Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 487
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A Nandy » 30 Apr 2016 09:23

http://www.talgo.com/pdf/corporativoIng.pdf

Talgo coaches seem to have automatic doors. That in itself should be a improvement safety wise over the current situation.

Is the train being tested in India Talgo 250 or Talgo 9? Not sure.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8164
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Sachin » 30 Apr 2016 13:27

ldev wrote:Is Talgo supplying the locomotives for this train? Or will they use the WAP5? Or is this Talgo a EMU trainset?

From the image of the Talgo raked given here, looks like it is a "train set". Notice the front coach. That coach as two set of wind shields etc. This most likely for the driver to operate the train. Have seen similar rakes in UK. If another train set gets added to this one, the driver's cab here would just get locked up, and the vestibules etc. would all get connected up.

prashanth
BRFite
Posts: 536
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 16:50
Location: Barad- dyr

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby prashanth » 30 Apr 2016 17:32

chetak wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/high ... 49547.html
A senior rail ministry official said the average cost of manufacturing LHB coaches is around Rs 2.75 crore for each unit while the Talgo trains cost only Rs 1.7 crore per coach. This will help railways save at least Rs 1 crore per coach besides saving upto 30 per cent of electricity as compared to the trains being used in India.



I always thought light weight coach designs use high strength/weight ratio steel (LHB) which is more expensive than the ordinary steel. Talgo is promising to provide coaches that are less expensive and lighter than LHB. What gives about safety?
Isn't it the same company whose train toppled around a bend in 2013? Hope IR treads carefully on this track.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JTull » 30 Apr 2016 18:41

Sachin wrote:
ldev wrote:Is Talgo supplying the locomotives for this train? Or will they use the WAP5? Or is this Talgo a EMU trainset?

From the image of the Talgo raked given here, looks like it is a "train set". Notice the front coach. That coach as two set of wind shields etc. This most likely for the driver to operate the train. Have seen similar rakes in UK. If another train set gets added to this one, the driver's cab here would just get locked up, and the vestibules etc. would all get connected up.


These are planned to be tested with an Indian locomotive.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8164
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Sachin » 30 Apr 2016 19:45

JTull wrote:These are planned to be tested with an Indian locomotive.

Why should they test this with an Indian loco? If the "train set" actually shown in the photograph is coming here; looks like it is an EMU and would have the driving mechanism in the rake itself.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 30 Apr 2016 21:26

prashanth wrote:Isn't it the same company whose train toppled around a bend in 2013? Hope IR treads carefully on this track.

That was driver error. Santiago de Compostela HSR accident
Sachin wrote:Why should they test this with an Indian loco? If the "train set" actually shown in the photograph is coming here; looks like it is an EMU and would have the driving mechanism in the rake itself.

None of the RENFE HSR Talgo systems are EMUs - semi high speed and AVE Talgos are all locomotive driven. The same Talgo 9s on the Russian train posted in the last page use a Russian loco. There's a nice high res pic on the wikipedia article too.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 24867
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 30 Apr 2016 21:27

Facilities of Cancellation of PRS counter tickets through IRCTC
website and 139 & Acceptance of International Debit and Credit
Cards launched


Railway Minister announces two more passenger friendly services namely \

(i) Cancellation of PRS counter tickets through IRCTC website and 139
(ii) Acceptance of International Debit and Credit Cards for payment for e-ticketing through IRCTC website

Working on the fast track to implement Rail Budget Announcements of 2016-17 ranging from improving passenger amenities to infrastructure development, Minister of Railways Shri Suresh Prabhkar Prabhu in a programme held today i.e. 29.04.2016 at Rail Bhawan inaugurated two very important budget announcements of (i) Cancellation of PRS counter tickets through IRCTC website and 139(IVRS & SMS) and (ii) Acceptance of International Debit and Credit Cards for payment for e-ticketing through IRCTC website. Shri Manoj Sinha, Minister of State for Railway was specially present to grace the occasion. Chairman, Railway Board, Shri A.K. Mittal, Member Traffic, Railway Board, Shri Mohd. Jamshed and other Board Members were present on the occasion.

Speaking on the occasion about these services, Shri Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu, said that the Indian Railways is the second largest commercial organization of the world which has lot of challenges before it becomes of world standard. He said that Railways is a big organization and its some areas need complete revamping and thus multiple strategies need to adopted and implemented to improve in all spheres. He said that Railways income generation and expenditure needs to be accounted closely so that there can be best use of the public money. He said that Railways principal source of revenue is freight and passenger fares which is 2/3 and 1/3 respectively and thus Railways’ development in all respect depends solely on the improvement of its both these services. He said that the service of Cancellation of PRS counter tickets through IRCTC website & 139 and Acceptance of International Debit and Credit Cards for payment for e-ticketing through IRCTC website is a step towards digital technology which will reduce cash handling. He assured more passenger friendly services in the coming time.

Speaking on the occasion, Minister of State for Railways Shri Manoj Sinha said that development of Railways is not a single-handed task and thus concerted efforts are necessary which railway personnel are doing day and day out. In a very short span of time of around two months, as many as 8 budget announcements have been fully implemented by the Railway Ministry which has been possible by the mechanised system.

Salient Features Of the Schemes Launched : -
Cancellation of PRS counter tickets through IRCTC website and through 139 (IVRS and SMS)

Purpose:

To facilitate passengers having confirmed PRS counter tickets to cancel the ticket within the permitted time limit under Refund Rule 2015. PRS counter tickets can be cancelled through:

(i) IRCTC website (http://www.irctc.co.in) or
(ii) 139

The permissible refundable amount shall be collected only at the journey commencing station or nearby satellite PRS locations defined by Zonal Railway within the prescribed time limit.

Facility Available only for Fully confirmed system tickets:
· In normal circumstances only and not in case of late running of trains/cancellation of trains etc.,
· Where the mobile number has been given at the time of booking the ticket.
· Upto 4 hours before the scheduled departure of the train.

Collection of Refund Amount

· Refund of fare amount shall be collected only at the journey commencing station or nearby satellite PRS locations defined by Zonal Railway as under:-

(a) During first two hours of the opening of PRS counters on the next day for the tickets for the trains whose scheduled departure time is (i) between 1801 hours and 0600 hours.
(b) Upto 4 hours after the scheduled departure of the train during the working hours of PRS counters/current counters/special counters where cancellation is permitted round the clock on the tickets for the trains whose scheduled departure time is (i) between 0601 hours and 1800 hours.
(c) No refund of amount would be given after the above mentioned prescribed time limit.

Benefits:

Apart from cancellation across PRS counter, the passengers having confirmed PRS counter ticket can cancel the same within the prescribed time limit as per Refund Rule 2015 as under:-
(i). Through IRCTC website (http://www.irctc.co.in)
(Steps how to cancel confirmed PRS counter ticket is placed at Annexure-I Below) or
(ii) Through 139
(Steps how to cancel confirmed PRS counter ticket is placed at Annexure-II Below)

CANCELLATION THROUGH IRCTC WEBSITE: (Annexure-I)

* A new page will be given on IRCTC website (http://www.irctc.co.in) without any login ID for purpose of cancellation of PRS counter tickets.
* Passenger will be asked to enter the PNR number & Train number along with captcha.
* The details entered by passenger shall be validated and an OTP will be sent to the passenger to his mobile number given at the time of booking the ticket. The OTP received on the mobile will be entered by the passenger in the web page and it will be validated by the system.
* After receiving the confirmation OTP number from the passenger, full cancellation of PNR will be done and PNR will be marked as Cancelled but not refunded in the system. Seat/berth will be released and would be made available for booking both at PRS & IRCTC Website. Refund amount due will also be displayed to the passenger on the website.
* An SMS will be sent to the passenger with PNR and fare details - ”Your ticket has been cancelled. PNR, xxxxxx, Amt,xxxxx. Refund of fare amount shall be collected only at the journey commencing station or nearby satellite PRS locations as per the notified time”.
* All the Privilege/Duty pass/PTOs/complimentary pass tickets shall be allowed to be cancelled through website or through 139.
* All types of PNRs including i-tickets (after printing) and system tickets booked across counter/post office/YTSK/Go India terminals/Bank terminals etc.’ will be allowed to be cancelled on website except the following:

(a). Circular Journey tickets and onwards tickets booked against CJT.
(b). Foreign tourists PNRs against which berth allotment has been done
(c). ATAS generated new PNR
(d). Duplicate ticket.
(e). Cluster ticket and pre-bought ticket.

CANCELLATION THROUGH 139: (Annexure-II)

Rail Ticket booked through Railway Reservation counter can be cancelled through Railway Enquiry 139. Service will be available on 139:
(a). IVR with Agent Assistance
b). SMS Service

(a). Cancel through 139 using IVR(Agent Assistance)

(i). Customer will call on 139 and select Option ‘6’ from IVR main menu.
(ii). IVR will ask whether it is Counter Ticket or E- Ticket. Press 1 for Counter Ticket or Press 2 for E-Ticket.
(iii). In case customer selects E-Ticket option, IVR will play a message “Currently ticket booked through Railway Reservation Counter only can be cancelled through 139. Press 8 to go back to main menu”

1. Once customer selects Counter Ticket option, call will be transferred to agent for cancellation.
2. Agent will ask the following information from customer to process the cancellation.
a. PNR Number
b. Train Number

3. Agent will retrieve ticket information from the server and confirm it with the customer.
4. After ticket details confirmation, agent will click on “Generate OTP” button to generate the OTP. System will validate the calling number of customer with the number mentioned in ticket details from the system.
5. If mobile number validation fails, agent will advise the customer to call from the same number mentioned at the time of booking the ticket. If number is successfully validated, OTP will be delivered on passenger’s mobile number which he would convey to agent.
6. Agent will enter OTP on CRM and will click “Submit” button to process the cancellation. Ticket will be cancelled and refundable amount will be display on agent screen. Agent will communicate the same refundable amount to customer.
7. Customer has to collect the permissible refundable amount across the PRS counter within the prescribed time limit.

(b) Cancellation through SMS to 139:

(i). User has to send PNR Number & Train Number to 139 in the syntax given below:

CANCEL<PNR Number><Train Number> to 139

Example: CANCEL 2303529769 12420

(ii). User will get below response from 139 after mobile number verification:
“Dear User, We have received cancellation request against PNR number 2303529769, OTP against this request is 123456. To confirm ticket cancellation send SMS OTP 123456 to 139.
(iii). User has to send OTP number received back to 139 for second level of confirmation.

OTP <OTP received on Passenger Mobile Number> to 139

Example: OTP 123456

User will get below response from 139:
“Dear User, Your ticket with PNR number 2303529769 has been cancelled, refundable amount is Rs. ----.”

(iv) Passenger has to collect the permissible refundable amount within prescribed time limit across the PRS counter.
Acceptance of International Debit and Credit Cards for payment for e-ticketing through IRCTC website

INTERNATIONAL CREDIT CARDS FOR PAYMENT OF TICKETS ON IRCTC WEBSITE
Purpose:

At present, only American Express International Credit Cards are accepted at IRCTC portal through American Express (AMEX) Payment Gateway. Other International Cards are not accepted for payments as on date.
IRCTC will now permit other International Credit/Debit Cards issued outside India also for booking of e-tickets through IRCTC website. These International Credit/Debit Cards will be used for payment through the payment gateway provided by M/s.Atom Technologies.

Conditions:

4% of transaction value (inclusive taxes as applicable) shall be levied for each transaction through the International Credit/Debit Cards.
This payment option is available only when ticket is booked at least 2 days in advance of journey date.
This payment option is not available for booking of “Tatkal” or “Premium Tatkal” quota tickets.
This payment option is not available for booking of tickets in “Premium trains”.
Process:
Select the “International Cards powered by Atom” payment option present under ‘Payment Gateway/Credit Card’ category at payment page.
Input all the mandatory details for payment at the Gateway page, such as Card Number, Name, Expiry, CVV, Bank Name, mobile number, e-mail and address.
After submission of all the details, ticket will be booked in case of successful payment response received from the Bank/Payment Gateway.

Benefits:
Acceptance of all International Credit/Debit Cards will fulfil the longstanding demand of foreign tourists as they will be able to book e-tickets directly and will no longer depend on other Agencies for this purpose.


Take the option of Cancellation by SMS, you may be charged Premium SMS rate but it will be simple.


Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 01 May 2016 01:37

This article addresses most of the questions about the Talgo system being tested by IR:
Railways to tango with Talgo on Mum-Delhi route
The country's most prestigious train route — the Mumbai-Delhi one — is all set for its tryst with a made-in-Spain Talgo train. The first-ever trial of a completely imported trainset on the Indian Railways is expected to begin in the last week of May, tentatively the 25th, in North Central Railway's Mathura-Palwal section. Nine coaches of the train, built by Spanish rolling stock manufacturer Talgo, have already arrived at the JNPT in Mumbai and custom clearances are expected to be completed by May 5.

While the Vehicle Dynamics Simulation report conducted by Talgo on Indian tracks has certified the speed at 198kmph, railway officials told dna that the Mathura trial will be at a standard 180kmph. "The trial will use nine coaches of the train, one of which will have oscillograph and the other speed trial equipment, and the train will be pulled by a WDP4 or WAP 5 locomotive capable of pulling top speeds of 180kmph," said an official.

The most striking detail about these trains is that unlike Indian trains, which have a bogie and wheel-set on both ends of the coach, these Talgo trains have just one wheel-set in the middle of the coach. This allows better access to the train coach as it is much lower, officials said.

Train configurations
Single-axle end coach called TG4 by Talgo
One first-class and one VIP coach called TA4
One cafetaria coach called TC4
Four second-class coaches called TB4
One end-car called TB4z


JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JTull » 01 May 2016 01:41

Sachin wrote:
JTull wrote:These are planned to be tested with an Indian locomotive.

Why should they test this with an Indian loco? If the "train set" actually shown in the photograph is coming here; looks like it is an EMU and would have the driving mechanism in the rake itself.


I can't find the link but somewhere it clearly said that an IR locomotive will be used. Suraj's post above lists all the 9 coaches and there isn't a mention of a driving unit.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 01 May 2016 01:57

There IS a driving unit mentioned - it states clearly that they will use a WDP4 or WAP5, meaning they plan to run these trains on both electrified and non electrified routes pulled by those two locos.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JTull » 01 May 2016 02:15

Yes, but only 9 coaches arrived from Spain (Link). So the loco must be from local stock and the trainset is not self driving.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 01 May 2016 02:25

Yes, and that's exactly what I've been saying since my first post on the topic in the last page. The Talgo system is not an EMU system, and does not require a dedicated 'Talgo specific' locomotive. Anything will do. Even in Spain, you can see a Talgo trainset being pulled by normal locomotives. In fact there are youtube videos of Talgo trains pulled by Re 460s, which our own WAP5 is based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqJsl_xwgc4

In the video you can see the bogies mounted between the coaches, which is what the Talgo technology is, basically.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 01 May 2016 02:40

The Russian one is hauled by EP20.


Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 01 May 2016 02:59

I always thought only train sets could employ tilting technology, but apparently these Talgo coaches can do so too.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 171_1.html

Fast-moving trains require higher banking of outer curves on tracks and while negotiating less banked curves have to slow down to avoid passenger discomfort or skid off the track. Talgo has found a solution to this problem in a design that allows tilting of the superstructure of the coach without modifying the track.

In addition, the bogies are axle-less (to allow independent rotation of wheels) and the superstructure is lighter than conventional trains - something Talgo specialises in. In fact, it is the only company in the world to use tilting technology.

"Talgo could use the tilting technology to ensure smooth running of trains with higher speed at curves," says Sujeet Mishra, an officer of the Indian Railways Service of Electrical Engineers and a research scholar at IIT-BHU.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11213
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gagan » 01 May 2016 04:47

Wrt the cost of the Talgo coaches being 1.7 crore vs 2.4 crore for the LHB coaches, please do bear in mind that the Talgo coach is HALF the size of the LHB.
It is like the size of half the bogie as in a general class seater coach (the ones which had a door in the middle too)
There are single wheels IN BETWEEN two coaches, and the bogie tilts itself towards the concave side on the curves, instead of the conventional bogie tilting in the other direction, trying to fly off centripetally!
Have to wait until one of the DDMs snaps a pic of the engine with the long snout.

I suspect that the IR has been eyeing the Talgos atleast since the vajpayee era. There were IR ads in newspapers featuring Talgo trains

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 01 May 2016 08:52

back in 80s the UK had something called APT (advanced passenger train) featuring tilting technology.
my father purchased me a enclyopedia of transport around 1984 which had this.

in its day it was better than the pioneering Talgo system, but as usual the british politicians and press messed up their excellent engineering work and killed it :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train

Talgo introduced the first practical design for a tilting carriage in the late 1950s. This consisted of a single bogie placed between the train cars with the car bodies suspended from an A-frame centered on the bogie with a pivot near the top. When the train rounded a bend, the centrifugal forces caused the car body to swing out like a pendulum, reaching the proper tilt angle naturally. However, this system had a distinct delay between entering the curve and the body swinging out, and then swung past this angle and then oscillated briefly until settling at the right angle. When traversing a series of curves, like in a switchyard, it tended to swing about alarmingly.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 01 May 2016 08:57

bombardier licensed the tech from british rail and sold it back as this current operating class

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_221

but these are really small width trains with 4 seats in each row and 5 coaches.

another successful line of tilting trains is Fiats Pendolino used in 11 nations incl China CRH5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendolino
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Pendolino

The name, Pendolino, is used to identify a family of high-speed, tilting-technology trains, produced in Italy. These trains owe their name (pendolino can mean 'small pendulum' in Italian) to the mechanism enabling them to tilt when going round a bend. The maximum tilt of 8 degrees allows the trains to reach a speed that is up to 35% higher than for conventional trains, whilst assuring the greatest safety and comfort for passengers. Developed by Alstom Ferroviaria, which inherited tilting technology (including that of the British Advanced Passenger Train) after its acquisition of former producer Fiat Ferroviaria, they are built at Alstom’s Savigliano plants, in Piedmont, as well as in Sesto San Giovanni near Milan (which will supply the traction converters).



^^^ so in interest of fair competition, IR will need to float a global tender and see if the other two respond and want to compete. only if they do not join the fray, Talgo will have a clear run to the deal table.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 01 May 2016 09:05

so APT and Talgo are two unique and ancient bloodlines of tiling train nobility....lycans and vampires...

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2804
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby prahaar » 01 May 2016 09:57

Based on first hand Pendolino experience, they provide a very comfortable ride at a moderately high speed, covering 200KM in 1.5 hours. The fit and finish of the coaches is airline quality, although not sure about the hauling capacity. In Finland, I have seen two concatenated rakes during peak hours. The ticket price is steepish even for Finnish Railway standards.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 01 May 2016 10:45

Hope our hordes treat these puppies well
Airline fittings cannot take the rough handling typical ir coaches are subjected to

M Joshi
BRFite
Posts: 298
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby M Joshi » 01 May 2016 13:36

Talgo is only sending its coaches & not the engines. Engines that would be used, would be Indian Railways. The difference in speed in both the cases even though while using the same IR engines is that IR's current coaches use 8 wheels for each coach in 2 sets of 4 each. Each set of 4 wheels is at the opposite ends of a coach. Whereas the Talgo coaches use only 2 wheels at each ends & those too are shared by two coaches. So for a 10 coach train of current IR stock total no of wheels are 80, excluding engines. For Talgo the same no is 22 wheels. Downside is though that the length of each coach is shorter by a few meters.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Kashi » 01 May 2016 14:36

M Joshi wrote:For Talgo the same no is 22 wheels. Downside is though that the length of each coach is shorter by a few meters.


How feasible would it be to make up the shortfall by adding extra coaches?

M Joshi
BRFite
Posts: 298
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby M Joshi » 01 May 2016 14:47

Kashi wrote:
M Joshi wrote:For Talgo the same no is 22 wheels. Downside is though that the length of each coach is shorter by a few meters.


How feasible would it be to make up the shortfall by adding extra coaches?


Would again affect the speed. If you see a Talgo 300+ kmph train, they've 4 coaches with 2 engines on both ends! So to achieve 200kmph with our current engines, no. of coaches would be less. For speeds of 160-180 kmph more coaches can be added.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2007
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby ldev » 01 May 2016 18:01

The Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod Talgo train hauled by an EP 20 engine with 20 coaches i.e. 18 passenger coaches and 2 technical coaches. Has a top speed of 200 kmph and the 18 coaches seat 409 passengers. Maybe IR may cram more passengers by making the seat pitch smaller?


JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JTull » 01 May 2016 21:05

IMHO, for Del-Mum Rajdhanis, if the ride is 12hrs instead of 17 then smaller coaches and fewer coachers per train are fine if they were to increase the frequency to, say hourly.

But then the video of Russian tests shows a trainset with 20 coaches.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2007
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby ldev » 01 May 2016 21:38

Do not want to sound like a sales brochure for these Talgo trains, but the video below really explains as to why the coach suspension is unique, watch especially between 0.43 and 1.35. It demonstrates why they can take curves faster.


Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 01 May 2016 22:49

ldev wrote:The Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod Talgo train hauled by an EP 20 engine with 20 coaches i.e. 18 passenger coaches and 2 technical coaches. Has a top speed of 200 kmph and the 18 coaches seat 409 passengers. Maybe IR may cram more passengers by making the seat pitch smaller?

With a power output of 9600hp, the EP20 (a Russian railways-Alstom joint venture) is 50% more powerful than the 6000hp WAP-5s. The most powerful locos we have are the 6500hp WAP-7s, but they have lower top speed due to their gearing. If continuous 200km/h runs require such high power locomotives, we will need a new high speed electric passenger loco from IR. The Alstom Prima II locos from the new FDI plant in Bihar are meant for the DFC, and are 12600hp locos with a 130km/h top speed, geared for freight hauling and not passenger service, from what I have read.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 02 May 2016 07:12

ge has bagged the diessl loco plant near patna but again
Primarily for beefy goods locos capable of hauling 10,000t mineral and long container trains.

I think ir vision with talgo is just systemwide running of some trains at avg of 120-130 up from 90 at present.
This might need some spurts at 160 to make up for the stops.

Far more cost effective than nimitz class dedicated hsr lines and uber trainsets

So the wap5 is capable of that...it can be marginally changed to more power if needed

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 02 May 2016 07:30

Pretty much any ir train at present can go as fast as rajdhani or shatabdi..its just these munnas get special clearance at every crossing and lesser stops.

Triple tracking will likely raise avg speeds of all trains by 25kmph as railway minister said

Of necessity many trains will have more stops and lower avg speed

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14418
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 02 May 2016 10:23

Absolutely. One of the first things that the Chinese railways did during their 1990s modernization was triple and quad tracking several trunk lines. It allowed them to dramatically increase average speeds, and to offer a range of services from the slower end that's no faster than our own trains, to semi-HSR level speeds. This was before they embarked on their HSR building separately. Engines are not the main factor affecting average speed in IR. The infrastructure is. It's no surprise Suresh Prabhu's primary focus of spending for his $130 billion investment plan is infrastructure and signaling.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 02 May 2016 18:26

Silchar to agartala bg passenger service started today

Jubiland crowds on engine waving lotus flags

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11213
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gagan » 02 May 2016 21:06

^^^
Just look at the Crowds !!! This was Nov last, when the Silchar-Guwahati train was started. Looks like the whole town turned up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKYQtESdmcg

sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 329
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby sohamn » 02 May 2016 23:17

Singha wrote:Pretty much any ir train at present can go as fast as rajdhani or shatabdi..its just these munnas get special clearance at every crossing and lesser stops.

Triple tracking will likely raise avg speeds of all trains by 25kmph as railway minister said

Of necessity many trains will have more stops and lower avg speed



Thats actually not quite true. Most trains can't actually go as fast as a Bhopal Shatabdi and because of the following reasons
a) ICF non a/c rakes are not rated to travel above 110 kmph
b) Lot of diesel engines like WDM2&3 series can't go above 120kmph with more than 18 coaches even if it wanted to.
c) Even WDP4D is only rated to travel at max 130 kmph
d) Most of the loco's in IR are co-co which are meant for heavy hauling & tractive effort not for top speed

Only few loco's are capable to do >=140kmph and that too if they are mated to a/c LHB coaches and these loco's are
WAP5, WAP4, WAP7, WDP4, WDP3A/B

member_29396
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby member_29396 » 03 May 2016 08:51

Haven't seen this mentioned here, all of the ABB (WAG, WAP) electric locos with the single red line are the ones which have been assembled or built abroad and the ones with the two red lines are built locally.

member_29396
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby member_29396 » 03 May 2016 08:52

Suraj wrote:Absolutely. One of the first things that the Chinese railways did during their 1990s modernization was triple and quad tracking several trunk lines. It allowed them to dramatically increase average speeds, and to offer a range of services from the slower end that's no faster than our own trains, to semi-HSR level speeds. This was before they embarked on their HSR building separately. Engines are not the main factor affecting average speed in IR. The infrastructure is. It's no surprise Suresh Prabhu's primary focus of spending for his $130 billion investment plan is infrastructure and signaling.

It's great that someone is finally taking the initiative to do this. Having additional tracks will help speed up trains and removal of bottlenecks which have long maligned Indian railways!

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 03 May 2016 09:20

anyone know the ORBAT of IR in terms of inventory of diesel and electric locos.

be interesting to know what % is WAP4,5,7 and WDP4

sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 329
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby sohamn » 03 May 2016 11:34

Singha wrote:anyone know the ORBAT of IR in terms of inventory of diesel and electric locos.

be interesting to know what % is WAP4,5,7 and WDP4



see -
http://24coaches.com/wdp-wdg-alco-emd-descriptions/
http://24coaches.com/indian-railways-wdm-series/
http://24coaches.com/ac-electric-locomo ... wam-class/
http://www.irfca.org/apps/locos/list

You may have to do some data transformation to get the numbers right.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 03 May 2016 16:25

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-2781339/

Railways’ ambitious Rs 2500 crore trainset project, a part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ initiative, suffered a major setback with none of the shortlisted bidders filing tenders. Today was the last day for submitting the bids.

kapilrdave
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10

Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby kapilrdave » 03 May 2016 18:09

Recently while my parents were travelling from Ahmedabad to Mum, someone complained to Suresh Prabhu on twitter that the mineral water salesmen were demanding rs.20 instead of its standard price 15. He tweeted nearby baroda station. When the train reached Surat (about 150km from baroda) some IR officials boarded the train, walked through the entire train along with the salesmen and made the salesmen rebate additional rs.5 to all the passengers who bought the water bottle.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests