PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

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ashi
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by ashi »

Sub-Saharan Africa’s first light rail system starts
It is expected to carry 15,000 people per hour in one direction, meaning it could attain four times that in all directions, with a projected top speed of 70km/hr.
The transport system was built over three years by the China Railway Group Limited after the Ethiopian government secured 85% of funding from the Export-Import Bank of China.

China will also train the drivers and maintenance staff, while another Chinese company put together the power system.
ashi
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by ashi »

China wins Indonesia high-speed rail project as Japan laments ‘extremely regrettable’ U-turn
Japan has lost a key Indonesian high-speed railway contract to China, dealing a heavy blow to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe who is seeking to take advantage of infrastructure exports for economic growth.

Sofyan Djalil, head of the Indonesian National Development Planning Agency, told Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga in Tokyo on Tuesday that Indonesia planned to accept the Chinese proposal, Suga said.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by ashi »

China Wins Africa Friends by Building Dam in Ebola Outbreak
As workers at Western companies fled West Africa during the world’s worst-ever Ebola outbreak, a state-owned Chinese company carried on.

China International Water & Electric Corp. completed the Kaleta dam on budget and a year ahead of schedule in July, ending chronic power shortages in the capital, Conakry. Construction continued even as companies including London-based Rio Tinto Plc and Luxembourg-based ArcelorMittal SA paused projects in the region.

“The Chinese saved us,” Lansana Fofana, 63, said, as he stood on the $526 million hydroelectric dam that China financed and he oversees.
Successful projects also help Africa’s leaders. The completion of Kaleta tripled Guinea’s electricity generation and gave many residents of the capital stable power for the first time in their lives, a dividend for President Alpha Conde, who faces re-election next month. Conde is so proud of the dam that he built a private residence next to it and promoted Fofana’s predecessor to energy minister.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Austin »

China begins disclosing information about its official foreign exchange reserves to IMF

http://tass.ru/en/economy/825159
WASHINGTON, October 1. /TASS/. China for the first time began to report its official foreign exchange reserves to the International Monetary Fund (IMF). According to IMF Director of the Communication Department Jerry Rice, China participates in the survey of COFER (Composition of official foreign exchange reserves) - IMF database, which reflects the structure of official foreign exchange reserves of 146 member countries.

According to the information about the second quarter of this year, China's total reserves, which have been reported to the IMF amounted to $11.5 trillion. In the first quarter the amount was smaller - $11.4 trillion. the share of the US dollar significantly increased in the total reserves volume - to 58.2% against 53% in the previous report.

At the end of the year the IMF should complete the next review of the basket of reserve currencies, which will be used by the Fund to form its own calculation unit - the so-called "Special Drawing Right" (SDR). As of now, the basket consists of the US dollar, the euro, the pound sterling and the yen. China, which has the second largest economy in the world, relies on the inclusion of the yuan in the basket.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Austin »

What is this total reserves of $11.4 trillion.

I thought their forex was $3.5 trillion
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by TSJones »

You are quoting TASS. Keep that in mind.

They are not Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal or even Finance.Yahoo.Com.

There is no telling what they mean when saying "reserves" when establishing a dollar figure.

Whutever is convenient to them.

Wall St. Journal says China is still not fully disclosing.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-begin ... 1443624985
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by nandakumar »

TSJones wrote:You are quoting TASS. Keep that in mind.

They are not Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal or even Finance.Yahoo.Com.

There is no telling what they mean when saying "reserves" when establishing a dollar figure.

Whutever is convenient to them.

Wall St. Journal says China is still not fully disclosing.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-begin ... 1443624985
There is no conspiracy theory here. I think they are quoting the reserves in their local currency. At 6yuan to a dollar the number seems right.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by TSJones »

They re using dollar signs for their totals. Like I said, whutever.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Austin »

I checked many new article and they were using Dollah only but likely these are yuan denominated

The current China Forex is $ 3.557 Trillion only per bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/CNGFOREX:IND
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by TSJones »

Austin wrote:I checked many new article and they were using Dollah only but likely these are yuan denominated

The current China Forex is $ 3.557 Trillion only per bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/CNGFOREX:IND
the internet published exchange rate for the yuan (renminbi) is 6.35 to the dollar.

times 3.557 trillion (per your stat) that's 22.58 trillion yuan.

I'm not trying to troll anybody here, because you did ask what the TASS total derived.

and my answer is......I don't think anybody really knows.

even if you calculated China's US treasury's denominated reserves about $1.2 trillion, that would be 7.62 trillion yuan.

I think this discussion is interesting and that is the only reason why I am commenting about it.

historical dollar to yuan exchange rates.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... Y&view=10Y
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Austin »

Well you can even check bloomberg reporting on this

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... eform-push
Total foreign-exchange reserves were $11.5 trillion in the second quarter, up from $11.4 trillion in the previous quarter, the IMF reported Wednesday. The U.S. dollar accounted for 63.8 percent of total allocated reserves, compared to 64.1 percent.

The Cofer database breaks down global holdings by seven currencies: the U.S. dollar, euro, the pound, Japanese yen, Swiss franc, Australian dollar and Canadian dollar.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by TSJones »

Austin wrote:Well you can even check bloomberg reporting on this

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... eform-push
Total foreign-exchange reserves were $11.5 trillion in the second quarter, up from $11.4 trillion in the previous quarter, the IMF reported Wednesday. The U.S. dollar accounted for 63.8 percent of total allocated reserves, compared to 64.1 percent.

The Cofer database breaks down global holdings by seven currencies: the U.S. dollar, euro, the pound, Japanese yen, Swiss franc, Australian dollar and Canadian dollar.
okay by those figures, then the total amount of US treasuries held is 63.8% of published reserves. that would be $11.4 trillion times .638 = $7.27 trillion.

the total amount of US treasury issued debt is $18.15 trillion. So China owns 40% of all US treasury issued debt.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

thats the monkey trap :mrgreen:
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by A_Gupta »

TSJones wrote:
Austin wrote:Well you can even check bloomberg reporting on this

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... eform-push

Total foreign-exchange reserves were $11.5 trillion in the second quarter, up from $11.4 trillion in the previous quarter, the IMF reported Wednesday. The U.S. dollar accounted for 63.8 percent of total allocated reserves, compared to 64.1 percent.

The Cofer database breaks down global holdings by seven currencies: the U.S. dollar, euro, the pound, Japanese yen, Swiss franc, Australian dollar and Canadian dollar.
okay by those figures, then the total amount of US treasuries held is 63.8% of published reserves. that would be $11.4 trillion times .638 = $7.27 trillion.

the total amount of US treasury issued debt is $18.15 trillion. So China owns 40% of all US treasury issued debt.
NO!!!!!!!

Please read the article. $11.5 trillion is the total foreign reserves of the 96 countries reporting to the IMF.
China is one of 96 countries that have agreed to identify themselves as contributors to the IMF’s quarterly data on the currency composition of official foreign-exchange reserves, known as Cofer. The fund still won’t disclose the official reserves of individual countries.

Total foreign-exchange reserves were $11.5 trillion in the second quarter, up from $11.4 trillion in the previous quarter, the IMF reported Wednesday. The U.S. dollar accounted for 63.8 percent of total allocated reserves, compared to 64.1 percent.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by TSJones »

Ah, yes, indeed. I see it now. thank you.

So is it safe to say that 40% of US issued Treasuries constitutes over 63% of global reserves?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by A_Gupta »

TSJones wrote:Ah, yes, indeed. I see it now. thank you.

So is it safe to say that 40% of US issued Treasuries constitutes over 63% of global reserves?
I think not. Only $6.076 trillion of US issued Treasures are held overseas, if I understand this page correctly.
https://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt

If the US Treasury issued debt is $18.15 trillion, then only 33.5% of it is held overseas; and it would constitute 52.8% of global reserves of the COFER countries (assuming all $6.076 trillion were held by the 96 COFER countries).
Last edited by A_Gupta on 04 Oct 2015 02:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Virupaksha »

arent some of the treasuries owned by luxemborg registered apples, microsoft and such co. After we include these kind of private cos, the % held by Govts as a part of their reserves will fall down to a much drastic levels.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Paul »

Jamie McGeever ‏@ReutersJamie · 1h1 hour ago
China's FX reserves fall a record $176 bln in Q3, the fifth quarterly fall in a row. Reserves now $3.51 trln vs $3.99 trln peak last year.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

^^ party officials and their business gangs seem to be high rollers

Inside, factories were supposed to pump out tons of high-priced white liquor — called baijiu in Mandarin — for which the region is famous. Baijiu is made from grain and high-end brands have been a staple at official banquets. As recently as 2012, baijiu sales were a staggering $92 billion.

Today, though, Liquor City looks like an abandoned movie set.

Why?

The project was to be funded largely by coal revenues, which collapsed with the drop in global prices. In addition, planners failed to anticipate the Communist Party's anti-corruption drive, the biggest in modern Chinese history. China's leader, Xi Jinping, launched the campaign nearly three years ago, cracking down on lavish spending for which officials have been notorious.
A state-owned company started building "Liquor City" in a suburb of Luliang to help diversify the economy away from coal. But a massive anti-corruption campaign has damaged demand for expensive Chinese baijiu or white liquor and for now, the factory complex remains unfinished.

A state-owned company started building "Liquor City" in a suburb of Luliang to help diversify the economy away from coal. But a massive anti-corruption campaign has damaged demand for expensive Chinese baijiu or white liquor and for now, the factory complex remains unfinished.
Frank Langfitt/NPR

"Now things are bad," says Lu Cuie, who runs one of the scores of white liquor stores in town. "High-end liquors don't sell at all. Officials don't buy. No one buys."

Before the crackdown, Lu could sell more than $14,000 worth of alcohol for a single event — big money in this poor part of central China.

"On average, when an official held a wedding banquet or birthday party, the banquets used to last three to four days," says Lu, who wears a shirt with the face of Audrey Hepburn emblazoned on the front. "Now, it's simply impossible. It only lasts one day and the scale is much smaller."
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

but nevertheless they have built things all over to scale and spec in advance of any future demand, rather than the perpetual catch up game with insufficient funding we play.

their officials are incentivized for delivering growth and toeing the party line. growth -> infra . atleast party is anxious about cementing its legitimacy by delivering growth.

our officials are incentivized for worshipping the dynasty and toeing the C-system line. the C_system has such a octupus hold on all our democratic institutions they have no anxiety at all, and infact claim to be the sole custodians and curators of the "idea of india"
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Saar,

If we try to do something on similar lines, long series of sermons will be given on black money(which technically is what is financing all this in China), fists will be shaken at swiss bank accounts - maybe a riot or two, NRI who buy property will be called all manner of unprintable names, states will enact laws declaring only locals can buy property, rural folks will suddenly start demanding 10 crore per acre – maybe overturn a scooter or two and set it on fire , long sermons will be given on arable land and 3 crop land, etc

The rot goes deep……
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by gashish »

China's Other Big Problem: 35 Applicants For One White Collar Job

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-1 ... collar-job
This has two major implications:

first, with wages set to drop, yet another source of deflation is about to be unveiled;
second, as China's economic collapse leads to increasingly less job opening , it inevitably means that social tensions and violence are set to rise in a country which see the migration of tens of millions of people from the heartland to the coastal cities.
Finally, all those conflicting forecasts in 2011 that China may or may not hit wage parity with the US some time in 2016, well - we now know the answer: China may have reached its Lewis point, but now that the economy is on its way to a crash landing, it has solidly gone into reverse.
Wages in China have been rising (8-10%)for years now. Wages in white collar jobs (at least in Metro cities) were around 70-75% of equivalent US jobs a year ago. Probably that was peak and would start sliding down now, and would surely add to the woes of real estate market.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Suraj »

China’s government is standing by while investors lose their life savings
Around 220,000 investors in China stand to lose billions of dollars following the mysterious suspension six months ago of all trading at the Fanya Metal Exchange, a trading platform-turned-asset manager.

One of them is Zhou, a 30-year-old urban planner from Hangzhou, in the southeastern Zhejiang province. She and her husband, Chen, invested 90% of her family’s savings, or about 2 million yuan, in Fanya. Their account has been frozen since Fanya said in April it had run into liquidity problems. To add insult to injury, their income, which totaled around 40,000 yuan ($6,327) a month, has halved because China’s property market is cooling. The couple has decided to put their home on the market and move in with her in-laws to make ends meet.

Equally distressing for Zhou and other investors who Quartz interviewed for this story is the near total absence of any official action. The police have not arrested anyone, and the national institutions that are supposed to protect investors have been silent.

Fanya, after all, was no risky fringe investment. It had attracted around $6 billion from mostly retail investors and was affiliated with some of China’s biggest government institutions, including ICBC, its largest bank. Government employees actively sold Fanya’s products. State television regularly featured Fanya on its business news broadcasts, and prominent Chinese economists promoted it. For investors like Zhou, all the evidence suggested Fanya had the tacit, if not outright, approval of their government.

Shan, a 51-year-old businessman from North China Shanxi province, founded Fanya Metal Exchange in 2011 and over the next four years, grew it into the world’s largest rare metals trading exchange. Its flagship product “Ri Jin Bao,” was linked to indium, bismuth, and other rare metals used in electronics. According to its publicity materials, it promised annualized returns as high as 13.7%—much higher than bank savings rates—and the right to withdraw funds at any time. It also promised “zero risk.”

Twelve banks, including ICBC, Bank of China, and other big state-owned banks, are listed as partners on brochures and on Fanya’s 2013 company webpage. The brochures also claim the banks will serve as “third-party custodians.”

Several investors told Quartz the state-run banks weren’t just listed on marketing materials, but went even further, aggressively selling them the Ri Jin Bao product, which pays investors interest for lending end users of rare metals the money to buy them.

Wang Ye, 46, who runs a small business in Xinjiang’s capital of Urumqi, told Quartz that she signed a contract to invest in Ri Jin Bao with a local branch of ICBC.

Wang said that a bank clerk told her “we have a financial product,” leading her to think it was affiliated with ICBC. When signing the contract, Wang said, the bank clerk only “let me have a glance at it” on their computer, as the contract is entirely electronic.

It wasn’t until she couldn’t get her money out in June that she learned the financial product was not run by the bank.

“We don’t even know the account and password of our [Fanya] account,” Wang said. “The banks did everything for us.”
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by panduranghari »

IMO the Chinese are quite clueless as to what to do. They are damned if they do something, damned if they don't.

And this will cause even more problems.

THe future prospects of Chinese meteoric growth wane
Although policymakers have some big levers to pull, including possible expansionary monetary and fiscal policy, that may underpin real economic activity for some time, China’s long-term real gross domestic product (GDP) growth prospects have dimmed. The slowdown is not unexpected.

In 2011, Barry Eichengreen, Donghyun Park and Kwanho Shin, in a joint paper, warned of the pending slowdown in China’s growth. They identified a number of growth drivers, but the broad thrust of their argument was that economies could grow fast for a period by shifting labour from the primary sector to the secondary industry, while “importing” and applying technology from abroad. These developments typically boost productivity and GDP growth, but not indefinitely.

Ultimately, they observe, once an economy reaches a particular stage of development, a growth slowdown occurs as economies struggle to continue extracting robust productivity gains from these drivers. Characteristics of this “stage of development” include a median GDP per capita level of just over $15 000 (R201 317) in 2005 constant international prices and manufacturing employment of around 23 percent of total employment. Roughly, China is approaching this point.

Viewed from this perspective, the slowdown in China’s growth rate is, therefore, no surprise. But the question is just how prolonged and deep the slowdown will be.

There is reason for concern. China’s fixed investment expenditure has been exceptionally strong for decades. Accordingly, the level of capital stock has increased sharply relative to both GDP and labour input. During the first decade of this century, China’s investment ratio climbed from about 30 percent of GDP to close to 50 percent, while the real capital stock increased, on average, by more than 10 percent per annum. This is exceptionally high and cannot continue indefinitely.

For a time, strong investment spending drives productivity and GDP growth. But as the capital stock continues to expand for a given level of GDP and labour, it becomes more difficult to sustain growth as an increasing share of investment goes towards replacing ageing plants and machinery. An increasingly smaller portion of investment is in new machinery and equipment.

Investment in property has already declined markedly, but overall fixed investment spending continues to outpace GDP growth, while the ratio of investment in output has remained high at close to 50 percent. It seems unlikely this can continue.
Add the declining demographics, its not looking too good for the 50 year plan and the 100 year plan for the perfidious han.

Some may argue, Chinese leadership will just move from manufacturing to a consumption driven economy. There is however no precedence to such a shift.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostow's_stages_of_growth

According to the Rostow's stages of growth;

1/ Traditional society
2/ Preconditions for take-off
3/ Take-off
4/ Drive to maturity
5/ Age of High mass consumption

The first 3 stages are common for a top-down economy (like China) or a bottom-up economy like in a free society. The first 3 stages are faster for the top-down economy. But unless the politics changes, a top-down economy never moves to stage 4.

Lets see how Chinese play this one out?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ According to Western ideology, China should not have grown the economy they have. It was unprecedented. So I wouldn't take Western scholars as the last word on this.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by KrishnaK »

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ According to Western ideology, China should not have grown the economy they have. It was unprecedented. So I wouldn't take Western scholars as the last word on this.
Actually it is western ideology, commerce and capital that's helped China grow the economy the way they have. Like it helped Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan grow. Economics should work the same, everywhere.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by amit »

Singha wrote:but nevertheless they have built things all over to scale and spec in advance of any future demand, rather than the perpetual catch up game with insufficient funding we play.
Singha,

I know the popular idea is that infrastructure spending is a good way to kick start and sustain economic growth. However, recent research sometimes questions this idea. In this paper Andrew Warner argues that investment in infra usually follows GDP boom and not vice versa.

To quote him:
Overall it is difficult to find a clear-cut example that fits the oft-repeated narrative of a public investment boom followed by acceleration in GDP growth. If anything the cases of clear-cut booms illustrate the opposite – major drives in the past have been followed by slumps rather than booms. Ethiopia in the past decade may prove to be an exception to this pattern. However, it is difficult to establish causality since public investment, GDP, and several other variables have risen together in Ethiopia in recent years. Rapid economic growth in Korea and Taiwan province of China {this is your dhimmi IMF publication doing a full display of tailcoat shiver!} began before their public investment drives, which were in fact modest, compared to the size of the economies. Well-known cases of growth revivals, such as China and Vietnam, were triggered by the abolition of price controls in the Agricultural sector, and were not preceded by major public investment drives.
I know the discussion is becoming a bit academic, but if you take the point that public investment in infra follows GDP boom and not vice versa, then it's bad news for all the ghost towns and public infra like airports that China has built up. They will not spur economic growth and unless there is some other form of stimulus that spurs growth then this infrastructure will be sitting there for a long time before it gets utilised.

The problem with public infrastructure is very similar to your car. Its starts to depreciate in value from Day 1. Since all of this infra was built with public money, the loans are not being serviced, which means there's no money for the upkeep of the infra. One thing folks need to keep in mind is that the climate in China, especially in the northern belt is very harsh much more so than it is in India. And any infrastructure like buildings, roads etc that are left to itself with no upkeep is going to go to waste very fast.

I for one don't think that all the excess buildings and roads lying about in China will be any significant advantage going into the future. IMO they are investments that will have to be written off. Ordos is not going to pay for itself any time soon.

Some more interesting stuff from our friends in Wall Street Journal
Mr. Pettis argued in a recent book that countries tend to get locked into infrastructure spending cycles that aren’t sustainable: When growth slows, the rise in bad debts can force investors to cut back even further and can even lead to a financial crisis, as seen with Latin America in the 1980s.

Politicians often prefer dams, interstate highways and bullet trains that make the news, critics add, rather than schools, hospitals and smaller projects that may be more economically productive.

“China is now pushing high-speed rail into rural areas that doesn’t do much for villagers. They really need a one-lane road,” said Ralph W. Huenemann, professor emeritus at Canada’s University of Victoria who has evaluated the efficacy of projects for the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank.{this is something that has been said on this dhaga for a long, long time!}
Last edited by amit on 19 Oct 2015 06:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by NRao »

the popular idea is that infrastructure spending is a good way to kick start and sustain economic growth.
The thinking used to be that during major economic depression it is good to pump funds into infrastructure projects. I recall in Maharashtra long time back they completed 10-15 years worth of roads in a huffy because farmers had no work due to drought and the gov used that labor for roads.

The correlation between infrastructure and GDP comes into the picture only when there is an expected boom and that boom needs infrastructure. As it may be the case now in India.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by amit »

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ According to Western ideology, China should not have grown the economy they have. It was unprecedented. So I wouldn't take Western scholars as the last word on this.
Gupta ji, don't really understand your point here. China's has followed a unique growth pattern. However, having said that, its growth is not something that cannot be explained by standard economic theory, which can hardly be called western economic theory because that would be akin to calling something like say, the laws of motion as being the so called Western laws of motion as opposed to the Eastern laws of motion.

Deng ushered in a interesting combination of totalitarianism/dictatorship, capitalism and an aggressive brand of mercantilism best typified by that black cat, white cat and mouse quote to kick start Chinese growth. Don't get me wrong I think that man was a genius because out of the "n" different paths he could have chosen for Chinese growth he chose the one that perhaps worked the best for China. No one can deny that it has had three decades of 10%+ growth, of course helped along by some favourable geopolitical factors.

However, it was bound to happen sooner or later that economic laws would catch up with the country. China today is staring at the classic "middle income trap" with the added disadvantage of having a rapidly ageing population before it become really rich (in per capita terms). The problem is those who have followed Deng have become a one trick pony as a result of which they only know one way of economic management, the one that Deng ushered in and there's a real scare of trying to do something different because that would be blamed on the fall of economic growth which is bound to happen. Which is why I agree to the idea that as of now they have displayed a remarkable degree of clueless behaviour with regard to the way forward. IMO what is needed now is a way forward which adjusts the economy and expectations of the population to a new normal of 3-5 per cent growth.

China has some extremely brilliant planners, let's see if they can rise above the CCP hive mentality and do something about the economy before it's too late.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by A_Gupta »

Western ideology is quite different from economics as a (dismal) science. Ideology infects the economics profession severely, making its scientific content minimal. Per western ideology, state capitalism was not supposed to work; prosperity without a Protestant ethic or lack of individual freedom was not supposed to happen, and so on. When they predict the slowdown of China, it is one par economics, but ten parts trying to assert the primacy of their ideology; it is not an objective assessment.

Likewise, per their theories, neither India as a nation, nor India as a democracy is supposed to exist. Part of the reason they jump on every flaw of India (as compared to Pakistan, say) is not just India being held to a higher standard, but also because it reinforces their ideology. Both China and India, at a fundamental core level, offend the West. It is only to the extent the West has divorced itself from its past (e.g., deChristianized, become pantheistic or pagan) that it has accepted these two countries.

Therefore, their analyses are suspect.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by KrishnaK »

A_Gupta wrote:Western ideology is quite different from economics as a (dismal) science. Ideology infects the economics profession severely, making its scientific content minimal. Per western ideology, state capitalism was not supposed to work; prosperity without a Protestant ethic or lack of individual freedom was not supposed to happen, and so on. When they predict the slowdown of China, it is one par economics, but ten parts trying to assert the primacy of their ideology; it is not an objective assessment.

Likewise, per their theories, neither India as a nation, nor India as a democracy is supposed to exist. Part of the reason they jump on every flaw of India (as compared to Pakistan, say) is not just India being held to a higher standard, but also because it reinforces their ideology. Both China and India, at a fundamental core level, offend the West. It is only to the extent the West has divorced itself from its past (e.g., deChristianized, become pantheistic or pagan) that it has accepted these two countries.

Therefore, their analyses are suspect.
There is nothing objective about any part of your post either. For example this
Part of the reason they jump on every flaw of India (as compared to Pakistan, say)
Do you have anything to back your claim that "they" jump on every flaw of India a lot more compared to Pakistan, say ? Can't we just stick to economics here ?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

interesting two pages on some other ghost towns than ordos
http://weburbanist.com/2013/12/18/ghost ... d-wonders/

Image
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

there is a diagonal NE-SW green mountains running west of beijing down to xian.
behind these moutains is the creeping invasion of the gobi desert.

ordos, luliang and other ghost towns are part of this region, which seems to have smallish towns all well connected by highways but less population. ordos is only around 500km west of beijing across the moutains and then the semi-desert.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by amit »

A_Gupta wrote:Western ideology is quite different from economics as a (dismal) science. Ideology infects the economics profession severely, making its scientific content minimal. Per western ideology, state capitalism was not supposed to work; prosperity without a Protestant ethic or lack of individual freedom was not supposed to happen, and so on. When they predict the slowdown of China, it is one par economics, but ten parts trying to assert the primacy of their ideology; it is not an objective assessment.

Likewise, per their theories, neither India as a nation, nor India as a democracy is supposed to exist. Part of the reason they jump on every flaw of India (as compared to Pakistan, say) is not just India being held to a higher standard, but also because it reinforces their ideology. Both China and India, at a fundamental core level, offend the West. It is only to the extent the West has divorced itself from its past (e.g., deChristianized, become pantheistic or pagan) that it has accepted these two countries.

Therefore, their analyses are suspect.
I'm sorry but you are confusing political economic mumbo jumbo with hard economic theory that's empirically measurable.

Marx and Engels basic contention on why the revolution would come was also politics. But as the late Madhu Limaye once wrote, the Ford Assembly line destroyed the theory by making it possible for factory workers to buy the stuff that they produced because cost of production fell steeply. This has had a cascading effect whereby more demand leads to more production and economies of scale kick in and the cost price keeps going down resulting in virtuous cycle of demand linked to drop in price. [Just think of computers and their price for an example].

All that nonsense about Protestant work ethics and Christianized this and that are part of the legacy of politicisation of economic theory that was the hallmark of the era in which Karl Marx and Max Weber were the reigning deities of the intellectual class in Britain.

Economics as a subject has IMO outgrown that era a long time ago. It is by no means an exact science but modern economic theory and practice can very well predict broad macro economic outcomes based on empirical data that is available.

Since this is the China dhaga, let me give one piece of data that's easily verifiable, and whose source is actually the Chinese and not those Chirstianized folk who predict doom and gloom.

From the time when China was the fifth largest economy in the world, or in other words, less than half the size that it is today, its steel production has been more than the combined output of the next 9 largest steel producing nations in the world and that includes the likes of Japan, South Korea, US and of course India.

It's statistically verifiable, that China even today, let alone when it was the fifth largest economy in the world does not have enough natural demand to absorb all that steel. Steel is a slightly different commodity from an iPhone, in as much as you cannot easily sell it on the global market. Steel production (along with other sectors such as cement) is one of the reasons why China embarked on the massive infrastructure build up. They had to absorb the production or the plants would close and thousands would lose their jobs and this would lead to social unrest. Well the popular consensus is that China has reached the limit of this policy and cannot build anymore.

The above is just a snapshot. The present problems being faced by the country has been caused by a myriad of other factors and you don't need Western ideology to tell you that it is at an important crossroad in terms of its economic future. If you keep your ears to the ground as some folks do, you'll note that even the Chinese are saying the same thing, couched in politically correct language.

All the data is there and easily verifiable. You don't need ideology or theology to examine them and come to an empirical conclusion.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

where are they using 700 mil tons of steel annually ?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Singha »

panduranghari
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by panduranghari »

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ According to Western ideology, China should not have grown the economy they have. It was unprecedented. So I wouldn't take Western scholars as the last word on this.
I would agree with you.

This would also support your assumption;
The increased rate of creation of nonagricultural jobs has a two-fold effect on the wage share of GDP.
First, wages in nonagricultural jobs are about three times the earnings in agriculture. Thus, as the share of the
workforce employed outside of agriculture rises, other things being equal, the wage share of GDP rises. Second,
more rapid growth of demand for nonagricultural labor has meant that urban wage growth has remained
strong even as the headline GDP growth number has slowed since 2010.
The rising wage share is the primary reason that the consumption share of GDP has now risen for five
consecutive years. The pace of increase in the private consumption share is still modest, but it is a dramatic
change from the decade 2000–2010, when it fell continuously. More wage income means more consumption;
an increased share of this consumption expenditure is on services; this leads to relatively faster growth of ser
-
vice output, which feeds back to a stronger demand for labor and thus to more wage income. This virtuous
circle has helped to offset the drag on growth from industry, where growth has been slowing since 2010.
It should also be noted that services are much less energy intensive than industry. Industry requires eight
times more energy per unit of GDP than services. And roughly two-thirds of industry is heavy industry—fer
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rous and nonferrous metals, heavy machinery, etc.—where the amount of electricity required to produce a
unit of GDP is 10 times that required in services. So, since the structure of production is shifting from heavy
industry to services, the famous Li Keqiang index of GDP growth, which has electricity as one of its three com
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ponents (another is railroad freight transport), is now outdated and no longer a reliable guide to the pace of
expansion of China’s economy.
Other indicators, beyond those associated with services, suggest the assertion that China’s growth is now
or soon will be only 3 to 4 percent is not well founded. The wages of migrant workers rose 10 percent in the first
half of 2015, which is quite remarkable because the sectors in which migrants are predominantly employed—
construction and export processing—are clearly the slowest growing sectors of the Chinese economy. Another
indicator is that the number of migrant workers employed outside of their native counties slightly expanded in
the first half of 2015. This is in sharp contrast to the first half of 2009 when GDP growth slowed to 7 percent
and exports fell sharply, causing 20 million migrant workers on China’s southeast coast to lose their jobs and
return to their native places
http://piie.com/publications/briefings/piieb15-3.pdf
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by panduranghari »

amit wrote:
All that nonsense about Protestant work ethics and Christianized this and that are part of the legacy of politicisation of economic theory that was the hallmark of the era in which Karl Marx and Max Weber were the reigning deities of the intellectual class in Britain.

Economics as a subject has IMO outgrown that era a long time ago. It is by no means an exact science but modern economic theory and practice can very well predict broad macro economic outcomes based on empirical data that is available.

-----
All the data is there and easily verifiable. You don't need ideology or theology to examine them and come to an empirical conclusion.
Amit,

Actually the western economic thinking is dominated by the Labour Theory of Value. Its Marxian in origin. The theory goes that anything has a value because someone says it has a value. The problem is Marx or Adam Smith thought from the perspective of an ideal economic man who is self aware and selfish. He will do everything that is good for him, the consequences on the environment or other people do not matter.

The Marxian LTV has been categorically debunked. However the Chicago school still has its proponents like The federal reserve or Krugman. I actually agree with much Krugman writes but his foundational understanding is still LTV which makes his prescriptions a failure.

Economics is an empirical science. Its become a activist science. And that is the failure of current economic models.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : April 20 2015

Post by Suraj »

Singha wrote:where are they using 700 mil tons of steel annually ?
You don't necessarily have to use it all. It is possible to melt it down and produce more next year, NREGA style. In the west this is called a 'make work program'.
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