Indian Autos Thread -2

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Mollick.R
BRFite
Posts: 1033
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 10:26

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Mollick.R »

Global NCAP gives zero rating to this Maruti car for adult safety – Know

New Delhi: Vehicle safety group Global NCAP on Wednesday said it has given zero star for safety to Maruti Suzuki's entry level model S-Presso for adult occupant protection, a finding which the company derided saying that it complies with Indian government regulations. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Vehicles are rated from zero to five based on their safety features and automobiles with higher rating are considered more safe for occupants.

The Maruti Suzuki S-Presso has achieved a disappointing zero star rating in the new round of #SaferCarsForIndia crash tests, Global NCAP said in a statement.
..................

The Global NCAP also tested Hyundai's Grand i10 Nios and Kia Motors' Seltos along with S-Presso in the current round of evaluation. Grand i10 Nios received two stars for adult occupant protection and two stars for child occupant protection.

On the other hand, Kia Seltos achieved three stars for adult occupant protection and two stars for child occupant protection. Commenting on S-Presso, the Global NCAP said the vehicle's structure was unstable and should be improved.?The safety body also rated the footwell area of the model as unstable.

"Child occupant protection showed poor results for both child dummies in the dynamic test explained by the poor performance of the restraint systems," Global NCAP said. The car does not offer three point belts in all positions as standard and has no ISOFIX anchorages for the child restraint systems, it added.

"It is very disappointing that Maruti Suzuki, the manufacturer with the largest share of the Indian market, offers such low safety performance for Indian consumers," Global NCAP Secretary General Alejandro Furas said. Domestic manufacturers like Mahindra and Tata have demonstrated high levels of safety and protection for their customers, both achieving five star performance, he added. "Surely, it's time for Maruti Suzuki to demonstrate this commitment to safety for its customers," Furas noted.

When contacted, Maruti Suzuki India said that safety is a critical issue and is therefore closely regulated by governments around the world as they are responsible for the safety of the people in their countries. "It cannot be left to the opinion of any self proclaimed party. The Government of India has recently increased the stringency of car crash test standards and made them identical to European standards. All products of the company are fully compliant with these global standards and duly tested and certified by the Government of India," it added.
The MS guy is speaking age old parroted BS.......... Global NCAP frontal test is at 64 kmph, however same for Indian standard (BNV-SAP) is 56 kmph............

The Global NCAP also rated structure and footwell area of Grand i10 Nios as unstable. It rated the structure of Seltos as a borderline case unstable. It also rated the model's footwell area as unstable.

Read Full Article Here//
https://zeenews.india.com/automobile/gl ... 24293.html
Mollick.R
BRFite
Posts: 1033
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 10:26

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Mollick.R »

This link has the Arrogant Tin Ka Dubba Car Manufacturer's Crash Test Video

Maruti Suzuki S-Presso Hatchback Scores Zero Star in Global NCAP Safety Crash Test

https://www.news18.com/news/auto/maruti ... 69758.html
Mollick.R
BRFite
Posts: 1033
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 10:26

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Mollick.R »

A More Detailed Article..............
Global NCAP crash test: Maruti Suzuki S-Presso scores zero stars while Kia Seltos gets 3-star rating
Car News Times Drive Desk Times Drive Desk Updated Nov 11, 2020 | 18:27 IST

https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-n ... ing/680544
Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 520
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Rishi_Tri »

^^The smaller of the Maruti Suzuki cars were always rumored to be matchboxes on four wheels. What I find disconcerting is that Maruti Suzuki continues to bring out vehicles that are patent safety hazards. S-Presso is absolute dabba and looks unsafe.

It is interesting that Kia Seltos has scored Three Stars. In the adjacent category Tata Nexon has Five Star rating (it had Four Star rating and worked to get Five Star rating) and Vitara Brezza has Four Star rating. So Hyundai / Kia has compromised safety in favor of superficial features. Let's see how does Sonet perform in these tests.

Toyota Etios and Liva had Five Star Ratings. If they had done better job of marketing their safety and had interiors better than the Cab interiors that they had, Toyota would not be resellers of Maruti Suzuki products. Anyway, they knew what they were doing.

