Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 28 Apr 2016 04:17

SSundar wrote: Real hubs are 24-7 stations with a lot of frequent outbound connections and ample waiting spaces. This requires some good focus on developing stations as hubs.

Can you give a few examples? I have tried Google chacha and came up with naught. I am not aware of any major train stations either in continental Europe or Japan (the two regions where train travel is prevalent) that operate 24 hours a day. I believe most of them shut down at night (can also attest from personal experience).

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 28 Apr 2016 04:52

Kashi wrote:
SSundar wrote: Real hubs are 24-7 stations with a lot of frequent outbound connections and ample waiting spaces. This requires some good focus on developing stations as hubs.
Can you give a few examples? I have tried Google chacha and came up with naught. I am not aware of any major train stations either in continental Europe or Japan (the two regions where train travel is prevalent) that operate 24 hours a day. I believe most of them shut down at night (can also attest from personal experience).

I was answering the question about how people can expect to change trains in a remote, unsafe station in the middle of the night. The stations identified as hubs must have decent and safe waiting rooms that operate 24/7. Trains may not operate at all hours, but one should be able to arrive at the hub late in the night, rest safe in a well-lit area and comfortable seating, and take a morning train out to their destination. This is not very hard to facilitate.

To answer your question, I have at least once landed in Paris Gare du Lyon after 11:30 PM, bustling with activity. I also looked up for waiting room in London St. Pancras and found this thread.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2016 06:42

Such hubs already exist like the major junctions vijaywada for example
...300 trains daily from three trunk routes.

But for longer journeys nobody is going to tolerate moving all their luggage

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Apr 2016 06:51

a) what is the advantage of having 2 Talgo type trains Trivandrum>Delhi and Delhi>Jammu vs 1 Talgo type Trivandrum>Jammu assuming both are going full? i didnt quite get it. b) I am assuming u r saying that there will be many Talgo trains on Delhi>jammu sector , so even if Trivandrum>Delhi train gets late. the passengers will get some train? c) or u will give connecting tickets like in airlines..2 boarding passes for the connection also? what if in this scenario the 1st train gets inordinately late to arrive in Delhi..

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Apr 2016 07:00

@SSundar-ji: on the topic of transfer of passengers from one train to another, two thoughts spring to my mind:
a) Do what the airlines do. Checkin baggage and then get it transferred automatically. And create transit lounge etc.
b) Wilder idea: Would it be possible to detach the entire compartment with passengers in it and then attach it to the right train for onward journey ?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Apr 2016 07:10

srin..while we can debate ssunders idea abt hub/spoke ... one of the reasons airlines do it is to increase capacity utilisation. on IR where trains go full ..and more than full i wonder how practical is the idea. and just imagine the size of transit lounge to cater to N trains coming in a hub. on a long journey do i wait in the transit area on a chair or do i get a bed?

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 28 Apr 2016 08:22

manjgu wrote:a) what is the advantage of having 2 Talgo type trains Trivandrum>Delhi and Delhi>Jammu vs 1 Talgo type Trivandrum>Jammu assuming both are going full? i didnt quite get it. b) I am assuming u r saying that there will be many Talgo trains on Delhi>jammu sector , so even if Trivandrum>Delhi train gets late. the passengers will get some train? c) or u will give connecting tickets like in airlines..2 boarding passes for the connection also? what if in this scenario the 1st train gets inordinately late to arrive in Delhi..

Sorry, I am definitely having difficulty explaining it as clear as it is in my head - I understand this intuitively from an airline perspective

.

If 100% of the passengers boarding in Trivandrum are going to Jammu, there is no advantage in splitting this into two spokes. Reality is that this train is not 100% filled with Jammu passengers. Hence the intermediate stops in the first place. Any time you can go between two cities with 100% capacity, it is advantageous to go non-stop.

What you would do is run multiple frequencies from Delhi to Jammu, pool Jammu-bound passengers from all over India into Delhi, and run these multiple Delhi->Jammu frequencies at 100% capacity. That would be better than TVM->Jammu running at 40% capacity, Guwahati->Jammu running at 30% capacity and Mumbai->Jammu running at 40% capacity to Jammu. Better utilization of coach capacity.

Yes, passengers will get end-to-end tickets with two separate "boarding passes". If they miss their connection, they will take the next connection. That becomes more efficient when there are multiple frequencies to that connection.

