Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

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SaiK
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

none of the developed countries are actually really fertile and has a tropical perfect climate like in India. Indian env and soil is fundamentally agriculture zone. so, one can't forget that. if one considers past mistakes, how the agriculture farming land were reduced to small and fragmented - empowering them into a more enterprise role, and continue to maintain their ownership as fragments but not on process, methods, and regulations. instead of consolidating on the holdings, it is better to consolidate on process, methods, machinery, and zoned farming production, food storage, support and distribution. it can be a zoned agenda (federated) but controlled by central regulatory and control board. this is nothing to do who gets the profits, but how gets to set rules. even cooperative farming fails.. it fails farmers, and most importantly they need huge support for cold storage, distribution vehicles, and transportation systems. think each owner of the land is just playing into a larger networked advanced farming process system.

unless you modernize this way, we can't produce, store, distribute seeds in optimal manner. quality seeds needs to be available to the farmer along with complete process, methods, machines, all available at lease/funded/loaned/owned by way of the systemic corrections. these are not options, but mandatory process and methods improvement. gov also gets to control seed types, quality, process etc. private gets to play big time for storage, distribution, machinery and equipment manufacturing. infrastructure and energy can slowly add up to benefit farming community. regulations are important here. IT must get in to reduce farm corruptions.

farmers have no freaking clue if the manures, chemicals and fertilizers are off quality. QC body, gov testing centers, processes, inspections, are must. unless there is a big control mechanism, it is very difficult to control pests etc. this is one area i have a khujli because i am a fan of organic farming.. whatever pesticides we use, must be tested for human safe consumption. what is point in increasing production, and one pays the toll at health bill? r&d is required more for organic pesticides, and native crops development. why import seeds, when it is not suitable for desh.. this is the number of cause of problem and leveraged by pesticide industries to cheat farmers and people. native plants are resilient and may not need pesticides at all. for example, at my village i am able to grow same drumstick trees with zilch treatments, but if I plant the same moringa seeds in bengaluru, it gets easily infested with pests. more research is required for organic farming methods, and encourage native plants and seeds.

irrigation system is mandatory help.. this is one area to bring mountain to prophet deal [at least it feels like this because of there is no gov support to get water to the drying fields].. what has caused them go dry? dams or what? bring water back to the farmers. it is a huge infrastructure deal. for example most TN farmers will produce bumper crops if water is available in time.

the biggest production problem is lack of mechanization.. they might miss sowing the seeds in time in large scale basis if it is done by human hands. we can time the seeding to growth using machines much better. people can be trained and skilled to operate them. power, soil erosion prevention, are important to maximize indian organic agri farming.

finally marketing.. make sure monsonto et al don't consider organic products, indic products are lower quality than chemical infested quality firang seeds. if proper roads are established, different states can sell more to other states in real quick time before food is spoiled. gov regulated private marketers might play role for villages inability to deal with intl market forces. poor farmers are forced to sell produce at lower rates.. rate control is required.

storage facility, transportation, and investing heavy into these will pay off in a big bang way! finally, modi ji, please don't let the AAP world beat you on this. they will destroy you using farmer problems alone.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by RamaY »

Frederic ji.

My answer in political dhaga.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Frederic »

RamaY wrote:Frederic ji.

My answer in political dhaga.

Thanks RamaY saar.I am getting lots of Gyaan in this dhaaga these days. See for example Pandurangahari's superlative explanations about the intrinsic value of Massa Money in this thread. :!:
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Kakkaji »

Jaitley means business
This is no ‘Big Bang’ Budget. There are no sweeping concessions to industry, no hand-outs for the middle class and there is no largesse for the poor. But in his first full Budget, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has lit a string of fuses, which, when they explode, will resonate in years to come.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Kakkaji »

Arun Jaitley: If we continue like this for 10-15 years, it is possible to drive poverty out
How satisfactory is this Budget given the huge expectations from it?

A government’s tenure is five years, over which the economy has to be shaped. We can make our economy the fastest growing in the world. If we continue like this for 10-15 years, it is possible to drive poverty out of the nation. Second, we had to worry about the poor too, had to allocate money for them, in addition to giving money to the states. We had to pull off a balancing act. Koi bohot aafat nahin aane waali hai ki agar main do saal ki bajaye teen saal me ye yatra poori kar lun. Highways, ports, irrigation schemes, all will be benefited. We have worried about the poor, the middle class and the industry. There is an empty debate in the country whether you are in the favour of the poor or the industrialists. I am in the favour of both. How can I serve the poor unless I earn from the industry? Hence, I don’t see any contradiction in both these going ahead together.

You have not given much relief to the middle class from taxes?

Only three to four per cent of the country’s population pays taxes. In any country’s taxation system, the number of people paying income tax should go up, not reduce. I will not rule out increasing slabs, but I also have to see how much fiscal space does the government have. And after paying the states so much, my fiscal space had reduced drastically. But instead of increasing slabs, I have tried to compel people to save. The savings in this country, which have gone down to 19-20 per cent, have to be pushed back to 35-36 per cent. Second, they should save for their future. Third, their savings will help the country develop. Therefore, if I just give them the freedom to go ahead and spend and make this a consumption society, I thought savings for the development of the country was a much better option.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^WHAT?! Savings rate is down to 20% now?? Used to be in the mid thirties IIRC...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150301/j ... y_6078.jsp
So briefly, the hopes raised by the appointment of a good economic advisor have been belied. His arrival has done nothing to improve the finance minister's fiscal skills; his incompetence persists undiminished. The best the prime minister can do is to make Jaitley foreign minister, and promote Nirmala Sitharaman as finance minister.
wow! ouch... this is linked off niticentral
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Melwyn »

Out of my mind: A house of illusions

Meghnad Desai does a great job of explaining and exposing the LAB opponents.
He says in no uncertain terms that small landholdings will eventually keep the farmers poor into perpetuity.
Also, he clearly states that the people doing all the tamasha and dharnas are the cream of the landed gentry trying hold on to their tax free status at the cost of the nation.
The Budget can take care of itself. What about the nation? We all expected a radical transformation of the country given the promises and the possibilities the election victory of the BJP conjured up. But radical is a two-faced word. It means root and branch change. But what sort of change? Are we going forward to take control of our destiny in the 21st century and aiming to be one of two or three most powerful and prosperous countries? Or are we still battling between a vision of an India which will hark back to the glorious days of Congress Socialism, with low growth, ameliorating but not eradicating poverty, suspecting all private business and creating ever more white elephants of the public sector?
All sorts of illusions have been on display in and out of Parliament. The Land question has paralysed proceedings. The previous government had passed a Land Acquisition Bill which imagined an India of poor starving farmers about to be deprived by rapacious Big Business. Hence land acquisition for any purpose was made expensive, time consuming and virtually impossible.

They knew they were not coming back so this was a scorched earth policy. Of course the BJP supported the Bill. This is because the most powerful illusion in Indian politics is that farmers are poor. They should go on cultivating their land at any cost to them and to the economy. As Rahul Gandhi (remember him?) promised the tribals of Orissa to preserve them in their abject poverty, the UPA land Bill was meant to stop all non-agricultural development which required land. The nation had to stay poor to keep Socialism alive.

Farmers are not poor as a group. There are poor farmers and in the Vidarbha region, there have been farmer suicides which have been investigated. But the majority of farmers i.e. land-owning cultivators are not poor. Just look at the ones in Jantar Mantar with their fancy head dresses.
These are landlords, not kisans. There is no income tax on income from agriculture, the only business to enjoy that privilege. There are poor sharecroppers and landless labourers. But they are not affected by this Bill. They would be better off if a factory was built on the land which affords them a lousy wage at present. They would get round-the-year employment. But the Opposition wants to protect the landed gentry pretending they are poor and hence we have the spectacle of Parliament and Anna Hazare defending the untaxed .
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

Suraj boss perception matters please remember that Namo wave was created based on perception only , AAP has come to power in Delhi overnight just because of perception .

Today fuel prices have gone up by INR 3 throughout the country now we know government has little to do with it however these come at a bad time people will link this to the budget .

That 4.44 lakh IT concession you talk about applies to upper middle class not the lower strata , my father used to be in INR 3-4 lakh strata back in early 2000s and still he never could save enough to invest in a private mutual fund or any of those things under section 80c , I cannot imagine how in 2015 a family with that kind of income will use that concession .

I do not buy the theory that government has not revisited tax slabs because it fears loss of revenue :

1. They have clearly showed by investing in MNREGA that they are not short on funds for even political purposes.
2. They are willing to give 60% of collected revenue to sates , remember when you distribute things on any system you increase probability of leakage and you know it how well our state machineries are equipped when it comes to execution versus the central government machinery , again this is a good move in concept but we all know it is a huge risk.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^Agreed.

The tax slabs should have been revised. Better still, linked to inflation.

Its hard-working law-abiding salaried folks who're filling up tax coffers and not because they want to or see value in it (TDS is responsible).

Every rich crook you can think of you know is hiding income (thanks to no TDS) worth several multiples yours and effing getting away with it. The least Modi sarkar can do is have show trials of some big fish and jail the turds. Hmmpg #feelingGrumpy
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

where in India do movie tickets cost 280? just curious... In ahmedabad and baroda , they cost like 60 to 150... 200 max ...The standalone theatres tend to be a lot cheaper...anyway , i know for a fact that aam Indian aadmi is not a multiplex goer... he still watches non airconditioned cinema for 20-30 INR...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Vayutuvan »

I hav to say Lord Desai is not really lord despair. Will be eating crow soup for tomorrow's breakfast as I was thinking all these days LD is a pucca Brown saheb.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

@ Negi nrega is no longer digging holes and filling them...it has vocational training and rural infra..something that will add value...and has be devolved at state level...

>>Every rich crook you can think of you know is hiding income (thanks to no TDS) worth several multiples yours and effing getting away with it. The least Modi sarkar can do is have show trials of some big fish and jail the turds. Hmmpg #feelingGrumpy

the legal framework has been established...popcorn time methinks...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

jet lee should amend it to make at least 6L as non-taxable income. this is mandatory to get bjp vote bank stay away from the leech brained aaps. they are laying out paper works on a huge attack plan. remember, all aap needs to do is simply hack the price for aams. they will do in a jiffy. eff how it will be made from? get on with the party and spread the aam-ness.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by member_28722 »

Suraj wrote:saurabh.mhapsekar: all your post does is take whatever I posted as the budget summary and say it's all bad. That's not what I asked the critics to do. What would you have liked instead ? You've alrwady asserted you don't like the budget. Simply telling us that you don't like the individual points either does not add anything new .
I have stated a few of the below in my post although not as direct points
1. Restructuring income tax slabs to match price rise
2. All retail transactions of 50k or more to be cashless. Make this mandatory for all retailers
3. Maximum black money is in real estate. Bring in a law for strict and fast action on people indulging in large cash transactions in real estate
4. Regulate/Improve rental transaction laws. We still have ridiculous stuff like paying 11 months rent in advance.
5. Do not increase service tax furthe.. with GST already in for next year this should not have been done
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

SaiK wrote:jet lee should amend it to make at least 6L as non-taxable income. this is mandatory to get bjp vote bank stay away from the leech brained aaps. they are laying out paper works on a huge attack plan. remember, all aap needs to do is simply hack the price for aams. they will do in a jiffy. eff how it will be made from? get on with the party and spread the aam-ness.

he has to leave something for the future budgets...beepuls have a short memory...they ll forget...if he give 6l exemption presently , than by 2019 10 lakh income walas will also demand exemption to restore balance in south asia...the only elections this year are UP and Bihar... where middil class with income of 6 lpa + forms a small minority...so by 2019 5 LPA income will be completely tax free...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by member_28722 »

gakakkad wrote:where in India do movie tickets cost 280? just curious... In ahmedabad and baroda , they cost like 60 to 150... 200 max ...The standalone theatres tend to be a lot cheaper...anyway , i know for a fact that aam Indian aadmi is not a multiplex goer... he still watches non airconditioned cinema for 20-30 INR...
Multiplexes in Mumbai... since your comment was on multiplexes
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Suraj »

negi wrote:Suraj boss perception matters please remember that Namo wave was created based on perception only , AAP has come to power in Delhi overnight just because of perception .
No it's not my contention that perception does not matter. Rather, my contention is that those who argue that perception matters are strictly offering political solutions to a major economic problem, and in effect are unwittingly offering AAP solutions while arguing that AAP will take hold. In other words, you are asking for what AAP offers, but are unwilling to just support them. If the BJP do as you suggest, they'll morph into a political entity indistinguishable from AAP - party that seeks immediate populist answers to perception related problems.

That is just how the politics works. Actually this 'perception matters' approach is why AAP makes hay. Their approach is to announce populist sops and then look for ways to pay for it, or others to hand the responsibility off to. The same is being demanded of the federal budget.

This is he economics thread . Several have answered why the budget is good economics . Several others have countered why it is bad politics, ie 'perception matters!' . That's fine. Just be aware of the difference .
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

people memory may be short lived, but if they are treated like how upa-vasis were treating them, then it makes no sense for them think on nation building agenda.

if income tax can be done away, then so be it! the memory marker will stay for a long time to come. it does not have to be done at 2018-19 time frame. then, aaplets will counter everything on the freebie net. be careful with those a$$es.

capitalizing early, and giving a big bang feeling for middle class is important as the time taken for infra, policies, industries would be a long drawn match.. that is when people will like to lose memory for having faced the hardship. heck ya guyz will step in.. see, AS strategies failed in dilli.

i don't like that capitalistic attitude like how KBwalas do.. well, I have to bump you into next grade level, so, i will have to keep you in this grade you have been selected for. you slog out, and after 4 years you are still in the same grade. bosses get a measure of you to tackle you down, and upgrade their grades. this is very kopitalistic attitude. at the time of new employment, we will fix the bracket. take low, and quit high... but, then you always quit for higher. and that is what dilli did to AS.
Last edited by SaiK on 01 Mar 2015 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

>>2. All retail transactions of 50k or more to be cashless. Make this mandatory for all retailers

you require a PAN number presently... though in future they sure would be cashless...

>>1. Restructuring income tax slabs to match price rise

that would need complex mathematics and statistical models ...will take time..i am not sure it is practical till 100% economy becomes accounted for..

>>3. Maximum black money is in real estate. Bring in a law for strict and fast action on people indulging in large cash transactions in real estate

10 years RI for undeclared assets is a punishing deterrent... I would not risk this...

4. Regulate/Improve rental transaction laws. We still have ridiculous stuff like paying 11 months rent in advance.

>> there is no law that says about paying 11 months in advance... one to two month deposit is demanded in advance by most people...that is a fair thing IMHO... Guys giving a premise on rent need security.. if terms and conditions are not acceptable , people seeking rent have numerous options...I had a hard time giving my property for rent...

affordable housing is a long term goal of Modi government ... land acquisition bill is expected to lower real estate prices..

>>5. Do not increase service tax furthe.. with GST already in for next year this should not have been done

all other indirect tax like central excise will be removed... GST would be 16-20% range.(shared equally between state and centre).. there would be absolutely no other indirect tax...state or centre..no octroi no excise , nothing absolutely...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

People can hold multiple PANs in our broken system remember Priayanka Gandhi having multiple TINs ? Last I checked government has done $hit about it.

No complex math is needed for revisiting tax slabs, you have figures for last year by slabs you only need to see by relieving the lowest strata how much you loose and then make up for that by taxing the higher slabs simple as that but the ruling class don't want to do it because they fall in the higher slab.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

i buy a property for 1C, and register it for 40-50L. I don't mind providing PAN card at all. i am still cashless for the registered transaction. what say dear gov?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

^ You will provide a PAN maybe your wife's or grandmother's and get a discount on home loan, the transaction is cooked by giving a component in cash and rest via a loan or cheque . The builder never shows the apartment is for a crore they will show it for 60-70 lakh . By the way lets say if you do not have a PAN there is no law which will prevent you from taking a loan as long as you have a decent salary and enough bank balance banks are more than eager to lend to crooked businessmen than piddly salaried class.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

SaiK ,if you are caught ,you get 10 years RI...one usually does not get that much for rape...Would you still take the risk? I might pay 50 lakh in cheque and 50 lak in cash undertable for property...and declare it for 50 lakh... there is always a way out...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

negi wrote:^ You will provide a PAN maybe your wife's or grandmother's and get a discount on home loan, the transaction is cooked by giving a component in cash and rest via a loan or cheque . The builder never shows the apartment is for a crore they will show it for 60-70 lakh . By the way lets say if you do not have a PAN there is no law which will prevent you from taking a loan as long as you have a decent salary and enough bank balance banks are more than eager to lend to crooked businessmen than piddly salaried class.

you can provide PAN number of granny and get more interest in FD too...no feasible way of stopping it...mean e while you too can take advantage of it...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

^ All the properties in Delhi belt are dealt like that how many will you put in jail ? The chap who might come for tax audit himself might be living in one such property , things are that bad there . The feeding line flows right from Lutyens when Vadra ji can roam free with 100s of acres why would the others fear such laws ?

Modi during the question hour himself said that let's forget the past and try to prevent corruption going forward this is the bane of all NDA governments they never go after the Gandhis for some reason and talk about the big picture , this will come back and bite them like India shining.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

^^ exactly..every one in the country has black money... but you can put only some in Jail...the 1 crore 2 crore walaas are not the ones we are after...we are after the bigger ones...you need 20 crore to start being called rich... 1 to 20 crore net worth is middle class..rich starts at 20 crore plus....the ones that need to be targeted is the massive chorporate and political crooks...atleast ones above 50 and 100 crore...a guy buying 60 crore flat in mumbai is the one that we are looking for...not the one that buys 1 crore cottage in nagpur...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Gus »

negi wrote:Suraj boss perception matters please remember that Namo wave was created based on perception only ,
then now is probably the best time to not care about perception and push stuff thru..they can worry about perception before next gen.election cycle.
2. They are willing to give 60% of collected revenue to sates , remember when you distribute things on any system you increase probability of leakage and you know it how well our state machineries are equipped when it comes to execution versus the central government machinery , again this is a good move in concept but we all know it is a huge risk.
i think what they are going for is, bjp ruled states taking advantage of this and performing better so they can keep those states.

poorly rules states will still be run poorly, but how is holding money back going to make them change..these idiots then ask for 'special status' and do protests etc.

aspiration is a great thing. perception of gujarat rule was good and the nation in general wanted that for all of india. hopefully bjp ruled states do good with this new system.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by SaiK »

policy changes must plughole that includes to fix all types of criminals, from 5 paisa to 50 crores. energizing the middle class will actually kick start economy, where people will have cash to buy products, and thus industrial process kicks in. but heck, if one imports chippanda produce, and that is where all these tax savings go, then what is the point? what nation are we building? china? pakistan?

this middle class freedom and aap-ness are directly proportional reality factors. none can ignore in a developing country like desh.

we have some hope in gujarat model.. let us see.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Suraj »

negi wrote:People can hold multiple PANs in our broken system remember Priayanka Gandhi having multiple TINs ? Last I checked government has done $hit about it.
Step back a moment and consider this:
* You want cashless transactions to be enforced right away for sums less than Rs.50K
* You want PAN/Aadhaar to be used for this.
* You readily admit based on current available information that the PAN system isn't fully foolproof. Even fake PANs are quite possible.

