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Indian IT Industry

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Gus
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Gus » 02 May 2017 23:28

a few guys in TCS made fun of our man (and you know how sdre gangs can skewer the hi-falutins..) and a few friends back home are not in awe of the nri anymore...and KJo mian is still vindictive against these two groups..every other post is about the IT coolies in India or h1bs in US will get their comeuppance...just you wait :lol:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Marten » 02 May 2017 23:44

KJo, if anything TCS, Wipro, and Infy and their ilk have helped US cos save bazillions through use of more efficient employees and better planned processes. Something to be proud of, even if a few of the hordes are slackers. Am sure the same percentage applies to Massan employees too. Else cult hits like Office Space would never have been made.

Enjoy onlee.

vivek_v
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby vivek_v » 03 May 2017 08:21

A long post, but having worked both in Massa land, Desh , short stints in Panda land and nearby areas, I believe the actual truth is somewhere in between.

One thing which cannot be disputed is that India is cheap for IT like how panda land is close to unbeatable for manufacturing. Doing all the software in Massa is similar to trying to do all the manufacturing there. Sure it would work for high end jobs , similar to high end manufacturing but from my personal experience 60-%-75% of software is generic in nature and it just not be cost effective to do everything in America. Hence irrespective of tariffs and barriers , what could be outsourced will be outsourced. Unfortunate truth , but one that cannot be avoided.

Also Panda land (or its brother Taiwan) has a huge benefit in developing software in Embedded space due to primarily the time it takes to ship something to India, time lost in customs, in-ability to make minor/major changes quickly and retest ..etc. Hence while it may be 2X expensive, it is still better in a time to market perspective to do the embedded development in Panda land or its neighbors (from personal experience).

In traditional software development or the emerging software (Cloud, Machine learning, Deep learning, SOA, Microservices..etc) they lag much behind than us primarily due to the language barrier and lack of ability to quickly read hundreds of articles, google, ieee/acm papers and merge them together into mix. We are still strong and cheap in these areas and from my travels I don't see anyone else in Asia challenging our dominance anytime soon.

Saying that things are not rosy for traditional commandos and generals in our software services field. I was extremely lucky in my current organization to work in all the emerging technologies and quoting from my personal experience,

a. I assumed that machine learning was a fad till i learned the whole thing properly and it was able to solve some extremely complex logic problems for which my puny switch cases and if-else logic never worked.

b. Then I assumed that Deep learning was a bigger fad, till it worked and suddenly reduced 90% of my time in not doing complex feature engineering. It still cannot do everything but when it works, it works really well (or) at-least better than manual.

c. Finally I never liked the SOA/Micro-services/Docker architecture till my backed become more and more complex that I was afraid to even touch the same. Now 95% of my deployments is in Docker/Micro-services.

d. I always liked the Cloud and NoSql databases (primarily Cassandra) so was not wrong there :-).

e. Nowadays, frankly, I don't see the requirement or appeal of leviathan back-ends in J2EE, expensive sharding, semi-manual geolocations replication in SQL databases, heavy manual testing, Systems admins who can only configure some firewalls and routers...etc anymore. Not to mention the kind of automation which can be performed.

My point is that 90% of people in Indian services company would never have had the exposure or opportunity to have worked on these changes and one fine day they would be laid off and it would be too late to orient to any of these.

Hence while I don't see our dominance ending anytime soon it would still be rough ride for generals and commandos (~> 10 years experience) in Indian IT who can do only people management or have only legacy skill sets.

negi
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 03 May 2017 09:11

ML and Deep learning cannot replace humans not at the level being talked about . At this point in time the state of the art in this space is only as good as making a computer play a video game (human movements or responses are most complex things to emulate ) in terms of what human jobs can be supplemented or replaced the scope is only limited to manual labor like data entry , manual sorting or even giving out baked answers to questions and to be brutally honest most of these are partial ML use-cases as a lot of it is still 'rule engine' based application. Fact of the matter is the first jobs to go will not be replaced by ML/AI/DL but simple daal-chawal stuff like manual assembly jobs which even 10 years ago could be done away with using automation but were not because it is economically not viable in many countries outside the G-10 . Initial cost of ML/AI/DL based approaches is going to another big stumbling block but we will come to that when someone shows me a single example of ML solution which can truly replace a skilled human in IT. IBM Watson for all it's hype is again a system which needs immense effort and data for training before it's output can even be used by enterprise systems . Salesforce , MSFT, chacha , Amazon and many (I am sure almost all SW product cos ) are trying to find a story where they can tag ML/AI/DL as these concepts are at maxima of their hype cycle (those in the industry would know about Gartner's hype cycle).

vivek_v
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby vivek_v » 03 May 2017 09:40

negi wrote:ML and Deep learning cannot replace humans not at the level being talked about..........me a single example of ML solution which can truly replace a skilled human in IT.


I never meant to imply that ML or DL is going to replace humans in IT or we will build Skynet/Commander Data.

