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Indian Autos Thread -2

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby NRao » 19 Jun 2016 04:15

and Africa should be the short term priority after which, we should go global.


I was is South Africa in 2006 and saw billboards for M&M in Cape Town.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby rahulm » 19 Jun 2016 05:51

Deleted and moved to Auto thread to avoid thread derailment.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby rahulm » 19 Jun 2016 06:15

--Moved post from Economics thread--

Even in Oz. TATA seems to have lost the plot or more accurately it has no plot. Approach seems to be to intermittently spray and occasionally pray. Even today, TATA is infamously but deservedly remembered and derided for the terrible TATA Estate misadventure in Oz. TATA retreated with its tail between its legs

More recently, MM has better brand value, comparatively speaking. MM is leveraging its OK reputation in agricultural tractors. I have seen several MM showrooms in rural OZ. In contrast, I can't fathom TATA's logic in showroom locations which are also very few.

Through my connections, I offered to put the XENON through its paces in my 4WD club ad help establish its reputation and pedigree among die hard committed 4WD enthusiasts. No interest. In contrast, TOYOTA has forged close relationships with 4WD clubs in Australia and Senior visiting engineers and designers from Japan will take the time out to visit and interact with the clubs on club night and wine and dine with real uses, listen to real feedback and suggestions and then actually do something to make products better.

That's how better products are built, brand value cemented and future business assured. Its no wonder that the TOYOTA HiLux and Landcruiser sit at the top of the totem pole in Oz. Their 70 and 80 series are undisputed off road kings and indestructible, as long as you change oil regularly.

I was under the impression TATA does well in Africa During my Kenya trip I also did a highway drive from Nairobi to Monbassa and was expecting to see TATA trucks all the time. Fact is, I saw very few. Mercedes Benz Actros and Acros rule the roads here. I had my eyes peeled for the entire drive. Occasionally, I saw a TATA with "SAT NAAM WAHEGURU".

Reportedly, the Megapixel is not due until 2020. Firstly, that's a hybrid which is a transition tech and more importantly, I feel that's too late. Musk and others will have disrupted the IC engine and TATA is going to be breathing Musky dust. Oh, wait - they can always collaborate like they started out with Benz in their early years. Interestingly, TOYOTA believes EV's have no future and is betting on hydrogen instead - will be interesting to watch who is right.

There are a few Sr. Execs at TATA who are disappointed and angry that TATA did not leverage their EV tech acquisitions sooner and be in the game with the rest right now. TATA is nowhere in the EV game as at today and the disruption train is headed straight for it.

I asked some TATA people about the cheap plastics issue and why they can't leverage their JLR stables. Apparently, its a cost issue and they are trying. In his words "We are trying very hard but somehow it's proving to be more challenging that we anticipated". Currently, their plastics feel and finish is at par with Neelam plastic chairs Their higher end models are getting better but still not at the level where they are a benchmark.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Gagan » 19 Jun 2016 06:33

Technologically, it will be difficult for any breakthrough indian auto company to break the monopoly of the germans or the tech and cost effectiveness / reliability of the japanese.
The American car makers :rotfl: the Fords / dodges or the Chevys, sure !

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2016 10:39

^^ the point is the american car makers have attained massive size through domestic and western hemisphere market.
likewise all are titans in their home market.

its only indian makers who cannot even dominate their domestic market after decades of local experience.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2016 10:44

road tax in KA is already highest in south india. they should quit all these bullshit demand side ideas and work to improve infra in time ...

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 19 Jun 2016 11:30

@rahulm

Please specify which models are you referring to in relation to cheap plastics. I have been driving zest for over an year now and am more than happy with the car. In fact I am amazed at the value which I got at this price point. It does feel premium compared to all the competition including the famed Toyota. Though they sell only 2k units a month against 20k units of desire! Tiago is doing much better though with 24k bookings and 140k inquiries since launch. Recently Tata rolled out 10000th Tiago from production line.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 19 Jun 2016 11:53

Lot of us who grew up in 90s thought Tata Safari is how a SUV should be and it has a Royal Enfield like following among auto enthusiasts but if you see it's interiors you would realize why Tata despite having all the basic infra and means somehow never grew like Mahindra who came into the SUV segment much later. Tatas have a huge intertia which plagues most of the old big companies , in terms of features , aesthetics Hyundai has left everyone else much behind even the Hondas which are being made in India have horrible panel gaps and thin sheet metal .

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 19 Jun 2016 12:28

Historically yes but like everything else Tata is changing as well and in a good way. Just look at the Nexon and it is hard to believe that it is a Tata. Regarding interiors, new launches have contemporary interiors just like others or better. In Zest, the infotainment system is miles ahead of competition. In my view, these are all generalisations based on the past deeds of Tata and does not reflect current gen of Tata vehicles. Though there have been debacles from tata (read Aria) recently but in general there new lineup is quite worthy.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 19 Jun 2016 13:43

^ These are not generalizations it is not as if Tata makes 100 types of vehicles and same is true about competition . Look at Hyundai when it entered with Santro back in late 90s it was a small player today it competed with it's offerings in all the segments below the luxury tier . In terms of features , price point and interiors be it the Germans or even the Japanese they all are far behind the Hyundai today (Grand i10 has AC for even the passengers on the rear bench, auto folding ORVMs all under 7.5 lakhs on road a VW polo will not give you these features nor will a Honda Brio.). For all that noise about Creta being over priced it has long waiting queues , same with Honda city , Hyundai i20 and even Maruti's Swift ; the common factor across all of these vehicles is the manufacturer has not tried to play the economy card , Swift is as expensive as the VW Polo , i20 is even more expensive , City is the most expensive car in it's segment and now so is Creta yet all of them are selling like hot cakes and the reason is Indian middle class is growing . Tata has in all it's offerings tried to win on price factor and that is why it made huge in roads in Taxi segment with Indica and Indigo however this success in taxi segment has also hurt it's image among the middle class or upper middle class . Tata has now launched Tiago , again at that price point and features it cannot compete with top of the line hatches from Hyundai , Honda , Maruti's Baleno or VW polo . Tiago will have to slug it out against likes of Celerio, Hyundai Eon , Chevy beat, WagonR , Alto k10 and Kwid this segment does not have too much space for margins so obviously vehicles in this segment are not loaded . Look at i10 Grande it has AC vents for rear bench occupants (a first in this segment ), it has keyless entry, electronically foldable ORVMs and start ignition (When I bought my Polo I had none of these and it was more expensive than the i10 Grande) . Tata has no offerings in middle segment where City, Verna , Vento and Ciaz are placed , it's Safari has not seen the kind of success XUV500 , Creta or even Duster and Ecosport have seen in recent times all this when Tata was already in this market at a time when none of these foreign players had a single product in the country.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Kashi » 19 Jun 2016 13:57

^^ GM and Ford have ~17% and ~14.5% marketshare of the American market, which is greatly helped by the "Chicken tax" imposed on goods vehicles (trucks etc) from overseas.

The rest of the market has been cornered by Japanese, European and Korean brands.

Titans indeed.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Arjun » 19 Jun 2016 14:13

Maruti skews the market....no other country has as big a domination by one manufacturer as in India (47%). And with Suzuki acquiring majority control that means bulk of market is now in overseas hands.

Tata+M&M need to increase their share from 14% to 33%+ over next 10 years. Has happened earlier, I would be sanguine....Domestic Pharma, I-banking all used to be controlled by MNCs and now largely in Indian hands.
Last edited by Arjun on 19 Jun 2016 16:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 19 Jun 2016 19:46