This is how airlines manage hubs. There will never be enough traffic between Cochin & Houston, Texas to fill one plane profitably. So, Emirates would fly Cochin passengers into the Dubai hub and have them connect to a Houston flight along with all the other passengers from Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi cities. Advantage - the Cochin-Dubai flight is full and profitable, the Dubai-Houston flight is full and profitable.

On a personal note related to this topic, I have traveled on Jammu-Tawi express a bit between two TN cities during my college days. Students used to love that train because it always ran empty inside TN

.

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 28 Apr 2016 08:32

manjgu wrote:srin..while we can debate ssunders idea abt hub/spoke ... one of the reasons airlines do it is to increase capacity utilisation. on IR where trains go full ..and more than full i wonder how practical is the idea. and just imagine the size of transit lounge to cater to N trains coming in a hub. on a long journey do i wait in the transit area on a chair or do i get a bed?

I agree wholeheartedly. There is no use for the hub/spoke model if traffic between an origin and destination is 100%. There definitely are challenges to overcome, including capacity of the hubs. This isn't easy and needs a lot more creative thinking than our babus are willing to expend.

As Singha saar pointed out, aam aadmi would hate having to take his/her few bags from one train to another even if we were to give them free luggage carts and make the stations cart-friendly. It is really a different culture out there.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Apr 2016 09:07

srin wrote:b) Wilder idea: Would it be possible to detach the entire compartment with passengers in it and then attach it to the right train for onward journey ?

It is not as "wild" as you believe it to be

. And this practice was very popular even years before. It is known as "slip coach". Even in the late 1990s, Kanyakumari bound "Island Express" used to have a slip coach where all Kozhikode and Kannur bound passengers were alloted to. The PRS was smart enough to do this. At Palakkad (and later at Coimbatore), these coaches would get pulled out of the rake. The Madras-Mangalore Mail (or another Mail/Express train) was to land up at the same station in next 20-25 mins and these slip coaches used to get attached to this train. For the passenger he can sleep peacefully in his berth, while the shunting master and crew would do all the big work at the station.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2016 09:59

pic from march21. mizroam bairabi station gets first BG train from GHY

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2016 10:07

Extension of BG brings new hope for Barak Valley

Special correspondent

SILCHAR, April 17: Introduction of BG trains on Silchar-Lumding route opens a new vista of development for the landlocked region of Barak Valley and the hinterland states of Mizoram, Manipur and Tripura. People now await eagerly the run of train on Silchar-Agartala track on which work is progressing fast. Along with that, the work on Jiribam-Tupul (Imphal), Katakhal-Bhairabi, Karimganj-Mahisashan and Baroigram-Dullabhcherra tracks are also moving fast.

Karimganj-Mahisashan track when completed will not only facilitate inter valley movement of trains but also revive the rail line through Bangladesh via Sylhet to Kolkata, suspended since the Indo-Pakistan conflict of 1965. People are hopeful to think of a better tomorrow for economic development, social uplift as well as industrialization after being linked with the main land.

It is also a positive development that within the target time frame, Baroigram-Dullabhcherra link which will extend to Kanmoon of Mizoram is to take the connectivity to the interior areas. According to a NF Railway source here, if everything goes well, rolling stock is to start moving from the first part of 2017. It is indeed a redeeming feature to note that on the strategic Mahisashan track, stones are being deposited by ballast trains.

The source adds to say that Commissioner of Railway Safety (CRS) inspection is expected soon. Earthwork on Baroigram-Dullabhcherra track which covers 35 km is also making significant headway with the laying down of tracks. It is to be recalled that while flagging off the Silchar-New Delhi Sampark Kranti Express on February 19, Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu, Union Railway Minister, assured introduction of more passenger trains from Silchar after necessary infrastructure was made ready.

With the completion of the gauge conversion on the Jiribam-Tupul, Badarpur-Agartala, Karimganj-Mahisashan, Katakhal-Bhairabi and Baroigram-Dullabhcherra-Kanmoon, this valley of Barak along with the three neighbouring states will soon be on the rail map of north east. It will also be a big leap forward towards the goal of Ministry of Railways to connect all the capitals of north east and bring the so long neglected region on the broad gauge railway map of India. Connectivity and the restoration of peace and tranquility in the once disturbed region will no doubt hasten the pace of development.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2016 10:08

telegraphindia
Moreover, Kumar said the missing rail link between India and Myanmar is from Jiribam-Moreh (Indian side) and Tamu-Kaley (Myanmar portion). The alignment is also part of the southern corridor of the Trans-Asian Railway network, he said.

