Indian Autos Thread -2

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 27 Oct 2017 16:18

Aditya_V wrote:Truth is looking at the way Indians love the Ciaz, Baleno and New Dzire, only VFM pricing , Discounts, delivery on 5 star hotel and Mine bigger than Higher milage from MID which shows 30% greater milage than actuals is more important than safety and reality.

Look at how many actually bring up safety while buying cars and you'll know how effed our car market is. Why do we have cars that offer 'driver side airbags only' versions still? With abs and esp optional in the highest versions in some and not at all in others? :)

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby JayS » 27 Oct 2017 16:59

TKiran wrote:^^^^while not trying to side with Maruti Suzuki, your observation has been totally wrong, as I was very closely associated with automotive services business, the QUALITY (I don't want to give a lecture on quality now, it's complete quality) is the reason for Maruti Suzuki success.

All the other automobiles are way inferior to Maruti Suzuki when it comes to quality. All the other factors you mentioned are incidental. Anyone who owned Maruti Suzuki would not like even to try something else, and when they get into pocket pinching service issues with other brands, I have personally witnessed taking huge losses in selling the car and coming back to Maruti Suzuki.

The only other brand that comes close to Maruti Suzuki is Toyota (still I see Maruti Suzuki's commitment to quality is atleast twice that of Toyota)

Just reflecting what I hear as main reason many people (friends, relatives, acquaintances) quote for preferring Maruti, when I ask them - better servicing. Majority of them couldn't differentiate head from tail in terms of technology or manufacturing quality. Fuel cost and servicing is their main experience. Comfort and safety are of coarse secondary.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Raveen » 27 Oct 2017 17:43

TKiran wrote:^^^^while not trying to side with Maruti Suzuki, your observation has been totally wrong, as I was very closely associated with automotive services business, the QUALITY (I don't want to give a lecture on quality now, it's complete quality) is the reason for Maruti Suzuki success.

All the other automobiles are way inferior to Maruti Suzuki when it comes to quality. All the other factors you mentioned are incidental. Anyone who owned Maruti Suzuki would not like even to try something else, and when they get into pocket pinching service issues with other brands, I have personally witnessed taking huge losses in selling the car and coming back to Maruti Suzuki.

The only other brand that comes close to Maruti Suzuki is Toyota (still I see Maruti Suzuki's commitment to quality is atleast twice that of Toyota)



Lol
You might want to alert the international media - suzuki has better quality than all the European, American, and Japanese brands other than maybe Toyota?
That's just made up jib eris

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby JayS » 27 Oct 2017 17:50

Raveen wrote:
TKiran wrote:^^^^while not trying to side with Maruti Suzuki, your observation has been totally wrong, as I was very closely associated with automotive services business, the QUALITY (I don't want to give a lecture on quality now, it's complete quality) is the reason for Maruti Suzuki success.

All the other automobiles are way inferior to Maruti Suzuki when it comes to quality. All the other factors you mentioned are incidental. Anyone who owned Maruti Suzuki would not like even to try something else, and when they get into pocket pinching service issues with other brands, I have personally witnessed taking huge losses in selling the car and coming back to Maruti Suzuki.

The only other brand that comes close to Maruti Suzuki is Toyota (still I see Maruti Suzuki's commitment to quality is atleast twice that of Toyota)



Lol
You might want to alert the international media - suzuki has better quality than all the European, American, and Japanese brands other than maybe Toyota?
That's just made up jib eris

Yeah. That bit was too much. Toyota is benchmark for quality and maintainability in the world. I never heard before such thing about Suzuki ever.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby TKiran » 27 Oct 2017 18:24

If you ever get a chance see underbody of cars in 2post lifts, a 10 year old car run around 100000km, of Maruti Suzuki car of any name and a 2 year old car of any other brand of comparable size, run more than 20000km.

Absolutely no match. (You don't need to be an expert in automotive field, just the plain sight is sufficient, better still, talk to the owners of those two cars for feedback)

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Raveen » 27 Oct 2017 19:10

TKiran wrote:If you ever get a chance see underbody of cars in 2post lifts, a 10 year old car run around 100000km, of Maruti Suzuki car of any name and a 2 year old car of any other brand of comparable size, run more than 20000km.

