Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Autos Thread -2

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2017 07:47

I think for India with its lack of space and arrangements to charge cars in apartments, a hybrid car with a small 800-1000cc engine and a modest battery pack that the engine tops up, with auto on-off at idling will go a long way to improve FE and reduce petrol burn ? some cos also have tech that can idle a few cylinders until needed.

think a cheap prius. this will get people used to EV until the move to pure EV later.

we need solutions that can
1) help long haul truck traffic reduce diesel burn
2) work in stop-go slow moving city traffic with high reliability and deal with heat, dust, mud and rain

these may not be the solutions on the table from bideshi merchants.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 18 Sep 2017 11:02

^^ niran sir., are you saying you are not going to buy your iPhonewa because its batteries last for 2.8 years instead of the advertised 3 years because of the fancy apps you run on your iPhonewa? Well ppl will run gizmos always on their "toys"., well bigger toys bigger gizmos. It is their battery! Why worry saar if they run out of Juice - have curry!

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5386
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 18 Sep 2017 11:18

disha wrote:^^ niran sir., are you saying you are not going to buy your iPhonewa because its batteries last for 2.8 years instead of the advertised 3 years because of the fancy apps you run on your iPhonewa? Well ppl will run gizmos always on their "toys"., well bigger toys bigger gizmos. It is their battery! Why worry saar if they run out of Juice - have curry!

arrey, no saar, i meant 25KWh battery won't be enough for for a 20km commute and weekend charging system. for better perspective i own a spiffy spanking new accord hybrid, batteries alone weigh 200 kgs the size of rear seat, fully charged, it runs max 5km when petrol engine kick in to take over the batteries without ac/radio lights or other fancy electric consuming gizmos, it is under 3 km with ac on. currently EV cars are good for shopping errands in cities onree, in rainy condition or in muddy condition where you need to rev the engines current batteries will drain out within 20 seconds as opposed to 20km.

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 803
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 18 Sep 2017 13:22

Currently the only electric cars available in India are Mahindra e2o plus and Mahindra E Verito. Both have claimed ranges of more than 100 KM per charge. e2o comes in two versions with 110 and 140 Km per charge range. Tata is launching electric versions of Tiago and Nano, both with around 100 Km range. Maruti is going to introduce electric cars as well. Even if the electric cars provide 70% of the claimed range, 70-80 Km per day is sufficient for most of the people to commute between home and office in metros/tier 1 cities. In another 5-10 years, Indian car scene is going to be very interesting.

A lot is happening on Internal combustion engine side as well. Camless engines are being developed where valve actuation is controlled electronically and individually. Advantages are many. Activation/deactivation of individual cylinders in any manner, more power/torque/efficiency from precise control of valve, multi-fuel capability, 2/4 stroke in the same engine. Basically the engine becomes PROGRAMMABLE via software.

Also, following is a novel concept in hybrid cars. Two micro turbines (similar to ones powering RC models) charging the battery which then runs the electric motors. The turbines are capable of powering the four electric motors all by themselves as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_C-X75

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5386
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 18 Sep 2017 13:43

^^^ that is what am saying current bijjili car is in Ford model T level by the time it becomes year 2017 combustion engine level i will dead and long gone

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6551
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 18 Sep 2017 13:51

Tesla model s 65kwh version has a stated range of 200 odd miles ~ 300km. If you do half that size, you can still do 150km = 1 week's office commute in most cities. Can't do outstation trips with such a range though but almost all 2nd cars can be replaced by this model easily. Same with first car small car crowd.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6551
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 18 Sep 2017 13:52

Don't even need a hybrid version for that. Or add in a two cylinder engine for regen if you want.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 19 Sep 2017 01:11

niran wrote:arrey, no saar, i meant 25KWh battery won't be enough for for a 20km commute and weekend charging system. for better perspective i own a spiffy spanking new accord hybrid, batteries alone weigh 200 kgs the size of rear seat, fully charged, it runs max 5km when petrol engine kick in to take over the batteries without ac/radio lights or other fancy electric consuming gizmos, it is under 3 km with ac on.


Arrey Saar - you just proved my point. The battery capacity on Honda accord is 1.3 KwH and it is used on a drivetrain meant for gasoline engines. Like yoking a Kabini core to a bullock cart.

So your 1.3 KwH gives you 2.5 - 5 Km range while yoked to all the dead weight from the gas engine and the gearbox meant for a gas engine!

Also my calculations are for electric cars running on roads as smooth as Hemamalini's cheeks and not like Rabri Devi's and not tugging a bullock cart while having lantern's for head lamps!

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 19 Sep 2017 01:21

Prasad wrote:Tesla model s 65kwh version has a stated range of 200 odd miles ~ 300km. If you do half that size, you can still do 150km = 1 week's office commute in most cities. Can't do outstation trips with such a range though but almost all 2nd cars can be replaced by this model easily. Same with first car small car crowd.


