The 2012 Olympics Thread

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Aug 2012 06:09

Theo: I too have played sports competitively and do endurance events, and appreciate your point of view, but don't necessarily agree.

How do you explain how USSR came into the Olympic fold in 1952 and won ~25 gold to finish second in the medal table behind US and above UK and others ? How did PRC come out of isolation in the early 80s and win 15 golds in their first Olympics in 1984 ? And even afterwards, they typically only showed up at a handful of world events, not being part of the standard club/continental level competition circuit.

If they were able to develop a competitive domestic environment capable of creating athletes who could succeed quite often in the few world level events they participated in then, how did they get to that level domestically ? Remember, they didn't use the first N Olympics to size up the level of competition and develop their own competitive level - they were competitive at world level immediately upon coming back into the fold. How ? If you say it's because of a competitive domestic system, how did that come about ? Chicken and egg... You cannot even attribute it to having a stable domestic system - USSR was going through the effects of WW2 and PRC that of the Cultural Revolution, when they humiliated their first world champion (in table tennis) so much that he committed suicide in prison.

Taking nothing away from Vikas' achievement, 8th place is the 7th loser, to use an American viewpoint just as you did. I just spoke of what it would take to get him over those seven steps up in position. He's so far demonstrated he's a solid finalist at world level, but lacks the extra distance that it takes to medal, unless the others are having a bad day and throw under 65m. The same applies to Poonia.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 14 Aug 2012 07:48

Folks, in the land of the free, the official olympics videos on Youtube are not available.
Is there any other site where these videos are available? I want to watch Sushil's semi final bout.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 14 Aug 2012 08:10

Suraj wrote:The amount of torque applied by Yogeshwar's move is extraordinary, showing just how strong he is. The Nork had braced himself knowing what Yogi was trying to do, but still got flipped over with such ease. By the last roll the Nork looked like he had given up.

Check out his back flip after winning. Mazaa aa gaya!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2012 11:16

both Yogeshwar and Sushil came out later and interacted with fans. my BIL managed to get a few photos with them and the indian flag for his facebook account.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Aug 2012 11:36

Suraj,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I completely disagreed with you. I do not and fully agree that training is vital. What I'm talking about is separating the 8th place finishers from the 1st place finishers. Training can get you to #8, the fire of competition gets you to #1. You can see how Sania or Kumar played their opponent. That only comes from constant competition. In USA it is called game speed. Take a look some time at the number of International competitions USA folks went through in preparation for the Olympics.

It is interesting that you bring up Russia in 1952. I don't know much about the athletes back then but I definitely remember one Victor Chukarin. There was a passage about him in CBSE textbooks IIRC. According to Wiki he was the all round USSR Gymnastic champion for 1949, 1950 & 1951 before sweeping up medals at the 1952 Olympics. BTW Silver went to another Russian, some one he had competed against for years. It is just one example, but that should tell you how much competition he had to go through before getting to the Olympics.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2012 12:17

afaik the belarus coach who doped our relay womens team , apart from doping, did make them work far harder than they ever had done in India. doping may give a crucial 5% edge but to get to a level where you can medal with dope, is a lot of super hard work.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 14 Aug 2012 12:19

by the way, its disgusting to see the pomp with which politicians are announcing cash rewards for medal winners.

Wish they'd ensure the funds for athletes and facilities went where they were meant to go instead.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Aug 2012 12:35

Singha wrote:afaik the belarus coach who doped our relay womens team , apart from doping, did make them work far harder than they ever had done in India. doping may give a crucial 5% edge but to get to a level where you can medal with dope, is a lot of super hard work.

are the girls going to be able to make a comeback? things went very quiet

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2012 13:11

only american and other well supported dopers get a 2nd chance with official backing if they are unable to dismiss the charges as "jealous french trying to target our athletes".

ours fade away quietly.

Caster semenya was also absolved of charges wrt to her gender and won a silver this round.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Aug 2012 14:22

Theo: yes, the USSR and China both used gymnastic as a foundation. But how did they do so in isolation, and specifically, how did they develop their standard to the best in the world behind closed doors ? It flies in the face of general presumption that you need broad competition from other nations to obtain such an edge. Yes, USSR had Viktor Chukarin and Boris Shaklin. But they didn't win all the golds in gymnastics by any means: 9 of their 22 golds came from gymnastics. They had many from other sports like rowing, shooting and wrestling. Ditto for PRC in 1984: shooting, weightlifting, diving, gymnastics, archery, high jump, volleyball. All without any benefit of external competition. If you want to claim the 1982 Asiad as competition, well, they came there and straightaway won 61 golds. We've never won even a quarter of that many in one Asian Games.

How did they accomplish that ? Competition ? *What* competition ? Just 10 years before that they were executing sportsmen or compelling them to kill themselves... I understand that 'exposure' and 'competition' are important. But I put them in quotes because these conditions can be artificially recreated in an isolated environment by pursuing a brutal training program that creates the necessary competitive level from scratch.

Also, I disagree that Vikas would somehow throw 2m longer than he ever has in the heat of competition. It may happen once in a blue moon, like Beamon's jump, or Powell's to break Beamon's record. But such performances are massive, since the incremental effort and training required is substantial. It also presupposes that we're failing just because we couldn't 'josh' ourselves up in that setting.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Aug 2012 14:54

you can either expose atheletes to real competition, or grow them in simulated competition conditions with target setting. also, both the russians and chinese have long traditions of acrobatics/gymnastics and dance - particularly ballet - which forms a cultural underpinning for their sports achievements.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Aug 2012 15:04

And we have a long tradition in wrestling, swordplay, hockey, shooting and more. The difference is they could - in isolation - harness those traditions into performers who won at OG level. To top it all, they produced winners in sports like shooting and weightlifting on first go.

Example: Indian national record in men's high jump is 2.25m, set in 2004. Zhu Jianhua won bronze in the 1984 Olympics with 2.31m . The only other competition he entered before that was the 1982 Asian Games where he won gold with 2.33m.

The only sport in which I saw us perform at a level that puts us in solid medaling range today is obviously wrestling. We're somewhat lacking in speed, agility, and tactics (e.g. clinch) but have strength level near or at that of the best opposition.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 14 Aug 2012 15:43

Lakshmi Mittal spent £8m on the Indian athletes. I really think if facilities improve and encourage more sports in schools - we can grasp the rewards. The GB medal wins - wasn't only due to money (lottery funds did play a major role) - it was also the system that the Labour govt encouraged in schools once they came to power and they are reaping the dividends from that.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Aug 2012 20:58

Semanya could have won if she wanted

look at her run in last 200 meters - I thought she may started late but

looks like she decided the drama was not worth it

in SA - the silver is good enough for now

member_23658 · Post by **member_23658** » 14 Aug 2012 21:14

Vasu wrote:by the way, its disgusting to see the pomp with which politicians are announcing cash rewards for medal winners.

Wish they'd ensure the funds for athletes and facilities went where they were meant to go instead.

In a way its good because it advertises an opportunity to earn relatively big rewards and gives a much needed incentive. A case in point is Kushti. While immensely popular in rural India, the wrestlers had no real incentive to get into the olympic format. Consider this :
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main53.asp ... 712Mud.asp#

In Maharashtra, there is one key difference that affects the outcome, the dangal culture. Even though mud wrestling dangals are organised all over the country, nowhere are the stakes as high, the prize-money as attractive and the following as avid. Villagers in Maharashtra line up and pay from their meagre earnings to see their local heroes. Politicians have also jumped into the fray bringing big bucks. If a wrestler wants, he can compete in a dangal in a different village every day for six months. This has severely tilted the scales towards traditional wrestling in Maharashtra, leaving no room for modernity.

Hopefully this will change with Sushil and Yogeshwar's achievements, and the hype and hooplah created by self serving politicians in announcing awards will have a positive impact in making more wrestlers look to the olympic form of wrestling as a career.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 14 Aug 2012 21:22

http://www.newslaundry.com/2012/08/the- ... c-diaries/

On a lighter note....

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Aug 2012 04:01

Mery Kom plans to compete in Rio. The good news is that she will most likely be able to fight in her own weight class.
Link

The bronze medal has motivated her to carry on till the 2016 Olympics.

"The planning for Rio has already started. The good thing is the weight categories could be increased to six categories there and I can go back to the 48kg class. If that happens, I have a great chance winning a gold."

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Aug 2012 05:06

She will be 33+ Can she do it ?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Aug 2012 05:24

Well she's the 5-time world champion in her class which shows the distance between her and others. Experience also can make up for age up to a point, look at Foreman who regained title at 45 and Hopkins now at 46. Most important is her own confidence--she thinks she can get gold. Her place in the team is probably assured if she wants it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2012 07:36

40 is the new 20. 33 is mere youth.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2012 10:35

Mo Farah and Peter ruff train in oregon under alberto salazar. it seems during salazar's days on the circuit he used to run some 200km+ every week. Mo smilingly did some stomach curls on the track right after the 5k win to prove he still had a lot of fight left.

wiki:
----
In 1982 he won his first and only Boston Marathon after the famous "Duel in the Sun" with Dick Beardsley. Salazar won the race in an exciting sprint finish and collapsed at the end before being taken to an emergency room and given 6 liters of water intravenously because he had not drunk during the race.

.............
Salazar's competitive decline is often attributed to a reported blow-out after the 1982 Boston Marathon (his famous "Duel in the Sun" with Dick Beardsley), after which his athletic performance gradually declined to the point at which he could barely jog. Salazar recounts falling into a "more-is-better" mindset which led him to reason that if 120 miles per week yielded a certain level of success, then 180 miles (290 km) or even 200 miles (320 km) would bring even better results. This intense and grueling regimen of such extremely long distances ultimately led to a breakdown of his immune system, and he found himself frequently sick, injured, and otherwise unable to continue training. The downward spiral of his marathon career culminated in his disappointing fifteenth place at the 1984 Summer Olympics. The story of Salazar's 1982 win at the Boston Marathon and his subsequent competitive decline is told in Duel in the Sun, a book by John Brant.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Aug 2012 10:37

Suraj wrote:And we have a long tradition in wrestling, swordplay, hockey, shooting and more. The difference is they could - in isolation - harness those traditions into performers who won at OG level. To top it all, they produced winners in sports like shooting and weightlifting on first go.

Col. Rathore was mentioning the same on a TV show that in shooting, he wont call us "world beaters" but potential world beaters.We have almost reached there but need the final push and minute attention to finer details which will make us firm world beaters.

amit · Post by **amit** » 15 Aug 2012 14:35

Let us accept the truth

A must read column by Nirmal Shekar in the Hindu.

But if you chose to leave aside all serious analysis as to why Indian track and field athletes, swimmers, gymnasts, hockey players and other Olympic participants fail to live up to our — and sometimes their own — expectations and came around to zeroing in on a rather reductionist, and surely controversial, viewpoint, the answer might be simple.

For, this question raises its ugly head for only about two weeks every four years. The rest of the time — for three full years and eleven and a half months — we are obsessed with, worship and shamelessly pay obeisance to a sport played with any degree of seriousness by eight-and-a-half nations.

Let us, then, accept the truth. We are a one-sport nation. And even a toddler would tell you what that sport is.

So, let us forget the London Games. In a few weeks, the Indian cricket team will be playing in the Twenty20 World Cup in Sri Lanka where the conditions will suit Mahendra Singh Dhoni and his boys to the hilt.

And when the Olympics come around, we are saddened, angry and aghast that we are not able to revel in reflected glory. We are ashamed that countries with one millionth of our population pick up gold medals. These guys have done us in, we say. We believed so much in them and they have let us down.

But the truth is, it is we who let them down. For, we don’t care about them for three years and eleven-and-a-half months. We don’t care about their impecunious circumstances, their heroic struggles, their fight against-the-odds and battles with cynical, self-serving sports administrators heading often corrupt sports bodies.

Instead, we spend sleepless nights over whether Chennai Super Kings would make it to the final of the IPL or whether a mediocre also-ran cricketer really did take recreational drugs at some rave party in Mumbai; or whether Yuvraj Singh is dating the latest Miss India or some other starlet whose only claim to fame is that she was seen with a cricketing superstar on a night out.

My dear readers, let us get real. We have failed the Koms and the Yogeshwars and the rest as much as we seem to believe that many Indian athletes have failed us. They don’t owe us as much as we owe them.

This is sad but true. For example a couple of pages ago there was a YouTube clip from an NDTV feature on Sushil Kumar which showed him responding to a congratulatory phone call from Sachin Tendulkar. Now it was mighty nice of Tendulkar to have phoned Sushil to congratulate him. Shows what gentleman Tendulkar is. But pray tell me how did that became a major news point for NDTV? Heck talk about the man, if you want to show him talking on the phone show him talking with his family or his guru etc. Why bring cricket into it? Did Sushil need Tendulkar's endorsement to be sold as an Indian hero? Again don't get me wrong, my criticism is not against Tendulkar but the mindset behind the NDTV show anchors. Even a silver medal in the Olympics has to be sold with the reflected glory of cricket.

This is not to belittle what the Gavaskars, Kapils and the Tendulkars have achieved. But, tell me this: why is nobody canvassing for a seat in the upper house for Anand, why isn’t anyone talking about a Bharat Ratna for the genius of the 64-square game?

The world chess champion is an Indian — chess, my friend, chess, where the grey matter matters more than in any other game — and that should make us prouder than any other achievement by any Indian sportsman or team.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 15 Aug 2012 14:42

The solution is not to whine but do what people like Gopichand, Prakash Padukone, Geet Sethi, etc are doing. Contribute to making the system better. Indians are probably the biggest backseat whiners in the world.

amit · Post by **amit** » 15 Aug 2012 14:52

That's true, it is these lone efforts which helped us win at least six medals and post our best ever Olympics show. However, don't forget at the end of the day sports is a spectator event. Sportsmen and women don't excel in empty stadiums. Until and unless we have crores of Indians cheering these sportsmen and women, mobbing them for autographs and generally hero worshipping them like they do even new cricketers we're not going have worldclass performers.

How many endorsement contracts do you think Mary Kom or Sushil Kumar would get? Aren't their achievements as spectacular as, say Gautam Gambhir's are? Heck both are world champions and Olympic medalists. (Again it's not my intention to belittle Gambhir, but comparisons are inevitable). The point is corporates are not choosy types. They'd just as happily spend their dollars on Sushil or Mary as any member of the cricket team. But the question is, would these sportsmen get the bang for the buck as even a new test/one day cricketer would get them? The answer unfortunately is NO. And for that we Indians are to blame, we hero worship cricket to such an extent that other sports suffer.

Unfortunate it may be but unless there's money and glamour in a particular sporting discipline, sufficient number of youngsters would not take it up to build a critical mass. Look at running. Just imagine how many hundreds of Jamaican youngsters Bolt has inspired to take up running with his cartoon character antics, glamour status and frequent photos with beautiful girls fawning over him?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Aug 2012 14:58

british media started a hero worship cult around steve redgrave (rowing) and chris hoy (indoor cycling) and now they have many more (pendleton, ennis, wiggins...) and this cult has pulled along the public into what were very obscure elitist sports and created a ground swell of interest in the mango brit. about 2 years back, 4 of the hottest female athletes appeared on talk shows as ambassadors for team gb fully decked out and were celebrated by the public as emerging heroines. this has kept eyeballs on the sport, and where there are eyeballs there is the media and the money. even yesterday's newspaper has a picture of laura trott (cycling) walking down the street looking hot and being celebrated as an actress would be.
our system does this only sporadically, but could be improved on. most importantly we need objectivity in the sports organisations and a separation from babudom and corruption - a much wider problem

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 15 Aug 2012 15:10

amit wrote:That's true, it is these lone efforts which helped us win at least six medals and post our best ever Olympics show. However, don't forget at the end of the day sports is a spectator event. Sportsmen and women don't excel in empty stadiums. Until and unless we have crores of Indians cheering these sportsmen and women, mobbing them for autographs and generally hero worshipping them like they do even new cricketers we're not going have worldclass performers.

How many endorsement contracts do you think Mary Kom or Sushil Kumar would get? Aren't their achievements as spectacular as, say Gautam Gambhir's are? Heck both are world champions and Olympic medalists. (Again it's not my intention to belittle Gambhir, but comparisons are inevitable). The point is corporates are not choosy types. They'd just as happily spend their dollars on Sushil or Mary as any member of the cricket team. But the question is, would these sportsmen get the bang for the buck as even a new test/one day cricketer would get them? The answer unfortunately is NO. And for that we Indians are to blame, we hero worship cricket to such an extent that other sports suffer.

Unfortunate it may be but unless there's money and glamour in a particular sporting discipline, sufficient number of youngsters would not take it up to build a critical mass. Look at running. Just imagine how many hundreds of Jamaican youngsters Bolt has inspired to take up running with his cartoon character antics, glamour status and frequent photos with beautiful girls fawning over him?

The comment was not directed at you but at the columnist. According to TOI the Olympic medalists have a market value of 15-50 lakhs per endorsement. On the other hand Sahara is considering withdrawing sponsorship of some of the federations who didn't deliver. That is sufficient reward and rebuke. Unless you intend to build a Communist state system these things don't happen in a vaccum. There are several factors that need to fall in place to get success. Re: Cricket, this is not unusual even the Americans love their basketball, baseball, ice hockey stars more than any other and the Europeans their footballers. Cricket got a head start because after the failure in hockey since the 1970s that was the only sport where we got success. The ecosystem was build up later wherein cricket is now a good career choice if you are talented. Anand is a multimillionaire and has endorsements. Instead of whining the columnist could have made suggestions and how to force the Govt./federations to act upon them e.g. how to get rid of politicians from sports bodies and if he is directly interested in sports get involved with the intention of improving the system.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Aug 2012 21:45

^^ Time to wrap up and archive this thread ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Aug 2012 21:48

why not have a non-cricket sports dhaga?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 15 Aug 2012 21:58

Calling ourselves a one-sport nation would be flattering if we were actually dominant in it like say, the Chinese in table tennis. We aren't and have never been at the vanguard of technical proficiency, training or endurance levels in cricket, or in terms of brute accomplishment. The same problems of Olympic sports bedevil cricket - we do better because of the level of enthusiasm and participation permits talent to be found. In Olympic sports, without such a large pool to identify potential within, it becomes even more crucial that there be a more scientific means to spot the right talent for appropriate sports early, and to scientifically train them to succeed.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Aug 2012 22:09

Lalmohan wrote:why not have a non-cricket sports dhaga?

We already have the Sports dhaaga which used to have ton loads of info when Stan-saar was around since he used to post tons of nuggets day in and day out.

Wonder what he has to comment on our efforts at the Oly this time around?

Calling ourselves a one-sport nation would be flattering if we were actually dominant in it like say, the Chinese in table tennis. We aren't and have never been at the vanguard of technical proficiency, training or endurance levels in cricket, or in terms of brute accomplishment.

400% correct.

We are actually going to see lots of dark days ahead, esp in test cricket now that the big 4 are almost out and we got a curtain raiser of the things to transpire in Oz and Eng tours since the rest of the wannabes were brutally exposed on non-flat pitches.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Aug 2012 22:10

Lalmohan wrote:why not have a non-cricket sports dhaga?

have one since eternity. the krikit dhaga is a much more recent addition.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 15 Aug 2012 22:38

India is yet to lose a match in Kabaddi

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Aug 2012 22:44

Don't know how true this photograph is, but saw this on facebook about the olympic training camp in Nanning, China.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fb ... =1&theater

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 15 Aug 2012 22:48

Regarding hockey we have several good players that can easily come back and play (despite playing for WSH) for example

Deepak Thakur is only 31 years old
Rajpal Singh is only 32 years old
Haripal singh is only 28 years old
Gagan Ajit Singh singh is 32 years old
Prabhjot Singh is 32 years old.

These guys have played hockey for long and have lots of good experience! They need to be in!!

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 16 Aug 2012 00:29

SBajwa wrote:India is yet to lose a match in Kabaddi

I guess we have lost 1-2 matches at the hands of Pakistan, but they have been mere aberrations.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Aug 2012 02:10

SBajwa wrote:India is yet to lose a match in Kabaddi

Let's not forget gilli danda. We could do wonderfully well here as well.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Aug 2012 05:28

Maran-pitti and Lattoo.

We have a natural affinity for these.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 16 Aug 2012 09:06

I don't get this logic of why the sport we excel in, has to be popular around the world or has to be played by gora, to feel proud of the fact.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Aug 2012 11:04

imo running around for ready-ready and chor-police were the best and cheap sports.
football is the cheapest among sports needing eqpt. in eastern india people use the thick skinned citrus fruit 'pomelo' for a ball on the cheap....its delicious and nutricious flesh is added bonus. its the largest of all citrus fruits.
http://www.bijlmakers.com/fruits/pomelo ... fruits.jpg

in BLR folks passing near devanhalli might see people selling on roadside, and sometimes in food bazar. buy it and try if not already...tear the flesh and mix with mustard oil and cut chillies.