Absolutely no match. (You don't need to be an expert in automotive field, just the plain sight is sufficient, better still, talk to the owners of those two cars for feedback)


Sounds like you're caught up in the PAL Padmini and HM Amby time warp - show me one rusted modern car and I'll show you a nick in the paint that wasn't repaired in time. For a cheap mass market automaker, Suzuki doesn't even figure in the top 5 globally, and are nowhere close to the likes of the Germans or the 3 major Japanese brands when it comes to quality, heck Ford has them beat in quality. In fact, Suzuki making #9 on the top 10 global auto list is thanks to sales in India (50% of sales for Suzuki are from India) driven by an antiquated mindset and lack of awareness. Bhedh chaal at its finest.

For your ref: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschm ... d168491a8b
and: http://www.india.com/auto/car-news/maru ... les-31181/

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby SBajwa » 27 Oct 2017 20:30

Suzuki is successful in India because vast majority of Indians prefer cheaper stuff over quality.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Manish_P » 27 Oct 2017 20:32

Raveen wrote:For a cheap mass market automaker, Suzuki doesn't even figure in the top 5 globally, and are nowhere close to the likes of the Germans or the 3 major Japanese brands when it comes to quality, heck Ford has them beat in quality.


That may hold true for the international market but what about Desh ?

J.D. Power 2016 India Vehicle Dependability Study

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Raveen » 27 Oct 2017 20:36

SBajwa wrote:Suzuki is successful in India because vast majority of Indians prefer cheaper stuff over quality.



Amen - and then we hide this by claiming it's "value for money". As if quality is not valuable.
Last edited by Raveen on 27 Oct 2017 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Raveen » 27 Oct 2017 20:43

Manish_P wrote:
Raveen wrote:For a cheap mass market automaker, Suzuki doesn't even figure in the top 5 globally, and are nowhere close to the likes of the Germans or the 3 major Japanese brands when it comes to quality, heck Ford has them beat in quality.


That may hold true for the international market but what about Desh ?

J.D. Power 2016 India Vehicle Dependability Study


Manish, I assure you Suzuki doesn't have an additional level of quality, fit, and finish that they bring to desh. It's the same crap the peddle everywhere, unsuccessfully.
Also, I am talking about quality, you should be looking at the initial quality results not dependability which takes into account screwdriver and hammer streetside mechanic reparability/familiarity scores in desh.

Look at the initial quality results in desh:
http://india.jdpower.com/press-releases ... lity-study

Suzuki isn't #1 in any of the categories, and trails the likes of Hyundai, in addition to the expected Honda, Toyota, VW, and guess what is ranked right next to Tata in the compact car bread and butter market.

Just for kicks:

Ranked lower than Ford in desh:
http://india.jdpower.com/node/7676/?pcr=lang%7C%7Cen%26%26country%7C%7CIndia%26%26industry%7C%7CAutos%26%26study%7C%7CIndia%20Initial%20Quality%20Study%20(IQS)%20by%20Segment%26%26sID%7C%7C1724ENG%26%26category%7C%7CSUV

Ranked lowest in class in desh:
http://india.jdpower.com/node/7676/?pcr=lang%7C%7Cen%26%26country%7C%7CIndia%26%26industry%7C%7CAutos%26%26study%7C%7CIndia%20Initial%20Quality%20Study%20(IQS)%20by%20Segment%26%26sID%7C%7C1724ENG%26%26category%7C%7CPremium%20Compact

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Sridhar K » 27 Oct 2017 20:53

Having owned a Hyundai, Tata Manza, Suzuki swift and close friends owning Ford, VW, Honda, Suzuki has its own sets of advantages
Availability of service centers, spare anywhere anytime in India, frugal mileage, low spare cost, pretty decent quality of customer experience with service centers, excellent resale value for its cars, feeling of power due to power to weight ratio.

If you dig deeper, the TCO is not cheap if you go through service centres.MtBf is higher but it can be addressed cheaply and quickly. Toyota has the lowest tco, reliability of components, longer running life of their engine. Suzuki has poor sheet metal thickness, poor brakes in lower end variants. Ford claims that the total tco is low for figo than swift and i have it verified it in a few cases myself. However when u sell the car after 5 years, Maruti scores big. VW is not very reliable, limited service centers and high tco. Less said about the safety standards of Maruti, Tata, Hyundai, Renault nissan in India , better it is. Sheet metal thickness should not be confused with safety as they see here in Desh. Structural stability is key which only a few cars score decently. Toyota seems to have improved with 4 star ncap rating for their tin can etios and liva

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Raveen » 27 Oct 2017 21:06

Sridhar K wrote:Having owned a Hyundai, Tata Manza, Suzuki swift and close friends owning Ford, VW, Honda, Suzuki has its own sets of advantages
Sheet metal thickness should not be confused with safety as they see here in Desh. Structural stability is key which only a few cars score decently.


Agreed wholeheartedly - however Suzuki isn't the best with structural integrity either, and they certainly aren't the best with sheet metal quality.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 27 Oct 2017 21:24

To bolster all those arguments, the Tiago sold 100,000 units. Look at the safety table at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/official- ... eview.html

Two ( :roll: ) frontal airbags are optional on most models and included by default only on the top end. Abs+ ebd etc etc is available only on the top end model. That is in short the level of the indian market.
And please honda accords and civics and odysseys run for 250,000-300,000 miles without issues. While our roads are worse, they won't do that much even if they were good. Let's not even talk about quality when indian cars are nowhere near international benchmarks.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Manish_P » 27 Oct 2017 21:32

Raveen wrote:Manish, I assure you Suzuki doesn't have an additional level of quality, fit, and finish that they bring to desh. It's the same crap the peddle everywhere, unsuccessfully. Could well be
Also, I am talking about quality, you should be looking at the initial quality results not dependability which takes into account screwdriver and hammer streetside mechanic reparability/familiarity scores in desh.This is where we should agree to differ Saar. In Desh both matter. Especially in the 'cheap mass market automaker' segment

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Sridhar K » 27 Oct 2017 22:28

The biggest problem is regulation or lack of it in India. When the Indian cars fared poor in NCAP crash test, MSIL and Renault said that their cars comply to Indian standards. However, I see more and more vendors moving slowly towards offering airbags and ABS standard in all variants like the new dzire. Perhaps expecting the perpeetual news about some new laws.The question remains on the structural integrity as we dont enforce crash safety standards. Cars manufactured in India differs between their export and local versions as some components are skipped or compromized on the local variants. Renault was selling dusters with smaller airbags on their Indian variant. We dont really know which of the Indian cars are really safe even if we apply decade old standards from the US.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Zynda » 27 Oct 2017 22:42

I think a crash integral structure will become mandatory for all cars from end of 2018 in India (along with certain safety features like ABS, EBD etc.). I could see airbags becoming mandatory on vehicles costing more than 5L. Although the Nexon has lot of creature comforts along with decent ride & power, I haven't read anything mentioning about complying with crash norms. Think dual airbags are standard on higher trims along with ABS+EBD safety features but I was hoping that underlying structure would be engineered to comply with upcoming crash norms. I doubt Tata will update the platform before end of next year (could happen but if I am a customer who bought Nexon just a year ago & current model is huge upgrade, I'd be pi$$ed with Tata).

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 28 Oct 2017 06:28

It's about money really. Safer cars are more expensive. All the safety aids apart from crash worthy designs hike up the cost leading to lower sales especially in the entry level and the segment immediately above that which are the biggest sales number generating segments. Car companies don't want that and push the govt to relax or postpone stricter safety standards. Loss of jobs in the sector is not what the govt wants. "Kashtam"er wants bang for buck, paisa vasool and music system and keyless entry and no airbags even if he won't survive a 40kmph head on collision within city limits. So everyone is happy while we have 30,000 deaths each year. But hey population control indian style.
Tata nexon tops out at nearly 10l. Only two air bags in front.
Last edited by Prasad on 28 Oct 2017 06:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 28 Oct 2017 06:29

Just look at bharat stage six hungama and listen to auto manufacturers whine and whine and gadkaris statements over it and the new auto bill.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Picklu » 30 Oct 2017 05:06

Prasad wrote:....
Tata nexon tops out at nearly 10l. Only two air bags in front.


Other than ecosport, all the cars in that segment are in similar boat :(

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby neerajb » 03 Nov 2017 10:03

Nexon SUV & Tiago hatchback help Tata Motors beat Honda in India

Tata Motors has beaten Honda yet again. Tata sold 16,475 cars in October 2017 while Honda could sell only 14,234 cars in the same period. The Nexon compact SUV and the Tiago hatchback are propelling Tata ahead. This is the second consecutive month that Tata has beaten Honda in sales, to become the fourth largest car maker in India.


http://www.cartoq.com/nexon-suv-tiago-h ... -in-india/

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby nandakumar » 04 Dec 2017 21:21

An article dissing Tesla's EV programme(model 3). The comments are interesting too.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/12 ... tesla.html

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Manish_P » 27 Dec 2017 19:15

Driving the future: This startup is already powering India's electric vehicle dream

Image

Elon Musk may still be contemplating about entering the Indian market and car makers like Maruti Suzuki, Honda, Ford, and others talk about having their first electric car in India by around 2020, but a Hyderabad-based startup has raced ahead.

Gayam Motor Works (GMW) is not making a sedan, SUV or a sports car, but what it has been able to achieve in a short span of time with limited resources is nothing short of being remarkable. GMW is the first company in the world to develop a electric three-wheeler with Li-Ion battery, with a battery swapping system. Everything in the last sentence puts Gayam in a very unique position

What makes Gayam unique is the fact it has mastered battery swapping technology, a process where you swap a drained battery with a fully charged one. It may sound simple, but it is a complex process, something that even Tesla has only tested and not made commercially available. When you swap batteries you have to ensure that everything electronic that is powered by the battery does not reset.

Secondly, unlike a conventional car where the battery powers only the auxiliary systems, in an electric everything, including the drive-train is powered by the battery.

This means more wires, connectors etc. that need to be connected precisely each time a battery is swapped. What helps Gayam is the fact that the battery powering the SmartAuto is relatively small and two individuals can carry out the process.The battery swapping technology reduces the vehicle refueling time from hours (of charging time) to less than a minute.

"Years of R&D went into developing GMW's proprietary battery technology and management system, to make it suitable for Indian road and weather conditions" says Bavirisetty.

GMW SmartAuto is almost as powerful as a diesel auto- rickshaw. Its high power motor can go up to a maximum speed of 55kmph and can take a load of 500kg. The vehicle's running cost is as low as Rs 0.50/km and offers a range of up to 110kms per charge

Gayam has sold more than 5000 vehicles till date to more than 15 countries, including Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, USA, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, and the Philippines.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby JohnTitor » 27 Dec 2017 21:09

The thing is Indians care little for safety. This isn’t restricted to the auto sector. This can be seen everywhere from electric devices in homes with live wires hanging to people crossing tracks in stations etc.

Indians call this juggad or something but I call it stingy and lazy. Whether one wants to admit it or not, price is everything. In India safety features in a car are optional items. This isn’t the case in developed countries.

Also as far as maruti is concerned, it is so popular because of not just the initial lower cost but also lower maintenance costs. Any component is available for cheaper and everywhere.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby vasu raya » 31 Dec 2017 22:08

Inspired by this post, https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7610&start=280#p2241422

and with Gadkari sir setting 2030 as the target for all EVs in India, is there any spadework done for lithium resources? else its all imports while China exports much like cell phone market

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 05:30

Narendra Modi's Make in India just received one hell of a boost from Lexus
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 079697.cms

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Manish_P » 12 Mar 2018 15:25

All Govt. Officials To Use Electric Vehicles In The National Capital!