These safety ratings are doing good job of educating car buyers on safety of products that they are considering.
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by arshyam »

This page has all the crash test videos of Global NCAP for Indian cars. See for yourself - hopefully, you will stay away from Suzuki. #RunFarRunFast :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... RduH9iF79i



Here's the data from the source for the ~40 cars they tested: http://www.globalncap.org/results/

This slightly dated (does not have latest 2020 results) graphic is compiled from the results, see the number of desi manufacturers at the top. #Hatsoff

Image
Source: Car Wale
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Zynda »

IIRC, Indian automobile OEMs (led by Maruti) were able to successfully lobby and decrease the Indian crash norms speed to 56 Kph from 64 Kph (followed by GNCAP I believe). It is quite possible that Indian models of entry level hatchbacks will just meet 56 Kph norms but fail 64 Kph Global or Latin NCAP tests. Still, I am yet to see Maruti tout crash norms on any of their entry level or B-level segment vehicles. Its always features or how much chrome bling. Only recently, they have been putting up bare min. of 2 airbags, ABS etc.

I do hope that GoI gives these OEMs 5 years to figure out a way to bring up the crash norms speed to 64 Kph at least and also make 4 airbags minimum. But them manf. have just started recovering from Covid sales slump & I am sure they'll create a lot of push back on any such change in norms.
Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 841
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Raveen »

Mollick.R wrote:This link has the Arrogant Tin Ka Dubba Car Manufacturer's Crash Test Video

Maruti Suzuki S-Presso Hatchback Scores Zero Star in Global NCAP Safety Crash Test

https://www.news18.com/news/auto/maruti ... 69758.html
I remember there was one poster here who was vehemently defending Suzuki's horrendous death trap tin cans - wonder what they have to say about this
Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 841
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Raveen »

Zynda wrote:IIRC, Indian automobile OEMs (led by Maruti) were able to successfully lobby and decrease the Indian crash norms speed to 56 Kph from 64 Kph (followed by GNCAP I believe). It is quite possible that Indian models of entry level hatchbacks will just meet 56 Kph norms but fail 64 Kph Global or Latin NCAP tests.
Yes they were, and Super 8 is a great movie, but there is nothing super about those 8 km/h. Once a tin can death trap, always a failed tin can death trap.
Avinandan
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 12 Jun 2005 12:29
Location: Pune

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Avinandan »

Hi All,
I am looking to get some details about moped ( most probably from Kinetic ). There are hardly any photos of it in the internet.
However got hold of it in this movie clip.



Name and make would be most helpful.
Many thanks in advance

_/\_
morem
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 15:52

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by morem »

I believe it was called MOFA
sanjayc
BRFite
Posts: 1091
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 21:40

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by sanjayc »

Avinandan
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 12 Jun 2005 12:29
Location: Pune

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Avinandan »

morem wrote:I believe it was called MOFA
MOFA it is !!
Many thanks Sir.

Do you by chance know any other 25cc two wheeler created in the past ?

I am also looking for a picture of Kinetic Swift Moped.
It was a cousin of Kinetic Spark with the fuel tank being under the seat, wngine being the same.

Sadly no pictures of this in the internet or any information.
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Zynda »

Bowing down to Auto industry lobby, Nitin Gadkari told they have submitted a scrappage policy proposal for review and it might be announced during this year's budget. So any 4 wheelers or above & which is beyond 15 years since date of Manufacture needs to be scrapped. Already auto rickshaws and two wheelers are not included in the above policy. Quite likely the cab unions will lobby hard to get some sort of exemption. Ultimately, it will be private owners who will be forced to buy a newer vehicle. At least, I hope GoI will announce some sweet deals during exchange. Also, I hope those deals won't be for just electric vehicles because as of now, there aren't just viable electric vehicles below 7L in India not to mention infrastructure.

The main reason for the above is hard lobbying by the auto industry to provide incentives to spur domestic demand. Additional reasons as stated by Gadkar is to eliminate old & polluting vehicles (yeah, right) from the road. I know cases (mainly elderly couple) who own a very well maintained but seldom used hatchbacks and forcing them to buy a newer vehicle would be unfair when bad maintained public buses, lorries, auto rickshaws ply on the roads with impunity. Also in the current economic climate where job market outlook is not rosy for certain industries, taking on EMIs for a car would be additional burden...

