific situations and as a method of last resort. And I stand by that,Most of the manuals ,incl those of advanced democracies, do provide for firing notwithstanding your belief.

As for London rioters, I would merely say that its more like politisiation and police expressing strong disagreement with political leadership that allowed the situation to deteriorate. Read up the events leading to rioting. It was uncalled for firing on a Youth resulting in death and then police not intervening adequately for crowd control.

What sounds insulting, pathetic and utter nonsense to you is rather a fact. It is in our best interest to understand this and work to remedy .

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 15 Aug 2011 22:27

chaanakya wrote:Firing is never generalised, it is always in response to specific situations and as a method of last resort. And I stand by that,Most of the manuals ,incl those of advanced democracies, do provide for firing notwithstanding your belief.

As for London rioters, I would merely say that its more like politisiation and police expressing strong disagreement with political leadership that allowed the situation to deteriorate. Read up the events leading to rioting. It was uncalled for firing on a Youth resulting in death and then police not intervening adequately for crowd control.

What sounds insulting, pathetic and utter nonsense to you is rather a fact. It is in our best interest to understand this and work to remedy .


By generalised firing, I mean firing at a crowd in general, and not at an individual in particular. Whether in response to this, or to that, it is wrong.

I am unable to understand your comments on the London riots. It was not any response to an "uncalled for firing". It was a general act of hoodlum violence, as you will understand from the news reports on the topic. The killing of the gangster (he had a weapon on him when police shot him) was merely an excuse. The rest of your assertions I have not understood. There was a riot. Extreme violence was displayed by the crowd. The police did not open fire, and the politicians refused to deploy water cannons.

I dont understand what is a "fact" according to you either. The "fact" is, that I have not heard of a firing by police units into a crowd, in the last 40 years in any western democracy. The last I know of was the Kent State University shootings on 4 May 1970, in America, by ARMY units ordered to control a protest. Its never happened after that. So I am pretty sure its not authorised.

Now if you think it is, please reproduce any western police manual that reccommends firing at a crowd at large, rather than individuals in particular, in response to anything, here. It would be better that we are able to examine the proof of this so called "fact", rather than simply having to take your word for it.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 03:05

In the case of violent unlawful assemblies, firearms should only be used if less
dangerous means are not available and only to the minimum extent necessary

Section 14 U.N Basic Principles for the Use of Force and Firearms


Below quoted is from Kerala PM
A warning shot in the air or firing over the heads of the crowd is not permitted
* An armed force should maintain a safe distance from a dangerous crowd to
prevent being overwhelmed, or increasing the chances of inflicting heavy
casualties
*Aim should be kept low and directed at the most threatening part of the
crowd
* Firing should cease the moment the crowd show signs of dispersing
*The fullest warning in a clear and distinct manner must be given to the crowd
to inform them that the firing will be effective


You can read it all in detail when Force is depolyed to assist civil authorities to quel a riot in USA.
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-15.pdf
In the past, commanders were limited to the type of force they could apply to quell a riot. Riot
batons, riot control agents, or lethal force were often used. Today, there is a wide array of
nonlethal weapons (NLW) available to the commander that extends his use of force along the
force continuum. This manual addresses the use of nonlethal (NL) and lethal forces when quelling
a riot.

http://administration.berkeley.edu/prb/ ... Policy.pdf
POLICE ACTION:
While it is highly desirable to avoid situations that require physical police intervention, it is recognized
that they will occur. A variety of techniques and tactics may be necessary to resolve a civil disobedience
or crowd control incident. The tactics utilized in a particular situation will depend upon available
resources and the situation itself. The decisions to use force and the force options that may be applied in
response to these incidents range from law enforcement presence to deadly force. Peace officers need not
use the least intrusive force option, but only that force which is reasonable under the totality of the
circumstances. UCPD utilizes pain compliance techniques to elicit a compliant response if necessary
when making arrests.
The application of nonlethal chemical agents, including Oleoresin Capsicum (OC), has proven effective in
a wide variety of civil disobedience situations. This department utilizes OC as a defensive and offensive
weapon. The standard hand-held canister is not normally intended to be used by officers to disperse a
crowd but it may if necessary. Generally OC should only be used at the direction of a supervisor in a
crowd control situation. Immediate use may be appropriate for self defense in the event of a personal
attack or breach of the line or other exigent circumstances.
“Less lethal” force options such as Chemical Agents, Flexible Baton rounds, and other impact weapons
may be deployed to disperse a crowd at the discretion of the Overall Commander. The deployment of
such Less Lethal options shall be in accordance with the Department’s written policies (refer GO-F6).
The use of Chemical Agents, smoke, or other Less Lethal devices to disperse a crowd shall be coordinated
and controlled. The Overall Commander shall ensure a clear path is available for these who wish to leave
the area prior to and during the deployment of Less Lethal devices.
UCPD Crowd Management Policy
10 12/15/2000
At such time that it is deemed appropriate to take police action, such as moving a crowd or making arrests
at a sit-in, consideration should be given to communicating the intended action to the crowd in advance.
While giving such advance notice is often desirable, tactical concerns may preclude it. Police personnel
should make such an announcement if it is made. If possible, the Field Commander should ensure that the
area where the unlawful assembly exists is contained prior to reading the dispersal orders so that
additional people do not enter the area.


General Order F1 Use of Less Lethal Force
• General Order F2 Officer Involved Shooting/Use of Deadly Force
• General Order F5 Barricaded Subject/Hostage Situations
• General Order F6 Use of Police Impact Weapons
• General Order F7 Use of Carotid Restraint
• General Order F8 Use of Police Shotgun
• General Order F9 Use of OC


http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/326/documents/108.pdf
The IC and supervisors shall make every effort to ensure that the police response does not exacerbate the situation. The police response will be commensurate with the overall threat if any, to public safety, order maintenance, life and property. The least police intervention needed to address a particular incident shall be deemed most appropriate. This does not preclude police officers from taking appropriate action to direct crowd and vehicular movement, enforce ordinances and statutes and employ the physical force necessary to maintain the safety of the public and emergency personnel.


There may be hundreds of manuals that may exist out there. Sum of all point is Police is not precluded from use of foce, lethal or non lethal, when dealing with crowd control.

And you have described death of a youth as that of gangster , who was unarmed and fired upon in a "Democratic Country"
yet you insult by telling that Indian Police should be hanged. You assume that crowd was not violent and innocent.

As for London Riot remarks, obviously you were not reading newspapers and verbal spat between British PM and Police Commission (I/C) , yes they had three changes at top level and no full term Police Commissioner as yet, plans to prune down 16000 man from rank and file which had made police unhappy and delayed response could be part of their action to show indispensability. Though I am open to corrections as these impressions are based on news reports.

It is quite clear that you have not been in situation where you need to handle crowd especially rioting ones. Idealistic and righteous anger does not count for judgement on Police action.

The question , whether police used excessive force or not, is a matter for later investigation and I have already pointed out.

You need not take my assertions as fact, do investigate yourself rather than making less sense by each post.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 03:24

Found this in another manual applicable to County Sheriff's office El Passo
Deputies shall:
a) NOT fire warning shots.
b) NOT handle a weapon in a manner that results in an accidental discharge.
c) ONLY surrender their firearms in the absence of reasonable alternatives.
d) NOT fire shots from a moving motor vehicle except in self defense or defense of another
from what the deputy reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly
physical force.

Sound similar to what is in Indian Police Manual.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 04:05

ASPuar wrote:I dont understand what is a "fact" according to you either. The "fact" is, that I have not heard of a firing by police units into a crowd, in the last 40 years in any western democracy. The last I know of was the Kent State University shootings on 4 May 1970, in America, by ARMY units ordered to control a protest. Its never happened after that. So I am pretty sure its not authorised.


viewtopic.php?p=1146475#p1146475
Ambar wrote:On the first day of riots we spoke about "Rodney King riots" in LA, and how 30+ rioters were shot dead and riot quelled within 2 days by LAPD. Guess the UK parliamentarians read BRF in their spare time! They have decided to hire the services of Bill Bratton, former LAPD and NYPD police chief to advise the PM and Scotland Yard on dealing with gangs and riots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429



Does that qualify for a fact? That too from "mother of all democracies" which don't kill their citizens.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 16 Aug 2011 13:10

Boss I am sorry to see that you have had to resort to falsehood to try to prove your point.

Whats the meaning of this?

Ambar wrote:On the first day of riots we spoke about "Rodney King riots" in LA, and how 30+ rioters were shot dead and riot quelled within 2 days by LAPD. Guess the UK parliamentarians read BRF in their spare time! They have decided to hire the services of Bill Bratton, former LAPD and NYPD police chief to advise the PM and Scotland Yard on dealing with gangs and riots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429


Does that qualify for a fact? That too from "mother of all democracies" which don't kill their citizens.


The BBC article you have posted contains NOTHING about anyone being shot dead. All you have posted is a claim by BR MEMBER AMBAR that "30+ rioters were shot dead". His opinion is not gospel, sir.

A fraud attempt like this to prove your point is scarcely needed. Your responses are beginning to border on comedy. Now I would suggest that you stop acting like an angry teenager, show some grace, and try not to hoodwink your fellow BR members with false postings. These attempts might work in a school leaving exam, but they dont work on this forum.

Furthermore, I never said Western forces dont use lethal force. I said they dont use it in this manner.

None of those so called police manuals you have shown (I didnt bother to even open the links, after I saw the above fraud post- for all I know, theyre just figments of your imagination) suggest that opening fire into a crowd is condoned. And Bill Bratton's force "Shot Dead" specific rioters under specific situations, like if they opened fire at a cop, or at someone else. There were NO FIRINGS INTO CROWDS as a matter of policy.

You dont know me, and you need not make any assumptions about what my prior experience is, thanks.

I am assuring you that NO police manual abroad suggests "firing live rounds at the legs of members of a crowd" as a crowd control measure, unlike that of Indian police.

Your posts are little more than inarticulate harping on a point, which you have been signally unable to prove. This is an indefensible point. And further more, it is disappointing that you are resorting to cheap deception to try to prove your point. Please try again, in a few years, when youve spent some time here. You will realise it isnt so easy to fool BR.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 17:33

Another useless rant from you.Not even worth replying.I don't have to prove anything as you would fail to see the point as proved in your ignorant cacophony posted above. Thanks

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chetak » 16 Aug 2011 18:01

chaanakya wrote:Does that qualify for a fact? That too from "mother of all democracies" which don't kill their citizens.



An aside, chaanakya ji.


This "mother of all democracies" :shock: ( indeed!! )

never seems to have the least problem in killing, starving to death, brutally oppressing and

stealing from the citizens of other countries.

Must be because they are also a "crowned democracy" :evil:

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 20:04

chetak wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Does that qualify for a fact? That too from "mother of all democracies" which don't kill their citizens.



An aside, chaanakya ji.


This "mother of all democracies" :shock: ( indeed!! )

never seems to have the least problem in killing, starving to death, brutally oppressing and

stealing from the citizens of other countries.

Must be because they are also a "crowned democracy" :evil:


Actually it is UK as Mother of all democracies, though USA always assume the leadership , as you aptly put it "crowned democracy".
You are very right about them killing their own and others however some seem to believe otherwise and seem to eulogize western democracies "Which don't kill" their citizens as per their Police manuals.Any way no more reference on this from me. 8)

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2011 20:34

isnt French the first official western democracy, predating the americans by a few years?

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 16 Aug 2011 21:11

chaanakya wrote:Another useless rant from you.Not even worth replying.I don't have to prove anything as you would fail to see the point as proved in your ignorant cacophony posted above. Thanks


:shock: Amazing. Chaanakya-neatly at its bast!

First Chaanakya-ji posts lies, trying to buttress his fraudulent point with falsehoods. And then he claims that he wont respond, when called out on it. This is truly a Chaanakyan move! :lol:

For anyone else who is interested, here is the article that Chaanakya linked to, trying to pretend that somewhere herein lies something which says that the LAPD under Commissioner Bill Bratton a) shot 30 people dead, and b) allows crowd control shootings according to its "police manual". :roll:

On the contrary, a cursory study of the article, which the great Chaanakya seems to have omitted to do, shows that Mr Bratton is advising a very cautious approach, and the massive escalation he talks about is neighbourhood policing and water cannon. Not live, steel jacketed rounds fired at peoples legs! :mrgreen:

Chaankian, saar... very chaankian! :rotfl:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429

US 'supercop' Bill Bratton says riot arrests not only answer


Communities cannot "arrest their way out" of gang crime, the prime minister's new crime adviser, US "supercop" Bill Bratton, has warned.

The former New York police chief meets David Cameron next month to discuss violence in English cities and says the issue is for society as a whole.

But some police described Mr Bratton's appointment as a "slap in the face".

Ian Hanson of the Greater Manchester Police Federation said Britain did not need someone from "5,000 miles away".

"There is anger, there is disappointment, a degree of incredulity as well," Mr Hanson told ITV News in excerpts to be aired on Saturday.

"What we've witnessed this week has been British policing at its absolute best.

"The police leadership has also stepped forward in support of their officers and the service and now to be given this slap in the face by the prime minister and told that he wants to bring in Bill Bratton to cure all policing ills."

Extra police numbers will be maintained on city streets through the weekend.

But the Chancellor, George Osborne, dismissed calls to reverse cuts to police budgets. He welcomed the advice from Mr Bratton, saying that he would help tackle the "deep-seated social problems" behind the riots.

Mr Bratton, who is also credited with restoring law and order in Los Angeles after the riots there in 1992, told US broadcaster ABC: "You can't arrest your way out of the problem.

"Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue."

Accepting that the necessary changes would not be easy, he added: "Part of what the government is going to do is to take a look at what worked and what didn't work during the course of the last week."

He said he would share his experience of combining tough tactics with community outreach to reduce US gang violence in a bid to prevent recurrences of the violence in the UK.

'Different culture'

Downing Street said Mr Bratton would not be a long-term, paid consultant and would not be formally appointed to any UK police force.

However, Metropolitan Police Federation chairman John Tully said he did not think American advice would help.

"Although he has a glittering record across in the States, it's a different style of policing. The gang culture's different," he said.

Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor was also sceptical.

"The Americans didn't cure the social problems in New York. What they did is they locked people up. That's how zero tolerance works. We haven't got the heart for that over here," he said.
Last edited by ASPuar on 16 Aug 2011 21:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 21:18

Singha wrote:isnt French the first official western democracy, predating the americans by a few years?

Magna Carta 1215AD (UK)
French Revolution 1789AD
American Revolution 1775-83AD

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2011 21:31

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

LAPD riots never happened, not one got killed and police did not use firing as riot control. You are truly ....
Never seen a Police manual and talk about it as if you have read all police manuals in the world. I just posted a few along with UN document on use of fire arms for crowd control which You in your shameless gibberish refuse to see. Any way carry on with your rants. I wont interfere with your brilliantly nonsense. You are ultimate fraud here man. Lets not degenerate it to flames , I have least interest in becoming a internet warrior like you.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 16 Aug 2011 22:03

chaanakya wrote::rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

LAPD riots never happened, not one got killed and police did not use firing as riot control. You are truly ....
Never seen a Police manual and talk about it as if you have read all police manuals in the world. I just posted a few along with UN document on use of fire arms for crowd control which You in your shameless gibberish refuse to see. Any way carry on with your rants. I wont interfere with your brilliantly nonsense. You are ultimate fraud here man. Lets not degenerate it to flames , I have least interest in becoming a internet warrior like you.


Sirji, I never said LAPD riots didnt happen. I never said noone was killed. All I said was, your claim about this article was incorrect. I apologise if you feel that I have flamed you. It was not my intention.

But I assure you that firing into crowds is not practiced in the West. The political cost would be too high! Also, none of the manuals you yourself have posted suggest that firing into a crowd is a method of riot control.

I have simply reposted what you posted to buttress a claim that LAPD killed 30+ people in firing on crowds. A simple reading of it will reassure you that what you said was not what the article reproduced. Why are you getting angry if I showed everyone the article you posted?

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Virupaksha » 17 Aug 2011 01:49

ASPuar wrote:But I assure you that firing into crowds is not practiced in the West. The political cost would be too high! Also, none of the manuals you yourself have posted suggest that firing into a crowd is a method of riot control.

During the rodney king riots, police did fire into the crowd for riot control. There are numerous other examples including but not limited to vietnam protests etc. Also refer in UK to race riots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Those shootings were for a comparatively very very small crowd of 100-500. When sh*t hits the fan, nobody is spared from it, including the "shining" examples of human rights.

Why even refer to the hurricane Katrina when looting took place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_ ... d_violence

Thousands of National Guard and federal troops were mobilized (the total went from 7,841 in the area the day Katrina hit to a maximum of 46,838 on September 10) and sent to Louisiana along with numbers of local law enforcement agents from across the country who were temporarily deputized by the state. "They have M16s and are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will," Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said. Congressman Bill Jefferson (D-LA) told ABC News: "There was shooting going on. There was sniping going on. Over the first week of September, law and order were gradually restored to the city."[85] Several shootings were between police and New Orleans residents, including a fatal incident at Danziger Bridge.

You have a governor telling that he expects police will shoot and kill.

It is just that because they are wealthy, the riots are lower in number.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 17 Aug 2011 01:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby hnair » 17 Aug 2011 01:52

ASPuar wrote:But I assure you that firing into crowds is not practiced in the West. The political cost would be too high!


That is some serious assurance, saar :)

1) Even with Prez Obama at the top, if a non-police shot rings out during a non-white rally, all bets are off. Things can go either way - full restraint or full clip. Of course, most of the wounded does not die of bleeding, due to good ER services.
2) If you talk off the records, any CA cop will tell you that the LAPD guys just fled the scene and even the Governor got worried because of this downhill ski. It needed CA National Guard attention from Day#1. We are talking about RR level armed paramilitary patrolling the streets by their thousands. The LA riots bought out the best in Korean community and they sort of stabilized their own areas using vigilantes.

(I have no doubt that the London police would have cracked down with gusto, if the rioters were only the Caribs. Media management is far easier then. But the chav factor that crept in after the first round of riots, that confused things and seems to have caused a split in The Establishment. You know, "Though penniless, he is my bro" factor. The scary thing is they used to export these chaps to India and other Third worlds, ever since Robert Clive :evil: Summary: there is nothing wrong with Brit Police, they are as capable as they ever was)

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Rajesh_MR » 17 Aug 2011 08:29

Now we have established because cops in other countries fire into crowd indiscriminately, its OK for our cops also to do that. Good going!

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 17 Aug 2011 08:49

@Virupaksha, Hnair:

These points have already been discussed. Please stop trying to justify this with "Western police shoots people". I am repeatedly saying yes, they do. But they dont shoot into a crowd for mass effect, unlike our "shots fired at legs without checking whose legs they are" policy.

If you had read the thread chain above, I have specifically referenced that indiscriminate firing into a crowd has not been practiced since the Kent State Shootings, which you have kindly reposted here.

In the Rodney King riots police did not shoot into crowds. They shot at individual rioters, for specific reasons.

Again, Kathleen Blanco never expected that anyone will shoot at crowds, only at individual suspects. And that is what happened.

And please read the rest of the thread before wading in with points that have already been discussed.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 17 Aug 2011 09:01

For all the folks gassing on about "Police Manuals", and what they say, please read this, the "Manual of Guidance on the Management, Command and Deployment of Armed Officers", for the UK Police.

http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/MCD_A ... 100709.pdf

NOWHERE does it suggest that lethal munitions should be used on a crowd. Note, all references to firearms are only to "the individual", and the immense care that must be taken to use other options.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 17 Aug 2011 10:26

ASPuar wrote:For all the folks gassing on about "Police Manuals", and what they say, please read this, the "Manual of Guidance on the Management, Command and Deployment of Armed Officers", for the UK Police.

http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/MCD_A ... 100709.pdf

NOWHERE does it suggest that lethal munitions should be used on a crowd. Note, all references to firearms are only to "the individual", and the immense care that must be taken to use other options.


Another lie from you. This is not related to Riot control if you care to read with due attention but does point to use of lethal weapons when dealing with a subject in a crime situation. As you can see for yourself, if at all, protocol is very clear, on use of firearms and it is applicable, mutatis mutandis, to indian situation as well, especially when encounters happen. Also when firearms are to be discharged in a riot situation there are separate explicit guidance provided which does not include discharging in air. You should read Indian Police manuals of various states ( they don't differ much from state to state) to understand when firearms are used and on whose orders. Just angry rants don't make for coherent arguments.

To Rajesh_MR.
I think that is not the question. There are situations when use of firearms is authorised irrespective of country. Nowhere indiscriminate firing is allowed, neither my posts suggest as such. In fact Kerala police manual , which I cited, mentions"Aim should be kept low and directed at the most threatening part of the crowd" clearly indicating where to fire.There may be different guidelines, methods available, training and capabilities, equipments etc which may reduce the situations in which lethal force is used. The officers involved are in any case fully liable to explain the action post incidence. There is no necessity to prejudge their actions and hang them as ASPuar wants.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Sachin » 17 Aug 2011 11:53

chaanakya wrote:The officers involved are in any case fully liable to explain the action post incidence. There is no necessity to prejudge their actions and hang them as ASPuar wants.

Exactly my point! Here we have pretty much decided that the police firing was wrong. All based on media clippings, which can be fully edited or tailored to suit one's own agenda. Also even during the subsequent enquiries, there should be due weightage to the police claim, that they had to take a decision quickly. They do not have the luxury to retreat to a health resort, have chai-biskoot and then decide whether firing is required or not. I dont know about the other countries, but in India for sure police royally lose out on media battles.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 17 Aug 2011 13:50

Far from wanting to "hang" police officers, as Chaanakyaji is claiming, I am not blaming the individual police officers at all! This is their training, and those were the orders given to them. But I do blame the system.

The point is, that we, as a nation, have failed to devise more humane methods of crowd control, whereas other nations clearly have. Especially in a country with a large population, and seasonal disaffections, shouldnt methods of crowd control be far more developed than "shooting at legs with .303 bullets"?

Chaanakyaji, for all your self professed knowledge, do you know what a .303 bullet will do to soft tissue and bone, even if fired "only at legs"? It will leave the recipient permanently crippled. For life. Think about what that means!

And Chaanakyaji, as far as misleading statements are concerned, you seem to be leading the pack, with your fake news articles, and unrelated so called police manuals from other countries.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 17 Aug 2011 14:56

ASPuar wrote:Far from wanting to "hang" police officers, as Chaanakyaji is claiming, I am not blaming the individual police officers at all! This is their training, and those were the orders given to them. But I do blame the system.

The point is, that we, as a nation, have failed to devise more humane methods of crowd control, whereas other nations clearly have. Especially in a country with a large population, and seasonal disaffections, shouldnt methods of crowd control be far more developed than "shooting at legs with .303 bullets"?

Chaanakyaji, for all your self professed knowledge, do you know what a .303 bullet will do to soft tissue and bone, even if fired "only at legs"? It will leave the recipient permanently crippled. For life. Think about what that means!

And Chaanakyaji, as far as misleading statements are concerned, you seem to be leading the pack, with your fake news articles, and unrelated so called police manuals from other countries.


Now , when called out, other police manuals become unrelated. Thank god for small mercies.
Do you know that even plastic bullets claimed to have taken life in J&K situation. Do you really understand the difference between lethal and non lethal use of force? And perhaps it is your figment of imagination that police will "fire at legs", read the "fake" kerala manual and understand what it says. That is if you can.
Now you blame the system then that is what I have pointed out in my first response.
As training, capability and methods improve , there is less need for firing , even in extreme situations.Such a system may not be obtainable in many rural or even urban districts in India.


and
Firing is never generalised, it is always in response to specific situations and as a method of last resort. And I stand by that,Most of the manuals ,incl those of advanced democracies, do provide for firing notwithstanding your belief.

And of course for you LAPD is paramount of virtue. Riots never happened and they never killed rioting people and innocent persons. As if I have not watched video of LAPD beating King to death. And of course it happened before 1970 since you have already claimed that there was no firing in USA after that to control rioting crowd.
And you wanted it to be made
It should be made a heinous offense.
. Let me tell you that if there are no justification for firing the officers involved are liable to various crimes including culpable homicide. Is that good enough for you? Do you know how many policeman face charges both DP and criminal on account of firing incidents in India. I doubt that any policeman worth his salt would fire on civilians except under extreme situations and others doing that would face consequences of the act. Blaming the system is the most easiest part, changing it is what is needed. But certainly they need no lecture from internet warriors like you as I know most of the policemen work under difficult circumstances.
And btw do you really know what a .303 looks like?
As for leading the pack that honor gos to you sirjee.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ManjaM » 17 Aug 2011 15:24

Sachin wrote:
chaanakya wrote:The officers involved are in any case fully liable to explain the action post incidence. There is no necessity to prejudge their actions and hang them as ASPuar wants.

Exactly my point! Here we have pretty much decided that the police firing was wrong. All based on media clippings, which can be fully edited or tailored to suit one's own agenda. Also even during the subsequent enquiries, there should be due weightage to the police claim, that they had to take a decision quickly. .

The question is whether general firing into the crowd is an acceptable method of crowd control. There is no doubt that the original clip i posted is tailored (its from star news or some equivalent, whaddya expect), but what is clear is that there is general firing into the crowd. Also, I am curious to know which police manual asks for cars to be vandalised as a method of crowd control.

They do not have the luxury to retreat to a health resort, have chai-biskoot and then decide whether firing is required or not. I dont know about the other countries, but in India for sure police royally lose out on media battles

umm what?

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 17 Aug 2011 15:49

ManjaM wrote:The question is whether general firing into the crowd is an acceptable method of crowd control. .............

Also, I am curious to know which police manual asks for cars to be vandalised as a method of crowd control.

They do not have the luxury to retreat to a health resort, have chai-biskoot and then decide whether firing is required or not. I dont know about the other countries, but in India for sure police royally lose out on media battles

umm what?

There is never a generalised firing into the crowd and no manual would provide for that. That is the whole point. It is always a method of last resort and Police and others have to do a lot of explaining after the incident. And also contrary to Myth there is no firing of a warning shot or in the air except "adequate" warning while keeping the escape routes for crowd open.

Those who resort to firing without adequate justification are liable for prosecution under IPC. That point is also made know to the officers on the spot.

As I said as new methods become available, training and capabilities and equipments improve, there is less and less reliance on lethal force, though not ruled out if situation warranted. But nothing to pre judge the action as we are not on the spot to deal with it.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 17 Aug 2011 15:58

@Chaanakya:

First, you post lies. Then, you attempt to say that I am lying.

Now, when I am trying to placate you, in the false hope that perhaps you have something worthwhile to add, you prove me wrong.

I asked you if you know whether you know how much damage a .303 causes. You answer by asking me have I ever seen a .303. Is your assertion that .303 causes no damage? Or are you just making this reponse because you have no answer? Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

Anyway, Ill tell you what damage it causes, Having seen many a .303 rifle.

I can tell you that a steel jacketed .303 round can penetrate 4mm of steel plate.

What it does to soft tissue is to dismember it. It shatters bone. Shatters. Not breaks. Breaks into tiny pieces. It leaves the wounded crippled permanently.

Now then, as for your silly assertions on Police Manuals, please stop. You have been utterly unable to show that ANY police force uses generalised firing for crowd control. When I showed you a UK Police manual on firearms use, you claim that it is irrelevant.

I have no idea what youre blathering about LAPD for. LAPD shoots people of course. But its individuals, and NOT AT CROWDS. if a man in a crowd is throwing a brick at police, they will SHOOT HIM. But they will not fire at the crowd en masse, which the INDIAN POLICE MANUALS ALLOW. They recommend firing at legs to achieve crowd control. NO WESTERN DEMOCRACY ALLOWS THIS. You are DELUDING yourself if you imagine that it is permitted.

Now please stop it. Youre making this into a circus.

As for internet warriors, and other such ridiculous taunts, tell me this. Have you served in a police force? Are you a policeman? If not, please stop bleating away like you are personally stopping crowds everyday. If you were, you wouldnt have time for so much useless internet banter.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 17 Aug 2011 23:19

keep ranting as usual. You are making less sense by every post.

And stop derailing your own thread by posting nonsense and ridiculing police action and making it heinous crime. :roll:

You don't even know who I am and what I do for a living and I have no inclination to enlighten you. :twisted:

Ohh , and I see you can't even distinguish between use of lethal force in riot control as a last resort and use of firearms while coming in contact with criminal subjects./individuals thereby misunderstanding the UK manual for use of firearms.

keep up your good work otherwise(just to placate you 8) )

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Bade » 18 Aug 2011 00:17

FWIW, Rodney King is alive and the riots happened in the early 90's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby hnair » 18 Aug 2011 00:56

ASPuar wrote:@Virupaksha, Hnair:

These points have already been discussed. Please stop trying to justify this with "Western police shoots people". I am repeatedly saying yes, they do. But they dont shoot into a crowd for mass effect, unlike our "shots fired at legs without checking whose legs they are" policy.
.....
.....
And please read the rest of the thread before wading in with points that have already been discussed.


:rotfl: I apologize for excersizing my freedom to post within forum rules at will. :D

Sachin, here is what I heard sometime back from the KAP Commandant at Ramavarmapuram and also the gentleman (who went on to lead a central paramilitary force very recently - you know him :D ). Context for the conversation is this: we kids were dragged into visiting a police dept exhibition stall during Thrissur Pooram festival and I saw some Tommy guns with XL magazines from Kerala's past on display. I was commenting in my rather uninformed, hollywood-fed mindset (in my defense: this was during college times :oops: ) about "when did KP go back to repeaters like .303 from these cool weaponry?". Both gents commented on this aspect and it was interesting to say the least.
- They said repeaters were used to suppress riots because you cannot spray into a crowd in panic. Pre-1947 Punnapra-Vayalar Uprising and Tommys' consequences were deeply ingrained into the Dept psyche, from what I understand. SLRs uptake was also slow, not due to funding. But the weaponry of newer threats (read pakis) got a rethink.
- The guys of riot control need to get magistrate or above (for politically charged incidents with "rapid spreading capability", it can be the state cabinet) orders to shoot.
- The shooters are carefully vetted and weeded for psychological stability. Which means no raucous, orgasmic convulsions while unloading a clip into a crowd.
- the shooters prioritize targets that threaten the most (violent and shadowy Tier-II leaders with a history of orchestrating violence, most lethally armed workers etc)
- Most Important: ANY police preparing to shoot are acutely aware they have a MANDATORY inquiry (judicial or departmental) hanging over their shoulders and NO ONE wants to loose their jobs and freedom.

I am still saying, despite all this, all bets are off, when the cops starts firing to quell riots. And that is true anywhere in the world. I absolutely dislike cops that act thuggish against the unarmed and later claim they were "following orders". And I had cooperated with many, who do their job diligently. So if anyone wants to spin my statements into anything that scratches the itch on their perineum, go ahead, knock yourself out 8)

Bade-saar, did you checkup on what happened to the LA Four and their victims (Fidel Lopez had it real bad) ? :( The rise of MS-13 is directly connected to these morons.

BTW, Rodney King riots still holds lessons. I heard from a friend via FB that they had a lingering situation in San Francisco regarding the shooting of late-teen. In this case, the cops shot ONE guy (parolee - which, if I am to believe some, is worse than a death sentence if you are an African-american, as cops gets carte-blanche to unload) one too many times for the comfort of witnesses. And this is SFPD, the nicer gents compared to alleged bad asses of LAPD and NYPD.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Bade » 18 Aug 2011 01:36

yes hnair-saar, We students were cooped up in our dorms watching the events unfold outside our campus perimeter via TV. It was a forgotten past of LA history for me till they aired the NOPD and Katrina related stuff one of the edu channels that is watchable with family yesterday. Some did get it bad there too. BTW, the post-riots accounts in the wiki-link is quite accurate. We had Korean students who were part witness to events. In fact my senior grad student colleague ended up sleeping in the dept and refused to head back to Korea town fearing reprisals months after the riots. He was on the liberal side of arguments and ill treatment meted out to the other community. As he said both sides are at fault, but LAPD got badgered too as a result. To me LAPD reminded of KP and kept within safe limits during my LA tenure.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby Sachin » 18 Aug 2011 15:53

hnair wrote:- The guys of riot control need to get magistrate or above (for politically charged incidents with "rapid spreading capability", it can be the state cabinet) orders to shoot.

If I am not mistaken the police can fire in case the officer feels that his life is threatened (i.e it is a case of self defence, which is applicable for any person). Last year there was large scale rioting in Kasaragod Dt. in Kerala, by the youth of Muslim League. Police had fired, and two folks marched all the way to meet their 72s. At that time no magistrate had ordered the firing. The Supdt. of Police has given his statement to a judicial commission (which was also dissolved two days back). One point he made was that he sensed mortal danger to him and others.
- The shooters are carefully vetted and weeded for psychological stability. Which means no raucous, orgasmic convulsions while unloading a clip into a crowd..

True. But generally media and politicians make it a point to harass the firing party. In the infamous Koothuparamba case, the police men who fired were harassed. If I remember it right, two of them finally resigned from the police and took up some other jobs. The commies at Koothuparamba had the feeling that their dads owned the whole place, and could stop the movement of an elected minister (M.V Raghavan) in that town.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby hnair » 19 Aug 2011 01:11

Bade-saar, so you were in that area, eh? gruelling.
Sachin wrote:True. But generally media and politicians make it a point to harass the firing party. In the infamous Koothuparamba case, the police men who fired were harassed. If I remember it right, two of them finally resigned from the police and took up some other jobs.


As I had witnessed and heard first-hand narration (both from good friends on all sides of the divide), khanland cops can be bigger jerks*. And in private, some of them agree with you. But only after you had a barbeque, gone fishing and shared a bottle of advil (workout candy!! ) etc. In general, TV programs liks COPS, Wildest Chases, History Channel etc give an aura of invincibility and more importantly, infallibility, to them. Eg: in these shows, the narrator always says a car chase will end up only one way. I heard private stories of car (and a hilarious motorbike chase story) chases ending up with indeterminate results too. And another message of these shows is that helicopters are always on air. Usually, a county shares one or two helicopters, as it is considered a horrendously expensive thing to maintain a pair of pilots and even one craft.

But.. if we believe these shows, magically (atleast for the rest of the world), a helicopter is there for ALL chases in US and they always can track the guy with a gazillion candle light search beams, without caring about power lines, fuel situation, inclement weather and the like. :lol:

Vintage khan psyops of the like of "y'all fire into crowd but we are very selective!" Doc Shiv calls it "you farted!" argument and we start using it to color our own opinion. But these shows have a point even in khanland - they scare 99% of the sheeple from giving the cops a headache by giving a Borg like "resistance is futile" message with threats of being sent to vast prison camps. The remaining 1% dont watch tv and thrive rather well in their own world.

The commies at Koothuparamba had the feeling that their dads owned the whole place, and could stop the movement of an elected minister (M.V Raghavan) in that town.


Check nukkad for an anecdote from his many exploits :D

In khanland, a gun shot is treated seriously, but afaik, in KP, a gun shot is treated as DEADLY serious.

Trigger-happy cops begets trigger-happy public. If public is not yet trigger-happy like khan-walas, there must be a reason, n'est pas?


* because they carry bigger mijjjiles in their cruisers from which they can maalish out bigger slugs. Plus their politicians' "insensitive threshold" is higher because they feel they really dont depend on you for money or votes unlike union support. So if you dont have a civil rights body or money bags or MSM (eg: you are photogenic and knows how to perform in front of cameras) behind you, chances are dim for anything fair happening. Of course, "Manuals are always greener on the other side"

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 11 Sep 2011 17:27

And it has happened AGAIN.

3 dead in a police firing on a Dalit agitation.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ng/844941/

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby chaanakya » 11 Sep 2011 20:40

^^
Ramanathapuram Three protesters were killed today at Paramakudi in the district after police fired at stone-pelting dalit agitators following reports that their leader had been detained, the security agency said.

15 policemen, including DIG Sandeep Mittal, were injured in the stone-pelting as the mob set ablaze vehicles.

Violence broke out after news spread that John Pandian had been detained at Tuticorin en route to Paramakudi to pay homage on the death anniversary of dalit leader Imanuel Sekar.

Police used teargas and lathi-charge before firing at the crowd at Paramakudi, 40 km from here.

According to initial reports, 15 vehicles including a police vehicle and buses were set ablaze.

The DIG was injured seriously, officials said.

The violence spread to some adjoining areas and traffic has been blocked in 15 places.

A police officer said they had sought additional reinforcements to quell the violence. Bus services to most parts of Ramanathapuram district have been suspended.

Police sources said Pandian had been detained at Vallanadu in Tuticorin as a precautionary measure.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 11 Sep 2011 23:24

Out of curiosity, how is a non Hindu allowed to be leader of a "Dalit" movement?

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 27 Sep 2011 10:26

What has gone wrong with the police? Delhi police cop turns chain snatcher, robber, and murderer.

Having killed one man for the gold chains around his neck, he shot dead a good samaritan who trying to help cops nab him.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City ... .cms#write

Braveheart who helped nab Delhi's killer cop dies in hospital
Prerna Sodhi, TNN | Sep 27, 2011, 06.59AM IST

NEW DELHI: Around 48 hours after he was shot by a rogue constable of Delhi Police in the neck, Harinder Singh alias Sunny, 24, gave up his battle for survival on Monday night. Critically injured, he died around 8.30pm after all his vital organs failed. He had bled profusely earlier. His mother has gone into a state of shock, her world turned upside down within a few hours.

It all started with a phone call on Saturday evening informing the family that Sunny had been admitted in a critical condition at St Stephen's Hospital. Since then Sunny's family had stationed themselves outside the hospital, waiting and praying for their loved one's recovery. Delhi Police had on Monday announced a reward of Rs 50,000 for him in recognition of his bravery.

A resident of Kishanganj, Sunny had helped the police catch Ajay Kumar Tomar, a head constable who had earlier shot a businessman, Amarjeet Chaddha, and was trying to flee with the loot, near Old Delhi Railway Station on Saturday.

"Sunny was on his way back home with friends when he saw an injured Sikh man, lying on the ground and a cop fleeing from the spot," said Vicky, Sunny's cousin. "As he tried to help the injured man some policemen, chasing Tomar, asked Sunny to help them," Vicky added.

Vicky said that Sunny agreed to help the cops out a sense of responsibility, unaware of the risk he was taking. When the cops, alongwith Sunny, finally caught up with Tomar near Pul Mithai Wala, Tomar shot Sunny in the neck. Why the cops roped him in when they were fully aware that they were chasing an armed criminal and exposing the young man to danger is a question that will haunt Delhi Police.

Sunny had last spoken to his family on Saturday morning before he left for work at the mobile repair shop he runs in Daryaganj. "We never expected to receive such news," Gurjeet Singh, Sunny's brother, had told TOI earlier on Monday.

Meanwhile, Amarjeet Chaddha's family was also trying to come to terms with their loss. "Amarjeet was the pillar of our family, the one who kept us all together. I do not understand why something like this happened to him," said Chaddha's son, Harvinder Singh. He added that his family has decided to reach out to Sunny's family. "We know what it feels like to lose a family member. We will offer them all our help," said Singh.

Meanwhile, Singh is still waiting for his father's belongings. "We still haven't got the gold chain, money and the car that has been taken into custody," said Singh.
[/b]

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 27 Sep 2011 10:27

The same day, a bunch of Uttar Pradesh police constables posted with the RTO beat a truck driver to death for not paying them 500 rupees more as bribe.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 126503.cms


Truck driver beaten to death for refusing to give bribe in UP

PTI | Sep 26, 2011, 03.29PM IST


CHANDAULI (UP): A truck driver was on Monday killed allegedly by Road Transport Office (RTO) staffers after he refused to pay bribe during a vehicle checking drive in Naubatpur locality in Sayyadraza area here, police said.

Anant Lal Gupta (50), a native of Kaushambi district, was allegedly beaten to death at around 5 AM by some members of the RTO staff, Superintendent of Police Shalabh Mathur, said.

According to the victim's son Ashwini (23), who worked as a cleaner with his father, "One of the constables of the RTO Department took the vehicle for weighing at the weighing centre and found that the truck was not overloaded, but demanded Rs 1,000."

His father was willing to pay only Rs 500 after which the RTO constables and one Shiv Kumar of the weighing centre beat him brutally, causing his death, he said.

After the incident, angry locals jammed the National Highway-2 in protest and turned violent, pelting stones at the police when they tried to disperse the crowd, Mathur said.

A police constable was injured in the incident and the police fired in the air and lathicharged to control the situation, he said.

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Re: Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Postby ASPuar » 27 Sep 2011 10:29

A woman who was critically injured during Delhi Police's inhumane lathicharge on Ramdev's protest died today in hospital.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... es/851891/



Victim of police lathicharge, Ramdev supporter Rajbala dies

Sep 26, 2011 at 1110 hrs IST

New Delhi Yoga guru Baba Ramdev’s supporter Rajbala, who was injured in the pre-dawn police action in Ramlila Maidan on June 5, succumbed to her injuries on Monday morning at the GB Pant Hospital in New Delhi.
Doctors attending to the 51-year-old Gurgaon resident at the neurosurgery department ICU of the hospital said, "She passed away at 10.25 am.''

Her condition was very critical from day one and her vital parameters were being maintained with increased pharmacological support, doctors said.

Admitted on June 4 with cervical spinal injuries after the midnight crackdown on Ramdev's supporters, Bala underwent surgery but she remained on ventilator since then and had become a quadriplegic.

Condoling the death of Rajbala, Ramdev said it was an "irreparable loss to the whole organisation and the agitation" against corruption.

"This is an ultimate sacrifice. Her sacrifice will not go in vain and millions of her brothers and sisters will continue to fight for the cause," he said in a statement.

The National Human Rights Commission had on June 6 sought a report from the Union Home Ministry, Delhi government and Delhi Police following allegations of "unconstitutional police action" in which several people, including children, women and senior citizens, were injured.


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