In effect you're demanding "never mind that the foundation isn't stable! Build the edifice now!"

I find it curious that people criticize the past bad policies, and the present populist entities like AAP, and then demand precisely those kinds of solutions. Effectiveness be damned, just so something so it looks good, is the demand.

Like I said, this is the economics thread. I think many of the recent posts are more suited the politics thread, so I will probably move them there, because what people want in several posts is not good economics, but good populist politics. I find it ironic that the same posters look down upon the UPA or AAP, but demand solutions like what those parties offered in the past, or are offering now.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

^ You are trying to misconstrue what I said and equating it to AAP. I am questioning the intent here not policies , making PAN mandatory without controlling cash is useless , PAN was mandatory 2 years ago nothing new in that. We will see when Vadra foes to jail if he does not we know how serious Jet li is about what he says about black money.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by pankajs »

http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... wth/49102/
Budget provides a road map for long-term growth
- Interview: Ajay Jakhar, Chairman, Bharat Krishak Samaj
The finance minister has recognised that agricultural income is under stress. The Budget was low on specifics like last time so it will take time to read the fine print. First impressions are that it provides a road map for long-term growth dividend rather than short-term visible gains. Gains that will incur will also take time to become visible.

Proposals like providing funding for soil health card scheme and organic farming scheme — Paramparagat Krishi Vikas Yojana coupled with Pradhanmantri Gram Sinchai Yojana — are in line with our suggestions to the finance minister when he called us for pre-Budget consultations.

We hope tax benefits don’t extend to flood irrigation projects though, because that would negate all growth dividend. We must stick to incentivising micro irrigation and I hope that is what the finance minister meant.

We do not want big announcements, we seek small changes which would ensure sustainable development of the sector. The announced creation of the national agricultural market is the need of the hour. It will help farmers get better prices on one side and consumers will not have to pay exorbitantly for fresh produce, provided the fine print is in order and it is actually implemented. Because implementation is to be done by state governments, the finance minister will have to convince the states of the benefits accruing from this.

With the budget announcements, we hope agriculture commodity markets will become more transparent and that will curtail speculation. Certain things only time will tell. Our demand for infusion of funds for refinance of RRB has been met and R45,000 crore for short-term cooperative rural credit refinance fund is also a welcome step.

Another encouraging announcement is that subsidies will not be reduced but leakages will be plugged. The JAM Trinity — Jan Dhan, Aadhaar and Mobile number — will be the game changer to make every paisa help alleviate poverty. Praise for the banking sector was too generous, considering how agriculture credit is dispersed. It being increased to R8.5 lakh crore is good, but the statement lacks transparency in terms of explaining as to who actually benefits from this largesse.

One pre-requisite for equitable prosperity is creating jobs for rural youth off the farm and that problem seems to be addressed by investment in the skill development programme. Combined with Make in India, that is the way forward.

MGNREGA is being retained, hopefully it will be tweaked to create assets. Manufacturing duty on some milk products is wrongly advised. Dairy should have been focused upon too. On the whole, the Budget is progressive and forward looking. Hope it can be implemented in the same spirit. (As told to Sandip Das)
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by negi »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/budg ... 416622.cms

Read the comments there there is not a SINGLE comment which is pro budget that is how bad it is.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by pankajs »

https://medium.com/@c_aashish/reactions ... e36faaf3e9
Reactions to Union Budget 2015: Views from the Media
chetak
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by chetak »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^Agreed.

The tax slabs should have been revised. Better still, linked to inflation.

Its hard-working law-abiding salaried folks who're filling up tax coffers and not because they want to or see value in it (TDS is responsible).

Every rich crook you can think of you know is hiding income (thanks to no TDS) worth several multiples yours and effing getting away with it. The least Modi sarkar can do is have show trials of some big fish and jail the turds. Hmmpg #feelingGrumpy
The enormous power of the US comes not from it's weapon systems or it's armed forces but from it's huge tax base. Everything else follows from this one fundamental fact. The US citizens understand this and their govt rigorously prosecutes tax evaders or tax fraud without fear or favor,(give or take :) ).

They have an efficient tax collection mechanism and and this assured revenue helps them plan well in advance. Of course they also have some bengal and kerala type pockets where they have messed up and many cities have declared bankruptcy. These seem more the exception than the rule.

Also mucho dinero in the hands of the US govt have led to some disastrous misadventures in eyraq and afghanistan. It cuts both ways because it also helps in long term planning of services and infrastructure for the public good.

In some european islamic paradises, the city or state revenues have out stripped their revenue generation streams because the "refugee" islamic pure have simply over run the entire budget in terms of freebies and entitlements.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Picklu »

Suraj, It is neither my contention that perception matters onleee. Ground realities matter as well. Ground realty has not changed. We still have future road-maps onlee and no roads.
20% of dev effort and schedule is gone and the project manager is still talking about POC and framework development without any concrete deliverable visible on the ground! The org should be worried.
Just like the analysis of budget, let's do a different analysis as well. Let's take two nice round figures - 50k pm and 1 lakh pm as CTC and calculate how much is the in hand after payment of tax, PF contribution, health insurance and other savings for tax benefits. Then let's see how much is left for essential and discretionary spends.
While doing so, let's calculate how many such jobs exist in the economy and if those numbers are increasing or not and the answer will be obvious why Indians, staying within India, are feeling the pinch even while being NaMo bhakt. Remember, nobody complains of higher cost if that is balanced with opportunity of moving into higher income bracket.
I am afraid to say that lot of people voted for NaMo due to economic reason and actually supported structural reform hoping for the opportunity of moving into higher income bracket. The let down part is not the increase in cost, it is the absence of opportunity.
Suraj, if you remember I mentioned this a few weeks back that NaMo is actually unlucky that the world is going through a supply glut and there is not much manufacturing success stories available for picking.
Last edited by Picklu on 01 Mar 2015 11:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Suraj »

negi wrote:^ You are trying to misconstrue what I said and equating it to AAP. I am questioning the intent here not policies ,
I'm simply pointing out that what you're asking for is not an economic solution but a political one. This thread does not deal with debating the best politics, but the best economics. The 'perception matters' theme is not economics but politics. AAP is just a party. The theme of 'perception matters' is immediate gratification. I don't question that theres a demand for immediate gratification. The existence of that party is proof of it. It's bad economics to offer it.
negi wrote:making PAN mandatory without controlling cash is useless , PAN was mandatory 2 years ago nothing new in that. We will see when Vadra foes to jail if he does not we know how serious Jet li is about what he says about black money.
PAN may be mandatory, but it's not implemented well yet. Someone as high up as the Gandhi family has multiple dummy PANs. What's the point of implementing PANs for transactions when the simplest way to game the system is to use dummy PANs of fake people.

This goes back to what I stated previously, but which gets repeatedly ignored - to NOT implement something on the back of a broken infrastructure. PAN is not foolproof or universal yet. Until it is, any call to utilize it to catch cashless transactions, will simply shift the problem elsewhere, onto a thriving fake ID/PAN business. Everyone will diligently use PAN, just that a lot of them will be fakes. Then people will come here and angrily complain about THAT problem.

The bane of our system has been badly implemented delivery mechanisms and services. When the government actually tries to fix it, by taking Aadhaar, a creation of the last regime, and diligently set up the framework to apply it, please, don't mock that effort. Don't call PMJDY 'useless'. It's an underlying framework that's a means to an end. All these calls for actions ignore the fact that unless the framework is robust, your demands cannot be implemented effectively. I would much rather have an efficient mechanism implemented upon a proper framework, than a hurried fiat order that is unimplementable because of immature mechanisms, and simply shifts the problem elsewhere rather than solve anything.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Picklu »

Given the current income structure, I would change the tax slabs to at least 8 with 5% being the diff between 2 slabs and they should cover the range of people earning above 3 lakh to people earning upto at least 2 crore.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Suraj »

Picklu wrote:Suraj, It is neither my contention that perception matters onleee. Ground realities matter as well. Ground realty has not changed. We still have future road-maps onlee and no roads.
20% of dev effort and schedule is gone and the project manager is still talking about POC and framework development without any concrete deliverable visible on the ground! The org should be worried.
Just like the analysis of budget, let's do a different analysis as well. Let's take two nice round figures - 50k pm and 1 lakh pm as CTC and calculate how much is the in hand after payment of tax, PF contribution, health insurance and other savings for tax benefits. Then let's see how much is left for essential and discretionary spends.
While doing so, let's calculate how many such jobs exist in the economy and if those numbers are increasing or not and the answer will be obvious why Indians, staying within India, are feeling the pinch even while being NaMo bhakt. Remember, nobody complains of higher cost if that is balanced with opportunity of moving into higher income bracket.
I am afraid to say that lot of people voted for NaMo due to economic reason and actually supported structural reform hoping for the opportunity of moving into higher income bracket. The let down part is not the increase in cost, it is the absence of opportunity.

Suraj, if you remember I mentioned this a few weeks back that NaMo is actually unlucky that the world is going through a supply glut and there is not much manufacturing success stories available for picking.
I've no problem with either the 'perception matters' or the 'ground reality matters' argument. To me they're both exactly the same anyway. Where I disagree on is one simple point: I want this thread to be restricted solely to the best economic solution to the problem, not the best political one.

One might be tempted to bring up the subject of political economy. I can assure you that you'd not be the first to do so here if you are tempted. But this thread will still not permit that. For one, there's a more suitable thread, and for another, this thread retains its popularity and focus by looking at economics.

Let's take your hypothetical case. Whether or not the Namo bhakt is hurt is irrelevant for this thread. Whether you or I are Namo bhakts is also irrelevant to this thread. Put that aside and I ask, what is the best economic solution to fix the current situation ? Given a problem and an asserted solution, is that solution capable of being implemented effectively ?

Take the example of cashless transactions above Rs.X, using PAN cards. Anecdotal evidence shows that the PAN card requirement is neither enforced, nor is it universal, nor even is it unique, with even prominent people holding multiple cards. Now, how exactly do you announce tomorrow that all transactions above Rs.X must be cashless ? Can't be done. If you just want to argue impatiently 'do it all! do it asap!', that's fine, but it's simply well meaning noise right now.

The government is doing things methodically. It has nearly completed rolling out bank accounts to every household. It's tying a unique Aadhaar to each. It wishes to use this to completely eliminate subsidies an completely transition to a cash transfer scheme. Read the Economic Survey and the JAM ('wiping tears from every eye') chapter refers to their detailed data analysis of how the current subsidy system benefits the rich more than the poor, and how a cash transfer system will be better.

They're therefore in the process of implementing that. The full cash transfer mechanism - for both PDS and in place of fuel subsidization - is being rolled out in several districts where the PMJDY accounts are fully and reliably set up. This is how you implement something effectively - set up the foundation and validate it, then roll out the next set of reforms, and progressively expand the coverage. That is good economics and administrative delivery at work.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by panduranghari »

durvasa wrote:
panduranghari wrote: South Africa, Australia, USA and Canada sell minted gold coins because they mine gold and gold is no normally held by the population.
Well I doubt if Switzerland mine gold as India imports gold worth $17bn/year, mostly coins and biscuits, from that chit of a country. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 690907.ece
But that is just another way to get gold into India. Switzerland has the biggest LBMA approved refineries. One of the biggest ones- PAMP even set up a JV with GOI 2 years ago. http://www.mmtcpamp.com/ Most of countries ship gold to Switzerland for refinement and that is subsequently shipped onwards. I believe the imports from Swtizerland are not as large as it is assumed.

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/t ... ports.html

Here are the top 10 imports into India from different countries. As per 2013, Gems and precious metals are the 2nd largest. Perhaps with drop in crude prices, the difference between 1 and 2 must have reduced.
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