Power Ministry has ordered all central government departments and Public Sector Units located in the National Capital to only use electric vehicles from now on. Govt wants 30% of all vehicles to be electric by 2030, and this announcement related to the mandatory use of electric vehicles is a big push. This rule mandates all travel to be in electric mode, within NCR.


As per reports coming in, Power Ministry has already placed an order of 10,000 electric vehicles, which would be now used by Govt. babus, and PSUs. This order has been placed by Energy Efficiency Services Ltd (EESL), which is a JV of all PSUs working under the Power Ministry.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Prasad » 13 Mar 2018 13:15

Isnt that the EESL tender that Tata won?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2018 14:01

2030 target has been changed from 100% EV to 30% EV now - challenging but realistic.

ppl need to be incentivised to buy EV perhaps with a full or partial waiver of taxes which add upto to a lot in india, and some guarantee of battery being recycled by OEM. that will incentivise vendors to produce EV variants of mainstream cars not niches like mahindra eeco etc.

also construction industry will need to shift to providing EV charging points in building basement car parking from the outset and SEB billing models change to 2 meters per sub .... these are actually harder than car industry changes. individual homes are ok and will be the lead wave.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Uttam » 13 Mar 2018 19:08

Singha wrote:ppl need to be incentivised to buy EV perhaps with a full or partial waiver of taxes which add upto to a lot in india


I am in full support of EVs but we have to look at govt finances more closely before taxation is changed. Currently, fuel tax provides a larger amount to the govt. Reducing tax on EVs will be a double whammy. Govt. will lose revenue on EVs as well as fuel.

I think the better way to encourage is to make the charging infrastructure available. Why don't they allow anybody and everybody with electric connection to offer charging facility. India has always progressed very rapidly when the Govt. did not intervene and producers were free to innovate products. Remember the Shampoo packets, mobile phone recharging, dish tv service (I grew up in area where there was very little tv signal, the antennas where 60 ft tall and still bad picture. Then the private dishes arrived and overnight the scene changed), etc. Just let people offer electrical outlet from their house, their shop, etc. Right now the biggest problem is that only the authorized electric company can sell electricity in India. Let people sell it too. They may use the grid or create a microgrid to offer charge. I have some inherited land which is not very productive, but it is close to highway. I would love to set up a solar plant and then offer Electric Pump (like a highway petrol pump), that can charge 80% battery in less than an 1/2 hour. 30 minute, use rest room, have some chai pakoda, and off you go. How about that!!! People in India are very entrepreneurial. They take care of themselves if govt (and the bloody bureaucrats) stop poking their noses.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Chandragupta » 20 Mar 2018 16:25

Uttam wrote:
Singha wrote:ppl need to be incentivised to buy EV perhaps with a full or partial waiver of taxes which add upto to a lot in india


I am in full support of EVs but we have to look at govt finances more closely before taxation is changed. Currently, fuel tax provides a larger amount to the govt. Reducing tax on EVs will be a double whammy. Govt. will lose revenue on EVs as well as fuel.


But our fuel imports will also go down heavily, so will pollution. 30% till is not only realistic but I'd say a little underwhelming. 50% is realistic. When India takes to an idea, it doesn't stop. See cellphones and internet for example.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby arun » 27 Mar 2018 08:17

X Posted.

Supratik wrote:No 4 automobile market now.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 438236.cms



Image

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Vasu » 04 Apr 2018 17:59

Impressive how Maruti has been able to regain the 50% marketshare, which fell to under 40% five years ago.

Maruti Suzuki grabs 50% market share in passenger vehicles segment

Maruti, India’s biggest car maker, also sold more than 1.5 million units for the first time in its over-threedecade history.

At 1.65 million, Maruti’s sales were 14% more than the year before, and almost twice the pace of the passenger vehicles industry.

Maruti Suzuki chairman RC Bhargava said the company’s investment in diesel technology when the fuel was much cheaper than petrol, as well as in new models and sales network helped it gain market share.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread -2

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Apr 2018 09:16

I feel though Indian customers are taken for ride through VFM pricing, good value for existing car etc. But thier cars have gone back to Esteem category weights, I think too much safety is being comprismised in thier leading Sales volumes


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