Indian Civil Police & Police Investigations Thread

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Jul 2011 11:54

One the "firing at Chennai" incident.
Boy's death: Army Chief promises stern action
On the allegation that Dilson was killed by a Lt. Colonel, Gen Singh said it was wrong to say that the Army was involved in this. It was a matter of someone raising doubt on an individual. “We have always said that the incident is regrettable and we have sympathy with the aggrieved family,” he said.

I agree with the General here. Army certainly cannot be held responsible for this. But it also gives a feeling that the police have zeroed-in on the person who may have fired the shot (for what ever reason). And it seems to be an Army officer.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Jul 2011 14:25

Possibly, and possibly not. There should be no unnecessary speculation until the report is concluded. Prima facie, there seems to be no malafide reason why an officer would be roaming around and shooting people. Until the facts of the case are made known, it is useless to try and guess.

The report in the Hindu seems a bit nuanced. Please see the following report:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 126256.cms

Army must handover person responsible for Dilshan's death: Jayalalithaa

PTI | Jul 6, 2011, 06.33pm IST

CHENNAI/NEW DELHI: Three days after the death of 13-year-old Dilshan in a shooting incident in Chennai, no breakthrough was in sight on Wednesday even as chief minister J Jayalalithaa pressed the army to handover the person responsible for it to the police.

On his part, Army chief General VK Singh promised strong action against anybody found guilty, but said the force should not be defamed if any individual is suspected.

A Lt Colonel and a jawan were quizzed in Chennai for the third day today by CB-CID, the agency entrusted with the probe.

Dilshan, a resident of the Indira Gandhi Nagar was shot at when he strayed into the Army residential premises in Island Grounds locality on Sunday, triggering protests from the locals.

Terming the attack against the minor as "unpardonable", Jayalalithaa said, "It is quite clear that someone from within the Army enclave shot at the boy.

"Our chief secretary has written to the General Officer Commanding requesting that the person responsible for the unpardonable act be handed over to state police to be dealt with according to the law."

Jayalalithaa was speaking to reporters at the Delhi airport on her arrival for a meeting with the Planning Commission for plan finalisation for the state.

Asked about the shooting incident, the Army Chief said, "Whoever has committed any mistake in the incident- be it an officer or a jawan, strong action will be taken against him."

It is just a simple statement of facts. A LtCol has been questioned, but that does not mean he or she is implicated. It may mean the Colonel lived near the incident, and so an eyewitness account is sought. It may mean the Col is in charge of security for the complex, and is so being queried.

So far, the only eyewitness account is a 6 year old boy, who would not know the difference between an army man, a policeman, a security guard, or just a normal person, wearing some specific clothing.

The police itself has not said ANYTHING at all, on the questioning of any officer or army personnel.

The rest of the noise on the case is merely mob shouting, demanding justice, without any investigation.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jul 2011 14:40

ASPuar wrote:Possibly, and possibly not. There should be no unnecessary speculation until the report is concluded. Prima facie, there seems to be no malafide reason why an officer would be roaming around and shooting people. Until the facts of the case are made known, it is useless to try and guess.

ASPuar ji,

There was a very senior retired Air Force officer who used to do this very thing ( roaming around and shooting people) in Pune.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Jul 2011 14:41

Chetak ji, there are many people who do such things, most of them nothing to do with the military. But at the moment, it is neither proven that the shot (if any) was fired by an army personnel, nor has the police made any indication that such is their suspicion. It may be that it was an army person. But until the investigation is complete, a report filed, charges instituted, a case registered, and prosecuted, and ultimately proven, in a court of LAW, nothing can be said.

Just because Amma thinks it was so, does not make it so. I myself am quite curious to know exactly what happened.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Jul 2011 14:50

Meanwhile, while reading up on the above story, I also came across this one.

This may be a silly question, but if you look at the name of the accused, and the names of the parents, they seem to be of different communities. I dont know much about south Indian names, but arent Loganathan and Chintamani Hindu names? Its probably not relevant to the case, but on doing a little research Loganathan seems to be the Tamil version of LokNath (God of the World, very roughly), and Chinthamani is also a sanskrit name....? Perhaps some dispute over religion or something?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 132185.cms

Chennai policeman held on charges of killing parents
Jul 7, 2011, 05.56am IST

VELLORE: A special sub-inspector attached to a Chennai police station was arrested on Wednesday on charges of murdering his parents 20 months ago. He had claimed that they went missing in Ambur. Police also arrested his uncle.

Police said L George Williams, posted as a special sub-inspector in Kotturpuram, lodged a complaint with the Ambur town police in October 2009, stating that his father Loganathan, 70, a retired head constable, and mother Chinthamani, 65, were missing. Police registered a case and launched a hunt for the missing couple.

He visited Ambur along with another SSI from Ambattur on Tuesday and searched his house only to find two bodies in the septic tank in the house. He alerted the local police.

Forensic experts recovered the skeletal remains and sent them for DNA analysis in Chennai. Police suspected the involvement of Williams in the crime. They detained him and his uncle for inquiries. The duo gave contradictory answers. Police suspect that the SSI might have eliminated his parents following a property row. They are of the opinion that the cop might have engaged a gang to murder his parents.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Jul 2011 15:04

Meanwhile, this:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City ... 130801.cms

Spurned lover stabs woman to death

TNN | Jul 7, 2011, 02.22am IST

SRIKAKULAM: A spurned lover killed a married woman at Kotturu in Srikakulam district on Wednesday. The incident created ripples in the town as it happened very close to the police station. The accused later surrendered to the cops.

Ragolu Tulasi, 36, died while undergoing treatment in the Palakonda area hospital after she was stabbed by Kola Sudhakar, 40, with whom she allegedly had a relationship before her marriage. Sudhakar came on a two-wheeler around 2 pm and attacked her with a sharp knife on her hands before stabbing her thrice in her stomach. A profusely bleeding Tulasi was rushed to the hospital where she succumbed to death three hours later.

Tulasi, mother of two, was attacked while passing through the road in front of the police station at Kotturu. Relatives said Sudhakar nursed grudge against Tulasi for not accepting his proposal to maintain an extra marital affair.

Sudhakar has been pestering the victim to marry him or at least to maintain the illegal relationship with him. When Tulasi refused to continue with the relationship and started avoiding him in the past few months, Sudhakar frustrated. A relative said they had informed the police about the harassment by Sudhakar.

The accused, who is unmarried, is a car driver. He has been taken into custody.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jul 2011 15:05

ASPuar wrote:Chetak ji, there are many people who do such things, most of them nothing to do with the military. But at the moment, it is neither proven that the shot (if any) was fired by an army personnel, nor has the police made any indication that such is their suspicion. It may be that it was an army person. But until the investigation is complete, a report filed, charges instituted, a case registered, and prosecuted, and ultimately proven, in a court of LAW, nothing can be said.

Just because Amma thinks it was so, does not make it so. I myself am quite curious to know exactly what happened.

AS Puar ji,

No reflection on the Army or even Amma.

The law shall take it's majestic course.

Amma is playing to the gallery as she is a new broom and under these circumstances, she has to show concern for the downtrodden and whatnot.

What better way than to take on the Army ( specially in Chennai, given their enduring hostility for the Army following the IPKF operations and said feeling fiercely stoked by an ungrateful DMK and their dubious anti national allies.)

You can bet your last rupee that the mud is being stirred up by some pro LTTE types in the background.

What was the kid doing inside a fenced Army area??

Is anybody asking??

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jul 2011 15:25

ASPuar wrote:Meanwhile, while reading up on the above story, I also came across this one.

This may be a silly question, but if you look at the name of the accused, and the names of the parents, they seem to be of different communities. I dont know much about south Indian names, but arent Loganathan and Chintamani Hindu names? Its probably not relevant to the case, but on doing a little research Loganathan seems to be the Tamil version of LokNath (God of the World, very roughly), and Chinthamani is also a sanskrit name....? Perhaps some dispute over religion or something?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 132185.cms

Chennai policeman held on charges of killing parents
Jul 7, 2011, 05.56am IST

VELLORE: A special sub-inspector attached to a Chennai police station was arrested on Wednesday on charges of murdering his parents 20 months ago. He had claimed that they went missing in Ambur. Police also arrested his uncle.

Police said L George Williams, posted as a special sub-inspector in Kotturpuram, lodged a complaint with the Ambur town police in October 2009, stating that his father Loganathan, 70, a retired head constable, and mother Chinthamani, 65, were missing. Police registered a case and launched a hunt for the missing couple.

He visited Ambur along with another SSI from Ambattur on Tuesday and searched his house only to find two bodies in the septic tank in the house. He alerted the local police.

Forensic experts recovered the skeletal remains and sent them for DNA analysis in Chennai. Police suspected the involvement of Williams in the crime. They detained him and his uncle for inquiries. The duo gave contradictory answers. Police suspect that the SSI might have eliminated his parents following a property row. They are of the opinion that the cop might have engaged a gang to murder his parents.

No religious dispute, saar.

All parties converted onlee.

But apparently failed to read the good book where it says..........

"Thou shall not kill"

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 Jul 2011 19:40

Almost as repulsive as these 'crimes of passion', are the several reported suicides by students, who feel they have to end their lives simply because their marks were not high enough! What a shallow and selfish mentality. In many cases, there is no doubt the parents are to blame in a big way. Which shows the parents to be shallow, cruel and arrogant.

Life is too rich and vast, to throw it all away because one receives 78% instead of 93%. Do something else, take up a skilled , semi-skilled or unskilled trade. Or try again elsewhere.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 08 Jul 2011 01:04

True. I dont understand these student suicides. If they cant deal with disappointment at this stage in their life, when one really is losing nothing, then they have obviously not been given a chance to develop their character sufficiently. Its so sad for the parents! They would never ever want their child gone, no matter if he or she is a failure (in just one exam, for goodness sakes), or anything else.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 08 Jul 2011 01:05

Something tells me the Chennai shooting case might end up in the cold case files... lets wait and watch...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Jul 2011 22:28

Sachin wrote:One the "firing at Chennai" incident.
Boy's death: Army Chief promises stern action
On the allegation that Dilson was killed by a Lt. Colonel, Gen Singh said it was wrong to say that the Army was involved in this. It was a matter of someone raising doubt on an individual. “We have always said that the incident is regrettable and we have sympathy with the aggrieved family,” he said.

I agree with the General here. Army certainly cannot be held responsible for this. But it also gives a feeling that the police have zeroed-in on the person who may have fired the shot (for what ever reason). And it seems to be an Army officer.

sachin , has anyone recovered the bullet or its casing from the site? Whether postmortem report is made public? Is it confirmed that the boy died of gunshot wound?

I have not seen news report on these. Army would do its own investigation and we should wait for the outcome.There is some mischief at play here.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 10 Jul 2011 02:24

I stand corrected.

Chennai police has submitted its investigation report. Kudos to them for an investigation devoid of nonsensical leaks and sensationalism. Kudos also to the Army authorities, for fully cooperating with CP, and ensuring detection of the crime.

If the investigation report is correct, the eventual perp seems to have been a retired individual.

The Army Chief was correct in his assessment that this has little to do with the army as an organisation. As the local military area authorities had said, the army enclave used no sentries who were armed. The court case will not attract as much excitement as the initial report, but I'd be interested to see how it pans out. Prima facie, a case seems to be made out under section 299..... The case investigation is not over, but the CP seem to have found who they consider to be the perp. More details will probably follow.

Im not sure why a retired person would be living in a defence officers enclave (because retired officers must perforce evacuate govt housing), but perhaps he was staying with a relative or something.

Poor kid. When one is young, one doesnt wouldnt at all consider trees in an area to be 'restricted'. After all, theyre there, and noone is using the fruit. It is a sad case... the boy certainly didnt deserve to die. If CP's assessment is right, Im willing to bet the shooter didnt intend to cause harm either, simply scare the kids off, but somehow a terrible tragedy resulted. A terrible lack of judgement, which has taken an innocent life, and brought public opprobrium to the army. Lets see how the case pans out in court.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 165879.cms

Retired Army officer killed Dilson, claim Tamil Nadu police

A Selvaraj, TNN | Jul 9, 2011, 10.55pm IST

CHENNAI:

Seven days after the killing of 13-year-old K Dilshan inside army residential campus, Tamil Nadu Police seem to be on the verge of cracking the murder case, an official indicated on Saturday. A retired army officer of the rank of lieutenant colonel had allegedly opened fire at 13-year-old Dilson who had gone to the Fort Glacis Army Officer's Enclave to pluck almonds last Sunday.

Crime Branch-CID sources told TOI that the retired officer confessed to having shot using his pistol which he later threw into the river Cooum. The suspect, who lives in one of the quarters in the enclave, told the investigators that he opened fire at the teenager in a fit of anger after warning the boys against trespassing several times. The suspect could have been drunk at the time of the incident, sources said.

CB-CID police have fished out the pistol from the Cooum that runs across the officers' enclave. CB-CID police said they matched the pistol with that of the evidence provided by ballistic and forensic experts who studied the shrapnel collected from the spot.

"The postmortem report of Dilson confirmed that he died of a bullet injury in his head. The ballistic report gave us enough indications of the possible gun used. While searching the house of the retired Army officer, the cops recovered some of the bullets dumped inside an ammunition box. The bullets matched with the shrapnel. We interrogated him and finally he confessed," said a senior police officer.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Jul 2011 14:55

Its kind of tragic. Now that report is out, that should end unwarranted speculation about Army's role. In any case they have done well to ascertain the facts.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 10 Jul 2011 17:38

Full investigation details revealed. This should silence the "Army's Fault!" crowd.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 172048.cms

Ex-Army officer killed Chennai teen with personal unlicensed rifle
Mahalingam Ponnusamy, TNN | Jul 10, 2011, 01.18pm IST

CHENNAI: The CB-CID of Tamil Nadu police, confirmed on Sunday, that a retired army officer had killed the 13-year-old Chennai teen K Dilson.

Addressing a press conference, ADGP R Sekar confirmed that Retd Lt Col K Ramaraj, 58, had been arrested in connection with the killing.

Sources in the CB-CID had confirmed to Times of India on Saturday itself that the army officer had confessed to the crime.

Process of scientific elimination and mobile phone location analysis helped unravel the mystery behind the sensational killing of K Dilson in the army enclave last Sunday, said the police.

"A US-made .30 double-barrel rifle, used to shoot the teenager, has been recovered along with the bullets thrown into the Cooum river," ADGP R Sekar told the media on Sunday morning at the CB-CID headquarters.

"It was the personal unlicensed weapon of the accused and he pulled the trigger from his first floor balcony", he said adding, "The retired officer never informed the army about possessing this weapon."

This proved very difficult during investigations as the Army was not aware of it, the police said.

The fact that the officer had a personal weapon came to light through his application for renewal of licence, he added.

The accused, a native of Madurai, was Assistant Engineer (Small Weapons) with the Army and retired from service on April 30. He got an extension of three months to stay in the quarters to vacate his belongings.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Jul 2011 13:51

ASPuar wrote:Full investigation details revealed. This should silence the "Army's Fault!" crowd.

Also looks like the kid is not from a "certain minority community". So the whine of minority harassment also have to stop now. The kid seems to be a typical nuisance making character, as the reports clearly say that the Retd.Lt.Col was pi$$ed of because of the fact that this fellow and his comrades used to sneak in regularly to the compound. But using a lethal weapon was way too bad.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Jul 2011 16:30

Yup, I dont think he was from any minority community (not that this should matter anyway). The case has been made out under section 302, but realistically speaking, a good lawyer will almost certainly have the charge reduced to Section 304.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 12 Jul 2011 14:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 192980.cms

Official on raid run over by sand-smuggling tractor

TIRUCHI: A young revenue inspector was run over by a tractor that was smuggling sand at Thurayur, near Tiruchi, in the early hours of Monday. Revenue inspector P Ramu (30) raided the spot at Veeramochanpatti in Thurayur on a tip-off that sand was being smuggled from Ayyaru river in tractors. He found a sandladen tractor that had no permission to mine sand from the river bed, and ordered the tractor driver to take the vehicle to the tahsildar's office.

Police said the driver took off as instructed but picked up speed and was proceeding ahead of Ramu, who was following on his motorcycle. When Ramu realized that the vehicle was trying to get away, he overtook it and ordered the driver to stop. He reportedly slowed but failed to stop. "An irked Ramu jumped over the vehicle and attempted to remove the key of the tractor when he slipped and fell. One of the tyres partially ran over him," said PL Shanmugathurai, president of the Tamil Nadu Revenue officials Association.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2011 22:08

So it was an accident and not delibrate act by the driver.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 13 Jul 2011 03:21

Yes, thats what it looks like. Nevertheless, nice work by the Revenue officer. I hope he makes a full recovery.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Jul 2011 11:55

Letters to the Editor @ The Hindu. On the case of a Retd. Lt.Col killing a boy who tresspassed into the Army Residential compound. Read at own risk. The letters dont have a very favourable opinion of the Army. Though some of the concerns are valid, especially ganging up against railway authorities etc.
First Set
Second Set

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 13 Jul 2011 12:04

I feel 'sorry' for the retired officer.In my neighbourhood,there is incredible harassment by slum dwellers on a few houses near Slum Clearence Board Flats.The boys come in droves and throw stones on mango trees.those from madras,will know in certain areas,the house owners cannot do much.They have to endure the ordeal.The slum dwellers will not admonish the children,rather they encourage and indulge in it.Sometimes I have wondered what can be done.Police complaints are not useful.Thrashing the child is out of the question.It will invoke retaliation.

But this was a Defence Area.The police would have helped.The Col. himself could have given a thrashing or the jawans done the honours.Why did an officer lose control.A young life has been lost.A career of service has been blotted beyond repair.One hopes atleast now,the lessons have been learnt to 'educate' the slum dwellers.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Jul 2011 17:20

svenkat wrote:The slum dwellers will not admonish the children,rather they encourage and indulge in it.Sometimes I have wondered what can be done.

I do get your point. One; slum dwellers are a vote bank, Army personnel in majority of cases are not. So politicians would not be of much help here. Secondly; I feel slum dwellers are encouraged to remain slum dwellers thanks to the socialist mentality (perpetually rich people doling out cash to perpertually poor people). Others have to treat slum dwellers with kid gloves, where as slum dwellers have rights to retain their rowdy behaviour.

But army folks should have built some good compound walls with fences (even though at the end the Army residential area looks like a prison). Even in the letters (see links above), people have pretty much accepted that the slum dwellers and their kids have the rights to be a nuisance value.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 14 Jul 2011 23:47

Hi Ramana. Youre right, prima facie, he seems to have done his duty, and gone beyond the call. Please delete my insensitive post. I am unable to remove it myself for some reason.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 17 Jul 2011 11:51

New developments in the Susairaj case:

Jerome blames Susairaj for murder, states that her "confession" was exculpatory in nature, and should not have been admitted as evidence. Furthermore infers that Grover may have been dead before he (Jerome) even reached Mumbai.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... er/818580/

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 25 Jul 2011 02:25

Nice work by DP and very quick reaction.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 351628.cms

Cyrus from Con Air - You keep that in mind when you look at her, because if your dick jumps out of your pants you jump out of this plane.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 25 Jul 2011 14:19

Ah Delhi. Like they say in that movie - Dilli dilwalon ki hai - "Delhi is for lovers".

Castrate the buggers, or at least Kartar Singh. Hate to bring this up again and again but fear is the surest key to keep such crime against women down in this country. At least in my opinion, Delhi is such a "mai baap" city that even the society does not seem to unite against this for the fear that the monkeyass they are chasing turns out to be a neta's son/nephew/***turd.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Aug 2011 20:10

Modi govt suspends Sanjiv Bhatt

AHMEDABAD: The Modi government suspended Sanjiv Bhatt, the controversial IPS officer for not reporting to work for nearly 10 months.

The DIG had taken on the government when he first went public on chief minister Narendra Modi's role in the Godhra riots of 2002 in an affidavit filed before the Supreme Court. Bhatt stated in the affidavit that he was present in the meeting on February 27, 2002 at the CM's house after the Godhra train-burning, where he heard Modi telling top officials to allow Hindus to vent their anger. The apex court is yet to take this affidavit on record.

The government action on the officer comes a day before retired DGP K Chakravarthi and former additional chief secretary (home) Ashok Narayan are to depose before the Nanavati-Mehta commission on this controversial meeting at the CM house. These officials along with ex-DGP P C Pande, additional DGP K Nityanandam and former secretary to CM Anil Mukim, who are to depose at a later date, were called after Bhatt was cross-examined by the panel where he made startling revelations about the riots, apart from Modi's role.

Bhatt was booked last week under the IT Act after his former buddy and additional advocate general Tushar Mehta filed a complaint that the IPS officer had hacked his email and shared the password with two television journalists, thus leaking out sensitive emails on the riots and fake encounter cases.

Bhatt had said in an additional affidavit to the SC that he had suspicions that there was a mole in the SIT investigating the riot cases, after he chanced upon emails exchanged between the SIT and Mehta in his former friend and law officer's inbox. He annexed the emails to the affidavit.

Late Monday evening the state home department suspended the officer, a couple of months after he failed to reply to the show-cause notice for his absence from work.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 09 Aug 2011 22:00

Bhatt was anyway suspended. This news article is bogus.

And his brother is in Jail for corruption from long ago. That was allegedly part of his motivation for filing of charges.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Aug 2011 22:44

No Bhatt was not suspended, merely charge-sheeted and DP instituted. Report says he was suspended for not reporting to work for 10 months. If he was suspended that charge would not arise. Anyway, he is in more trouble, as IT offences are mostly non bailable if State Govt so chooses.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Aug 2011 16:04

Oh, ok... some earlier reports were saying he was suspended. I guess he just wasnt attending office.

Basically he has a pretty obvious axe to grind so I dont think he can be taken as being credible at all.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 12 Aug 2011 03:02

[youtube]X78pFqCswdw&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Opposition members today demanded suspension of police officers involved in firing in Maval, near Pune, in which three farmers were killed, as video footage showed some policemen apparently aiming their guns and shooting at unarmed protestors.

PS - video doesnt actually show much apart from the replay of the shooting 1 million times.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Aug 2011 09:36

ManjaM wrote:Opposition members today demanded suspension of police officers involved in firing in Maval, near Pune, in which three farmers were killed, as video footage showed some policemen apparently aiming their guns and shooting at unarmed protestors.

Even a huge crowd of healthy people is pretty threatening (especially if their opponents are less in number). "Unarmed" does not mean "innocent" or not in a position to do damage. In the recent London-istan riots, how many rioters were armed to the teeth?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Aug 2011 10:43

In tackling crowds like this, it appears the police resort to a few options onlee. Talk, of course, initially. If that doesnt happen, teargas/lathi charge. If they think they're overwhelmed, open fire. How easy/difficult is it for them to access proper riot control devices? Water cannons, rubber bullets, designated riot control battalions?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Aug 2011 11:19

Marten wrote:Why would a peaceful protest be considered worthy of firing orders? Are these folks not innocent because this was a crowd?

Who determines that the crowd was threatening or not? Honestly, I did not see the visual clip (which as I understand only shows the police actually firing). Such quick decisions whether the crowd is threatening or not, needs to be taken by the officers who are on the ground. So either we have to wait for more clear visuals in which the crowd was totally peaceful (may be shouting a few slogans, and not at all threatening) or give some benefit of doubts to the police.

Prasad wrote:How easy/difficult is it for them to access proper riot control devices? Water cannons, rubber bullets, designated riot control battalions?

This cannot be generalised. Because crowds can form up in any place, and in a highly populated country like India within minutes. Water cannons etc. are not available at every single police station. A few district HQs may have it, and again every district HQ may not have it. So it needs to be summoned from the nearest available area, and it would take time to reach. Same goes for the riot control battalions. Every state would have Armed police units, but they again may not be available at every District HQs.

If they think they're overwhelmed, open fire.

Yes exactly! Because, if they are overwhelmed and gets killed in the process, it is only they would lose their lives. No human rights groups, no press folks and not the various courts would be really bothered about that. Would they?

This is not a unique problem to India. Police men have to take quick decisions, within a short time with available assessment of the situation and resources at hand. It is only later the other folks (who any would not be affected by the situation) marches in and then starts analysing facts, clearly after the incident has passed.

Rajesh_MR · Post by **Rajesh_MR** » 12 Aug 2011 13:26

We don't know from the video if people were threatening or not but we know for sure the car was not threatening the cops in anyway. Going around destroying properties that they were paid and took oath to protect doesn't reflect well on intentions.
How much ever we justify, there is mentality among cops to "teach a lesson". I would think thats why they fire at retreating people and beat a fallen protester..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 15 Aug 2011 07:00

Rajesh_mr

with these kind of "edited" clips, one doesnt know what happened.
One car was fully burning, who did that?? not shown in the clip
SI running and shooting, what was he aiming at and what were the "protestors" doing previously?? not shown.
The constable who was beating the car, why was he doing it to achieve what?? not shown.

I could count atleast 200 protestors but less than 15 policemen. I will not come to conclusions based on that edited piece

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Aug 2011 09:51

There is a misconception that Police firing should be aimed in the air. Manual says firing should be directed to the crowd which is violent and only as many as needed, and not more(excessive force) rounds should be fired. That is why whenever there is firing there might be serious injuries or deaths. Firing is always on "orders " of a Magistrate who is present on the spot to assess the situation and issue order. mostly verbal to be confirmed in writing later .Before firing orders are given adequate warning is given. All firing incident, whether resulting in death or not, is followed by Magisterial inquiry to establish the facts of circumstances and if police used excessive force.

From whatever clips I have seen , there seems to be adequate justification for the action police took. Not so in Ramlila grounds

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Aug 2011 13:00

As far as I know, no other civilised country's police manual reccommends indiscriminate shooting into a crowd, NO MATTER WHAT! (And generally in such a charged situation it DOES turn into indiscriminate firing)

This is a disgusting hangover from colonial times. There are many other ways of dispersing a crowd without killing anyone.

If the crowd is too threatening, the police should retreat and re-form to challenge them again. Firing into a crowd smacks of colonial mentality, and makes no differntiation between bystander and active participant.

It should be made a heinous offence. It is unforgivable that 70 years after independence, we still have this horrible method of crowd control.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Aug 2011 13:17

Meanwhile, the Gujarat CM has been accusing the center of promoting indiscipline in the States IPS cadre, and causing mutiny in the uniformed service.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ch ... di_1575710

UPA trying to destabilise Gujarat govt: Narendra Modi to PM
Published: Saturday, Aug 13, 2011, 21:24 IST | Updated: Saturday, Aug 13, 2011, 22:12 IST

Place: Ahmedabad | Agency: PTI

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi today shot off a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh complaining against Home Minister P Chidambaram's comment on the issue of IPS officers, alleging the UPA government is trying to destabilise his government.

"Congress-led UPA government is trying to destabilise the democratically elected government of the state of Gujarat," Modi said in the letter written to the Prime Minister.

"Home Minister's (P Chidambaram) comments made yesterday were aimed at promoting indiscipline in the police force of the state," Modi said.

Modi sought the prime minister's intervention in the matter, saying those who are making such comments should be told not to do so.

His letter to the prime minister comes after Chidambaram's remark on Friday that the Centre could intervene on the issue of IPS officers of Gujarat if the affected officers want so.

"Rules do provide for central government to take certain decisions at certain stages but that stage has to be invoked by officer concerned. If officer concerned invokes the rule, certainly we will look into it," the Home Minister said.

The Gujarat government has suspended IPS officers Sanjiv Bhatt and charge sheeted another senior officer Rahul Sharma who spoke against it over the 2002 riots.

"The relationship and power structure between the Centre and the state have been clearly demarcated, which are being violated by such statements. Such blatant remarks by the Home Minister will create deep crisis in the federal fabric of the nation," Modi said in the letter.

"Apart from the Home Minister, many other ministers have also commented on the issues on similar lines," he pointed out.

"Regarding the Home Minister's comment, I would like to draw your attention that the All India Services Rules are very clear about the issue," the Gujarat chief minister said.

"These police officials come in state cadre and their affairs are concerned with the state government. As per the all India service rules, the state government has right to take actions like suspension, departmental inquires and punitive actions against erring officials," Modi asserted.

This right (of taking actions against IPS officers) was given to the state government under the federal structure by the All India Service Rules, he wrote.

Neither the central government nor any other authority can subvert this right of the state government, Modi pointed out.

"The service rules also provide that such officers can approach Central Administrative Tribunal, High Court or Supreme Court," Modi further said.