From my experience of building commercial solutions with this technology, Deep Learning is extremely useful in Signal processing domain where feature engineering is extremely complicated to perform and machine learning is used in multiple other areas where it is possible to perform a good feature engineering and you don't want to use if-else or switch case to give your result. Again the output of the models is not a standalone system but part of a service/app/firmware.

I do agree for DL to work one needs a large amount of labeled data but Machine learning models tend to work fine even with a lesser amount of labeled data.

Anyways, what I meant was that, with the changing technology landscape the old methods of software development is getting outdated and as company, it would be better and cheaper to train some freshers in stuff like ML/Microservices/NoSql databases/Distributed systems rather than retaining and reusing expensive existing resources, especially ones who have not programmed in a long time or work on outdated stuff.

Karthik S
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Karthik S » 03 May 2017 09:52

arshyam wrote:
KJo wrote:Gus ji, if you think INFY can play these games and get away, you are mistaken. In the end Trump's H&D is at stake and if we continue to see TCS/INFY hordes infesting every company, he can say bye bye to his credibility.

Seriously? I know you are biased against desi IT companies, but this really pushing it. What gives you the right to talk like this about Indians on an INDIAN forum? Perhaps you can talk like this on storm front, I am sure they will welcome you with open arms :rotfl:


KJo ji, please understand that many in IT folks are there because lack of opportunities in other areas in India such as Mech, electronics and electrical etc. They just end up because everyone needs an employment. Therefore, in a team, you'll have people with varied skills and abilities and even interest. I know people with 2 years experience better at what they do than a guy from 8 years experience. Many such people just tend to survive in the organization, but owing to Indian culture of seniority first for anything, such people may get first preference for onsite opps. If you had a tough time with a team or set of individuals, it doesn't mean entire employee strength is such. There are so many countries in the world who will work cheaper than Indians, but I don't see all phoren companies setting up shops there or recruiting from those countries. Why?? It's just your bad luck that you encountered such people.

I don't know where you did your undergrad, but Infy, TCS etc hire from good engineering colleges across India. You need to have good academic credentials to be even eligible to attend their interview, such as having distinction and not have a single back log through you academic life.
So please don't use phrases such as "hordes infesting" as if they are some illegal immigrants or insects, they deserve more respect than that.

suryag
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby suryag » 03 May 2017 12:45

KJO ji is that half zombied koolaid drinking high performing indian engineer, na desh ka na videsh ka(wants to be patted by whites to redeem his worth), most of these guys right now claiming that TCS/Infy are incompetent were equally incompetent after their MS' and ended up joining companies where they learnt a lot(of course they put in their effort) and now flaunt their proficiency in SW skills while dissing the TCS/infy fellas while not pulling even a minority of them to the side and bothering to teach them unofficially what is relevant, no wonder we had caste discrimination when certain groups acquired power.

The other case is that of citi'ites making fun of engineers with poor english skills(because of their rural background) and feeling a superiority complex

JayS
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby JayS » 03 May 2017 12:54

Karthik S wrote:I don't know where you did your undergrad, but Infy, TCS etc hire from good engineering colleges across India. You need to have good academic credentials to be even eligible to attend their interview, such as having distinction and not have a single back log through you academic life.
So please don't use phrases such as "hordes infesting" as if they are some illegal immigrants or insects, they deserve more respect than that.


Really..?? May be true for TCS (All Tata companies by default don't like gaps, backlogs). But Infy was known to us to be "Jiska koi nahi uska to Infy he yaro" type company. :lol: :lol: Cognizant was another such company.

In fact in my college during placement, Infy was the only company which allowed two backlogs with lowest of all GPA cut off of 5.5 (out of 10, 4.+ was passing, 6+ was first class and 7.5+ was distinction) and many who had very bad GPA and/or two backlogs and had no hopes for even interviews to any other company, got placed in Infy easily. (Of coarse some good students were there too, but you get the point)

I have heard (unverified) from BITS Pilani folks how Infy takes all who are not placed anywhere else. And they sometimes have MoU with colleges where they take in entire batches (whoever is willing gets job) irrespective of marks/branch etc.

Sure Infy must be hiring some good folks from good colleges for key positions, but at least for us it always had bad reputation for taking all and sundry crowd.

And from what I have heard from some of my batch mates about the training in Mysore centre, it seems, Infy first washes off all the engineering learnt in colleges, and them cram a lot of programming related/unrelated stuff in their mind within 3months. And at the end of that, people are assigned on jobs based on computerised lottery, not on how they performed in the training. Way to go to make sure you have quality HR.

Karthik S
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Karthik S » 03 May 2017 13:16

Yep really. Unlike few other IT companies, Infy will not take you in even if you are experienced candidate but don't meet their academic requirements. Last points about training etc, you are right, people are not chosen for their skills. This leads to varied skill and ability levels within a team.

JayS
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby JayS » 03 May 2017 15:43

Karthik S wrote:Yep really. Unlike few other IT companies, Infy will not take you in even if you are experienced candidate but don't meet their academic requirements. Last points about training etc, you are right, people are not chosen for their skills. This leads to varied skill and ability levels within a team.

