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Indian Autos Thread -2

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A_Gupta
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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Jul 2017 16:15

vina wrote:This Gadkari guy seems to be a classic Luddite. Saw a report in today's Al-Hundi where he pompously declared that "We wont allow driverless cars in India as it will lead to job losses" . He claimed that 55 Lakhs (i.e. 5.5 million ) drivers will be needed in India. Think of it. An entire population equivalent to Ireland stuck in a dead end, low productivity job with very limited earning potential and that condemns close to roughly 22 million people (1driver, 3 dependents) to a dead end, poverty ridden existence.

This guy should be in the Congress , along with his perpetuating poverty politics. What will it take for people in India to realise that Productivity == Wealth and Health. Anti Productivity == Condemned to poverty , disease and squalor


Limited earning potential always beats **zero** earning potential.

The US is a prosperous country with automation and AI eating away jobs. In any case, even with all this technology, US labor productivity is stagnant and barely growing. The technology trends of the past few decades seems to help cement in place the divide between haves and have-nots. The result is a politics that elects a Trump.

India is a poor country, the effects of automation and AI will be even worse than in the US.

If productivity is the argument, one should note that so far labor productivity has not improved in the US with these technologies.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Arjun » 25 Jul 2017 17:17

vina wrote:This Gadkari guy seems to be a classic Luddite. Saw a report in today's Al-Hundi where he pompously declared that "We wont allow driverless cars in India as it will lead to job losses" . He claimed that 55 Lakhs (i.e. 5.5 million ) drivers will be needed in India. Think of it. An entire population equivalent to Ireland stuck in a dead end, low productivity job with very limited earning potential and that condemns close to roughly 22 million people (1driver, 3 dependents) to a dead end, poverty ridden existence.

This guy should be in the Congress , along with his perpetuating poverty politics. What will it take for people in India to realise that Productivity == Wealth and Health. Anti Productivity == Condemned to poverty , disease and squalor

I agree..and this at a time when India claims to be wanting to compete with China & the US in shaping the future ! What an idiot !

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby ragupta » 25 Jul 2017 20:44

Arjun wrote:
vina wrote:This Gadkari guy seems to be a classic Luddite. Saw a report in today's Al-Hundi where he pompously declared that "We wont allow driverless cars in India as it will lead to job losses" . He claimed that 55 Lakhs (i.e. 5.5 million ) drivers will be needed in India. Think of it. An entire population equivalent to Ireland stuck in a dead end, low productivity job with very limited earning potential and that condemns close to roughly 22 million people (1driver, 3 dependents) to a dead end, poverty ridden existence.

This guy should be in the Congress , along with his perpetuating poverty politics. What will it take for people in India to realise that Productivity == Wealth and Health. Anti Productivity == Condemned to poverty , disease and squalor

I agree..and this at a time when India claims to be wanting to compete with China & the US in shaping the future ! What an idiot !


First build the infrastructure, that is going to take time, autonomous cars can be security risk as well. Nothing is gained in the short term going for driverless car. First India navigation system needs to be proven and solid and then it can be enrolled. yes technology adoption should not be prevented but everything need not be adopted blindly.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Suraj » 25 Jul 2017 20:54

It's important to separate political messages from technical ones . Gadkari has been an excellent minister of his portfolio so far . He understands what needs to be done, and is doing it . However he is also a politician . He needs to speak in the voice of a large number of people who use the roads he builds . Its pointless of him to talk about AI and CV .

As the Humor thread showed recently, for most, even in the press, that stands for Air India and curriculum vitae, not artificial intelligence and computer vision . Is he supposed to explain that to listeners with that little base knowledge of the field ? No, he speaks at their level , not to an audience with BRF level knowledge .

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby sankum » 25 Jul 2017 21:05

1.5 lakh people are dying every year on Indian roads and growing 10% each year. Driverless car may be 10-15 years away but can cut this death toll to less than 10%.

Private cars can go of roads and replaced by 10% driverless cars leading to less congestion and economic benefits.

It is just like opposing computerization and living in stone age for just playing to uneducated gallery.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Bart S » 26 Jul 2017 01:17

ragupta wrote:
Arjun wrote:I agree..and this at a time when India claims to be wanting to compete with China & the US in shaping the future ! What an idiot !


First build the infrastructure, that is going to take time, autonomous cars can be security risk as well. Nothing is gained in the short term going for driverless car. First India navigation system needs to be proven and solid and then it can be enrolled. yes technology adoption should not be prevented but everything need not be adopted blindly.


Thats fine, all that your logic justifies is the govt not mandating driverless cars. However there is no need to ban it or stop innovation for flimsy reasons, that will set us back again and make us play catch up.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Kashi » 26 Jul 2017 06:35

sankum wrote:1.5 lakh people are dying every year on Indian roads and growing 10% each year. Driverless car may be 10-15 years away but can cut this death toll to less than 10%.

Private cars can go of roads and replaced by 10% driverless cars leading to less congestion and economic benefits.


Where do you get these figures from? Could you provide more explanation? Any sources?

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby niran » 26 Jul 2017 10:55

vina wrote:This Gadkari guy seems to be a classic Luddite. Saw a report in today's Al-Hundi where he pompously declared that "We wont allow driverless cars in India as it will lead to job losses" . He claimed that 55 Lakhs (i.e. 5.5 million ) drivers will be needed in India. Think of it. An entire population equivalent to Ireland stuck in a dead end, low productivity job with very limited earning potential and that condemns close to roughly 22 million people (1driver, 3 dependents) to a dead end, poverty ridden existence.

This guy should be in the Congress , along with his perpetuating poverty politics. What will it take for people in India to realise that Productivity == Wealth and Health. Anti Productivity == Condemned to poverty , disease and squalor

saar, it is Hundi, in reality he said "current stage is ill advisable on Indian roads hence won't allow it period. but will be with better tech and better Indian conditions."
IMVVHO it is correct, see i see folks on spiffy new Jamuna Expressway driving with just 1-2 meter gap between vehicle at 140kmph, say the one ahead brakes to slow down negotiating a bend will the one behind have time to react? they say "i going to overtake" idiot to overtake you don't need to lick the arse stay back look at the side mirror change lane then speedup to overtake will get you stares as if you are a village bumpkin coaching a F1 mastero driving. Indians are not ready for AI cars. period

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby vera_k » 28 Jul 2017 21:05

^^
To solve this, regular cars can be banned from the Jamuna Expressway, and only AI cars allowed. It will eliminate accidents for the most part. AI cars can drive with 1-2 meter gap without causing accidents.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Zynda » 28 Jul 2017 21:15

The new product Tata Nexon is receiving rave reviews. Apparently, the diesel engine is quite a spirited performer (the petrol not so much...) and it is capable of giving Ecosport and Brezza a competitive ride. Even the refinement levels are pretty good...apparently Tatas listened to customer feedback from Tigor/Tiago and implemented them in the Nexon. But I could not find any references to upcoming Indian auto crash norms. The crash norms are supposed to go online from Oct 2018. All consumer vehicles manufactured from that date onwards needs to comply...unless the auto industry lobby has managed to delay the introduction date or revoke the norms entirely. It doesn't make sense for Tatas to come up with a newer crash norms compliant BIW/structure design just for 2018 onwards...I find no mention of the above in any of the Nexon's safety features.

Hopefully, Nexon will be a choice for consumers. We need more healthy players rather than just MSIL, Hyundai...

Tata needs a hit badly...Tiago/Tigor generated a lot of hype during launch but did not strike well with consumers. Mainly, the reason was underpowered engines and subpar cabin refinements. Apparently, both of these have addressed in the Nexon...

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 30 Jul 2017 14:29

Zynda wrote:Tata needs a hit badly...Tiago/Tigor generated a lot of hype during launch but did not strike well with consumers. Mainly, the reason was underpowered engines and subpar cabin refinements. Apparently, both of these have addressed in the Nexon...

Tata HEXA is a hit i hear, with waiting period of 3 months for the auto version

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 03 Aug 2017 06:32

vera_k wrote:^^
To solve this, regular cars can be banned from the Jamuna Expressway, and only AI cars allowed. It will eliminate accidents for the most part. AI cars can drive with 1-2 meter gap without causing accidents.

yeah! just like to drink a glass of milk a man buys a cow builds a cowshed, simple behavioral change like ego management will suffice.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 04 Aug 2017 12:36

Zynda wrote:Tata needs a hit badly...Tiago/Tigor generated a lot of hype during launch but did not strike well with consumers. Mainly, the reason was underpowered engines and subpar cabin refinements. Apparently, both of these have addressed in the Nexon...



Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun
2016 2016 2016 2016 2016 2016 2017 2017 2017 2017 2017 2017

Tata Tiago 5114 4527 4557 6108 6008 4013 5399 5365 4619 4115 4901 5438
Tata Tigor 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3011 3638 2344 2163
Tata Hexa 0 0 0 0 0 0 1498 1026 940 1213 727 550

Courtesy : autoportal.com

I won't pronounce Tiago a flop, consistently doing 5K. Though Tigor is not selling that much. But compared to Amaze it is okayish. Hexa started well but now the sales are a bit slow.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby vera_k » 04 Aug 2017 13:14

niran wrote:yeah! just like to drink a glass of milk a man buys a cow builds a cowshed, simple behavioral change like ego management will suffice.


Not the right analogy. Something like 90% of highway capacity available today is wasted because humans cannot drive as well as machines can. Behavior change in humans alone will not be sufficient to benefit from this new technology.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 16 Aug 2017 01:24

Dare I say: "So it begins"

Indian Govt invites bid for 10000 electric cars.

State-owned Energy Efficiency Services Ltd (EESL) has invited global bids for 10,000 electric sedans that will run up to 150 km on a single charge, for use by government departments, taking a big step to achieve power minister Piyush Goyal’s dream of having only electric cars on Indian streets by 2030.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 16 Aug 2017 01:30

Interview with Dr Prabhakar Patil, ex CEO of LG-Chem (The highest profile builder of lithium ion batteries after Tesla/Panasonic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNBz8NvMRf0

On what it would take to build a lithium ion Gigafactory in India to achieve economics of scale, his answer was that it would take approx 2.5Gwh of demand for a reputed builder to build a factory in India. That comes up to around 50,000 electric cars per year with a battery pack of 50 kwh. Few other things that he mentioned that was good information were:

1. 65% of the cost of lithium ion batteries is materials.
2. Labor cost is only 7%
3. The only thing you save is shipping costs (which is a big deal) by building a local factory.
4. Lithium ion battery recycle is only done to get back cobalt. Otherwise, doesn't make much sense. But Lithium is not a harmful chemical and there is no harm in dumping into landfill.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 11 Sep 2017 09:52

http://www.financialexpress.com/auto/ca ... on/849093/

Tata Tiago EV: Tata’s first electric car with 100 km range showcased, to launch in India soon

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 12 Sep 2017 22:25

https://www.team-bhp.com/news/scoop-tat ... coimbatore

Scoop! Tata Nano electric spotted testing in Coimbatore

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 12 Sep 2017 23:44

if they can get a i10 or polo sized car with a rafale style cockpit, no compromise on sheet metal/safety and 250km range it will command a market.
but living in apartments it will need a sea change to provide charging outlets in each spot, with meters, prevent leeching etc.

not as easy sell as khan with gleaming rows of free chargers in each open air lot, and everyone having a parking driveway or garage

lot of individual homes here park cars on street or just inside gate. thieves could steal wires etc.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Gus » 13 Sep 2017 01:59

In massa, the problem is to up from regular 110-120 V to 440V ?

we are already running 220-240 no? Plus with smaller battery pack (I am assuming, because of smaller car size and less demanding acceleration etc, compared to massa) - would it be enough to charge with 240V itself? In that case, we would only need a metering system at outlet.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 13 Sep 2017 05:55

Gus wrote:In massa, the problem is to up from regular 110-120 V to 440V ?

we are already running 220-240 no? Plus with smaller battery pack (I am assuming, because of smaller car size and less demanding acceleration etc, compared to massa) - would it be enough to charge with 240V itself? In that case, we would only need a metering system at outlet.


In the US too, electric cloth dryers run on 220 volts. It is not just volts that matter though. For a given voltage, higher the amps, higher the power. High amps need thick conductor. A typical 220v dryer outlet in US can handle upto 30 amps. But for safety, you only use 24 amp car chargers. This gives you approx 4 kw of power. Which will give you 40kwh for 10 hours overnight charge.

Good enough for 250 km of range. I don't know how many amps does a typical indian house is wired for though. This would depend on the electric panel and connection to power company.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 13 Sep 2017 06:20

Singha wrote:if they can get a i10 or polo sized car with a rafale style cockpit, no compromise on sheet metal/safety and 250km range it will command a market.
but living in apartments it will need a sea change to provide charging outlets in each spot, with meters, prevent leeching etc.

not as easy sell as khan with gleaming rows of free chargers in each open air lot, and everyone having a parking driveway or garage

lot of individual homes here park cars on street or just inside gate. thieves could steal wires etc.


One needs a 40 kwh battery for 250 km. The market price for large scale buyer is around $150 per kwh. So just the batteries will cost Rs 3,60,000. There is really no reason why we cant have a rs 7.5 lakh priced hatchback in India that gives 250 km range.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 13 Sep 2017 09:05

guru.shetty wrote:I don't know how many amps does a typical indian house is wired for though. This would depend on the electric panel and connection to power company.


In Delhi, BSES sanctioned load for domestic consumption starts from 1.3 KW and goes all the way till 10KW. They increase the sanctioned load (and security deposit) automatically when the consumer breaches it. Beyond 10KW you need a commercial connection which means separate line. So the infra is rated for 10KW but usually the consumption is around 5KW for a small house in summers. So it works with everyone drawing around 22 amps.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby asgkhan » 13 Sep 2017 15:00

Singha wrote:if they can get a i10 or polo sized car with a rafale style cockpit, no compromise on sheet metal/safety and 250km range it will command a market.
but living in apartments it will need a sea change to provide charging outlets in each spot, with meters, prevent leeching etc.

not as easy sell as khan with gleaming rows of free chargers in each open air lot, and everyone having a parking driveway or garage

lot of individual homes here park cars on street or just inside gate. thieves could steal wires etc.


Simple solution is to make the batteries removable.

* Park the car on the road, end of day.
* Pop the hood.
* Remove the batteries.
* Put it on a special charging kit @ home.
* Charge it overnight.
* Reverse the process during start of day.

Voila, it works. (caveat, as long as the batteries are not too heavy).

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2017 15:16

batteries are heavy. a woman could not easily remove and move around a typical car battery. and these Li-ion type EV batteries are much bigger. even if one breaks them into cells, still its a lot of work to move them around.

http://images.hgmsites.net/hug/chevrole ... 5141_h.jpg

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Javee » 15 Sep 2017 11:07

Maruti Suzuki is opening a new plant in Gujarat to manufacture Li-Ion batteries. I think we can expect a whole range of electric cars by 2020 from Maruti and with their heft in marker, adoption will skyrocket.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 15 Sep 2017 12:50

guru.shetty wrote:One needs a 40 kwh battery for 250 km. The market price for large scale buyer is around $150 per kwh. So just the batteries will cost Rs 3,60,000. There is really no reason why we cant have a rs 7.5 lakh priced hatchback in India that gives 250 km range.


Assuming 100 Km daily travel., that is some 15 Kwh consumption., at 15 amps 240 V it will take some 3-4 hours of charging time. Basically it can be charged overnight.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nash » 15 Sep 2017 14:40

It is not limited Battery:

Maruti will make electric cars in Gujarat

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nash » 15 Sep 2017 15:10

Bajaj To Launch Electric Vehicle Range By 2020
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/bajaj-to-lau ... 20-1750392

One thing we can be sure of that there will be wave of EVs before 2020 and beyond.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 15 Sep 2017 20:55

100km is not daily travel for a personal car in india.
Avg will be no more than 20km across our 100 largest cities

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 15 Sep 2017 23:31

Distance-wise perhaps but given the stopngo nature of traffic, you will need good range.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 15 Sep 2017 23:55

Prasad wrote:Distance-wise perhaps but given the stopngo nature of traffic, you will need good range.


Though it is counter intuitive, electric cars generally get better range in city than in highways. All the electric cars in the US have better EPA rated city range compared to highways. This is mainly because of battery recharge while braking.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 16 Sep 2017 01:56

Singha wrote:100km is not daily travel for a personal car in india.
Avg will be no more than 20km across our 100 largest cities


That means a 25 KwH battery will be just fine., for the daily avg of 20 km distance travelled., the charge will last 5-7 days and on a DC fast charger will charge up in 30 mins., or with 5-15 amp 240 V 7-3 hours.

Basically., every friday people will be charging their cars up over night for next week commutes.

A 25 KwH will weigh some 100 Kgs., and can be in 5 banks of 5 KwH capacity each weighing some 20 Kgs. A simple model will be actually bank it in 10 modules each weighing 10 Kgs. Each module of 2.5 KwH (or 20 Km) capacity which can be swapped out. Basically swap out a module from one side and put in a new fully charged module on the other side.

At that., the battery pack will cost Rs. 2 lakh. With electric car and half of the components gone., a decent 25 KwH electric car will be from 7.5 to 15 lakhs.

To incentivize., throw in first 10,000 Km free charging and everybody will abandon their gas vehicles.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby guru.shetty » 16 Sep 2017 03:50

These are some of the trigger points for people to bite the bullet and go electric

1. Faster commute to work compared to gas cars. In many US states you get to drive in faster lanes if you have electric. Unlikely to happen in India, unless court imposes odd even formula and makes an exception to electrics.
2. Free charging at work. Many US employers have charging stations at work for electrics. The charging providers have smart queue systems for you to wait for your turn if there are more cars than charging stations.
3. Monthly lease costs of electrics equivalent to or less than your fuel costs for gas car. This is true in many US states now because of tax credits and carbon taxes. In India, since petrol prices are much higher than US, this may be a goood trigger. But India unlikely to provide big tax credits.
4. Unless it is a tesla, people prefer to lease than buy. Electric cars depreciate a lot faster as battery technology is improving at the rates of computers and if the manufacturer hasn't done a good job with thermal management of batteries. This will be challenge in India because of high summer temperatures. So good leasing is needed to remove bad battery risks.

The good thing is policy makers in India are already aware of all the above things. So they are targeting city taxis and e-ricks and e-buses first. They are starting with auctions to buy 10,000 cars, followed by 1 lakh e-ricks and then 10,000 e-buses within next few months.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2017 07:12

Even many small cars have auto engine off and restart for tradfic stops these days like nissan micra

A good plan needs to be in place how to prevent ppl from just throwing ev batts into the nearest garbage dump knowing our law abiding junta esp bus and taxi drivers. Make it 1:1 mustto hand in old pack in as is condition to buy new pack

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby chetak » 16 Sep 2017 10:09

Automobile Expo 2017` on Sep 15th, 16th & 17th at the at White Petals in the Bangalore Palace Grounds. Timing 1000 - 1700, entry free.

has anyone been??

Is it worth a look??.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 16 Sep 2017 11:35

Singha wrote:Even many small cars have auto engine off and restart for tradfic stops these days like nissan micra

A good plan needs to be in place how to prevent ppl from just throwing ev batts into the nearest garbage dump knowing our law abiding junta esp bus and taxi drivers. Make it 1:1 mustto hand in old pack in as is condition to buy new pack


Nobody throws the lead acid batteries used in vehicles because it fetches a discount on new batteries. Same can be done for lithium ion batteries of EVs.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Sep 2017 11:36

Guys, the new safety crash norms are applicable for new models launched after 1 October 2017, is it apllicable to facelifts? I hope so, we will suddenly see a lot Hatchbacks not being launched by the Market leaders who will continue thier products till 2020.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 17 Sep 2017 08:33

Singha wrote:Even many small cars have auto engine off and restart for tradfic stops these days like nissan micra

A good plan needs to be in place how to prevent ppl from just throwing ev batts into the nearest garbage dump knowing our law abiding junta esp bus and taxi drivers. Make it 1:1 mustto hand in old pack in as is condition to buy new pack


All the cars get completely recycled! The wheels get recycled! The tires get shredded and the rubber recycled. The body also gets recycled. There are few items like car seats which are also getting recycled nowadays. Including the seat coverings.

Lithium batteries are currently recycled for their nickel and cobalt.

In fact lithium is so much abundant that it is not recycled at all., think it this way., for every 100% rise in lithium prices., the corresponding rise in the battery cost is 1.5%. That is if today the lithium prices go 3x., the battery cost will go up by 3% !

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 18 Sep 2017 06:56

disha wrote:
Singha wrote:100km is not daily travel for a personal car in india.
Avg will be no more than 20km across our 100 largest cities


That means a 25 KwH battery will be just fine., for the daily avg of 20 km distance travelled., the charge will last 5-7 days and on a DC fast charger will charge up in 30 mins., or with 5-15 amp 240 V 7-3 hours.

Basically., every friday people will be charging their cars up over night for next week commutes.

A 25 KwH will weigh some 100 Kgs., and can be in 5 banks of 5 KwH capacity each weighing some 20 Kgs. A simple model will be actually bank it in 10 modules each weighing 10 Kgs. Each module of 2.5 KwH (or 20 Km) capacity which can be swapped out. Basically swap out a module from one side and put in a new fully charged module on the other side.

At that., the battery pack will cost Rs. 2 lakh. With electric car and half of the components gone., a decent 25 KwH electric car will be from 7.5 to 15 lakhs.

To incentivize., throw in first 10,000 Km free charging and everybody will abandon their gas vehicles.

what about those fancy audio video systems or that state of art anti-theft alarm system or those hitech system diagnostics? all of it uses current even if vehicle is turned off. the reason battery life has come down to 2.8 years from 3-5 years despite advance battery tech. pure EV is looooooooooong way away. period.


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