Edit: I hope they give consumers some time and not be like "vehicle needs to be replaced within 6 months from enactment"...or they make it extremely expensive to renew RC for vehicles greater than 15 years.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by kit »

Zynda wrote:Bowing down to Auto industry lobby, Nitin Gadkari told they have submitted a scrappage policy proposal for review and it might be announced during this year's budget. So any 4 wheelers or above & which is beyond 15 years since date of Manufacture needs to be scrapped. Already auto rickshaws and two wheelers are not included in the above policy. Quite likely the cab unions will lobby hard to get some sort of exemption. Ultimately, it will be private owners who will be forced to buy a newer vehicle. At least, I hope GoI will announce some sweet deals during exchange. Also, I hope those deals won't be for just electric vehicles because as of now, there aren't just viable electric vehicles below 7L in India not to mention infrastructure.

The main reason for the above is hard lobbying by the auto industry to provide incentives to spur domestic demand. Additional reasons as stated by Gadkar is to eliminate old & polluting vehicles (yeah, right) from the road. I know cases (mainly elderly couple) who own a very well maintained but seldom used hatchbacks and forcing them to buy a newer vehicle would be unfair when bad maintained public buses, lorries, auto rickshaws ply on the roads with impunity. Also in the current economic climate where job market outlook is not rosy for certain industries, taking on EMIs for a car would be additional burden...

Edit: I hope they give consumers some time and not be like "vehicle needs to be replaced within 6 months from enactment"...or they make it extremely expensive to renew RC for vehicles greater than 15 years.
The could subsidize the cost ! , a buy back of say 40 percent of the going value and giving incentives for electric vehicles on top of it.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

They won't subsidize it. These are harebrained ideas they copy from countries like Japan or Singapore and apply to a capital starved country like India. What is the point in destroying perfectly good cars just because it is 15 yrs old ? Ensure better standards of emission checks on older cars instead and maybe an increase in the cost of registration renewal but don't burden the middleclass by taking away their paid-off inexpensive transportation and forcing them to buy a new automobile when they are already struggling with job loses, food and fuel inflation, rising cost of education and healthcare. Gadkari's time will be better spent looking at the abysmal state of some of our national highways (NH 48 and NH 75 anyone?) instead of screwing over the middleclass again.
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Zynda »

Even in the US, the cash for clunkers program was optional...like Ambar mentioned, strengthen the enforcement mechanism of emission norms/checks on existing vehicles instead of forcing consumers to change a car just because it is 15+ yrs when it is perfectly meeting current GoI's emission norms. Also currently, electric vehicles do not offer the same VFM as an IC one especially in sub-10L category...
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

Our babudom isn't exactly known for making sensible, rational decisions. If they were to consult with industry experts (and not car manufacturers) they will realize that modern day automobiles last much much longer than cars 30 or 40 yrs ago. Imagine forcing someone to destroy their paid off Toyota Innova which has done <50k kms just because it is 15 yrs old . Also, after homes the only other material object that people usually emotionally bond with are cars, hence even in the some of the most environmentally conscious nordic countries they have laws around usage of old and vintage cars but they don't force people to scrap them.

I've made this point several times while discussing the farm bills, the govt. needs to follow the adage in ODI cricket "Keep the scoreboard ticking" instead of trying to hit sixers every over. They need to focus on simpler things first like fixing the existing roads, improving administrative efficiency and reducing corruption. To Gadkari i have a suggestion - fix the corrupt NHAI and our existing broken highways, in many states the highways connecting major ports and cities are unserviceable for 6 to 8 months in an year. Secondly, use common sense driven administrative process. Today if i have to get a FC (fitness certificate) for my car or bike, i am forced to drag it to the same RTO office where it was registered ! Imagine, if i have a Amravati RTO registered motorcycle and i have relocated to Pune for work, then at the time of FC renewal i need to take my motorcycle back to Amravati ! This is when all the RTOs have access to vaahan DB, it makes zero sense !
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6088
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Japan it prohibitively expensive to keep the same car for more than a few years. I am sure the legislation benefits their automakers.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Vayutuvan »