Well I have personally seen them taking up people with absolutely laughable academic credentials. So..

But may be those are their academic requirements then... :P

Singha
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 03 May 2017 15:52

imo its not the job of engg colleges to teach the narrow set of tools/pkgs/sw that makes a person "employable" in itvity since most of the entrants are not even in cse/mca to begin with . their job is to teach the core courses, maths, technology, labs ... and people who are interested only in shifting to itvity can definitely spend their own time reading up and doing stuff to become "employable".
these days all hostels have internet and everyone a laptop and FOSS is king, so learning has no barriers like restricted college lab times we had in our era. we had to finish dinner early and fast to spend some hangtime upto 9pm making things work. it was onlt in iit that i saw this mythical beast called 24x7 CC though no internet in hostels. cycle 2km in bitter cold or heat to CC. late nights were for watching prawn over the 64kbps ernet link :D yes 2x64kbps for whole campus...backed up by a 9kbps dialup link :roll:

itvity plantation owners would like nothing more than others bear their training burden.

it is only because india has not created much jobs in other branches of engg in the last 15 years that we see this huge skew in where the output goes. to an extent thats even true now in amrika but their core engg sectors , govt labs, academia are much bigger so "some" people atleast can crawl away and do what they trained to do.

engineers who can barely design a proper experiment and are lacking in fundamentals of their own branch does not a superpawa make. and actually bereft of such core skills they will find it hard anywhere they migrate to - itvity, finance, marketing etc.

maybe its just the sheer number of output dragging the average levels down.

Singha
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 03 May 2017 16:02

in my era 95 passout, INFY was one of elite cos. they went only to good places like Nit and few select pvt colleges and hired small numbers after strong interviews. the gross was around 8400/pm while wipro systems was 7200/-(my first offer) . wipro infotech did "systems/embedded" work was perhaps even more selective and payed like infy.
texas instruments one of few mncs then paid some 14000/ctc one our btech seniors got in from outside as they recruited directly only from iits and our jaws were on the floor at the salary and glamour.
hughes sw systems (my eventual job after mtech) was 11000/- gross in 97 + bus + free grub. oracle was paying a bit more.
highest payer in the land was Cadence EDA in noida probably around 15-18k at the time.
even getting into services cos like Ramco was not easy - they had a extempore speech round and GD and only the most smart and client-facing boys in my class got in. Siemens infotech from blr had a hardass german manager who came personally to campus to hand pick less than 5 of the best. their entire upper mgmt was german at that stage.
HLL interview a coveted one for Mech and Chem stretched round after round for the whole day
NOCIL was even harder - they recruited only from iits.

I think up until around 2000, neither the industry hired much and output was also less and hence avg quality much better. both needs and output exploded for a while after that and we are where we are now...

i remember when i sent back a xerox of my wipro system offer letter with the salary to home, my father and mother were really overjoyed at beta getting a campus job. i followed that up immediately with new letters asking them to find me a wife :twisted:

there are still plenty of good people but sifting takes longer as pond is huge and they dont come cheap and are not that loyal anymore. so not enough to go around really. add to that the MS craze from 2000-2016 took out huge nos of good enough people into massa.

we lost 3 generations to massa one by one. of the 55 batchmates in 1995, I can safely say <25 are working in india. of the 20 or so mtech batchmates (some were common to my btech), maybe 5 are working in india.

how long can a country continue to bleed like this and still function? its only due to our huge talent pool we have survived. russia would have collapsed and I suspect deep sections of its STEM/MIC have suffered from US/israeli outgo. europe's top grads and academics all decamp for massa if they can too.

from a RI pov, more talent staying home is better for country's future, so I will stick with that.

Marten
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Marten » 03 May 2017 16:21

Funny thing is that a lot of global IT business is in Indian hands. I don't mean delivery, but strategy and deployment. Point being the waves of outward migration are not bad. Indic genes controlling the narrative eventually will help India the most.

Sachin
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sachin » 03 May 2017 16:22

Karthik S wrote:I don't know where you did your undergrad, but Infy, TCS etc hire from good engineering colleges across India. You need to have good academic credentials to be even eligible to attend their interview, such as having distinction and not have a single back log through you academic life.

JayS wrote:Sure Infy must be hiring some good folks from good colleges for key positions, but at least for us it always had bad reputation for taking all and sundry crowd.

Singha wrote:I think up until around 2000, neither the industry hired much and output was also less and hence avg quality much better. both needs and output exploded for a while after that and we are where we are now...

Karthik, JayS - may be you are talking of different time periods in which Infy hired people. In 1997 when I landed up here, all most all IT-Vity Majors (they were JCOs then) would bang their doors on my face. Why? I was not having a B.Tech degree. It was as simple as that. B.Tech degree holders then had to go through a battery of tests, and I guess Infy had much more "analytical type" problems to solve. Sakunthala Devi and her puzzles were the bed time books for Infy wannabes. Me with just "10th pass & Kushti" stood no chance in any of the big companies then. I got my first two breaks in non-Indian companies, the first one actually interviewed me on the computer knowlegde I gained during my school days (at a local institute) and the second one evaluated me on my job in the first company.