He said Indian Railways has undertaken the new 110km line project between Jiribam and Imphal while it is surveying the remaining portion of the missing 111km link between Imphal and Moreh. Kumar said for connectivity with Myanmar, the Jiribam-Imphal new link is under construction and a survey has been undertaken for linking Imphal-Moreh. This link, he said will connect Indian Railways with Myanmar Railways in future.

Moreover, he said the UN-ESCAP-Istanbul-Tehran-Islamabad container train service is already operational, and there is a proposal to extend the same to Calcutta and Dhaka, which could then make the South Asian region a major trade hub.

Kumar said the key challenges in cross-border railway transport include congestion and delays at border stations, complex border-crossing procedures and lack of harmonisation in the documents required for different countries, different operating rules and tariff structures, lack of qualified manpower to operate cross-border trains and others.

The BBIN Motor Vehicle Agreement for the Regulation of Passenger, Personal and Cargo Vehicular Traffic among Bangladesh, Bhutan, India and Myanmar was signed in June 2015.

The agreement envisages promoting safe, economical efficient and environmentally sound road transport in the sub-region and will further help each country in creating an institutional mechanism for regional integration. BBIN countries will benefit from mutual cross-border movement of passenger and goods for overall economic development of the region.

The people of the four countries will benefit through seamless movement of goods and passenger across borders.

As far as railway projects being undertaken in the Northeast are concerned, Kumar said there are 18 ongoing projects in the region covering 2,254km.

The likely date of completion of most of the projects ranges from 2016-17 to 2019-2020.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Apr 2016 12:53

Sachin wrote:
srin wrote:b) Wilder idea: Would it be possible to detach the entire compartment with passengers in it and then attach it to the right train for onward journey ?
It is not as "wild" as you believe it to be . And this practice was very popular even years before. It is known as "slip coach". Even in the late 1990s, Kanyakumari bound "Island Express" used to have a slip coach where all Kozhikode and Kannur bound passengers were alloted to. The PRS was smart enough to do this. At Palakkad (and later at Coimbatore), these coaches would get pulled out of the rake. The Madras-Mangalore Mail (or another Mail/Express train) was to land up at the same station in next 20-25 mins and these slip coaches used to get attached to this train. For the passenger he can sleep peacefully in his berth, while the shunting master and crew would do all the big work at the station.

Wow - that is interesting to know. After your post, I did some Googling and learnt there are "slip coaches" and "through coaches". Thanks !

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Apr 2016 13:02

SSundar wrote:
manjgu wrote:srin..while we can debate ssunders idea abt hub/spoke ... one of the reasons airlines do it is to increase capacity utilisation. on IR where trains go full ..and more than full i wonder how practical is the idea. and just imagine the size of transit lounge to cater to N trains coming in a hub. on a long journey do i wait in the transit area on a chair or do i get a bed?
I agree wholeheartedly. There is no use for the hub/spoke model if traffic between an origin and destination is 100%. There definitely are challenges to overcome, including capacity of the hubs. This isn't easy and needs a lot more creative thinking than our babus are willing to expend.

As Singha saar pointed out, aam aadmi would hate having to take his/her few bags from one train to another even if we were to give them free luggage carts and make the stations cart-friendly. It is really a different culture out there.

The advantage of hub and spoke isn't really in the hub. It is in the routes between the hubs. You can increase the number of lines between the hubs - call them trunk lines - and the frequency of the trains and also have fast / slow trains (express / passenger). And you don't have to invest as much in the "spoke" part. Same goes to the stations too.

So, if I want to go from Mysore to say Pune, instead of running another train, I'd take a train to Bangalore and then a very fast train to Pune on a high-capacity Chennai-Mumbai line. OTOH, if I want to get down in say Sangli (only station I remember from the old days of going to Bombay from BLR), I'd take slow train from Bangalore.

So it would be beneficial even if the traffic is 100% because you can prioritize easily where to invest in capacity expansion or in faster trains.
OTOH - transfer from one train to another needs to be as seamless as possible. What Sachin referred as slip trains would be good, but would probably be a logistic mess if used on a huge scale.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2016 14:46

generally think the ER trains are introduced only when there is a huge demand - like from yeshwantpur in blr, a lot of industrial workers go to jaipur and up-bihar and hence such trains are there.

you will not see such trains begin or end in places with few pax demand.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 28 Apr 2016 15:10

Singha wrote:generally think the ER trains are introduced only when there is a huge demand - like from yeshwantpur in blr, a lot of industrial workers go to jaipur and up-bihar and hence such trains are there.

you will not see such trains begin or end in places with few pax demand.

Or Yeshwantpur- Guwahati or Chennai-Dibrugarh trains. Traveled on the former last month all the way to Guwahati. The 22 coach train was full all the way through.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 28 Apr 2016 15:18

Sachin wrote:
srin wrote:b) Wilder idea: Would it be possible to detach the entire compartment with passengers in it and then attach it to the right train for onward journey ?
It is not as "wild" as you believe it to be . And this practice was very popular even years before. It is known as "slip coach"......

I also remember such arrangement existed on the Dhanbad - Alleppey express since the Eighties. There used to be separate bogies for Kurla bound passengers, starting from Dhanbad and these would be detached at the Rourkela station & then attached onto Mumbai bound trains.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 28 Apr 2016 15:35

The Rayalaseema/Haripriya express has a unique setup. Three trains starts from Tirupati, Kolhapur, and Secunderabad. They reach half an hour apart to Guntakal, where every train is bifurcated and reattached.
Train starting at Tirupati has 2 parts (one going to Kolhapur and one to Sec'bad).
Train starting at Kolhapur has 2 parts (one going to Tirupati and one to Sec'bad).
Train starting at Sec'bad has 2 parts (one going to Kolhapur and one to Tirupati).

Though in 2011 that set up was discontinued.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 28 Apr 2016 16:06

Bundelkhand Express runs as one train from BSB until Mahoba Junction from where a part goes to GWL and the other part goes to KURJ.

This is actually 2 trains (21108 and 11108). I travelled from BSB to KURJ to check out the beautiful Chandela creations. Some coaches have identical classifications (A1, B1 etc) with the only differentiator being the train number. Lots of confusion and fighting among people who were in the right coach number but the wrong train number with "TT ko bulao, hum nahi hilenge, humare pass bhi ticket hai, etc verbals.

So many brothers & sisters had to change coaches running dragging their luggage tonnage with minutes left for the train to depart. Much swearing all round.

This confusion must repeat everyday.

I flew on my return journey so missed the fun. One of the best holidays I had.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 28 Apr 2016 18:55

SSundar wrote:Sorry, I am definitely having difficulty explaining it as clear as it is in my head - I understand this intuitively from an airline perspective .

That's what I am saying too. Airline business is different from the rail business and concepts cannot be transferred from one to the other without some thought. Also, one of the places where IR differs is that it has a social mandate to provide connectivity to all corners of the country, which means some trains will need to be run to destinations that may not have much demand. Similarly, some connections like the "national integration" ones.

SSundar wrote:If 100% of the passengers boarding in Trivandrum are going to Jammu, there is no advantage in splitting this into two spokes. Reality is that this train is not 100% filled with Jammu passengers. Hence the intermediate stops in the first place. Any time you can go between two cities with 100% capacity, it is advantageous to go non-stop.
<snip>
On a personal note related to this topic, I have traveled on Jammu-Tawi express a bit between two TN cities during my college days. Students used to love that train because it always ran empty inside TN .

This is where the slip coaches Sachin saar mentioned comes in handy. That Jammu Tawi express you mention (Himsagar express, now running up to Katra, or the Navyug) runs in multiple avatars. IIRC, they are split up at Erode, with one part of the rake running through Kerala into Kanyakumari, and the other up to Tirunelveli via Karur and Dindigul. Even then, this train is not a very high demand train (I agree with you there), so it is not run daily. And the rake is still used up on other days for running to some other destination. In other trains (the Chennai-Katra Andaman express comes to mind), additional parcel coaches are added up to Delhi to max revenue of a low occupancy train. Net net, IR serves the social mandate, and still tries to max the utilization of the resources.

Sachin wrote:
srin wrote:b) Wilder idea: Would it be possible to detach the entire compartment with passengers in it and then attach it to the right train for onward journey ?
It is not as "wild" as you believe it to be . And this practice was very popular even years before. It is known as "slip coach". Even in the late 1990s, Kanyakumari bound "Island Express" used to have a slip coach where all Kozhikode and Kannur bound passengers were alloted to. The PRS was smart enough to do this. At Palakkad (and later at Coimbatore), these coaches would get pulled out of the rake. The Madras-Mangalore Mail (or another Mail/Express train) was to land up at the same station in next 20-25 mins and these slip coaches used to get attached to this train. For the passenger he can sleep peacefully in his berth, while the shunting master and crew would do all the big work at the station.

Sometimes, it feels our discussions come full circle - IR has already considered most of these problems and has made provisions for them in the past

. Nothing wrong with it, just feels good that the IR babus have been thinking about these problems and had addressed them to an extent in the past. One less baboon-giri, if you will

. Another facility most people don't know about is the break journey option - though it sounds different, people can use it to book their tickets on different trains to get the advantage of telescopic fares, and provision of waiting rooms and retiring rooms for such passengers waiting on connections. In short, some infra towards what SSundar saar suggests already exists, but it will not scale like the airlines unless the entire rail network is fully revamped.

srin wrote:What Sachin referred as slip trains would be good, but would probably be a logistic mess if used on a huge scale.

Yes, it is, which is why IR is moving away from slip coaches where possible. Shunting and assembling coaches in a 24 coach rake with passengers inside is a very time consuming process, and most junctions are busy enough to not have the spare track capacity for all this shunting. These days, the slip coaches are done mostly for non-daily trains that have lower demand and run to fulfill the social mandate. Daily trains like the Island are not using slip coaches anymore - at best, they will remove some coaches at an intermediate station like what's done with Nilagiri express at CBE.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Apr 2016 00:13

sabke paas ticket hona chayee.

the IR ticketing system allowed me to book to & fro return starting today and return yesterday too.

it doesn't have time check. the problem happened because of not me, but the ticketing afsar. He put the same date, 12pm instead of next day 00 hours.

what the heck. can't forget that because my dad had to slip due to extensive walking and lost his knees.

people, I tell you don't care about others at all when they make things up

lesson: don't believe your system. check the dates manually.
story: 30 years back

ps: slamming a talgo or two doesn't answer services.
ask what people want and make people happy to use the system is what vikas is all about

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Apr 2016 09:39

arshyam wrote:Yes, it is, which is why IR is moving away from slip coaches where possible. Shunting and assembling coaches in a 24 coach rake with passengers inside is a very time consuming process, and most junctions are busy enough to not have the spare track capacity for all this shunting.

This is where perhaps the concept of "train sets" may be of good use. Perhaps not for "Express/Mail trains", but for the local commuter trains. Imagine a train-set starting from say Yeshwantpur Jn, who comes all the way till Bayyappanahalli Jn. In say 7-10 minutes, this train splits into two. One goes towards Whitefield and beyond, and another goes towards Bellandur Road, Carmelaram and Hosur. But such a system may require tweaking in on the signals (a platform may have to hold two trains who come as one, and split into two), and the coupling and de-coupling of trains should be easily doable. And then off course there is the staffing problem (adequate crew to be on board to drive both trains beyond a certain point).

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 Apr 2016 10:09

Sachin wrote:
arshyam wrote:Yes, it is, which is why IR is moving away from slip coaches where possible. Shunting and assembling coaches in a 24 coach rake with passengers inside is a very time consuming process, and most junctions are busy enough to not have the spare track capacity for all this shunting.
This is where perhaps the concept of "train sets" may be of good use. Perhaps not for "Express/Mail trains", but for the local commuter trains. Imagine a train-set starting from say Yeshwantpur Jn, who comes all the way till Bayyappanahalli Jn. In say 7-10 minutes, this train splits into two. One goes towards Whitefield and beyond, and another goes towards Bellandur Road, Carmelaram and Hosur. But such a system may require tweaking in on the signals (a platform may have to hold two trains who come as one, and split into two), and the coupling and de-coupling of trains should be easily doable. And then off course there is the staffing problem (adequate crew to be on board to drive both trains beyond a certain point).

There is already such a train which splits into two at a junction -- half goes to Vijayawada, the other half to Hyderabad. Took this train some years back. Can't recall which one it was.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Apr 2016 15:07

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/high ... 49547.html

Rail passengers in India may soon have the luxury of Spanish coaches on the Rajdhani and Shatabdi express trains. The existing LHB coaches will be replaced if the railways' experiment with high speed Talgo trains is successful.
Railways will be procuring these trains that have the advantage of being faster, cost effective and energy-efficient. Railway officials said each of the coaches of these trains would save up to Rs 1 crore as compared to the LHB coaches currently being used in Rajdhani and Shatabdi trains
A senior rail ministry official said the average cost of manufacturing LHB coaches is around Rs 2.75 crore for each unit while the Talgo trains cost only Rs 1.7 crore per coach. This will help railways save at least Rs 1 crore per coach besides saving upto 30 per cent of electricity as compared to the trains being used in India.
Officials said the average speed of these light weight aerodynamic coaches can be 50 per cent higher than the Rajdhani and Shatabdi trains and hence the travel time will come down significantly.
The Delhi-Mumbai Rajdhani Express runs at an average speed of 85 km per hour while the Talgo trains can maintain the average speed of 125 km per hour. At this speed, the journey between Delhi and Mumbai can be completed in about 12 hours as compared to the 17 hours at present.

"If the trial runs are successful, the railways may procure these trains through global tender. The actual purchase cost could be even less than what it costs now," said a senior official. "Light weight Talgo coaches are extremely energy efficient. In a standard comparison, Talgo trains can consume 30 per cent less energy than any other train in the market. This reduction in energy consumption consequently contributes to a considerable saving in operating costs," he said.
Talgo trains are capable of hitting a maximum speed of 200 km per hour but trials will only be conducted at the speed of 150-160 km per hour.
Since these trains are light weight with exceptional rolling dynamics, they can maintain high speed even on sharp curves. The Spanish train-maker has offered to test-run its lighter and faster trains free of cost on the existing Indian Railways network. The first Talgo train trial will be conducted on the Bareilly-Moradabad rail route at a maximum speed of 115 kmph for oscillation test, followed by trials on Mathura-Palwal corridor and Delhi-Mumbai corridor. Nine coaches of Talgo trains have already arrived at Mumbai port from Barcelona.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 29 Apr 2016 17:26

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/othe ... 961227.cms

Citing one of the biggest selling points of these coaches, Ravinder Bhakar, Chief Public Relations Officer of Western Railway, said, "The Talgo coaches have the ability to bring down our energy bills by 30 per cent." Hemant Kumar, member of the railway board, said, "The first Talgo train trial will be conducted between Bareilly and Moradabad at a maximum speed of 110 kmph for an oscillation test. This will be followed by another trial between Palwal and Mathura at a maximum speed of 180 kmph. The third one will be carried out between Delhi and Mumbai at the coaches' maximum speed of 200 kmph.

Is Talgo supplying the locomotives for this train? Or will they use the WAP5? Or is this Talgo a EMU trainset?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 29 Apr 2016 19:26

Old news but there has been a delay in EMU trainsets bid finalization.

http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... ed/203767/

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Apr 2016 19:37

ldev wrote:http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/othe ... 961227.cms

Citing one of the biggest selling points of these coaches, Ravinder Bhakar, Chief Public Relations Officer of Western Railway, said, "The Talgo coaches have the ability to bring down our energy bills by 30 per cent." Hemant Kumar, member of the railway board, said, "The first Talgo train trial will be conducted between Bareilly and Moradabad at a maximum speed of 110 kmph for an oscillation test. This will be followed by another trial between Palwal and Mathura at a maximum speed of 180 kmph. The third one will be carried out between Delhi and Mumbai at the coaches' maximum speed of 200 kmph.
Is Talgo supplying the locomotives for this train? Or will they use the WAP5? Or is this Talgo a EMU trainset?

Only the coaches, I think. That's the USP.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 29 Apr 2016 20:38

SanjayC wrote:
There is already such a train which splits into two at a junction -- half goes to Vijayawada, the other half to Hyderabad. Took this train some years back. Can't recall which one it was.

Thats the Dakshin or Link express

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Apr 2016 21:01

Talgo is a technology for train articulation (Talgo is an acronym and the first 2 letters stands for train articulated in Spanish), with bogies installed at the ends between two coaches, rather than separately under coaches. The design according to them enables trains to take tighter curves at higher speeds without swaying. The train set can be pulled by any locomotive.

In Spain they have Talgo trainsets running on both their regular high speed rail (Alta Velocidad Espanola) and the slower semi-high speed and fast commuter lines. I have traveled on both the AVE and Talgo semi high speed trains. I have no idea just how much the system helped, but AVE was not nearly smooth a ride as Shinkansen, which was on another level.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 29 Apr 2016 21:13

In that case will not the Indian engine be a problem or is it that the engine need not have that technology?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Apr 2016 21:17

Talgo is a technology for connecting the coaches to each other, not the engine which is a separate entity with its own bogies. The engine can be whatever they hook up. I assume IRs experiments will just attempt to validate Talgo's claims that the coaches can take curves at higher speeds while remaining more stable, enabling faster semi-high speed operations.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 30 Apr 2016 01:58

Wiki says the following about the WAP5, the fastest electric locomotive currently available on the Indian Railways:

Imported in 1995 from Switzerland and used on premier express trains. Being built by CLW since 2000. 6000 hp maximum, 5450 hp continuous. Highly powerful class. Bo-Bo type locos. Max speed tested for 184 kmph. Maximum permissible speed 160 kmph.

All other locomotives are slower. The Gatiman express with a 160 kmph max speed is hauled by this engine. I really wonder which engine will be used for these trials and if the trials are successful, what engine will be used to haul the TALGO trains regularly? If bogie articulation is what makes the coaches faster around curves then should not the engine have the same technology? Also, they need an engine capable of 200 kmph.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2016 02:13

WAP-5 is a Re 460 based platform. It is capable of ~225km/h but is software limited to slower speeds by RDSO, unless used on tracks with appropriate signaling capability and pulling coaches capable of higher speeds. The LHB coaches are rated upto 180-200km/h, but currently run at 160km/h max on the Shatabdi and other fast trains.

My guess is that IR envisions something like the RENFE Altaria or Alvia trains running at 200-225km/h max. Those coaches in the India Today article posted earlier have Altaria logo on them after all.

However SSC India says that the Talgo coaches being used in India are Talgo 9, which are also being used on the Berlin-Moscow line. Here's the Russian railway service using Talgo 9s: Strizh.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 30 Apr 2016 02:56

Thanks Suraj.

Did some googling and found that the Talgo 9 coaches in Russia on the Moscow-Nizhny Novgorod line cover a distance of 461 km in 3 hr and 30 minutes on the train's regular schedule. If track conditions are similar to India then the average speed of about 130 kmph, which is what IR is hoping to accomplish on the Delhi-Mumbai route using Talgo coaches,is a huge increase from the current average speed of 80-90 kmph for the Rajdhani Express.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2016 03:39

130km/h average on Mumbai-Delhi Rajdhani would be a dramatic improvement. Currently it takes 15h45m to do 1385km. At 130km/h average, it would take 10h45m . That means it can become a contender on the overnight business market: leave either city around 8-10PM, get to the other at 6-8am. Right now it leaves around 4:30pm in both directions and reaches destination around 8:30am next day.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2016 05:46

The wap4 and wap7 which are next big dog in the line may also be capable of hauling at those speeds. Wap4 is taller cabin than wap5 and used to haul rajdhanis in 90s

Both are still in wide use i think

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2016 06:53

My favourite is the tall cabin wap4 of my student days...
Red , blasting noises of cooling fans inside, .... Huge long rajdhani coaches behind..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2016 06:54

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2016 07:01

The WAP-4 is a really good looking loco. IR did a great job with its design. However, its top speed is 140km/h in regular operation, and can max out at 165km/h I think. Not nearly fast enough for semi-high speed rail. Perhaps with an internal redesign and the use of more powerful traction motors it can. The WAP-4 itself is a variant of the WAP-1 with more powerful Hitachi traction motors than the Alstom motors used in the WAP-1.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2016 07:21

Yes i agree the new smaller more powerful locos are the future

Just a old washed up tomcat pilot watching the jsfs and hornets take off and pining for the noisy growl of the p&w engines and manual stick driven cat takeoff