Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 14 Apr 2016 10:47

Indian Railway unveils train coaches with new, refurbished look

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 14 Apr 2016 17:00

Railways are adopting highway construction model where private parties would build the line and get an annuity from traffic earnings.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/in- ... m5q1K.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Apr 2016 06:26

7 days, 10 trains: Discovering India through the general compartment
http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/edito ... nt-2202405

gatimaan clocking 160 kmph
https://youtu.be/F5LHOdB6T60

one could still so much of swacch work remaining on the way.. along the tracks.

great move

Suresh Prabu's 2030 vision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2GNUQBBXBM

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 17 Apr 2016 07:11

SaiK wrote: gatimaan clocking 160 kmph
https://youtu.be/F5LHOdB6T60

+1 hope to see Talgo trains hitting 200 kmph in the near future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2016 10:04

no fencing though on the tracks....village tractors loaded with a trailer and even buses/trucks have a nasty habit of stalling and refusing to start on the rail tracks because driver going up the ramp at a higher gear....at those speeds the train will need more than a mile (?) to halt totally. it will be disaster if any unmanned crossings or "villager made" cuttings are allowed.

as for the unfenced tracks, the train will shred any animals or stupid people who come in front despite the blasts of its siren.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2016 16:10

Talgo train has very short coaches, with bogies shared between adcajent...also tilt system...trialled in saudi arabia also. Like small serpent it can run efficiently around tight curves
https://youtu.be/O9GvqX5m_Pc

For shatabdi type 8 hr chair car trains it looks fine. But not replacement for the mighty 25 coach rajdhanis

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 17 Apr 2016 17:03

They are planning for 35+ coach Talgo trains. Otherwise it may not be financially viable in India.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 17 Apr 2016 17:11

Also Rajdhanis/Shatabdis/Durontos are going to get the new trainsets currently under tender. So it is not clear what Talgo if successful will replace. Perhaps the other better trains will be a combination of Talgo and the new IR coaches.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2016 21:40

Wont a global tender and mrca eval be needed?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Apr 2016 05:26

According to this report, the first top speed test at 200 kmph is scheduled to be conducted between Delhi and Mumbai.

http://www.india.com/news/india/talgo-t ... e-1090979/

The Spanish train maker has offered to test run itd lighter and faster trains free of cost on the existing Indian Railways network. After reaching the Mumbai harbour, the Talgo coaches will get customs clearance and then moved to Izzatnagar depot for trial expected to be in June. According to a senior Railway Ministry official, “The first Talgo train trial will be conducted between Bareilly and Moradabad rail route at a maximum speed of 115 km per hour for oscillation test. This will be followed by another trial between Palwal and Mathura route at a maximum speed of 180 kmph.”
The third test will be carried out between Delhi and Mumbai at a maximum speed of 200 kmph. According to Railways, Talgo trains are capable of running at speeds varying between 160-200 kmph on the existing infrastructure without any upgrade. Railways has to strengthen the tracks and upgrade the signalling system for running Gatiman Express at 160 kmph speed. Barring minor changes, there will be no need for overhauling the tracks for the Talgo trial run, he said, adding, the cost of import of coaches and custom clearances will be borne by Talgo. Besides reducing travel time, Talgo’s lighter trains consume 30 per cent less energy which will help railways reduce their power bill.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Apr 2016 05:44

400 crores for 400 stations going wifi.

I think that is way too expensive even including back switch wiring, connectivity and routing.

a decent triband nowadays, you get for less than $350 bucks- this is the best gigabit btw ac3500.
1 crore per station? mmm...

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 18 Apr 2016 15:03

^^Many many years ago, I had to a chance to meet with one of the top echelon admin folks of SWR at his office in BLR rly station. This was when the first batch of GT46MAC from then EMD's active plant in London, ON, were producing locos for India. I had asked this question, why IR still restricts speed to 110Kph on majority of the routes in S India and even on routes like BLR-MAS, which are rated for 130Kph operations. He said, 130Kph is only rated at stretches of tracks which have no curves or have curves with huge radius of curvature. Further, he said something which I did not know and was surprised to hear. No fencing posts a huge problem...if a train traveling at 160Kph hits a cow, not only the cow dies but it will derail the train in the process. And it was very expensive for IR without providing suitable infra for villagers so that they can cross their animals, vehicles with out harms way. Anyways, after the discussion, we requested that if we could ride in the cab of a loco. He found out that a couple of loose WDG4 were being hauled to KR loco shed for some maintenance issues and he arranged a cab ride from BLR main station to BLR cant

I was quite an experience to hear the jet engine type of whine and also electronic horn.

I am sure IR will have to identify zones where fencing is mandatory if they want to run trains at 200Kph safely on a regular basis.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Apr 2016 15:27

Zynda wrote:I am sure IR will have to identify zones where fencing is mandatory if they want to run trains at 200Kph safely on a regular basis.

There are also lots of other points which needs to be considered especially for people to get a feel that the journey times have considerably come down.
1. One as you rightly said, the fencing of the area and realignment needs to be done if the train has to maintain the 200KPH speed long enough to have a visible reduction in the running time.
2. Reworking on the time tables (or building additional lines). For a train to go steady at 200kmph, there should be a good amount of track which needs to be cleared of other (slower) trains. So time tables have to be redrawn so that the slower trains all get looped into side lines, well ahead in time for the 200kmph chap to go through without reducing speed.
3. Reworking on the signaling system. Only few busy territories in India have the automatic block system, which requires minimum manual intervention. In the other areas a lot of human coordination is required (SM and Sec. Controller, SM & gate keepers, SM & shunting yard masters etc.), which slows down the process.
3A. IR may also have to check if the existing system of signals are sufficient to give adequate warnings to drivers in the high speed trains. The current system is pretty much an exact replica of the way British signals worked. The US etc. changed it when their trains started going at higher speeds. They now have a system which consists of two sets of three light signals etc. For example the first set shows a green, while the second set shows a yellow. This indicates that the train can go at scheduled speed, but he should prepare to slow down in the next block section (and NOT at the next immediate signal).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2016 16:41

even the mighty TGV has suffered numerous hits on vehicles that got stuck within automated railway gates, but such is the techonology it seldom suffered major damage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_T ... g_accident

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Apr 2016 18:24

Talgo has sent its Series 9 train for the trials. It doesn't seem to be a train set, as it's pulled by locomotive. I though tilting technologies are adopted only by train sets and not by conventional locomotive hauled coaches.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Apr 2016 04:23

perhaps they could install ultrasound noise to chase away animals on the track

23k - 35k
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/HearingRange.html

Species Approximate Range (Hz)
human 64-23,000
dog 67-45,000
cat 45-64,000
cow 23-35,000
horse 55-33,500
sheep 100-30,000
rabbit 360-42,000
rat 200-76,000
mouse 1,000-91,000
gerbil 100-60,000
guinea pig 54-50,000
hedgehog 250-45,000
raccoon 100-40,000
ferret 16-44,000
opossum 500-64,000
chinchilla 90-22,800
bat 2,000-110,000
beluga whale 1,000-123,000
elephant 16-12,000
porpoise 75-150,000 {wow!}
goldfish 20-3,000
catfish 50-4,000
tuna 50-1,100
bullfrog 100-3,000
tree frog 50-4,000
canary 250-8,000
parakeet 200-8,500
cockatiel 250-8,000
owl 200-12,000
chicken 125-2,000

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 19 Apr 2016 04:34

A friend of min booked tickets more than a month back. his wait list no was No 2 & No 3. However tickets were not confirmed till last day. But when he checked chart at station, wait list no 12/24/39 were confirmed. When checked at reservation countered, was told that since he booked it online,he will get last preference to get it confirmed. Those who book tickets on railway counter, will get preference for ticket confirmation.
When railways charges 14% service tax extra while booking on line, why should last preference for confirmation be given to the online wait list ticket?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Apr 2016 04:58

perhaps queuing theory wrongly implemented. online was added later to the system (remember). so, disparate system needs a common priority queue model.

just a WAG, but most likely a design issue. not sure, how they have marchitected the solution for higher OLTP. A federated (origin of travel based) big data platform move would be ideal.
And each such node has its own queues for the selected train.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 19 Apr 2016 09:33

manjgu wrote:A friend of min booked tickets more than a month back. his wait list no was No 2 & No 3. However tickets were not confirmed till last day. But when he checked chart at station, wait list no 12/24/39 were confirmed.

Most likely passengers on WL 12,24 & 39 might have used the EQ (Emergency Quota) which went vacant. This can be easily managed if there are contacts in the Zone/Div. offices and there are really not much people traveling on an "Emergency" to avail the quota. The only risky part is that this quota only gets filled up around an hour before the final charts are prepared.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Apr 2016 10:44

Bullet train needs 100 trips a day to be viable: Study

The proposed bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad will have to ferry 88,000-118,000 passengers a day, or undertake 100 trips daily, for the railways to keep it financially viable, according to a report by Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIM-A).

The report, titled, ‘Dedicated High Speed Railway (HSR) Networks in India: Issues in Development’, states that if the railways set the ticket price at Rs 1500 for the 300-km drive per person 15 years after the operation, it will have to ferry between 88,000 and 110,000 passengers every day to ensure that it repays the loans with interest on time.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 19 Apr 2016 10:56

A 30 minute frequency or 15 minute during peak hours and 1/2 hours during off-peak hours can work wonders to the geography of the route. The good part is not all trains need to stop at all stops. Fast/Slow concept can be studied at intercity distances as well.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 19 Apr 2016 17:31

Some development on suburban railway for Bangalore. Credits to Mr. Suresh Prabhu for pushing forward something which former Railway ministers from KA failed to.

Suburban rail work to begin soon: Minister (Deccan Herald)

The work on the first phase of the suburban rail network connecting Yeshwantpur with Tumakuru, Whitefield with Baiyyappanahalli and Mandya with Kengeri is set to begin soon.

Bengaluru Development Minister K J George told reporters on Monday that the first phase would cost Rs 1,000 crore and would be shared by the state and the Centre. The first phase of the suburban rail would augment the Metro rail network, he said. The state government has released Rs 100 crore for the project.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 19 Apr 2016 18:07

manjgu wrote:A friend of min booked tickets more than a month back. his wait list no was No 2 & No 3. However tickets were not confirmed till last day. But when he checked chart at station, wait list no 12/24/39 were confirmed. When checked at reservation countered, was told that since he booked it online,he will get last preference to get it confirmed. Those who book tickets on railway counter, will get preference for ticket confirmation.
When railways charges 14% service tax extra while booking on line, why should last preference for confirmation be given to the online wait list ticket?

I also got shafted by this rule many years ago. What is worse is that my parents were with me on that trip. We had to wait till 2 AM for the train for which I bought confirmed tickets.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Apr 2016 20:44

There is no such rule. Probably somebody with influence with Railway staff have got thier tickets confirmed. It happens.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Apr 2016 03:00

Kakkaji wrote:Bullet train needs 100 trips a day to be viable: Study

The proposed bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad will have to ferry 88,000-118,000 passengers a day, or undertake 100 trips daily, for the railways to keep it financially viable, according to a report by Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIM-A).

The report, titled, ‘Dedicated High Speed Railway (HSR) Networks in India: Issues in Development’, states that if the railways set the ticket price at Rs 1500 for the 300-km drive per person 15 years after the operation, it will have to ferry between 88,000 and 110,000 passengers every day to ensure that it repays the loans with interest on time.

That requires no level crossing of whatsoever and no animal crossings so that means elevated tracks are a must for 100 trips daily. At 460 km distance and speed of 200 kph, that means 2 1/2 hr trip. In 16 hour shifts (i.e., 6 am to 11 pm) that is 6 trips per train. 100/6 means 17 train sets.so 9 trains going one way and 8 trains going the other way. that means there has to be a train every 52 kms. The train can only stop for 17 minutes total at any point before the next train catches up.

So basically on the conservative side, there should be 10 trains each way at any given moment of time with two in reserves to meet the 100 daily trips a day requirement.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 20 Apr 2016 03:12

These sort of ideas of Medical emergency rooms in railway station are already there like in Trivandrum Central:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Thi ... 416492.ece

Also there are trains with full fledged medical facilities that travel all over India, there is nothing new in these ideas.
It is called Lifeline Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNqjOTx6nR0

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 20 Apr 2016 04:42

This year marks the 50th year of the completion of the DBK railway, Dandakaranya-Bolangir-Kiruburu Railway headquartered in Waltair. It was a magnificent achievement 84 major bridges and 58 tunnels and the highest BG tracks in the world at 1000m. Some of the engineers and men who worked on it whom I knew, you were " the best of the last and the last of the best". One or two here and there remember, you went into jungle, inhospitable terrain and left a mark. All projects came in, on time and on budget. It was a different world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kothavala ... andul_line

A section on the DBK Railway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfZe6mb2src

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Apr 2016 08:27

prashanth wrote:Some development on suburban railway for Bangalore. Credits to Mr. Suresh Prabhu for pushing forward something which former Railway ministers from KA failed to.

Suburban rail work to begin soon: Minister (Deccan Herald)

The work on the first phase of the suburban rail network connecting Yeshwantpur with Tumakuru, Whitefield with Baiyyappanahalli and Mandya with Kengeri is set to begin soon.

Bengaluru Development Minister K J George told reporters on Monday that the first phase would cost Rs 1,000 crore and would be shared by the state and the Centre. The first phase of the suburban rail would augment the Metro rail network, he said. The state government has released Rs 100 crore for the project.

Can't they run emu's like in madras and bombay on the existing railway lines? You could ideally run from majestic/malleswaram upto whitefield and another upto bellandur. I'm not sure these existing lines are that heavily used either.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 20 Apr 2016 08:54

Prasad wrote:Can't they run emu's like in madras and bombay on the existing railway lines

That is the plan for now. Most of the IR 1000 Cr investment will be used for building stations, pit lines etc.
I'm not certain whether those lines are used heavily but there is a shortage of platform space in SBC. They have now planned to upgrade BYP station to accommodate more trains.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2016 09:42

new railway coaches need to take into size increasing height and girth of indics. so far I see very small legspaces in sleeper and chair cars which make it tough for tall people to sit comfortably. also the seat height in the lowest tier of sleeper is too low for comfort.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Apr 2016 09:47

Prasad wrote:Can't they run emu's like in madras and bombay on the existing railway lines? You could ideally run from majestic/malleswaram upto whitefield and another upto bellandur. I'm not sure these existing lines are that heavily used either.

There seems to be multiple problems here.
1. The railways from I understand is not very keen on this as it does not look viable/profitable for them. There are only two lines between SBC and WFD, this also has to be shared with regular express/mail trains and goods trains as well. There are a number of trains which arrive and depart from SBC during all hours of the day.
2. Line towards Bellandur - CRLM and HSRA is single line and not electrified. So EMUs cannot run here, it has to be DEMUs. But this route does not see heavy traffic through out the day.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 20 Apr 2016 10:52

There has been a proposal/plan to lay additional 2 tracks from Bangalore main train station to Whitefield since 2001..probably to run local trains. Obviously nothing has happened in the last 15 years LOL

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Apr 2016 15:15

Kakkaji wrote:Bullet train needs 100 trips a day to be viable: Study

The proposed bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad will have to ferry 88,000-118,000 passengers a day, or undertake 100 trips daily, for the railways to keep it financially viable, according to a report by Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIM-A).

The report, titled, ‘Dedicated High Speed Railway (HSR) Networks in India: Issues in Development’, states that if the railways set the ticket price at Rs 1500 for the 300-km drive per person 15 years after the operation, it will have to ferry between 88,000 and 110,000 passengers every day to ensure that it repays the loans with interest on time.

Not only this, consider the following
It's All Suddenly Going Wrong in China's $3 Trillion Bond Market
From the article

State-owned China Railway Materials Co. halted its bond trading on April 11, saying it’s studying debt “repayment issues.”

And this is an article from 2011

Zhao Jian, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, says the project could lead to bank failures. He states, "In China, we will have a debt crisis — a high-speed rail debt crisis. I think it is more serious than your[US] subprime mortgage crisis. You can always leave a house or use it. The rail system is there. It’s a burden. You must operate the rail system, and when you operate it, the cost is very high."
....
....
The government shut down older, cheaper slow train lines in a bid to get migrant workers to use the new lines. But the tickets were too expensive and the bid failed -- the workers turned to the bus system, clogging highways. -

And let us not forget the example of the fabled JR (Japanese Railways) which will probably never pay back the investment made into its High speed rail. We have case after case after case for this monumental failures of HSR. Yet we insist on going down the same path. Railways is best suited for moving goods and stuff from one place to another. Not for moving people. Let us exapand our airlines and our air sector. That will be more beneficial. Let us make air travel more affordable. Let us make Indians prosperous such that they take to air and not to trains.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2016 15:27

I think only beyond 200kmph the huge investments are needed. Upto that we can use existing tracks and infra on mki basis quite cheaply. We can 200ize our top 25 routes that itself will be a huge economy boost

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Apr 2016 15:27

There will be multiple spin offs in terms of technology up gradation, operating expertise gained, manpower training and associated ancillary industries that will come up to service such a project. This can be used for our own networks and improvements

Anand Ranganathan ‏@ARangarajan1972 Apr 18

On Bullet train viability, read the original IIM report instead. It is a brilliant report.

http://www.iimahd.ernet.in/assets/snipp ... -03-58.pdf …

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Apr 2016 15:46

prashanth wrote:
Prasad wrote:Can't they run emu's like in madras and bombay on the existing railway lines
That is the plan for now. Most of the IR 1000 Cr investment will be used for building stations, pit lines etc.
I'm not certain whether those lines are used heavily but there is a shortage of platform space in SBC. They have now planned to upgrade BYP station to accommodate more trains.

I do not get it. the same amount of money or little bit more can be spent on building and running a Metro in Outer-ring road as well as Inner Ring Road in Bangalore. The space is already there, all that is needed is putting in pillars and building stations, that too is possible due to side roads availability in and around outer ring road. So no costly land acquisition is required atleast in the outer ring road. That would decongest a lot of traffic. The only place where Metro would probably have to go underground would be near Marthahalli due to HAL airport. And if BMTC were to operate feeder service like BEST does in Bombay then it would be massive success. Why this inordinate fascination on running MRTS on existing railway lines?

Why ??

Eventually when the Metro does come up in and around Outer-Ring road it will cannibalize the traffic from MRTS or vice-versa. This will throw the viability of both of these systems into question. In addition since MRTS will be run on the existing tracks, MRTS trains will be given first preference as is the norm. So long distance passenger trains and goods train trying to make up for time will not be able to do so on Bangalore stretches. There is a reason why MRTS trains are run on their own dedicated tracks like it is done in Bombay or in Chennai between Chennai Central and Tambram. In case of Bangalore that will not be possible. Further the stations in Bangalore MRTS are not ideally situated for mass people ingress and egress. Imagine for a moment the chaos that will result in KR Puram or in Belandur Railway station which are small stations in their own right.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 20 Apr 2016 21:23

The proposal to lay additional tracks towards Whitefield is going nowhere. You will have to deal with the Army and the Cantonment board for space, who will not budge. The existing twin tracks barely squeeze through in places and run almost by the Cantt and Army facility compound walls. Recently the Army derailed the Railways at Mhow. After the Indore-Mhow gauge conversion, IR wished to increase the rake size to 22 from 15 for trains originating from Mhow, and thus rakes could start from Mhow, instead from Indore, but the army nixed a land swap and so there is no land to increase platform lengths at Mhow. So instead of Mhow being a terminal and de-congest Indore, 22 coach trains have to start from Indore.

BMC was involved with a land swap with IR to give IR large pieces of the compound of the old Binny Mills in Bangalore. IR wanted to build pit lines in this property and de-congest SBC, where rakes are parked on platforms using up space. I am still not sure these additional pit lines will be enough. Trains coming on time from Mysore are regularly held up at Nayandahalli outer for lack of platform space and so arrive late.

There is no effective connection at multiple points between Namma Metro and IR. The minister KJ George said something like there will be a connection between Namma Metro and IR near or at Kengeri, but I fear he does not realize the enormous distance between the two stations.

Regarding Bypannahalli I am under the impression that not enough money was sanctioned this budget to build it up as an alternative terminal to de-congest SBC. In the meantime, I had posted pics of Banaswadi station and tracks around it where severe encroachment has taken place and this is now tandem with high rises being built on encroached land with names like Sierra Madre, La Chiquita etc etc, why not Dara Singh ka ghar. In case IR wishes to develop Hebbal, and such areas as an alternative station with pit lines whatever, the time has long passed with IR not doing enough to protect its property from greedy developers who will try anything like the recent PIL against HAL airport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Apr 2016 05:33

I do not think its possible to lay a above ground metro on orr..its far too late for that. Has to be 100% underground like in core area of delhi

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 21 Apr 2016 06:12

prahaar wrote:A 30 minute frequency or 15 minutes during peak hours and 1/2 hours during off-peak hours can work wonders to the geography of the route. The good part is not all trains need to stop at all stops. The fast/slow concept can be studied at intercity distances as well.

I think this is the way to go. For example from Mumbai to Delhi or Madras to Kolkata or Kolkata to Delhi. A train in every half an hour. It will be a massive impact. If the reservation is not there for one, let it be booked automatically for another. Similarly, if the date and places are given let the system pick up the trains etc. It will also give

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 21 Apr 2016 15:39

Singha wrote:I do not think its possible to lay a above ground metro on orr..its far too late for that. Has to be 100% underground like in core area of delhi

I see where you are coming from. The flyovers which have been constructed on Bangalore's ORR especially the Intel, Bellandur and Agara flyover have not been designed properly. If we were to build pillars in the middle of the roads, firstly the pillars would go way high and secondly they would block one lane permanently.

The problem with going underground is that it will take way too much time and cost. Consider the time taken to drill through 5-6 kms on the East-West corridor of Namma Metro. Now imagine the time an underground section of metro in ORR will take whose length will easily exceed 30-40 kms. We will not see a metro running for atleast 25 years.

There is an alternative way, but it is radical to say the least. Right now the elevated metros tracks are constructed in such a way that there can be two tracks, parallel to each other. For ORR we can have tracks like are there on Monorails, running on the edges of ORR road, i.e a single track. It will increase the cost of the construction, but it will still be less than boring through ORR. The stations can be over the flyovers so that we can have maximum collocation benefit with existing BMTC services. Though in light of Metro on ORR most of the 500 series volvos and other non-volvo services will cease completely.