The dilution of the recruitment process naturally started when more big projects came into these companies. Especially the maintenance & support type of project. At Veg. Oil.Co right during the 2007-2008 time frame, I could sense that the company was now focusing more on "service and support" other than doing any path breaking IT work. During this time period, they also started scouting for talent in many small cities. And recruitment was like parking a truck at the front gate, and just putting in any B.Tech CS or ECE chap walking by.

Veg.Oil.Co had a long running apprentice program as a tie-up with BITS, which also went quite well till around 2010 (starting some where in 1999). The initial talent who came through this way were also really good. But over the course of years, this program was also diluted (with work getting more importance than the MS study part).

pandyan
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby pandyan » 03 May 2017 16:43

Few years back a small shop (a small town) owner selling decorative products thought software was fake. His business model was to depend on footfall to his store and have couple of 'runners' (whats the right word for it?) to go somewhere outside to fetch samples based on customer preferences. He thought IT/software were fake. At that point i did show him amazon ebay etc and gave him an example of how he can sell things all over india or world from his small store. Dont know if it convinced him completely.

Singha
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Singha » 03 May 2017 17:18

even motorola india had some tieup with cmu or bits i forgot which to get a ms degree.
boy that was another hard ass interviewing company. i passed their written test but could not pass interview.
another one was novell. I could not clear the novell pre-interview test - all our class toppers of mtech got there.
both of these recruited just about 4 each from iitk and allowed onlee ece and cse ppl to apply..a pool of not more than 120 across both btech and mtech. :oops:
our novell senior he truly was a outlaw elite and foss guru. after a long stint in netz now a director in arista bluru.

KJo
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 03 May 2017 17:57

Prasad wrote:
KJo wrote:
Wait and watch. The days of rampant corruption and cheating by TCS/INFY type of companies are over.
Other than false bravado along the lines of "amreeka needs us! they will collapse without us!", I see a lot of :(( behind the scenes.

This is utter nonsense. Not to mention insignificant in comparison to what american companies have done and are doing in India. Enron anyone?


What is nonsense? Are you denying that TCS/INFY played games?
Whether Enron played games is irrelevant, we all agree and the right people are in jail or dead.
When is most revered Murthy Saar going behind bars? It's ironic that he is spouting gyaan these days about hiring abroad.

KJo
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 03 May 2017 17:58

arshyam wrote:
KJo wrote:Gus ji, if you think INFY can play these games and get away, you are mistaken. In the end Trump's H&D is at stake and if we continue to see TCS/INFY hordes infesting every company, he can say bye bye to his credibility.

Seriously? I know you are biased against desi IT companies, but this really pushing it. What gives you the right to talk like this about Indians on an INDIAN forum? Perhaps you can talk like this on storm front, I am sure they will welcome you with open arms :rotfl:


We talk about Khangress and Commies the same way and you are :mrgreen: about it, aren't you? They are Indian too.

What is "storm front"?

KJo
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 03 May 2017 18:02

Gus wrote:a few guys in TCS made fun of our man (and you know how sdre gangs can skewer the hi-falutins..) and a few friends back home are not in awe of the nri anymore...and KJo mian is still vindictive against these two groups..every other post is about the IT coolies in India or h1bs in US will get their comeuppance...just you wait :lol:


Na, no one made fun of me. In fact I was a cheerleader and have written on forums and fought with goras defending INFY/TCS. It's only when I had personal experiences that I realized wtf I was defending. 2am install and the clown "admin" tells me he's never seen WebSphere console before and I have to tell him where to click. :rotfl: The sheer absurdity boggles the mind.

Gus ji is obviously not able to recognize that I have nothing against Pichai, Nadella, Raja Bose ( 8) ) and others who come here, work their way up and display high competence and quality in what they do. Many many Indians do the same.
It's these people who are picked up from the streets and posted as "techies" that I am against.

prahaar
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby prahaar » 03 May 2017 18:06

In my experience, lethargy and inertia exists in top notch global giants, medium sized companies as well as tiny startups. The difference is only in scale. Manual email forwarding babus talking high-falutin stuff coupled with paper creds exist everywhere. Poor quality developers exist in most companies. Singling out Infy or for that matter any Desi H1b bodyshopper is being selective.

I do not buy the argument that Indian cyber coolies are especially worse than others. It is a generalization.

JayS
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby JayS » 03 May 2017 18:54

Sachin wrote:
Karthik S wrote:I don't know where you did your undergrad, but Infy, TCS etc hire from good engineering colleges across India. You need to have good academic credentials to be even eligible to attend their interview, such as having distinction and not have a single back log through you academic life.