One of my Singaporean friends used to tell me the rule in Singapore. One cannot own a car that is older than five years. Cars were ~$50K. Every car owner had to send their 5 year old car for recycling and shell out $50K. That is $50K every five years.
Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1409
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Rishirishi »

Vayutuvan wrote:One of my Singaporean friends used to tell me the rule in Singapore. One cannot own a car that is older than five years. Cars were ~$50K. Every car owner had to send their 5 year old car for recycling and shell out $50K. That is $50K every five years.
Part of their strategy is to make people use public transport. It saves a lot of road and parking space. Taxis are relatively affordable.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rishirishi wrote:Part of their strategy is to make people use public transport. It saves a lot of road and parking space. Taxis are relatively affordable.
It is a high cost of living country. It is but natural that taxis are relatively affordable.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by nachiket »

Singapore is a tiny country with an excellent public transport and road infrastructure and a high per capita income. Copying ideas from them to apply to the whole of India would be unadvisable. If specific city administrations in India with high population densities wish to copy ideas from them, they can try out at a local level and see if they are popular with their voters. These laws simply cannot be one-size fits all for a large and diverse country like India.

Most city and state governments in India invest nothing in providing basic amenities like public parking structures where they are needed. Every piece of land is sold for commercial development to maximize their profit and line their own pockets. Then if they come around and say "Look! Our vehicular congestion problems are the same as Singapore! Lets solve them by making it unaffordable for people to own cars in the city.", they might get kicked out on their backsides in the next elections.
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Zynda »

Government To Impose Green Tax On Old Vehicles; Proposal Approved By Union Minister Nitin Gadkari
The Union Minister for Road Transport and Highways, Nitin Gadkari, has approved a proposal for the government to levy a 'Green Tax' on old vehicles. The idea is to clean up the environment by phasing out unfit and pollution vehicles. The revenue collected through the green tax will be used to tackle pollution. The proposal in its current form will be sent to all states for consultation, before it is formally notified. The idea is to dissuade people from not using old vehicles, which cause more pollution and motivate them to buy new, less polluting vehicles. Cars which are over 15 years old and are owned by various government departments and PSUs will be de-registered and scrapped. The scrappage policy for government vehicles will come into effect from April 1, 2022.

Coming back to the details about the Green Tax, the proposal says that vehicles older than eight years could be charged green tax at the time of fitness certificate renewal. The amount could be between 10 per cent and 25 per cent of the road tax. In case of personal vehicles, green tax could be levied at the time of renewal of registration certificate after 15 years. The bad news is that the percentage of green tax could go up to 50 per cent of the road tax, when a vehicle is re-registered in highly polluted cities.

The proposal also suggests that the slab of tax will be different depending on fuel used and the type of vehicle as well. Vehicles like hybrids, electric vehicles and ones which use alternate fuels like CNG, Ethanol, LPG etc. are likely to be exempted. Vehicles used for farming purposes such as tractor, harvester, tiller etc. are likely to be exempted as well.

The government says that commercial vehicles, which comprise 5 per cent of the total vehicle fleet, contribute to about 65 to 70 per cent of total vehicle pollution. Similarly, vehicles which were manufactured before 2000, constitute of just 1 per cent of the total fleet but contribute to about 15 per cent of total vehicle pollution. Older vehicles pollute 10 to 25 times more than modern vehicles and that is something that the government wants to address once the Green Tax on old vehicles is implemented.
Edit: Although the above proposal is better than forcing consumers to replace their existing vehicle, it is still absurd to add one more tax. What is the purpose of Fitness Certificate & PUC if they want to penalize further. If anything strengthen or amend PUC+FC requirements so that vehicles meeting older emission norms have to pay extra. Anyways, vehicle owners are already paying absurd amount of taxes for infrastructure conditions which are quite pathetic. I would like to see City Corporations provide good roads so that the wear & tear on my vehicle is less along with conditions where I need not break so often to pass over a big pothole. Further, I think the green tax will be conveniently passed on to consumers by commercial operators. Just like GST on paper was supposed to make items cheaper but has not happened yet because business just did not bother to pass on any savings to consumers.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Aditya_V »

This law is not required and unnecessary burden.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

Including registration fees we already pay upwards of 60% in taxes on cars today. The current FC requirements (having gone through it twice for my 2 vehicles within the last 4 yrs) is a joke ! I can drive to my local RTO having removed the brakes and they wouldn't know. The entire FC process is just another way to badger the motorist and extorting bribes. I went through a tout but i saw vehicles being rejected because of " excess scratches on paint" ! If i have to pay 50% road tax again after 15 yrs, i'll either not buy a new car or i'll buy the cheapest one know i'll have to junk it in few years anyways. Its a real bummer for those who own low mileage, well maintained vehicles which now will either have to be scrapped or pay a heavy tax to renew the registration in the name of "green tax". The ones who will suffer the most are those with commercial vehicles who have to go through this harebrained tax scheme once every 8 yrs !
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by niran »

Budget session ended but not a whisper about approved by Minister sir old vehicle ban. :rotfl:
sajo
BRFite
Posts: 369
Joined: 01 Mar 2019 17:01

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by sajo »

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-news/g ... car-420151
The Indian Government has announced a 5 percent rebate on the purchase of a new car, if the old car has been scrapped under the new vehicle scrappage policy. The rebate, which will be provided by the manufactures, should provide greater incentive for people to junk their older vehicles.

Government incentivises voluntary scrappage of old vehicles with 5 percent rebate
Heavy penalties on vehicles that fail automated tests
Scrappage policy expected to provide boost to Indian auto industry


IMHO, 5 % is too less. There is no way its going to entice me to give up my perfectly working vehicle to arrange for a huge outflow towards a new car. New scams like scrapped on paper to get new car benefits but selling the deregistered car in the fringes of the city or rural areas would flourish.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

It is capital destruction. As long as a vehicle passes inspection they have no reason to tax the owner by doubling the registration fees or forcefully taking it off the road (as in the case of NCR) . All cars are well made today and last much longer than automobiles of the past, so forcing someone to scrap their 10 yr old diesel car or 15 yr old petrol car and buy a new one is really shortsighted . They've made similar mistake by rushing in the BS6 cars and now there's a scam brewing where unsold BS4 cars are being renumbered and sold to unsuspecting customers.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

New auto scrappage policy : Owners can trader, transfer scrapping certificates

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/owne ... d-ministry

This reeks of auto manufacturers lobby at work. I hope the government is not subsidizing this discount voucher at the expense of tax payers because i fully expect enterprising scrap yards to issue fake discount vouchers.
Mukhi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 12 Jul 2010 07:17

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Mukhi »

This is pretty much in line with Amerikkas/Obamas cash for Clunker program. Only difference is, the $3,500 rebate was as much as 20% of the new car purchase price. But most consumer got 10 - 15%.

This program did help auto industry big time. Let’s hope it does the same. I wish the Government had a better incentive, at least 10% of the vehicle purchase price.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

Yes, i lived through the "Cash for clunkers" program which was an epic failure. Much has been written about its failure and the reasons behind it which can easily be searched so i won't link articles, but one of the worst outcomes of that program was taking out perfectly running cars in the middle of a great recession which could have provided affordable transportation to many who had fallen on hard times. The requirements were pretty clearly designed not to remove "clunkers" from the road, but to destroy as many perfectly good used cars as possible as a thinly veiled bailout for the auto industry. Most of the people driving the true clunkers could not afford to buy a brand new car even with the rebate. And as expected It drove up the cost of the remaining used cars, making it even harder for the young and poor to afford cheap transportation to get to interviews/jobs.

Old but safe running cars are good transportation not just for young people but even for the elderly who do not want to take on a new car payment in their 60s or 70s and use their existing cars sparingly. If Gadkari wants to reduce pollution i suggest he go after factories which continue to release highly toxic waste straight into lakes and rivers, or garbage which is running out of landfill and gets dumped in water or new mining licenses destroying whatever little green cover we have .
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Zynda »

The used car market has seen a bonanza in the previous year...
A corona carnama
Bengaluru now has more than 1 crore vehicles; the pandemic accelerated car sales with number of registered vehicles doubling than in previous years
nandakumar
BRFite
Posts: 1638
Joined: 10 May 2010 13:37

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by nandakumar »

Ambar wrote:Yes, i lived through the "Cash for clunkers" program which was an epic failure. Much has been written about its failure and the reasons behind it which can easily be searched so i won't link articles, but one of the worst outcomes of that program was taking out perfectly running cars in the middle of a great recession which could have provided affordable transportation to many who had fallen on hard times. The requirements were pretty clearly designed not to remove "clunkers" from the road, but to destroy as many perfectly good used cars as possible as a thinly veiled bailout for the auto industry. Most of the people driving the true clunkers could not afford to buy a brand new car even with the rebate. And as expected It drove up the cost of the remaining used cars, making it even harder for the young and poor to afford cheap transportation to get to interviews/jobs.

Old but safe running cars are good transportation not just for young people but even for the elderly who do not want to take on a new car payment in their 60s or 70s and use their existing cars sparingly. If Gadkari wants to reduce pollution i suggest he go after factories which continue to release highly toxic waste straight into lakes and rivers, or garbage which is running out of landfill and gets dumped in water or new mining licenses destroying whatever little green cover we have .
My daughter studied in the US during 2009 to 2011. As a research scholar she could only afford a used Honda that had done over 100000 miles. She bought it from a senior and after her Masters sold it to someone else in the campus. She said it was perfectly fine for the limited mobility that she put it to. Said she can't understand this American fetish for changing cars after every few years.
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by darshan »

Repairability of cars have steadily gone down since clash for clunkers and cars have essentially turned into disposable appliances. No win for consumers and environment.

Does India even have a strict enforcement of recollection of used car fluids or an education campaign to not dump these fluids? Time and time I have seen people just dump these fluids in India on grounds.

It's nothing but dreaming with these sort of GoI policies. No ways to enforce any pollution related activities. First show some spine against big polluters. I can't grow green covers so let me resort to other gimmicks.
Jay
BRFite
Posts: 697
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 18:24
Location: Gods Country
Contact:

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Jay »

darshan wrote:Repairability of cars have steadily gone down since clash for clunkers and cars have essentially turned into disposable appliances. No win for consumers and environment.
I have no idea how you equate 'clash for clunkers' as the reason for anti-consumer behavior of companies, and in what world you lived to think CFC did not do it's job which was to spur consumer spending :rotfl:
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Ambar »

"Cash for clunkers" was an abject failure by every yardstick. A good percentage of the 3 billion dollars set aside for the program went to households which would have replaced their cars anyways (without destroying the cars they intended to replace). It front loaded the sales and the fall in sales in subsequent month/years clearly showed that the spur in spending during those 3 months was more to bail out the auto industry than to help the consumers. In the end neither was the industry saved (GM went bellyup, Chrysler too eventually went bankrupt and was absorbed by Fiat and Ford had to be bailed out ) nor did it help already cash strapped , debt laden consumers . Ofcourse it also destroyed a good number of running cars (one of the qualifying criteria was that the car should arrive at the scrap yard on its own steam ) which made used cars more expensive for those looking for cheap, affordable transportation at the peak of recession .

Anyways, coming back to the Indian scrappage policy other than to help the auto manufacturers and ancillary manufacturers, it will do little to reduce pollution or help customers. Several things to consider (a) In India , privately owned/used cars don't clock as many miles as they do in US/EU, so a 15 yr old car may have < 40k kms in many cases (b) You are burdening the middleclass and the elderly by forcing them to give up their mid-2000s car and take on a new loan which many may not qualify. (c) It is capital destruction to scrap a perfectly running car. That capital is better spent elsewhere rather on a new car which just sits under a tarp on the road in most cases.

NCR is a good example why this policy wont make any difference to the environment. The pollution in NCR is just as bad if not worse than what it was 10 yrs ago. The government has little to no leverage going after polluting industries on Ganga and Yamuna river belt or farmers in PJ and HR and western UP who burn stubble, but banning cars older than 15 yrs and thinking it'll make a difference shows lack of understanding and policy short-sightedness.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by nachiket »

Some of the worst polluting vehicles I have ever seen are State transport buses in MH and B.E.S.T. city buses in Mumbai, followed by old poorly maintained trucks and other commercial vehicles. Is the government going to pay itself to replace these decades old buses still plying our roads and spreading their fragrant black diesel smoke all around?

Personal vehicle pollution norms have become stricter and stricter over the past couple of decades but the vehicular pollution in our cities keeps getting worse. That in itself should tell the government that the problem lies elsewhere. But it is much easier to go after middle and upper middle class car owners than deal with the commercial vehicle industry or public transport bodies to solve the real issues.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5461
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Cyrano »

Most State Transport Corps are poorly funded and loss making. They offer affordable connectivity on rural routes to the poor in distant villages thats not profitable. At the same time they lose business to private players who offer better service & comfort to high paying customers. Vehicle pollution is the last thing STCs care about given their precarious finances, and cost of retired employee's pensions.

For city bus services in large cities and metros, their business model again depends on providing mass transit for low paying customers. Those with monthly bus passes pay a very small amount per km travelled. Now they are losing business to Metro Rail services.

When I lived in Bombay in the late 90's they had just the standard Best Bus service (double deckers are my favourite). At that time, Hyderabad City bus transport was offering basic, express semi-luxury and luxury transport buses on major city & suburban routes, with varying ticket prices. Higher options offered better seating, less crowding, A/C and had fewer stops to reduce travel time.

Recently, they have started Airport Liner service from 4 different points with very modern electric buses to Hyd Airport, which is quite a distance from the city. But it seems each electric bus costs about 3 crores. Simply unaffordable to buy a fleet of them and ply on intracity routes.

TRSRTC data sheet:
https://www.tsrtc.telangana.gov.in/profile.php
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by nachiket »

If State and City transport corps. can be given a pass to let their old polluting vehicles keep running because of poor finances, why doesn't that argument apply to private car owners? Someone who is driving a car 15+ years old is likely not flush with cash anyway. It is still likely to be better maintained than the 30 year old BEST bus or commercial truck belching black smoke because the air filter, valves and injectors haven't been cleaned or replaced since Rajiv Gandhi was PM.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5461
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Post by Cyrano »

There is no denying STCs have tens of thousands of old diesel buses that cause high degree of unsightly particulate and gaseous pollution. However, the carrying capacity of a car is 5 adults, buses have about 60 seats, and in peak times, carry easily twice as much, if not more.

So its 5 versus 120. That is 1 bus = 24 cars. If pollution per passenger km is compared (I don't have the data for it), I suspect buses will still come up far ahead. Not to speak of particles released into air due to tyres wearing out, noise pollution and road & parking space congestion.

We are not even talking about lifecycle energy and resources (metals, plastics, oils, paints, rubber, materials in electronics etc.) cost to manufacture, maintain and recycle 1 bus versus 24 cars. Electric vehicles don't change this equation. 1 E-bus will always be way less onerous on the planet than 24 E-cars.

Thats why environmentally conscious European countries are making life hell for cars - its a nightmare to drive around in Paris in a car today, very drastic change since 20 years ago. Road surfaces have been massively reorganised to have dedicated bus & tram lanes, bicycle lanes, larger side walks and greenery, leaving just 2 lanes for cars. Car parking spaces have been replaced by thousands of "e-stations" dotting the city and the suburbs where you can get "pay per use" electric cars, bicycles and scooters. "Urban Mobility" is being completely redefined to favour mass transit and pay per use, and discourage vehicle ownership. Huge investments are being made for this.

This transition is very painful and frustrating for everyone right now, since we are used to the uber convenience of personal cars for decades, make life-style statement etc... but in the medium to long term, the whole world has to follow this model. Its inevitable.

If you look at some of the things Tesla is doing, they seem to have understood this. Driver profile tied to smart phone which unlocks the car, autopilot etc.

Putting millions more cars on the roads is not the future. Especially in India where no matter how many roads you make, they will end up clogged very quickly due to sheer numbers of vehicles people can and want to buy, and we will be back to square one. Some serious thought needs to go into this in India. Its a huge nightmare no one wants to open their eyes to.
Post Reply