By generalization I was referring to "cheap plastics" comment. I don't see it in my car + other tata cars that I see, so definitely a generalization for me. Yes if you are referring to Indiacas of yore than you are right. Again you are wrong when you say Tata banks on feature less cheap cars for sales. Tata provides value/quality at affordable price. Why so much fixation on rear vent? Normal AC vents on Zest are enough to cool down a hot cabin in 5 minutes. Even Nano's ac is known to be a chiller with 624 cc engine! Regarding features, Zest comes with three maps for ECU(not transmission modes on auto boxes), Honeywell turbo for petrol ( segment first), segment beating infotainment system from Harman kardon with navigation( my colleagues 27 lakh fortuner makes do with a 5k aftermarket unit), projector headlamps, DRL, Led tail lamps, airbags, abs, ebd, CSC etc at onroad price of 7 lakhs in Delhi. Tata has been lethargic (like PSUs) and function as such and has done blunders in past but now it is coming up as a bright prospect in auto industry with nice products on sale and in the pipeline. Regarding waiting queues and sales in India, the less said the better. Dezire sells 20k units a month even when it's not the best product in the segment. When I was about to buy a tata, every Tom dick and Harry warned me against it. When I asked whether they have driven a tata ever, answer was always a no. Reminds me a quote from Tejas dhaga " Those pilots who criticized Tejas, never flew her.Those pilots who flew her, never criticized her."

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2016 20:26

Hyundai is reported as working on a santro nextgen based on customer demand. I10 is too small and i20 too big, without the headroom of santro.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 19 Jun 2016 20:31

Sire none of us are sentimental in the consumer market the sales tell all the story ; be it USA , India or even EU everyone knows a Honda or Toyota will not fail them these beliefs have not been formed from hearsay ; today the way Made in China has a negative connotation same used to be the case with Made in Japan badge about 40 or so years ago however that is no longer the case today , Hyundai was looked down upon back in 90s or even early 2000s it was even called a poor man's Honda but that is no longer the case today , Tata is not yet there nothing more nothing less I do not want to cherry pick on things but a cursory glance at one's neighborhood and the cars people drive should end this debate , Tata might compete with Mahindra and Maruti in a specific segment but as I said it has no product to compete the hot hatch segment which starts somewhere from 7 lakhs to 9 lakhs band , no product to compete in mid size sedans like CIaz, City, Verna or Vento and then again nothing to compete in either Ecosport/Terrano/Duster/Creta/XUV segment , Safari is the only saving grace there , we have been hearing about Land Rover based SUV as a next Gen Safari offering so hopefully that will change things. Bolt and Tiago are good products but as I said they will not attract attention of the modern Indian middle class who might be able to stretch their budget in order to get something more powerful and bigger, as I said a long waiting queue for Creta or even the success of City clearly show that Indian customers beyond the entry level compact hatch segment are not as sensitive to pricing as they are to power, aesthetics and features.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 19 Jun 2016 20:40

Singha wrote:Hyundai is reported as working on a santro nextgen based on customer demand. I10 is too small and i20 too big, without the headroom of santro.

WagonR rules that segment today.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 19 Jun 2016 20:52

Saar I am not saying Tata is king of the hill. My only contention is credit should be given where it is due. Tata is responsible for the poor brand image no two ways about it but it has improved by leaps and bounds in terms of quality of products. In fact their cars are as contemporary as others and definitely don't skimp on quality.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2016 21:09

negi wrote:
Singha wrote:Hyundai is reported as working on a santro nextgen based on customer demand. I10 is too small and i20 too big, without the headroom of santro.

WagonR rules that segment today.


Ertiga also. Hyundai probably wants to close that portfolio gap

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Raveen » 20 Jun 2016 02:11

schinnas wrote:
We need to get out of our mindset that anything desi or Made in India by Indians will be low in quality by default.

respectable brands like ... Hyundai.



I agree with the first statement

Also, no one, and absolutely no one considers Hyundai/Kia a respectable car internationally. Its a cheap beater car/appliance and looked down upon the same way the Japper cars were in the 70s.
They are imitating the Japanese manufacturers so they might there eventually but they are still considered 2nd grade only marginally better than Suzuki and Mitsu in the US market.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2016 06:58

17% and 14% of usa market would be a giant number.
They have robusy r&d internally and deep ties to govt and univs
The help they get is no different than chinese national champions..atleast usa allows most makers in...china banned google, Facebook etc to give a leg up to their munnas and still do. From the rest they steal when they can.

Problem is goi is too dharmic and short term and under hooks of foreign interests so our national cos get very little preferential steps

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Kashi » 20 Jun 2016 07:34

Singha wrote:17% and 14% of usa market would be a giant number.
They have robusy r&d internally and deep ties to govt and univs
The help they get is no different than chinese national champions..atleast usa allows most makers in...china banned google, Facebook etc to give a leg up to their munnas and still do. From the rest they steal when they can.


Indeed. Especially since they have a monopoly on goods vehicles market, where overseas competitors are priced out due to the "Chicken tax". It's noteworthy that the two US auto giants despite having robust R&D, deep state connections, home turf advantage and an unfettered access to goods vehicles market have a combined market share of 31% (passenger and good vehicles), whereas the overseas carmakers who are restricted to the passenger vehicles only have >50% (closer to 60%) share of the entire US auto market.

To be fair, US is not the only country to be protective of domestic auto industry. Japan is famous for it's tariff barriers on overseas vehicles, so is SoKo. Yet, Euro automakers still find a way to compete in these markets, even if their share is stunted. US automakers on the other hand are largely non-existent there.

Chinese are a different kettle of fish altogether, you wouldn't want to compare the "Land of the free and the brave" with the "Land of Mao" would you?

Singha wrote:Problem is goi is too dharmic and short term and under hooks of foreign interests so our national cos get very little preferential steps


The problem goes both ways, GoI is known to bend over and the domestics are known to cut corners when it comes to R&D. How many innovation centres are known to be run and funded by TATA, Reliance, Mahindra, Ashok Lelyland et al.?
How much advanced technology that TATA must have acquired from its Jaguar/Land Rover acquisitions have been imbibed into their domestic operations? It's hard to believe that there would be many export controlled items in that list.
How many Indian automakers have the know how to manufacture gear box transmission?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby ldev » 20 Jun 2016 07:57

At 430/km Mumbai has highest car density

:rotfl:
This means that if every single car in Mumbai is on the road at the same time, all 2000 kms of Mumbai roads will be one massive traffic jam. Actually 1000 meters/430=2.32 meters space for each car. Of course some are multi lane roads, but still you are talking about no movement at all!! And the chi chi people of Mumbai are buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis and Audi R8s to drive on these jam packed roads according to team-bhp.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 20 Jun 2016 08:03

^ Well Delhi tops the charts in this aspect it has close to 90 lakh vehicles followed by Blore at around 55 lakh then Chennai at 40 something , Mumbai only has 25-30 lakh vehicles. Scary part is Blore is adding up new vehicles at a rate of more than 10% every year .

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2016 08:49

NCR is some 5 times the area of blr, with better roads + metro...so they can still manage it.

blr has the worst road network among the top6 metros and the 2nd largest number of vehicles, growing at highest rate of the top 6.

not a good place to be in...

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jun 2016 09:16

negi wrote:^ Well Delhi tops the charts in this aspect it has close to 90 lakh vehicles followed by Blore at around 55 lakh then Chennai at 40 something , Mumbai only has 25-30 lakh vehicles. Scary part is Blore is adding up new vehicles at a rate of more than 10% every year .


There is a misconception here in Statistics, In the case of Mumbai, Kolkota and CHennai will always seem to have less Vehicles since they are taking only core areas, it used to be 400 SQkm for Mumbai, 178 SQkm for Chennai and 170 SQkm for Kolkota.

While for Bengaluru Greater Bengaluru 1500km, Entire NCR for Delhi and GHMC- 1800Km for Hyderabad.

So a superfical look it will seem Chennai, Mumbai and Kolkota have a very high density of Vehicles but overall less no. of Vehicles to Delhi, Bengaluru and Hyderabad. But this is because they give statistics comparing apples and oranges.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby chetak » 20 Jun 2016 09:52

The TATA JLR combo is not really able to leverage the esoteric JLR stuff into the TATA produced vehicles in India because the JLR stuff is too high end for the India's predominantly lower end and price point driven markets.

OTOH, Mahindra have been able to leverage some of the technology acquired from their JVs with other companies or even from the foreign companies that they own outright, purchased by them in virtually distressed sale conditions. Their products are mostly priced right for the Indian market.

The Mahindra's have access to just the right type of lower end technological innovations that are a fairly good fit in the Indian mass market and their mix of home brew vehicles developed specially for the India market clearly shows the unmistakable evidence of such inputs.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2016 12:39

my CT is tata corus and tata jlr acquisitions were back scratching deals to bail out some of the british deep state which they have cavorted with ever since they made their initial fortune exporting opium to china in concert with some of the british far east trading houses.

what corus technology exactly did they manage to leverage ? do they even make automobile, shipping and aerospace quality metal plates or ingots? I think they even had to sign some moratorium on TOT or work transfer of JLR back to India - it has to remain in UK and UK hands in perpetuity I think. in contrast the 1st batch of chinese overlords who came to take over volvo from geely must have brought cardboard boxes and Uhaul trucks to immediately send whatever tech they could back home.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby chetak » 20 Jun 2016 12:44

Singha wrote:my CT is tata corus and tata jlr acquisitions were back scratching deals to bail out some of the british deep state which they have cavorted with ever since they made their initial fortune exporting opium to china in concert with some of the british far east trading houses.

what corus technology exactly did they manage to leverage ? do they even make automobile, shipping and aerospace quality metal plates or ingots? I think they even had to sign some moratorium on TOT or work transfer of JLR back to India - it has to remain in UK and UK hands in perpetuity I think. in contrast the 1st batch of chinese overlords who came to take over volvo from geely must have brought cardboard boxes and Uhaul trucks to immediately send whatever tech they could back home.


another example of the famous "honest" businessman??

Radia onlee knows :)

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Aug 2016 05:56

Not all that Indians do is inept. The Brits, Germans and Americans all had a kick at JLR. They couldn't wait to head to the exits. Indians seem to have made the brand one global benchmark.

I'll sell my Mercedes cars before I sell my Ranges Rovers.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Aug 2016 09:35

I am looking to buy a small automatic car soon. I live in Mumbai. Maruthi Celerio seems to be a cheap one. But I am looking for slightly better one like i10 or even Swift. At present both do not have an automatic version. Is there any good small car is there in the market with auto gears?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nandakumar » 23 Aug 2016 11:23

Hyundai i10 Grand has automatic gears, I think.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Aug 2016 11:56

Thank you sir. I will check it. Is there any chance Swift comes in an Auto option?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby adityadange » 23 Aug 2016 12:44

@Yagnasri, if you can wait till diwali then Tiago is coming up with AMT. its a great car an very well priced as well. just yesterday renault kwid is also launched with 1.0L engine and AMT.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby schinnas » 23 Aug 2016 13:13

Tiago is much better value proposition than Celerio. Couldnt wait for the AMT version of Tiago to roll out. Would make for a nice city car / second car.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Aug 2016 14:14

ok. I will try to wait. Rumour has it that even Swift is coming as automatic. I think may be that one also should be a good option.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nandakumar » 23 Aug 2016 14:39

Yagnasri wrote:Thank you sir. I will check it. Is there any chance Swift comes in an Auto option?

I had an occasion to speak to the Motoring Editor of Business Line. He recommended Celerio and Grand i10 in the hatchback category for automatic transmission. About other options I will check with him. But he is away most of the time. Either the car he is checking out is exotic (the last one was an Audi super sports car built on the Lamborghini platform) or the location is exotic (Alps in Switzerland). So difficult to get him. Will let you know once I have something.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Nsmith » 23 Aug 2016 14:47

Yagnasri saar, have you TDed Polo GT TSI? Slightly expensive for a hatchback, but the dual clutch auto gearbox is the best in the business.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby sarang » 23 Aug 2016 14:49

and there is Honda Brio also.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Dilbu » 23 Aug 2016 15:16

I think TATA has turned a corner with the introduction of Tiago. The build quality, features and the pricing of this car makes Tata a serious player in below 6 lakhs segment. Also they are not going to release this car for commercial operations as taxis, which had dented their brand image badly in the past. They have a lineup of good looking cars to be released in a row in the coming months. They are definitely trying to up their game this time.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby adityadange » 23 Aug 2016 15:48

Guys does anybody owns TUV300 who can share ownership experience?


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