JayS wrote:Sure Infy must be hiring some good folks from good colleges for key positions, but at least for us it always had bad reputation for taking all and sundry crowd.

Singha wrote:I think up until around 2000, neither the industry hired much and output was also less and hence avg quality much better. both needs and output exploded for a while after that and we are where we are now...

Karthik, JayS - may be you are talking of different time periods in which Infy hired people. In 1997 when I landed up here, all most all IT-Vity Majors (they were JCOs then) would bang their doors on my face. Why? I was not having a B.Tech degree. It was as simple as that. B.Tech degree holders then had to go through a battery of tests, and I guess Infy had much more "analytical type" problems to solve. Sakunthala Devi and her puzzles were the bed time books for Infy wannabes. Me with just "10th pass & Kushti" stood no chance in any of the big companies then. I got my first two breaks in non-Indian companies, the first one actually interviewed me on the computer knowlegde I gained during my school days (at a local institute) and the second one evaluated me on my job in the first company.

The dilution of the recruitment process naturally started when more big projects came into these companies. Especially the maintenance & support type of project. At Veg. Oil.Co right during the 2007-2008 time frame, I could sense that the company was now focusing more on "service and support" other than doing any path breaking IT work. During this time period, they also started scouting for talent in many small cities. And recruitment was like parking a truck at the front gate, and just putting in any B.Tech CS or ECE chap walking by.

Veg.Oil.Co had a long running apprentice program as a tie-up with BITS, which also went quite well till around 2010 (starting some where in 1999). The initial talent who came through this way were also really good. But over the course of years, this program was also diluted (with work getting more importance than the MS study part).


You are right of coarse.

Gus
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Gus » 03 May 2017 18:59

KJo wrote:Na, no one made fun of me. In fact I was a cheerleader and have written on forums and fought with goras defending INFY/TCS. It's only when I had personal experiences that I realized wtf I was defending. 2am install and the clown "admin" tells me he's never seen WebSphere console before and I have to tell him where to click. :rotfl: The sheer absurdity boggles the mind.

Gus ji is obviously not able to recognize that I have nothing against Pichai, Nadella, Raja Bose ( 8) ) and others who come here, work their way up and display high competence and quality in what they do. Many many Indians do the same.
It's these people who are picked up from the streets and posted as "techies" that I am against.


yes..your anecdotal experiences are what defines the entire Indian IT ecosystem.

arshyam
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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby arshyam » 03 May 2017 19:53

KJo wrote:
arshyam wrote:Seriously? I know you are biased against desi IT companies, but this really pushing it. What gives you the right to talk like this about Indians on an INDIAN forum? Perhaps you can talk like this on storm front, I am sure they will welcome you with open arms :rotfl:


We talk about Khangress and Commies the same way and you are :mrgreen: about it, aren't you? They are Indian too.
Not so fast. Congress and commies are doing their shit in India by breaking the law and looting Indians. Whoever TCS/Infy bring to the US come by following amreeki law, which was purportedly written by the US govt for its the benefit of its own economy. They are not stealthily crossing the Rio Grande at night. So the so-called "infestation" you blithely talk about is enabled by the US govt itself, so take your frustration on them (I understand they are your own govt.). On top of this, these companies send people on site to fulfill contracts with amriki companies - if these companies have no oversight on who they hire, that's their problem and only theirs. It's a free market and they will get a few bad apples mixed in. If they are not happy with the quality of work, they are free to hire someone else or look inwards - I understand you worked at one such company. Couldn't the existing staff handle the load so had to bring in big bad TCS or whoever? :lol:

In any case, you getting up at 2AM once to help some incompetent dude and whining about it and other sundry things at every opportunity only reflects upon you. But don't expect people to keep quiet when the bile starts to pile up.

KJo wrote:What is "storm front"?

Perhaps worth a dekko, I am sure you'll find a lot of like-minded souls.

EDITED for typos.
Last edited by arshyam on 03 May 2017 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby CalvinH » 03 May 2017 21:01

I joined Infosys in 2003. They were gold standard then in IT services though their shine was slowly getting eroded by entry of software MNCs such as Oracle etc who are now recruiting for software development and maintenance. Infosys by that time was not able to hire CS/ECE from IITs but was still able to manage graduates from other non computer streams such as chemical and mining from IITs and other affiliated colleges (JEE) such as ISM. Many from NITs. Very generous company and league apart from other IT services companies such as TCS. Paid each software engineer USD $1000 as cash and spot bonus when they become $1 Billion company in mid 2004. Till late 2003 everyone was provided ESOPs with SE receiving 100 ESOPs.

It all fell apart after 2005 when the market really burst with demand. Infosys abondended the analytical test for 2+ years experience. I have many relatives that are doing very well in Technology now but couldnt clear Infosys test between 2002-2004.

Pre 2000 Infosys was able to attract management folks from IIMs notably IIMA. Many rose to head the BUs including infamous ones like Phaneesh Murthy. The established many terms in IT services that are common now in industry and used in every sales ppt, such as Global delivery Model (GDM).

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby negi » 07 May 2017 12:48

For companies/individuals to be corrupt there needs to be a motive ; likes of Infy , Wipro , CTS and others need not indulge in corruption in India simply because their revenue source is not based out of India (I am talking about major accounts and BUs) .Coming to companies flouting laws every corporate company ethically is not clean however legally they could be within limits by taking advantage of loop holes in the manner in which laws are drafted/interpreted the Visa issues are classic example of the same 'skilled individual' is not a very well defined term so yes these companies might be flouting these laws but then desis in US in ITVTY are the last one's who have any moral right to cry hoarse because they too flew to Massa on the very H1B which they claim today is being misused, now question is who the fck gets to decide if the chaps already in the US are more skilled than those who are going there now ? :)

All ITVTY companies in India are corrupt in the sense that they have to pay bribes for initial setup, they pay bribes for water connection , they pay bribes for tax benefits , however since their end produce is mostly sold outside they need not pay bribes for customer acquisition or retention in India . I mean if one would look at kind of bribes Jio must be paying for whatever it is doing to expand in India I would think the bribe amount would exceed what all ITVTY cos might be paying for sustaining operations here. :)

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby pandyan » 07 May 2017 18:14

in the west it is called premium support or lobbying :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 07 May 2017 21:47

It's pretty simple to see what happened. Demand Supply economics onlee.
Back in the mid 90s when I graduated, INFY was the top company that graduates wanted to join. I had Amreeka plans but many classmates did those puzzles and tests and there were sample questions floating around. Some got in, some didn't. That made them try harder next time. Demand (projects) was low in the mid 90s so they maintained a high standard and came to top schools and picked out the best students after a lot of interviews, GD and all that.

Then came Y2K in 1999.

Companies in the US feared their systems would collapse and needed people and fast! They looked to Indian service companies who sent their best people. But they needed more, so they reduced those standards and hired more and sent them to the US. I began to see more of my BE classmates end up here, who were "middle tier" in school. So now INFY hired not just the top tier but middle tier also.

Demand exploded! More people needed. US companies realized they could cut costs by hiring TCS/INFY. CEOs realized these lower costs meant higher profits so higher stock prices and more bonuses for themselves. Win win onlee.

INFY and TCS needed as many people as they could get. Puzzles, quizzes, GD gaya bhaad mein. There was $$$ to be made man! So INFY began to wait outside even the worse colleges in India and offer jobs to kids walking out of campus for "by2 Chaai" (kidding). Anyone will do, you just needed to breathe and have a pulse and they would ship you to the US and could earn dollars. Again win win onlee.

So what happened here? When projects were less, then only the best were selected. When work increased exponentially, then they hired anyone and everyone. This includes the worst students along with the best.

Now the business cycle has changed. People are tired of these lies of "we don't have enough talent in the US" when a deliberate effort has been made to kill the talent pool here over 15 years. So outsourcing in large numbers gets a bad name. Trump uses this issue to get elected. Now he must do something, so he makes it harder to outsource.

So what do Indian companies do? They begin to find ways to cut employees. Reverse cycle onlee.
The first to go are the "managers" who don't bring in revenue but just delegate. and take high salaries. But that is not enough. More and more employees are being cut especially those whose marginal revenue don't justify their salaries. Many got huge raises, bonuses during the go-go years and those need to be scaled down to realistic levels. What will happen is these laid off employees will go back into the market and have to settle for a more realistic salary.

So no need for taqleef and H&D defence when I point this out. It is a natural part of business, we all went through it in our careers. Indian IT is experiencing this for the first time. Imagine this to be a Samudra Manthan (churning of the ocean) which is very much needed to rid the industry of the toxins and bring forth the nectar of Indian IT which has a lot of smart people doing smart things.

I feel sad when Modi has to call the Australian PM and beg for work visas. WTF man? Don't we have any pride? Why are we begging the white man to throw us some crumbs? Foreign leaders have NO RESPONSIBILITY to care about Indian IT workers. Many Indians seem to forget this. Trump does not and should not care about non-American citizens. He should do what is good for the US. The sooner we realize this the better. Pakis are even worse off than us on this.

Narendra Modi raises 457 work visa row in telephonic conversation with Australian PM Malcolm Turnbull
http://www.india.com/news/india/narendr ... l-2091287/

How will we feel if President of Islamic Republic of Timbucktooistan calls up Modi and demands him not to abrogate Art 370?
Last edited by KJo on 07 May 2017 22:05, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 07 May 2017 21:50

"Delivery Manager" seems to be a title that I see only in Indian IT. Never heard about it here in the US. Is it like Technical Account Manager? One of my friend's brother's was that in INFY and is now a CEO of the Indian unit of a European MNC. Smart guy, would be smart anywhere.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Sridhar K » 07 May 2017 22:15

Kjo
Delivery manager refers to the guy who manages the delivery of services to the client. It started with the delivery of turnkey projects but slowly morphed into providing IT services of ADM, production mgmt services, assurance or testing services over a 3 or 5 year contract. However most of these contracts did not become managed services but T and M aka mass body or group body shops. e.g.Though the contract would say services of ADM etc, it will end upproviding 10 java resumes, 5 test automation resources etc.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Marten » 07 May 2017 22:46

KJo, simple facts of life and economics will apply to every economy. All those plum SV jobs will also eventually move out when the balance tilts. As for NaMo calling TBull to beg etc, that is your perception. OZ has clearly said the targets were lower end colleges and cos that were exploiting or being exploited. There are many IT firms still trying to get hold of qualified Indians because of the stability aspect.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby KJo » 07 May 2017 23:19

Marten wrote:KJo, simple facts of life and economics will apply to every economy. All those plum SV jobs will also eventually move out when the balance tilts. As for NaMo calling TBull to beg etc, that is your perception. OZ has clearly said the targets were lower end colleges and cos that were exploiting or being exploited. There are many IT firms still trying to get hold of qualified Indians because of the stability aspect.


yes, that was what I was saying. Why the anger on the US or Trump then? No job lasts forever and we need to keep re-inventing ourselves. The problem I see for Indian IT is that there are too many people in it and the market cannot/will not sustain it. Where will these people go? These people are not at fault as far as their performance go (or maybe they are) but will still be let go because of market conditions.

It will be Modi's headache to manage because people will blame him.

Modi calling TBull, well, we should be in a situation where people invite us, not us needing to ask/beg/demand to be there. If they curtailed their visa laws, it is because they don't see a need. When they do, they will call us. Modi calling TBull or Trump makes us look bad.

Sridhar K, thanks for the explanation.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Santosh » 08 May 2017 03:47

Four months ago I joined a startup in the identity management space. There is a ton of competition but biometrics based identity management is our differentiator among things. We soon realized that a) biometrics alone is not going to take as far, we need integrations - IOW, end-to-end solution with biometrics being a component of the solution b) lot of customers want something simpler than biometrics. i.e. alternative form of authentication. Now in the US of A, not much can be done with a million bucks given the fact that 40% goes away in non-product development activities. I can imagine a lot of businesses are in a situation similar to ours. If Indian IT wasn't providing value, they would be out a long time ago. In my previous jobs, I have seen folks work up to 2am India time without being requested to stay back just because they have a sense of responsibility. They wouldn't leave their client/onsite team high and dry. That type of commitment is not very prevalent in American work culture. I wouldn't say its non-existent but you would have to plan in advance for such a thing. With TCS,Infy, CTS, lot of times it comes without asking because of the work culture.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Neshant » 08 May 2017 05:35

Wages of workers are being ground down lower by corporations in the west primarily to profit a few at the top.
One might say this is capitalism.
But its not capitalism when central banking and bought off politicians are nothing more than agents for these banks & corporations.

Massive bailouts, money printing and "stimulus" aka running up national debt to profit these corporations, avoidance of prosecution of banker crimes, are all symptoms of an illness called crony capitalism. Its where corporations & banksters get wealthy on the way up while dumping their losses and tightning belts of the productive workforce on the way down.

While this works at the corporate level, it hollows out the economy.
CEOs, Bankers, Financing & High Rolling Wall St types (basically those producing zero items of value in the economy but having good connections to corporations & banking) all do well.

However the real producers of wealth (the engineer, the programmer, the machinist, the janitor..etc) are progressively driven to a lower standard of living. They get stuck in dead end jobs if they have one, their lowered standard of living and longer working hours do not enable them to innovate new products nor start new businesses. Nor can they save their way to some financial independence to begin that process of starting their own business.

This has long term consequences for any country as the productive people are ground down while the non-productive, useless rent-seeking banksters & CEOs do well.

Back to the issue of IT, its a myth that Indians or anyone else have some greater work ethic than someone else. I've seen hard working and lazy Indians, competent and incompetent ones. The reason for IT jobs migrating to India is primarily cost. There isn't a shortage of skills, labor..etc in the west as corporations like to claim prior to moving jobs off shore. Were it so, wages would be rising not falling in real terms.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Gus » 08 May 2017 06:28

We had an integration piece needed for a demo, where we did not have in house expertise. Had to engage with an Indian It partner to do that and despite us delaying access due to client issues, they came through for us by throwing more bodies and long hours and turned it around in few days (compared to original budget of couple weeks). This was an engagement where there was no guarantee that end client will pick that partner even if they picked our solution. People who have engaged with IT delivery know that the experience and quality is a spectrum and YMMV etc.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby morem » 08 May 2017 06:39

Gus wrote:We had an integration piece needed for a demo, where we did not have in house expertise. Had to engage with an Indian It partner to do that and despite us delaying access due to client issues, they came through for us by throwing more bodies and long hours and turned it around in few days (compared to original budget of couple weeks). This was an engagement where there was no guarantee that end client will pick that partner even if they picked our solution. People who have engaged with IT delivery know that the experience and quality is a spectrum and YMMV etc.


+1
I moved from India to US for a big 4 and the level of effort / post working hours support expected of India resources is way higher than anyone in the US.
India resources are regularly expected to take calls till 10 pm in the night.
In the US - i have rarely if ever seen anyone set calls after 6 pm local time - maybe some leeway for timezone difference but thts about it.
Not saying that people here are not dedicated or anything like that - just that it is naturally assumed that someone in India will attend calls late in night.
I once declined a call at 2 am IST - when i was back in India - and got a 'feedback' email from onshore director next day. I have never seen anyone accept 2 am calls here.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby arshyam » 08 May 2017 07:22

KJo wrote:I feel sad when Modi has to call the Australian PM and beg for work visas. WTF man? Don't we have any pride? Why are we begging the white man to throw us some crumbs? Foreign leaders have NO RESPONSIBILITY to care about Indian IT workers. Many Indians seem to forget this. Trump does not and should not care about non-American citizens. He should do what is good for the US. The sooner we realize this the better. Pakis are even worse off than us on this.

Narendra Modi raises 457 work visa row in telephonic conversation with Australian PM Malcolm Turnbull
http://www.india.com/news/india/narendr ... l-2091287/
You are looking at it from an Australian and immigration PoV, but there is a far simpler explanation. WTO commitments. Work visas are covered under labour movement clauses toward free trade, so Aus is bound by its commitments. That's also why if Trump revokes H1-B, India can take the US to the WTO tribunal. It is a trade issue. Keeping this in mind, what Modi did was normal and expected. Expect Nirmala Sitaraman to follow up on this - it comes under her ministry's ambit, and not MEA.

As for the immigration option, that's up to the host country and its laws. No one asked the US or Australia to provide a path for residency, they could be like the Gulf states. You'll notice GoI has never commented on GC, priority dates, etc., that would be begging for jobs.

KJo wrote:How will we feel if President of Islamic Republic of Timbucktooistan calls up Modi and demands him not to abrogate Art 370?
Really? That's your equivalence?

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Marten » 08 May 2017 07:48

Santosh saar, who provides your matching algos, or are you developing those as well?

Morem saar, forget 2am calls - I have trouble getting my non-desi team in the US to attend regular weekly calls at 7pm. We've tried everything but folks just write in with excuses each week. Fortunately, we have one diligent team lead who ensures the reports and plans and tracking systems are always updated. Eventually the non Desi managers and leads will get replaced by people who will assume responsibility for their work and actions.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby JE Menon » 08 May 2017 19:48

Guys I don't know if there is a thread where I can ask this, so I'm asking it here:

A friend of mine is looking for up to 40 Game Developers to be located in Cyprus.
They can expect a salary of between €1,500 and €4000/month gross and a challenging work environment, and a very easy going liberal social climate. He could get them from elsewhere, but well your's truly intervened. Now the only headache is I have no idea how to help him get them... Lots of you folk are in the IT industry. Maybe you can advise, or even have the people ...

It's OT and personal, so if you can lead me to a thread where this can be discussed if necessary let me know which one it is.

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby symontk » 08 May 2017 20:15

Karthik S wrote:TCS stopped applying for H1s last year itself sir. We need to remember many STEM masters students whose petition wasn't picked first time, will reapply next year, as they have 3 years OPT. So their backlog itself will contribute much and add to the first time F1 students applying for H1.


But which company will recruit for $130K minimum?

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Re: Indian IT Industry

Postby Vikas » 08 May 2017 21:08

morem wrote:
Gus wrote:We had an integration piece needed for a demo, where we did not have in house expertise. Had to engage with an Indian It partner to do that and despite us delaying access due to client issues, they came through for us by throwing more bodies and long hours and turned it around in few days (compared to original budget of couple weeks). This was an engagement where there was no guarantee that end client will pick that partner even if they picked our solution. People who have engaged with IT delivery know that the experience and quality is a spectrum and YMMV etc.


+1
I moved from India to US for a big 4 and the level of effort / post working hours support expected of India resources is way higher than anyone in the US.
India resources are regularly expected to take calls till 10 pm in the night.
In the US - i have rarely if ever seen anyone set calls after 6 pm local time - maybe some leeway for timezone difference but thts about it.
Not saying that people here are not dedicated or anything like that - just that it is naturally assumed that someone in India will attend calls late in night.
I once declined a call at 2 am IST - when i was back in India - and got a 'feedback' email from onshore director next day. I have never seen anyone accept 2 am calls here.


Sadly even I have attended calls at 11:00 PM - 1:00 AM range since it is right time in EST/PST but unfortunately there is no running away from it as much as you hate it. It is like one of those things which like death and taxes are permanent in life.
Everyone in the ecosystem assumes that we in India dont have any life in the evening and can be called for call anytime especially the desi bosses in USA.

While I am typing this post, I am sitting in a stupid call waiting for the call to get over to have my dinner.
Last edited by Vikas on 08 May 2017 21:14, edited 1 time in total.


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