Minor correction above - 60 KwH has a stated range of 218 miles or @ 350 Km. So a 30 KwH will give you 175 Km.

A 30 KwH fast super charge will take 10-15 mins. A 40 A/240 V will give you full charge in 3 hours. In fact a great model will be have every district HQ set up a 2 charging complexes near the highway (one for each way) with clean rest rooms and restaurants and FREE super charging for 1 hour and normal rates for next 2 hours with Solar panels and other alternatives to provide the energy.

Basically the district will end up making money on the charging services. And when customers realize that they are cutting their gas bills in half, they will change their habits rapidly.

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5386
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby niran » 19 Sep 2017 06:54

disha wrote:Also my calculations are for electric cars running on roads as smooth as Hemamalini's cheeks and not like Rabri Devi's and not tugging a bullock cart while having lantern's for head lamps!

sigh! i wish every road trip were on Hema's cheek and not on Rabri's. :D :D

nash
BRFite
Posts: 661
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nash » 29 Sep 2017 22:44

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/k7gDLb ... o-EES.html

Tata Motors wins 10000 E- vehicles order. Will it be NANO I don't think so may be Indica

vipins
BRFite
Posts: 420
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 17:46

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby vipins » 30 Sep 2017 02:19

nash wrote:http://www.livemint.com/Industry/k7gDLb5gjR3OTfuuCivjGI/Tata-Motors-wins-bid-to-sell-10000-electric-vehicles-to-EES.html

Tata Motors wins 10000 E- vehicles order. Will it be NANO I don't think so may be Indica


Link
Our sister magazine Autocar Professional learns the electric vehicle will most likely be an electric Tigor sedan. Recently, Tata Motors revealed an EV variant of the Tiago, the hatchback iteration of the Tigor, in concept form. Using a liquid cooled 85kW electric motor, the hatch develops 200Nm of torque and Tata claims a range of around 100 km.

Tata Motors quoted the lowest price of Rs 10.16 lakh (exclusive of GST) in the competitive bidding. The vehicle will be provided to EESL for Rs 11.2 lakh (inclusive of GST) and with comprehensive five-year warranty. This is claimed to be 25 percent below the current retail price of a similar electric car with 3-year warranty.

VishalJ
BRFite
Posts: 930
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 06:40
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby VishalJ » 30 Sep 2017 22:35

Chinese Automaker SAIC will be launching chinese automobiles in India with a MG badge.

https://www.rushlane.com/new-land-rover ... 08097.html

Checkout the british men from this "UK based automaker"

Image

Image

VishalJ
BRFite
Posts: 930
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 06:40
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby VishalJ » 03 Oct 2017 18:38


Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 980
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Rishirishi » 04 Oct 2017 04:23

disha wrote:
niran wrote:arrey, no saar, i meant 25KWh battery won't be enough for for a 20km commute and weekend charging system. for better perspective i own a spiffy spanking new accord hybrid, batteries alone weigh 200 kgs the size of rear seat, fully charged, it runs max 5km when petrol engine kick in to take over the batteries without ac/radio lights or other fancy electric consuming gizmos, it is under 3 km with ac on.


Arrey Saar - you just proved my point. The battery capacity on Honda accord is 1.3 KwH and it is used on a drivetrain meant for gasoline engines. Like yoking a Kabini core to a bullock cart.

So your 1.3 KwH gives you 2.5 - 5 Km range while yoked to all the dead weight from the gas engine and the gearbox meant for a gas engine!

Also my calculations are for electric cars running on roads as smooth as Hemamalini's cheeks and not like Rabri Devi's and not tugging a bullock cart while having lantern's for head lamps!



Take Nissan leaf (the size of Indica, but much more modern). a 22kwh battery manages between 100 and 150 km (depending on hills, drive and use of heater/AC). The battery used to cost about about 400 USD per Kwh. But it is peculated to have come down to 150Kwh. And further reduction to 100 dollar mark is expected. Now let us take 125dollars per Kwh. With a 50 Kwh battery one would get a decent 250Km range.

The cost of battery would be 6250 Dollars. or approx 3Lacs. For this price you get a car that can do 250Km for about RS 500. or about Rs 2 per km.

A petrol car does about 14km per liter (rs 70). that is about Rs 5 per km. Hence you save Rs 3 per km.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 04 Oct 2017 06:25

^^ Thanks for the calculations., a 50 KwH battery will give you 200 miles or 320 Km. Including A/C and up and down hills and breaking.

In a nutshell - the cost of running an electric car on a daily basis will be 1/3rd that of a petrol car. Minus the oil change.

It will get only better from here., since by 2030 the cost of the batteries will be $75 per KwH.

negi
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 12894
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Trying to mellow down :)

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 08 Oct 2017 16:09

Electric cars are better in every way except "usability" :) ; enough charging points, availability of reliable power supply and then being able to drive through at least 6-12 inches of water without going kaput are must haves before anyone can even think about buying one . At most I see them as second/third vehicles in a household for grocery shopping. SV execs are buying them for most of them are sheep , with front parking rows in every tech giant reserved for green cars this movement is not organic but gaining traction as it is being incentivised aside from peer pressure.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 08 Oct 2017 23:01

Negi'Saar you are very very far away from truth. Even in India.

Growth in electricity consumption in India is leaps and bounds and India is able to generate that much as well. There are few local distribution spots., but that is more of exception than reality.

The batteries are hermetically sealed against water vapor. So even if the batteries are housed at the bottom of the vehicle a.la Tesla and you are swimming through bengaluru, kerala's open water channels a.la venice., all the batteries will end up doing will be discharging faster in the worst case. There are several videos on internet on people putting batteries in salt water.

Whichever way EV is incentivized., already @600k EVs are on the road. In fact by 2020., there will be 3 million EVs on the road. So it is not "gaining traction as it is being incentivized aside from peer pressure"., people are now opting for EVs.

And guess what., I have a "gas station" in my home. After my EV purchase., I do get a sticker shock whenever I pass through a gas station! EV does save me time and money.

negi
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 12894
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Trying to mellow down :)

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby negi » 08 Oct 2017 23:41

^ Sir I live here and know the conditions and more importantly things on ground.

As for sealing battery it does not mean anything , system has to be water proof in totality selective water proofing of a componentb doesn't mean a thing.

Here as per Tesla forums itself they don't suggest you to drive in water

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ter.62053/

As per Tesla PR itself

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/t ... ated-45485

A SUV priced at that price point which cannot wade through water doesn't deserve to be called a SUV period ; a 12 Lakh INR Mahindra thar with a 30k INR schnorkel will wade through even 3-4 foot deep water , a 30 lakh fortuner will go anywhere whereas Teslas won't last a rainy day in Mumbai or Bangalore, you should google up for pictures of electronic city in Bangalore from last week , big tempo travelers were submerged in water here.

Now let us talk viability a 20k USD Toyota corrolla in the USA retails in India for 20 lakh INR that is straight 40% hike for a inferior grade model. G wagon goes for 2.15 crore , it retails at 140k USD in USA very similar to Model X's cost so you can tell what kind of costs will a Model X will be available to Indians , a 2 crore SUV without serious offroading capability.

Tesla makes gold plated products if and when they come to India they will be prohibitively expensive , now coming to my comment it was correct because other electric vehicle manufactures be it Lithium from Mahindra or such offerings don't have same level of water protection as Tesla , Tesla obviously has poured money into this problem but it is not enough not yet. No one in India who can buy just '1' car will buy an electric car and same is the case in the USA too , there will be a minority that will be an exception but that's true for any such trend.

Only when electric cars will match ICE powered cars in terms of usability and price they can be considered as part of the conversation, otherwise they will be same to the automobile world what solar and wind are to electric power generation i.e. complimentary to the system not 'reliable' enough to provide the base load.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 09 Oct 2017 00:11

Sir'ji you are talking one specific car maker based on comments from a forum. GM Bolt EV does drive through 30 cm of water. There are videos of that.

And I have driven in flooded roads. It does not fry electricals or the battery of the said road. Of course., driving through flooded waters is always dangerous ICE or no-ICE. 20 lakh or 2 crore.

Nobody is asking that Indians buy Tesla only. Tata/Mahindra and others can make EV for Indian conditions. I have to point out that by 2020., it will be the case in India. It is already the case in US.

*It is interesting that the moment EVs are mentioned., the talk is of Tesla. Tesla is at the higher range of EVs - with model 3 to model s and model x - it is competing with Beemers, Mercs and Lexus'es. EVs also have Bolts and Leafs and Fiat 500e's as well.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 09 Oct 2017 08:42

Here are videos of tesla's driving through water., negi saar your only argument against EVs compared to ICE vehicle (ability to drive through water) is non-starter!


neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 803
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 09 Oct 2017 09:38

Neither EV nor ICE are meant for water fording. Regarding normal mansoon operations, we have erikshas merrily operating 24X7/365 days without any problems. Also ICE vehicles fording capability is overrated (not talking about SUVs but normal city cars). Air intake is at grill level, 2-3 feet above ground, exhaust is even below that. ECU is slightly above air intake behind dash.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 6032
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby disha » 09 Oct 2017 12:27

^^ Precisely.

Cars are meant to be used as cars & localized to conditions where it will be used., not as boats


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests